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Irori's Champion: A build for inclusion in the guide to the builds thread. (Hopefully)


Advice

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So as some forumites might piece together, I've beeen working on a Champion of Irori build (henceforth CoI) for some time.

Here is what I have come up with:

Race: Aasimar

Humble Origins, a.k.a. The root of the lotus Level 1

Master Endless Spring
Male Aasimar Cleric (Theologian) 1
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)

The nuts and bolts:
Stats:
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 17

Alternate Racial Traits:
Immortal Spark
Scion of Humanity

Traits:
Quain Martial Artist
Wisdom in the Flesh (Acrobatics)

Feats:
Clr 1: Channel Smite

Gear
Bronze Gong

So I usually don't mock up a 1st level of a 20 level build, but this one needs some explaining: Basically, why cleric? It contributes literally nothing to entering the Champion of Irori PrC. (Still Mind/Smite Evil entry requirements, neither of which cleric provides)

The reasoning is as follows:

Why oh Why?:
1) Clerics have 3+cha mod channel energy uses/day. With the right item, (a brass gong channel focus, cheap at 100gp), a cleric of Irori can turn all these channel energy uses into ki points, which are a major conerstone of this build.

2) Clerics have channel energy, which qualifies them for channel smite. Channel smite is not a great feat (unless you fight a lot of undead), but it qualifies you for the Guided Hand feat, which is the only core pathfinder method for getting Wis to hit (apart from the sense monk archetype, which has its own difficulties).

3.) The Theologian archetype allows you to prep your domain spells in your regular spell slots at the cost of your second domain. In this case you can pick strength, and prep enlarge person in all your domain slots. At this level, you're using str to hit, so enlarge person is a boon, and at higher levels, you can use it to boost your monk damage.

P.s. If the stats look a bit high, they are. I'm basically using immortal spark and middle age to boost my mental stats while not worrying about my physical stats. Age doesn't change your stats in PFS, so you'll probably have to do some stat jiggering, just focus on Wis and Cha and have a decent Str, and you'll be fine.

Proper Foundations a.k.a. The Lotus Stem Lvl 5

Master Endless Spring
Male Aasimar Cleric (Theologian) 1 Monk 3 Paladin 1
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)

The nuts and bolts:
Stats:
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 18

Feats:
Clr 1: Channel Smite (1st lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Guided Hand (3rd lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Dodge (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes (Or Deflect Arrows) (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3: Crane Style (5th lvl)

Gear:
Bronze gong (1 uses)
Belt of giant strength +2 (4k)
Vest of armor +1 (custom armor boosting item in vest slot, same price. We need the bracer slot for something later) (1k)
Cloak of resistance +1 (1k)
Headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4k)

Discussion:

Mutterings and Ravings of a madman:
So nothing too earth shattering as of yet. You're basically a monk with the ability to smite evil 1/day which should get through some DR (but not help with damage much, I'm afraid.) Better things are yet to come.

Glorious Fruition, a.k.a. The Lotus Blossom

Master Endless Spring
Male Aasimar Champion of Irori 4 Cleric (Theologian) 1 Monk 3 Paladin 2
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)

The nuts and bolts:
Stats:
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 21, Cha 20

Feats:
Clr 1: Channel Smite (1st lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Guided Hand (3rd lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Dodge (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes (Or Deflect Arrows) (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3: Crane Style (5th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3/ CoI 2: Crane Wing (7th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 3: Osyluth Guile

Gear:
Bronze gong (1 uses)
Belt of giant strength +2 (4k)
Vest of armor +2 (custom armor boosting item in vest slot, same price. We need the bracer slot for something later) (4k)
Cloak of resistance +2 (4k)
Headband of mental prowess (Wis & Cha +2) (10k)
Monk's Robe (13k)
Bracers of the Avenging Knight (11.5k)
Ring of Ki Mastery (10k)

Discussions:

Finally!:
So huge things are happening here, just to run down the list:

1: You can smite basically all the time for +5 to hit and +9 to damage(Bracers of the Avenging Knight makes up for the levels in Cleric and Monk), so basically 2d6+13 damage per hit. How this works:

a.) The Champion of Irori lets you smite evil/chaotic beings and to activate smite evil/smite chaos for 2 ki points.

b.) If you put 2 ki points in a ring of ki mastery at the start of the day, that allows you to use ki abilities for 1 ki point less, ergo, you can smite evil/chaos for 1 ki point.

c.) From your monk + CoI levels you have 8 ki points. From your cleric channel energy, you can use the bronze gong to convert your 8 channel energy uses into 8 more ki points.

So 2 points into the ring at the start of the day (16-2=14), 14 uses of smite evil from the 14 ki points and 2 uses of smite evil granted from class levels, so 16 uses altogether. And if you're really desperate, you can use the two ki points in the ring for a final smite evil/chaos usage for a final total of 17 smite evil uses/day.

2: Your AC is quite good.

Breakdown:

10 (Base) + 2 (Armor Bonus) + 1 (Dodge bonus from dodge feat) + 8 (Wis + 3 from Monk levels) + 5 (Deflection bonus to AC from smite evil) + 4 (Fighting defensively with Crane style) + 5 (Dodge Bonus from Osyluth Guile) = 35 (39 if you're willing to use a ki point to boost AC.

I'll be back with the 11-20 advancement, but in the meantime, what do people think?

prototype00

Dark Archive

Wouldn't it be an extra 50% to have this Vest of Armor you're talking about? I'm pretty sure I remember a rule in crafting about that.


Well I did think that, so I had a look while I was drafting the character. Here is what the SRD has to say:

Quote:

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

But not one word on whether a particular special quality needed to go in a particular slot. So apparently if a magic item has only one special quality, it can go in any slot for the same price.

There is a chance I am wrong however, so if you can point me to where it does say it, my thanks to you.

prototype00


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Awesome! Dotting to review. I was just thinking about this PrC last night.


This is very interesting.

Have you thought of writing a guide for the Champion of Irori?


Harrison wrote:

This is very interesting.

Have you thought of writing a guide for the Champion of Irori?

Hmm, no I haven't. I haven't made a guide before, and really, I'm afraid I might not be very good at it. (And its only a PrC, so its a bit more limited in scope than an actual class, a guide might be a bit too much?)

prototype00


Further enlightenment a.k.a. The Lotus Blooms

Master Endless Spring
Male Aasimar Champion of Irori 9 Cleric (Theologian) 1 Monk 3 Paladin 2
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)

Nuts and Bolts:
Stats:
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 24, Cha 22

Feats:
Clr 1: Channel Smite (1st lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Guided Hand (3rd lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Dodge (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes (Or Deflect Arrows) (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3: Crane Style (5th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3/ CoI 2: Crane Wing (7th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 3: Osyluth Guile (9th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 5: Crane Riposte (11th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 7: Angelic Blood (13th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 9: Angelic Wings (15th lvl)

Gear:
Bronze gong (1 uses)
Belt of giant strength +4 (16k)
Vest of armor +5 (custom armor boosting item in vest slot, same price. We need the bracer slot for something later) (25k)
Cloak of resistance +5 (25k)
Headband of mental prowess (Wis & Cha +4) (40k)
Monk's Robe (13k)
Bracers of the Avenging Knight (11.5k)
Ring of Ki Mastery (10k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (18k)
+3 Allying Wyroot (3 ki points) Hanbo (36301 gp)

Total: 230901 gp, 9199gp to spend on expendables

Average damage: 2d8 + 3 (enhancement) + 15 (smite evil) + 4 (str) + 1 (trait)= 2d8 + 23

Attack Routine (when hasted and using a ki point): +30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20

Ki points/day: 13 (Lvls + Wis) + 9 (channel energy uses) = 22

3 smite evil attempts/day from levels, so 24 smite evil/chaos/day.

AC (against a single target): 48, 52 if you are willing to use a ki point. Things at your equivalent level CR will not be able to hit you. +2-+3 CR will have difficulty.

Discussions:

Okay, this is getting a bit ridiculous:
So as the levels advance, just keep racking up the bonuses. A couple of things to make life just that little bit better.

1.) You can now use a touch attack to hit things as a standard action. I recommend you leisurely walk up to dragons during the first round of combat, and autohit them for 2d8 + 38 points of damage before things start getting rowdy.

2.) The Allying Wyroot Hanbo. This weapon will help you out in two ways:

a: The allying property will allow you to have enhanced unarmed strikes for less than the cost of an equivalent +3 amulet of mighty fists, and also frees up the amulet slot for more AC boosting items.

b: A Wyroot item will absorb ki points on a critical hit. Champions of Irori get an attack of opportunity whenever an opponent confirms a critical threat on them or an ally with their perfect opening ability (they have to be adjacent to the enemy), which is an automatic critical threat if it hits. Basically, use your Wyroot hanbo to confirm the crit, and you've got extra ki points!

3.) You know that critical threat thing, that happens before your opponent actually does damage to you. So basically here is what happens:

Step 1: Enemy rolls a crit against you and confirms it
Step 2: You deflect the attack with crane wing
Step 3: Attack of opportunity triggered by perfect opening ability (Automatic crit threat if it hits)
Step 4: Attack of opportunity triggered by Crane Riposte

So that is two attack of opportunity whenever an enemy crits you, with one of them likely to be a critical hit (and smite damage multiplies on a critical hit doesn't it?). And you take no damage.

Granted, I just thought of this, but it looks solid. I'm sure people will disabuse me if it is wrong.

4.) Feats are free after crane riposte at 11th lvl. Really. Take whatever you like. Monastic legacy is a good one (even better if CoI levels count as "Non monk levels" for the purpose of Monastic legacy). Angel blood and Angel Wings give you innate flight. Also nice. Just go wild.

Bonus points for readers, suggest to me good feats to take after lvl 11!

So what do people think?

prototype00

Dark Archive

You'd still only get one AoO because of your low Dexterity.


Seranov wrote:
You'd still only get one AoO because of your low Dexterity.

Ah, well caught. I can switch the 12 in con to a 12 in dex and with combat reflexes this character will have 2 AoOs, more than enough to respond to one critical hit/round (which hopefully is all he has to face).

Or you could switch the belt of giant str +4 for a belt of physical perfection +2 dex +2 str, for a loss in total damage but a gain in the AC department as well as extra AoOs.

prototype00


So just figured out the perfect feats to fill in the last four feat slots. Skill Focus (Survival), Eldritich heritage and its improved and greater versions (Orc). You can't argue with +12 str and large size. (Ironically this makes my strength higher than my wisdom, so guided hand is useless. However the growth power isn't continuous, and when it is not active, my wisdom is higher).

Some reskinning will probably be needed, maybe instead of becoming a great orc warlord, this character is growing to become like a Solar ancestor?

Will post build tomorrow.

prototype00


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Nonbeing a.k.a. There is no Lotus

Master Endless Spring Lvl 20
Male Aasimar Champion of Irori 10 Cleric (Theologian) 1 Monk 3 Paladin 6
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)

Nuts and Bolts:
Stats (When Power of Giants is invoked) :
Str 32, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 28, Cha 24

Feats:
Clr 1: Channel Smite (1st lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Guided Hand (3rd lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Dodge (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes (Or Deflect Arrows) (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3: Crane Style (5th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3/ CoI 2: Crane Wing (7th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 3: Osyluth Guile (9th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 5: Crane Riposte (11th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 7: Skill Focus (Survival) (13th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 9: Eldritch Heritage (Orc) (15th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 3/ Mnk 3/ CoI 10: Improved Eldritch Heritage(Orc) (17th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 5/ Mnk 3/ CoI 10: Greater Eldritch Heritage(Orc) (17th lvl)

Gear

Boots of speed (10 rounds/day)
Truesight goggles
Bronze gong
+5 Allying Wyroot (3 life points) Hanbo
Amulet of natural armor +5
Belt of physical perfection +6
Bracers of the avenging knight
Cloak of resistance +5
Headband of mental prowess (Wis & Cha +6)
Ioun stone (dusty rose prism)
Ioun stone (pale green prism)
Monk's robe
Ring of freedom of movement
Ring of ki mastery
Vest of armor +8

Gear Value 716701gp, 163399gp leftover for consumables (Spend a bit of that to make my headband of mental prowes into a headband or aerial agility fly at will when I can figure out the formula for it.)

Attack Routine (Hasted and ki point spent): +38/+38/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23

Damage: 3d8 + 11 (str) + 5 (enhancement) + 20 (Smite) + 1 (Trait)= 3d8 + 37

AC: 56, 60 when using a ki point
CMD: 70, 72 vs grapple, trip and reposition

Saves:
Fort: 33
Ref: 27
Will: 37

Discussion:

Wow, what to say?:
Lets start with the weaknesses. This character has a low reflex save, in that he doesn't autosave against a great Wyrm Gold Dragon's breath weapon (has to roll a 6, 5 if he isn't enlarged). Also, against non evil/non chaotic things, a lot less powerful. But everything else, can't hit him, can't affect him and he can literally pound anything up to CR +5 (or possibly higher, I haven't checked yet) into dust, solo.

There you have it, all 20 levels of Irori's Champion. I think he's viable at all levels (but much moreso after 5). But please offer your comments.

prototype00


Can you explain how you interpret the description of the bronze gong to convert uses of Channel Energy into ki points? I'm not getting where you see that.

Bronze Gong

Source Pathfinder Player Companion: Faiths of Balance

When activated, this small masterwork metal gong remains charged with power for 8 hours. When the gong is struck softly, it emits a clear and pleasing tone that instantly focuses the striker’s thoughts and mental energy. If the creature striking the gong has a ki pool and worships Irori, she regains 1 ki point. This use expends the power within the gong.


To activate the gong you use channel energy (its in the religion book), so out of combat you can use up your channel pool to refill your ki pool.

Scarab Sages

Dotting


Just popped in to gauge the activity, the build is mostly done, though I always appreciate suggestions (or comments on whether the build is actually a good one, e.t.c.)

I'm personally quite pleased with it.

prototype00


i haven't gone trough all the numbers but
1) Stats seems high - would this build work with a 15 point buy?
2) Any room of Noble Scion (cha to initiativ)
3) Instead of the last paladin lvls - perhaps a dip into Oracle of lore for more cha synergy
4) Hanbo? Source?

Edit: added post 4


Bigtuna wrote:

i haven't gone trough all the numbers but

1) Stats seems high - would this build work with a 15 point buy?

With 15 point buy and no usage of the immortal spark extra points, you start off with stats: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16 and Cha 15. Not as good, but still doable.

Quote:
2) Any room of Noble Scion (cha to initiativ)

The requirement that it be a 1st level feat really hurts my desire to take it. This character needs all the feats it can get at early levels.

Quote:
3) Instead of the last paladin lvls - perhaps a dip into Oracle of lore for more cha synergy

Sure, its a net gain of +4 AC at the cost of +1 BaB and +1 damage (paladin levels and smite)

Quote:

4) Hanbo? Source?

Edit: added post 4

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/hanbo

Light, simple, 1d6 bludgeoning, monk, trip, looks like a walking stick. Comes from adventurer's armory.

prototype00


5) Osyluth Guile - do you need the extra AC at this point?

4) - ah Adventurer's Armory google FTW.


Bigtuna wrote:
5) Osyluth Guile - do you need the extra AC at this point?

I can still be hit by CR 25 creatures (if the tarrasque rolls a 19 or 20)! Without Osyluth guile, he would be hitting on a 12! Unthinkable, my dear sir.

(Of course if I spend one of my many ki points on AC, the tarrasque is only going to be hitting on a 20 in the prior case and a 16 in the latter.)

prototype00


I guess the plan is to have cratures only hit you with a natural 20 + crane style... So Osyluth Guile it is.

Monk - is it vanilia monk or some archetype? master of many styles?

And impressive feel like trying a CoI... Not a fan of the LG - but the price we pay to optimize....


Are Aasimar alternate racial traits legal for PFS?


Quote:
Monk - is it vanilia monk or some archetype? master of many styles?

The various archetypes didn't help out much. Anything that dumped flurry was straight out (I wanted those extra attacks), of those left I didn't have enough monk levels to make most worthwhile.

I suppose I could have taken Monk of the Lotus to get touch of serenity, but with this character's focus on damage, that seemed a bit self defeating.

Quote:
Are Aasimar alternate racial traits legal for PFS?

They are, but aging effects are't. So you can't use the immortal spark trick for no penalty stat gain (though you could just buy one of those anti-aging ioun stones if you're high level enough).

Its a minor inconvenience.

prototype00


A few questions!
Our GM is strongly against weird/cheesy combinations, so:
The cleric/gong thing is a no-go. I'd like to stick with just Monk/Paladin.
How would you distribute 20 points? Aasimar *might* not be an option, if not I'd go with Human. We can't roll older age brackets either, so mental stats are staying where they are.

Any other advice?


igotsmeakabob11 wrote:

A few questions!

Our GM is strongly against weird/cheesy combinations, so:
The cleric/gong thing is a no-go. I'd like to stick with just Monk/Paladin.

A level of cleric is a "weird and cheesy" combination? All right then. Its half your ki points for most of your career so I'm not recommending not taking it.

Quote:
How would you distribute 20 points? Aasimar *might* not be an option, if not I'd go with Human. We can't roll older age brackets either, so mental stats are staying where they are.

The same organization as before, just with fewer points, prioritize Cha and Wis (Wis over cha in this case presumably) and then everything else can go into Str and Con.

Quote:
Any other advice?

If you want to get your damage up, try taking improved eldritch heritage (orc) earlier. By lvl 15 you could havea +4 inherent bonus to str, which stacks with an enhancement bonus.

prototype00


You could go hosptiliar paladin 4 to pick up channeling without the need for cleric or using up your lay on hands.


Problem being that I need channeling for the channel smite and guided hand feats, so its not conducive to get it even later. (If I could only get channel smite at 5th level, then guided hand I would only be able to get at 7th lvl!)

prototype00


True i was more thinking of the guy who's GM won't let him cleric dip :). I'm not a huge fan of what people call cheese builds but i would accept a young cleric who found his path was better served as a paladin rather than a normal cleric.


Bertious wrote:
True i was more thinking of the guy who's GM won't let him cleric dip :). I'm not a huge fan of what people call cheese builds but i would accept a young cleric who found his path was better served as a paladin rather than a normal cleric.

Well, he'd be a cleric that found his way to being a paladin who found his way to being a monk... doesn't fly very well with the GM. Personally, I'd like to start *as* a monk, even if I were to dip into Cleric later.

edit: Whoops, forgot to mention that the only books allowed are the core ones (Core, APG, UltMag, etc), that includes equipment; the gong is out either way, since it's from a different book. The GM is allowing the PrC however.


igotsmeakabob11 wrote:
Bertious wrote:
True i was more thinking of the guy who's GM won't let him cleric dip :). I'm not a huge fan of what people call cheese builds but i would accept a young cleric who found his path was better served as a paladin rather than a normal cleric.
Well, he'd be a cleric that found his way to being a paladin who found his way to being a monk... doesn't fly very well with the GM. Personally, I'd like to start *as* a monk.

A Cleric finding his way into being a monk is pretty standard a lot of monk s preach and are incredibly devout. A paladin is a divine champion of virtue and I couldn't imagine who would better encapsulate the virtues of Irori than a devout Monk/Cleric.


Wind Chime wrote:
igotsmeakabob11 wrote:
Bertious wrote:
True i was more thinking of the guy who's GM won't let him cleric dip :). I'm not a huge fan of what people call cheese builds but i would accept a young cleric who found his path was better served as a paladin rather than a normal cleric.
Well, he'd be a cleric that found his way to being a paladin who found his way to being a monk... doesn't fly very well with the GM. Personally, I'd like to start *as* a monk.
A Cleric finding his way into being a monk is pretty standard a lot of monk s preach and are incredibly devout. A paladin is a divine champion of virtue and I couldn't imagine who would better encapsulate the virtues of Irori than a devout Monk/Cleric.

I can see your point, yes. I found that the bronze gong wasn't in a core book anyway, so it's a moot point :/


Paladins of Irori, and monk - seems to blend naturally and Irori is a god sure he has a cleric. Don't see how this combo shouldn't mix.
Your not trying to be a SyntesitstX/paladin2/oracle of Lore1/Ninja2 (which has a certain cha synergy, but not so much natural bland...


1) 15 point buy - Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10 8 a little less int - if I count correctly - but no biggie)

2) low level surviavbility - Couldn't you use a fullplate a while if you have 15 point buy you don't lose dex bonus, lose some movement (and fast movement later) but gain a higher AC (better than the monks Ac+wis bonus to AC). Once crane wing kicks in you can afford the Ac drop, you can sell the fullplate.
Or would that stop some other ability I'm missing?

3) You are using unarmed strike - so why not use a shield? And Crusader Achetype to gain shield focus for another +1 AC.
Besides a cleric crusader that decides to make the full step into paladin - seems right

4) Paladin - how about Hospitaler4 (which you could take earliere)
You lose a smite at lvl 4 - but gain channel energy 3+cha times a day - which can be used with gong -> ki - > smite
the lost smite will be more than repaid with the extra smites from channeling.
lay on hand conveted to channeling -> smire (with 4 lvls paladin = 4+cha/2 compared to 3+cha - just better.


5) If you take the paladin lvls 3 and 4 at lvl 10 and 11 (once you have the ki pool) You get... several smites and should be able to smite all day.
Again not sure about the cost in other powers...


Alright, I'm getting an idea of where I want to go with this.

str 14 dex 10 con 10 int 10 wis 16 cha 14 - The con sacrifice hurts, should I drop wisdom to 15 to bump it up?

traits: Finding Haleen campaign trait gives +1skill+1hp per level of favored class on top of your normal favored class bonus, think i should go +1/4 ki or +1 hitpoint?
Wisdom in the Flesh for acrobatics

If I get Aasimar sweet, but I'll assume human here. the +2 stat into wisdom (I assume?)

monk 1: dodge, crane style, ???
monk 1/paladin 1
monk 2/paladin 1
monk 2/paladin 2: +1wis
monk 3/paladin 2

As I write this I'm seeing the Cleric appeal for Guided Hand, but is it worth it without access to the Bronze Gong since it's not core? The feat acquisitions work better that way as well...


If you don't want to go cleric for guided hand, you can always take the sensei archetype and take the TWF feat tree instead (you lose flurry of blows, so you replace it with the TWF tree, CoI is full BaB anyway, so you're not losing much).

Or you could focus on strength and cha like a paladin but have a respectable wis. That works too (fewer ki points).

The bronze gong is nice to have, but what is essential for this build is the ring of ki mastery. Are you going to be able to buy one of those eventually?

prototype00


That's out of Ultimate Equipment, should be OK.

I notice you never took Power Attack, any particular reason?


Favored class - not worth using a trait for. You'll have 3 monk levels and perhaps 4 paladin levels - and you don't get favored class bonus for prestige classes. So favored class is something you give up to become a CoI.

Traits. Mizu Ki - something - gives +1 dam on unamrmed strike and Quain something both regional - same effect - pick one.
And +2 ini - dex isn't your strenght and if you can't spare a feat for noble scion you'll want it.

Or wisdom of the flesh - acrobatic - not a bad choise...


I figured even with 4 monk levels it'd be worth it, 4 hp & 4 skill points for a trait?

If I wanted to make the most out of Finding Haleen I could go Half Elf instead, allows two classes to be favored classes, but it's probably not worth it just to build around a trait, losing that extra feat and skill point from human.


igotsmeakabob11 wrote:

That's out of Ultimate Equipment, should be OK.

I notice you never took Power Attack, any particular reason?

No space. Couldn't take it while I was consolidating AC, and then after that eldritch heritage (Orc) was much better.

prototype00


I'm avoiding that orc eldritch heritage for RP reasons. I'm more going for optimizing the character concept that I have in my head than building something that's as crunchy as it can be :)


Hello prototype00,

I really like the build that you have put together - I have a straight question, maybe a basic one.

Is it possible to take the trait Wisdom in the Flesh (Acrobatics) at first level? Don't you need to be a Follower of Irori for that one?

Cheers.

The Exchange

Being a 'follower of Irori' is just refering to your character chosing to worship the god Irori, not a specific Class or anything.

Dark Archive

Wisdom in the Flesh is a trait, so I suppose technically you can take it after 1st level, if you take the Extra Traits feat.

You MUST worship Irori to take it, though. Which is sort of the point, if you intend to take levels in the Champion of Irori PrC.


prototype00 wrote:


Or you could focus on strength and cha like a paladin but have a respectable wis. That works too (fewer ki points).

prototype00

How would you recommend going about this, stat-wise, for a human? How to buff wisdom as well as strength, since it would no longer be the primary stat but wisdom is still a heavy + to your AC as a monk, besides the benefits of Crane style and much later Osyluth Guile (which isn't something to rely on considering all the bonuses the CoI gets for fighting many enemies at once).

Thanks for all the help, by the way.


prototype00 wrote:
There you have it, all 20 levels of Irori's Champion. I think he's viable at all levels (but much moreso after 5). But please offer your comments.

All he gets at lvl 5 is crane style... Which is just -2 to hit, and a bette AC... What makes him work here?

As I see it the build finally start of at lvl 7 when you get the Ki pool. Then you have channel energy that gives you Ki that gives you smites/extra attacks...
This is what the build is all about.
You also get crane wing, which is pretty awesome. But the first 6 levels you are just a guy with good saves, and a decent AC (if you either have good stats or picked shield + fullplate)
- but damn? Low str, and 1d6 unarmed strikes, 1 smite/day...
- To hit (-2 flurry, -2 Crane style -1 bab) or (-2 bab -2 crane style if not using flurry)...
Lvl 7 is gonna be a big deal...


Bigtuna wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
There you have it, all 20 levels of Irori's Champion. I think he's viable at all levels (but much moreso after 5). But please offer your comments.

All he gets at lvl 5 is crane style... Which is just -2 to hit, and a bette AC... What makes him work here?

As I see it the build finally start of at lvl 7 when you get the Ki pool. Then you have channel energy that gives you Ki that gives you smites/extra attacks...
This is what the build is all about.
You also get crane wing, which is pretty awesome. But the first 6 levels you are just a guy with good saves, and a decent AC (if you either have good stats or picked shield + fullplate)
- but damn? Low str, and 1d6 unarmed strikes, 1 smite/day...
- To hit (-2 flurry, -2 Crane style -1 bab) or (-2 bab -2 crane style if not using flurry)...
Lvl 7 is gonna be a big deal...

All quite true. I recommend playing as your basic cleric for those levels, not a front line combatant (granted he doesn't get higher than lvl 1 spells). Use enlarge person wisely to boost strength and damage, turtle when needed with crane style.

It doesn't take too long for the build to bloom though, and yeah, I don't see any other better route to CoI do you? Its always going to be quite schizophrenics, paladin and monk.

prototype00


Well a better route..
How about starting as a paladin - go for str over wis - at least until you get a monk Ac bonus (inkl wis) on 10+. You get a better damage output early - and later you seem to be changing to be str based with eldrich heritage anyway.
You loose some Ki point - but becomes less MAD. And enought Cha you end up with plenty of channel energy (from both Paladin 4 and cleric) to fuel your Smites.

Don't know if it's better - but you could then drop guided hand a add power attack or noble scion


Its not a bad strategy (and I have advocated it as an alternative in the past).

Two caveats:

Paladin channel energy gets you nothing. They don't actually have a pool for that. They convert lay on hand uses to it. Completely useless.

Eldritch heritage stuff is very late game, lvl 15. I could try a str build and see if I can stuff it in earlier, however (maybe that wouldn't make for a bad character).

prototype00


"When a hospitaler reaches 4th level, she gains the ability to channel positive energy as a cleric equal to her paladin level –3. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Using this ability does not expend uses of lay on hands, as it does with other paladins."

It looks like they don't touch LoH for it, it's a separate pool.


- yes hospitaler paladin 4 - you get 2 pools - so every increase in cha gives you +1 to hit/AC /with smite) and 2 smite attempts (with gong, ki pool, and ki ring). Every Wis gives you +1 Ac and +1 ki and thus smite.

And if you don\t go nuts with wis you can just wear a full plate...

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