Revisiting the archer shooting speed debate


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 58 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I've posted other links in the past with other modern archers who have been able to shoot extremely fast and accurately. The previous best I have seen is a guy who has recreated the ancient Mongol raider technique and was able to shoot six arrows from a running horse and deliver potentially lethal arrows to human dummies at a rate of slightly more than one arrow per second.

Now there's this guy, who shows how to shoot ten arrows accurately, with lethal force, in less than five seconds.

He demonstrates his arrows penetrating chain mail armor easily.


Your link heads back to this thread. I do not think that was your intent.

- Gauss


Sorry, I had the "embed" url instead of the direct link. Or I think that's what I did. It seems to work now.

Liberty's Edge

Even if not possible realistically, D&D chars are already superhuman, why should this be an issue?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Coridan wrote:
Even if not possible realistically, D&D chars are already superhuman, why should this be an issue?

1. Because some gamers are enthusiastic about their characters and enjoy the extension of verisimilitude by figuring out physical means for their characters to do what their abilities say they can?

2. Because some gamers are enthusiastic about their pasttime and enjoy viewing and discussing anything that bears a relationship to key aspects of the game?

3. Because some gamers want to use their idea of physical limitations in real life as a means to reduce what they believe to be overpowered options in game?

4. Becuase some gamers are bored and just like to argue?

I'm sure I could come up with a dozen more reasons why this should be an issue.

But beyond all that, isn't that one friggin' cool video?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Even if not possible realistically, D&D chars are already superhuman, why should this be an issue?

1. Because some gamers are enthusiastic about their characters and enjoy the extension of verisimilitude by figuring out physical means for their characters to do what their abilities say they can?

2. Because some gamers are enthusiastic about their pasttime and enjoy viewing and discussing anything that bears a relationship to key aspects of the game?

3. Because some gamers want to use their idea of physical limitations in real life as a means to reduce what they believe to be overpowered options in game?

4. Becuase some gamers are bored and just like to argue?

I'm sure I could come up with a dozen more reasons why this should be an issue.

But beyond all that, isn't that one friggin' cool video?

I love it. Thank you for sharing. The part where he shoots ten arrows along side of other people doing the same is a really good example of how fast you can shoot arrows as you levelfrom 1-12 or so.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I watched this video last week. I was shaking my head in amazement. Guy's a goddamn machine gun.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1) how many arrows can he hold in his hands?

2) how long does it take to put the arrows back in his hand after he shoots them all?

3) A simple magic bow that teleports an arrow to the string already nocked would duplicate what he is doing.

4) He's not using a full draw, AND he's using a short bow. Light poundage and definitely going to be limits on range. How do you work that?

5) It's still pretty cool. But I sincerely doubt he's going to punch through plate armor like a full longbow shot, and I'm betting sturdy leather would stop most of his shots.

In the crusades, the armor of the crusaders used to stop dozens of enemy arrows...they'd just stick in the leathers under their chain mail and be impotent. I'm betting his arrows would just do the same.

So, what you've got is a form of rapid fire with substantial penalties to hit and penalties to range, and probably no strength bonus to damage.

==+Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

And I can swing more than once in 6 seconds.

Who cares.


PFF. Anybody can shoot ten arrows a round. Now let's see him try to fire off ten shots from a flintlock musket! That would be something special.


Ok that was fairly impressive. I am curious of his draw weight but he did fire at the much longer range too (60m + or 120ft) so the bow has to have at least some power to it.

Aelryinth: Arrows had a hard time punching thru full plate period. Even the welsh longbow had issues with it.

And in other news...


He showed his arrows punching through chain mail.

Unless it's some sort of video photoshop prank, it looks pretty legit to me.

Scarab Sages

1 dude. With 3 years training.

average joe? not so much.

Dark Archive

I wanted to clean my ears out with battery acid after listening to that narrator.

The guy is pretty good.

Put a charging grizzly/Lion/Tiger in front of him and lets see what he does. The only real way to test the theory under real combat conditions.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:
1) how many arrows can he hold in his hands?

The most he showed on the video was 11.

Aelryinth wrote:
2) how long does it take to put the arrows back in his hand after he shoots them all?

They show him draw 10 at 1:34 in the video, and the first arrow shoots at 1:36, but it's really closer to 1.5 seconds because it's the latter half 34 and almost immediately on hitting 36.

Aelryinth wrote:
4) He's not using a full draw, AND he's using a short bow. Light poundage and definitely going to be limits on range. How do you work that?

He shoots off three arrows at a target 69 meters distant at one point, which is about ~225 feet, or about 45 squares--much farther than any battlemap is likely to reach.

I also want to point out that you have no idea what poundage his draw is--you're only assuming it's light because he's so fast.

And besides that, if it is a light draw, it's ok, because he doesn't have 18 Strength. If he can do that with a draw proportional to his normal human strength (certainly no more than 12 or so), why could someone with high strength not duplicate the speed with a heavier draw bow?

Aelryinth wrote:
5) It's still pretty cool. But I sincerely doubt he's going to punch through plate armor like a full longbow shot, and I'm betting sturdy leather would stop most of his shots.

He punches through Chainmail in the video, and that was even with blunt arrows.

Also note that he's not just pulling this technique out of his ass to show off. He's doing it because it's the only way to duplicate actual feats of archery from history. Historical figures, in wars, shot arrows this fast--it was obviously effective or they wouldn't have done it. War tends to force that issue.

I mean, seriously, why would Saracen archers do this if it couldn't punch through armor? They were the ones fighting the Crusaders you were talking about, after all.

He figured it out--it's awesome. Why make excuses about it?

And damn, yeah, this is among the coolest things I've seen lately.


bigkilla wrote:
Put a charging grizzly/Lion/Tiger in front of him and lets see what he does. The only real way to test the theory under real combat conditions.

I'd really like to see this video :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
bigkilla wrote:

I wanted to clean my ears out with battery acid after listening to that narrator.

The guy is pretty good.

Put a charging grizzly/Lion/Tiger in front of him and lets see what he does. The only real way to test the theory under real combat conditions.

The voice is the standard Male microsoft voice (I think) because the guy didn't speak English.

Concerning the whole charging beast thing remember the biggest part of combat training is drills to be able to stay calm and respond to a situation like that. This guy is technique training not combat training. Now let him use those techniques training alongside combat training then he would have a good chance (and would be similar to the whole antique military training he is trying to emulate).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This is so very, very... very awesome.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Much of the knowledge about a wide range of historical weapons has been lost, and recreating the styles and techniques these people used is difficult. I'm always amazed when the efficiency of these weapons is demonstrated. It makes you wonder how much oral knowledge and tradition has been lost throughout the ages because no one ever thought to commit it to paper (or those papers didn't survive).

With the standard disclaimer that Pathfinder is a game and not a simulation, it's still interesting to take a look at what this guy is actually doing and how that would be modeled in Pathfinder. As a general rule, I regard real-life people as 1st-4th level characters with only NPC classes. Given those restrictions, you wouldn't be able to make anything close to this guy. Perhaps the most amazing segment from this perpsective is 1:34 through 1:42. This is a little over 1 round, in which time he draws his arrows, moves his speed, and fires 9 shots. If we deduct two shots to compensate for going over the normal 1-round time frame, this still represents 7 shots as a standard action. He may well be taking a sizeable attack penalty for doing this, but it's a rate of fire that simply isn't allowed on a standard action.

Quote:
And I can swing more than once in 6 seconds.

When it comes to swinging a sword in Pathfinder, one "attack" should not be viewed as one swing; it instead represents maneuvering and attempted strikes that result in one good opportunity for a blow. This isn't perfect, and the visualization breaks down against helpless targets or inanimate objects (at which point you're less "fighting" and more just "beating"), but it works fairly well as an abstraction for a guy in a chaotic melee. This doesn't work for archery, where the representation is explicitly literal.


Bomanz wrote:

1 dude. With 3 years training.

average joe? not so much.

Human, Self-Taught Ages wrote:
+1d6 years, 16-21
Classes this correlates with wrote:
This category includes bards, cavaliers, fighters, gunslingers, paladins, rangers, summoners, and witches.

Yah totes different

Ones in bold are the ones likely to shoot a bow.

Also, where did you get the idea that PCs are average joes?


Rynjin wrote:
Also, where did you get the idea that PCs are average joes?

If they don't want to be an average joe, why aren't they playing a wizard?


I was very pleased recently, I have just taken up archery a few months ago, and I got an accurate and strong shot off with a 45 lb compound in 2 seconds. Calm, put the arrow on, back, shoot, let your mind aim, don't stress about the aiming like some fussy old grandma. So happy. I can do two in about five seconds. I will improve further, having only just begun.

Some of the experienced fellows I train with, they take over ten seconds for a shot. I thought, why wait? Why not shoot accurately and fast?

:D


Lord Phrofet wrote:

Ok that was fairly impressive. I am curious of his draw weight but he did fire at the much longer range too (60m + or 120ft) so the bow has to have at least some power to it.

Aelryinth: Arrows had a hard time punching thru full plate period. Even the welsh longbow had issues with it.

And in other news...

The end of the video has some info, he is using a Korean kaya bow at 30-35 lbs. Pretty light, but you can kill someone if you have a nice broadhead on those arrows. Humans aren't invincible, you don't need 100 to kill a person. Can take goats with 30, humans are not that bigger than goats and we die if our vitals are shredded. You can take bear with 45 and the right heads.

As for armour, some good points on the crusaders and the merits of armour. Chainmail isn't great against arrows, it is more about stopping slashing. Lamellar or heavy plate is better for arrows.

On longbows and plate, they didn't always go through plate either, even if they were high power shots. Gothic plate, fluted armour could deflect shots away. What messes up knights is the killing of their horses and some getting through on the less protected parts of the body.


Lord Phrofet wrote:
bigkilla wrote:

I wanted to clean my ears out with battery acid after listening to that narrator.

The guy is pretty good.

Put a charging grizzly/Lion/Tiger in front of him and lets see what he does. The only real way to test the theory under real combat conditions.

The voice is the standard Male microsoft voice (I think) because the guy didn't speak English.

Concerning the whole charging beast thing remember the biggest part of combat training is drills to be able to stay calm and respond to a situation like that. This guy is technique training not combat training. Now let him use those techniques training alongside combat training then he would have a good chance (and would be similar to the whole antique military training he is trying to emulate).

The guy is great with a bow, but someone who is great with a kite shield could really frustrate those fast shots.


Dasrak wrote:

Much of the knowledge about a wide range of historical weapons has been lost, and recreating the styles and techniques these people used is difficult. I'm always amazed when the efficiency of these weapons is demonstrated. It makes you wonder how much oral knowledge and tradition has been lost throughout the ages because no one ever thought to commit it to paper (or those papers didn't survive).

With the standard disclaimer that Pathfinder is a game and not a simulation, it's still interesting to take a look at what this guy is actually doing and how that would be modeled in Pathfinder. As a general rule, I regard real-life people as 1st-4th level characters with only NPC classes. Given those restrictions, you wouldn't be able to make anything close to this guy. Perhaps the most amazing segment from this perpsective is 1:34 through 1:42. This is a little over 1 round, in which time he draws his arrows, moves his speed, and fires 9 shots. If we deduct two shots to compensate for going over the normal 1-round time frame, this still represents 7 shots as a standard action. He may well be taking a sizeable attack penalty for doing this, but it's a rate of fire that simply isn't allowed on a standard action.

Quote:
And I can swing more than once in 6 seconds.
When it comes to swinging a sword in Pathfinder, one "attack" should not be viewed as one swing; it instead represents maneuvering and attempted strikes that result in one good opportunity for a blow. This isn't perfect, and the visualization breaks down against helpless targets or inanimate objects (at which point you're less "fighting" and more just "beating"), but it works fairly well as an abstraction for a guy in a chaotic melee. This doesn't work for archery, where the representation is explicitly literal.

Good points on sword swinging, archery aside for a point on melee, I actually like how 3-pathfinder does it through bab. Beginners swing more than once, but there is a lot of wasted swings, waiting, hesitation, that sort of thing. Once you get the levels and bab, you are being more effective in the time you have and thus you can score more hits, do more damage and kill more foes.

Whether it is kickboxing or swordwork (or another martial art), as you get better you can get off more effective combos. Not just the jab, wait, jab, wait, big swing of a beginner, but instead the jab, hook, straight, uppercut and kick! All of them hitting and hurting (if it goes well).

In a round of cutting or chopping, bab incresing with level can represent a change. What are swipes, what are good cuts, what is effective? As you level you get better and better at making near perfect cuts (to use blades as an example) and utterly rendering a target so very dead because their body just ate a sword over and over from many new mouths.

Liberty's Edge

Horbagh wrote:
PFF. Anybody can shoot ten arrows a round. Now let's see him try to fire off ten shots from a flintlock musket! That would be something special.

Don't get me started...so frustrated that they didn't make gunslingers the only class that could do this, and having that as the primary class feature...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I was very pleased recently, I have just taken up archery a few months ago, and I got an accurate and strong shot off with a 45 lb compound in 2 seconds. Calm, put the arrow on, back, shoot, let your mind aim, don't stress about the aiming like some fussy old grandma. So happy. I can do two in about five seconds. I will improve further, having only just begun.

Some of the experienced fellows I train with, they take over ten seconds for a shot. I thought, why wait? Why not shoot accurately and fast?

:D

As the saying goes, you can't miss fast enough to win. Better to shoot slowly and hit if you can't shoot quickly and hit.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Saracens used short bows and quick fire because they fought in a very hot part of the world where the armor was usually very light leather and silk or cotton. Even a light poundage bow would go through silk.

Chain mail is made of rings. Rings don't stop piercing attacks well, and arrows are piercing. Underneath that chain mail is generally thick, stiff leather boiled in wax. As I noted, Crusaders were infamous among their Arab opponents for literally getting stuck full of dozens of arrows and not being impeded int he slightest...the arrows couldn't penetrate the leather underneath the chain to do anything, and the chain mail stopped the slashing scimitars. Crusader knights could rout Saracen and Arab forces several times their size because the enemy found it very hard to actually hurt them.

So, yes, you could use this technique on unarmored humans and likely do some harm. A chain armored human in leather? Esp with a shield? You're likely not going to even slow down unless you get really lucky.

And shooting a light arrow 65 yards is not a test of power or penetration. The reason why longbows were feared is because they were effective...ditto crossbows, regardless of the rate of fire. Tons of arrows that don't do much is just a waste of arrows. Armies ran through the black rain of arrow fire all the time, with minimal casualties.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If I were to institute this style, I'd probably write it up so:

Snap Shooting:

You shoot your short bow without a full draw and aim with multiple arrows in hand in order to increase your rate of fire.
Your may use Manyshot, but each shot is considered a seperate shot, instead of all at once.
Your range is limited to one range increment.
You suffer a -2 TH penalty to all shots.
You gain no strength (or other ability score), precision damage, or deadly aim bonus on any of your shots.
This technique cannot be done with a long bow or crossbow of any kind.

Does that sum it up nicely? Finely some love for the short bow.

Alternatively, just double the number of iteratives, the first shot is at -2, and every iterative after that is at a cumulative -2, instead of -5.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

If I were to institute this style, I'd probably write it up so:

Snap Shooting:

You shoot your short bow without a full draw and aim with multiple arrows in hand in order to increase your rate of fire.
Your may use Manyshot, but each shot is considered a seperate shot, instead of all at once.
Your range is limited to one range increment.
You suffer a -2 TH penalty to all shots.
You gain no strength (or other ability score), precision damage, or deadly aim bonus on any of your shots.
This technique cannot be done with a long bow or crossbow of any kind.

Does that sum it up nicely? Finely some love for the short bow.

Alternatively, just double the number of iteratives, the first shot is at -2, and every iterative after that is at a cumulative -2, instead of -5.

==Aelryinth

I don't understand your write up. This guy is matching the actual speed that archers in Pathfinder currently shoot. Why would you write up a totally new system to mimic him when the implication is that this is how Pathfinder archers already do it.


I've got an archery coach that despises snap shooting. This guy takes 10-20 seconds for a shot, and I can do the close stuff in a few seconds per shot. I am using a more powerful bow than the one in the vid, but shooting fast isn't a really weak shot necessarily, or without penetration. There as far as I can ascertain, is a flow and a rhythm, and while you might not pull as far back as a slow shooter or hold it, your shots aren't weak when they are perfect because you know at the exact point when you need to release. You can feel it, you don't have to hold it.

It doesn't have to look good and menacing with your fully drawn bow, because you have already done the actions in your head and quickly with your hands, and you are on to the next shot.

A friend of mine suggests quite sensibly that the slow shooters and their resistance to snap shooting or historical shooting is because of the archery common in tournament shooting. Very slow, very methodical, high tech, aim it all up, release when it is perfect. Some of these will leave that behind and then go shoot more traditional bows, but they still shoot the same way.

Course a little Saracen/Mongol/Hun/Magyar/Scythian guy could accurately release who knows how many arrows in the time of that one "tournament" shot. One is basically training to spam arrows (11 before 1 hits the ground at range, as the vid showed), one is training to be a sniper archer.

P.S on armour and its usefulness, not everyone had armour on the battlefields of history, or armour that could stop shortbows shot with skill. Using the crusaders as an example is to use the highest armoured troops of a period to try and say a one man arrow storm doesn't work on them. A few problems with this, the crusaders did lose battles, would have trouble chasing after light skirmishers in all that protective armour, and they were kicked out of the middle east with all crusades and their crusaders eventually defeated.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Not everyone had armor...which is why this technique was used. In places that DID have armor, it fell into oblivion because it was near useless.

Crusaders lost battles largely due to numbers. One on One, european knights were terrors to the natives, and routinely defeated larger armies simply because they were so hard to bring down.

They were overwhelmed in the end by numbers and politics withdrawing support from Europe. It's kind of hard to stay on top when your enemies do significantly outnumber you, and your reinforcements stop coming. That, and they were often well and truly bastards to the people that lived in their lands.

The 'full form' style is also the classic style of japanese style archery. Kyudo, I think?
===========
I set up the example because what he is doing is NOT what Pathfinder archers are assumed to be doing. They are drawing arrows as a free action, fitting them to composite longbows, doing a full draw, firing, and repeating. The Legolas example, only faster, is what PF fighters do.

Doing what Mr. ANderson does is possible only with shorter bows with shorter draw lengths, and he's not drawing arrows at all, he's holding them in his hand. We're just presuming he can grab a fistful at the end of the round to replace those he shot.

===Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
I don't understand your write up. This guy is matching the actual speed that archers in Pathfinder currently shoot. Why would you write up a totally new system to mimic him when the implication is that this is how Pathfinder archers already do it.

The problem is that this guy isn't a fantastic character who breaks the boundaries of reality. He's just an incredibly talented and well-trained archer. In other words, this is something that a 3rd level warrior should be able to do with the right feats. So no, it's not something that archers in Pathfinder can model well.

Quote:
Doing what Mr. ANderson does is possible only with shorter bows with shorter draw lengths, and he's not drawing arrows at all, he's holding them in his hand. We're just presuming he can grab a fistful at the end of the round to replace those he shot.

The 1:34-1:42 segment shows him drawing, moving, and shooting nine times. This is a little longer than one round, but it still shows the complete motion. His stance at the end of the segment is similar to his stance at the start. I'd say, conservatively, seven arrows per round as a standard action.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Which is pretty close to my ruling using Rapid Fire for a full attack at 6 BAB in a combat situation on less then perfectly level ground.

Given the lower power, I still can't see this getting much use against anything with a decent amount of armor.

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.

this. is. so. frakking. awesome.


Lord Phrofet wrote:


The voice is the standard Male microsoft voice (I think) because the guy didn't speak English.

I don't think that's a good assumption. Since he's from denmark and has a name that sounds typically nordic, he probably knows english quite well (at least here in sweden we learn english from about age 9, and I think denmark is the same).


Ilja wrote:
Lord Phrofet wrote:


The voice is the standard Male microsoft voice (I think) because the guy didn't speak English.
I don't think that's a good assumption. Since he's from denmark and has a name that sounds typically nordic, he probably knows english quite well (at least here in sweden we learn english from about age 9, and I think denmark is the same).

It is actually mentioned in his profile or somewhere that he didn't speak English. And I have used that specific mechanical voice in stuff and I am pretty sure it is the standard microsoft male voice.


Lord Phrofet wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Lord Phrofet wrote:


The voice is the standard Male microsoft voice (I think) because the guy didn't speak English.
I don't think that's a good assumption. Since he's from denmark and has a name that sounds typically nordic, he probably knows english quite well (at least here in sweden we learn english from about age 9, and I think denmark is the same).
It is actually mentioned in his profile or somewhere that he didn't speak English. And I have used that specific mechanical voice in stuff and I am pretty sure it is the standard microsoft male voice.

Oh, okay. Sorry then for assuming you assumed!

(and I know it's the microsoft work, I only meant on the "speak english" part)


Aelryinth wrote:

I still can't see this getting much use against anything with a decent amount of armor.

==Aelryinth

In the Pathfinder system Armor isn't DR. If we modeled his actions mechanically, the guy in the video's low poundage bow wouldn't have a harder time hitting than any other bow. It would just mean that he wasn't using a Composite bow (composite, under the system, being defined as a bow which grants bonuses due to strength).

If we were to take another video with another fellow who was bigger and stronger (or let Lars spend a while beefing up), my bet is he could do the same stuff with a higher poundage bow.


Aelryinth wrote:

Not everyone had armor...which is why this technique was used. In places that DID have armor, it fell into oblivion because it was near useless.

Crusaders lost battles largely due to numbers. One on One, european knights were terrors to the natives, and routinely defeated larger armies simply because they were so hard to bring down.

They were overwhelmed in the end by numbers and politics withdrawing support from Europe. It's kind of hard to stay on top when your enemies do significantly outnumber you, and your reinforcements stop coming. That, and they were often well and truly bastards to the people that lived in their lands.

The 'full form' style is also the classic style of japanese style archery. Kyudo, I think?
===========
I set up the example because what he is doing is NOT what Pathfinder archers are assumed to be doing. They are drawing arrows as a free action, fitting them to composite longbows, doing a full draw, firing, and repeating. The Legolas example, only faster, is what PF fighters do.

Doing what Mr. ANderson does is possible only with shorter bows with shorter draw lengths, and he's not drawing arrows at all, he's holding them in his hand. We're just presuming he can grab a fistful at the end of the round to replace those he shot.

===Aelryinth

Second sentence is completely false. Amongst the Arabs, Mongols, Persians, Chinese and Koreans, some had access to very good armour as did their enemies and the fast snap shooting or fast shooting on horseback was practiced, for centuries, against many enemies. The Scythians are gone now, but they and other horse archer folk did defeat even the heavily armed Romans at times. Armour does not make snap shooting useless.

Interesting mention in the video of the Normans and Saxons as fast shooters based on the first hand sources and how the bow was held. Wouldn't pick them for it, but maybe time will tell.


Aelryinth wrote:

Which is pretty close to my ruling using Rapid Fire for a full attack at 6 BAB in a combat situation on less then perfectly level ground.

Given the lower power, I still can't see this getting much use against anything with a decent amount of armor.

==Aelryinth

I don't use a shortbow and I am learning to shoot faster. 1 shot in 2 seconds, the second in 5. That is with a 40-45 lbs compound. Shorter than a longbow, larger than a tiny shortbow.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Second sentence is completely false. Amongst the Arabs, Mongols, Persians, Chinese and Koreans, some had access to very good armour as did their enemies and the fast snap shooting or fast shooting on horseback was practiced, for centuries, against many enemies. The Scythians are gone now, but they and other horse archer folk did defeat even the heavily armed Romans at times. Armour does not make snap shooting useless.

Interesting mention in the video of the Normans and Saxons as fast shooters based on the first hand sources and how the bow was held. Wouldn't pick them for it, but maybe time will tell.

Second sentence completely true, actually. Everyone has potential access to good armor there, sure. But how many of the soldiers actually had good armor?

Very few, because armor was expensive, and you had to be wealthy to afford it. Excellent armor was restricted to few people...the people you want to rapid fire against, the lines of common soldiers, didn't have very good armor.

The horse archer folk defeated the Romans when out in the open and able to skirmish and not be caught. They were generally unable to breach Roman phalanxes, nor their encampments. They were just able to constantly shoot and not be shot back in return, because the ROmans didn't have much in the way of missile fire except slings, which were generally out-ranged and less accurate.

March of the Ten Thousand goes into some talk of skirmishes with horse riders. But Romans set the standard of infantry for many years for a reason, and generally didn't fear archers much at all. They are a bad counter-example to use in this case.

Actually, I believe Danish Vikings were acclaimed short bow men in their day, too. Most of the Vikings didn't use missile weapons, and the Danes punished them for it when need be.

==Aelryinth


Greeks used phalanxes, you mean the testudo?

From what I was reading of Parthian and Scythian campaigns, the Romans did fear arrows shot by specific eastern peoples because they were so often poisoned. Who knows their state of mind for certain though.

Vikings had and used bows, but the shield-wall, melee and ambush were their strengths.


A Pathfinder archer with 7 hits (4 bab +1 many shot 1 rapid shot +1 haste) is supposed to be the peer of a level 16 wizard who can create his own demi-planes, fly, summon armies of monsters, kill people with a flick of his fingers and achieve a wide variety of other amazing feats. I have a hard time seeing how 7 hits a turn is so impressive comparatively especially when considering that the feat is hardly impossible and are fastest real archers already tend towards such speeds.

Now what is far more impressive is characters who can fire a musket reload it 6 times in six seconds. Given that is what a good real musketeer in the real world was looking at a firing rate of 6-10 shots in a minute (rather than a round).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wind Chime wrote:


Now what is far more impressive is characters who can fire a musket reload it 6 times in six seconds. Given that is what a good real musketeer in the real world was looking at a firing rate of 6-10 shots in a minute (rather than a round).

Just found a video that had some fast musketry (and some historical discussion). 6-10 in a minute appears to be wildly optimistic.

In the video the demonstrator seemed pretty adept and it took him 1:20 or so to get off 5 shots. The historical discussion mentioned that Fredrick the Great was revolutionary because he got his army's rate of fire up to 5/minute per soldier.

Six shots from a muzzle loader in six seconds is (IMO) equally fantastic to tossing around fireballs and shapeshifting. It is nowhere even near the lead of the slightly superhuman archery we see in the game. It's like Superman vs. Rorschach.


Wind Chime wrote:
A Pathfinder archer with 7 hits (4 bab +1 many shot 1 rapid shot +1 haste) is supposed to be the peer of a level 16 wizard who can create his own demi-planes, fly, summon armies of monsters, kill people with a flick of his fingers and achieve a wide variety of other amazing feats. I have a hard time seeing how 7 hits a turn is so impressive comparatively especially when considering that the feat is hardly impossible and are fastest real archers already tend towards such speeds.

You're forgetting the 5+ AoO's he can get with Combat Reflexes, Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot, bringing his total up to 12+, perhaps 15+ with good +Dex gear and stats, and of course that many provokes. Charging mount will help.

And, I'm not arguing that Wizards aren't gods, they are, but apples and oranges. And wizards are smart enough to let his minions think they're his equals, so they keep standing between him and the bad guys.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wind Chime wrote:

A Pathfinder archer with 7 hits (4 bab +1 many shot 1 rapid shot +1 haste) is supposed to be the peer of a level 16 wizard who can create his own demi-planes, fly, summon armies of monsters, kill people with a flick of his fingers and achieve a wide variety of other amazing feats. I have a hard time seeing how 7 hits a turn is so impressive comparatively especially when considering that the feat is hardly impossible and are fastest real archers already tend towards such speeds.

Now what is far more impressive is characters who can fire a musket reload it 6 times in six seconds. Given that is what a good real musketeer in the real world was looking at a firing rate of 6-10 shots in a minute (rather than a round).

What makes you think a level 16 archer is supposed to be the peer of a level 16 wizard?

I think you want the 4e room down the hall. Here in this room wizards are cosmic reality altering demigods and we LIKE them that way. :)


Funny note. I am building something of an oracle/archer type for PvP, and I now realistically know how to describe/picture how he shoots. Many thanks for this awesome find :P


I find my games most enjoyable when some players play level 1 fighters and some players play level 10 fighters. It gets rid of antiquated notions like balance or letting everyone contribute relatively evenly in favor of true realism: some people are better than others in every way and fantasy games are best when some people are left playing the wimps.

It's okay, if the level 10 fighters are smart they'll pretend they aren't so much better than the level 1 fighters.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Wind Chime wrote:

A Pathfinder archer with 7 hits (4 bab +1 many shot 1 rapid shot +1 haste) is supposed to be the peer of a level 16 wizard who can create his own demi-planes, fly, summon armies of monsters, kill people with a flick of his fingers and achieve a wide variety of other amazing feats. I have a hard time seeing how 7 hits a turn is so impressive comparatively especially when considering that the feat is hardly impossible and are fastest real archers already tend towards such speeds.

Now what is far more impressive is characters who can fire a musket reload it 6 times in six seconds. Given that is what a good real musketeer in the real world was looking at a firing rate of 6-10 shots in a minute (rather than a round).

What makes you think a level 16 archer is supposed to be the peer of a level 16 wizard?

I think you want the 4e room down the hall. Here in this room wizards are cosmic reality altering demigods and we LIKE them that way. :)

Well I have no problem with wizards being reality altering demigods much as I have no problem with level 16 fighters/barbarian etc being impossibly awesome herculean types. If archer want to shoot all of the hundred head of the hydra in one instant and has found someway in the game rules to allow it well then good for him.

1 to 50 of 58 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Revisiting the archer shooting speed debate All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.