mordion |
7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If a druid with a horse animal companion takes a level of cavalier, does he have one animal companion at his character level, or two at his druid level and cavalier level respectively?
I know this has been discussed before, I'm not aware of any official response and James Jacob's response surprised me. Has there been any official response or developer comment on this?
DeusTerran |
If a druid with a horse animal companion takes a level of cavalier, does he have one animal companion at his character level, or two at his druid level and cavalier level respectively?
I know this has been discussed before, I'm not aware of any official response and James Jacob's response surprised me. Has there been any official response or developer comment on this?
A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
You only ever have one total for "Effective Druid Level" when it comes to classes with animal companion features. It's been argued that each instance of Animal companion should be kept separate (but then that kind of defeats the purpose of the beast-master ranger archetype)
It's more of a GM call really, but why take the druid levels when you can swap out your mount as a cavalier and/or samurai at later levels? Heck there's even the Beast Master Cavalier archetype that broadens your mount selection even further by allowing medium animals (like bears) to become large for riding.
mordion |
You only ever have one total for "Effective Druid Level" when it comes to classes with animal companion features.
That's the way I'd previously understood it as well, but James Jacobs is saying the opposite in the post I linked above.
Whale_Cancer |
...James Jacob's response surprised me.
Heh.
Cavalier 1/Samurai 1/Druid 1/Ranger 4 could have 4 horses? Get yourself a carriage and ride into battle (cohort rogue with the driver archetype!).
Umbranus |
The problem I see with having them stack is that you could get one mount with a really high level soon.
If you have 4 levels of cavalier and a ride skill of 6 ranks you can take the horse master feat that let's your mount be calculates according to your character level. So if you combine it with another class that gets a mount or AC and they stack you get your non cavalier levels counted twice.
So a cavalier 4/ druid 2 would have a level 8 mount.
Gets better or badder if you combine cavalier with nature oracle and a race with favored class bonus to get a higher revelation.
With this a cavalier 4/ nature oracle 4 would have a level 14 mount.
8 (character level) + 4 (oracle level) + 2 (4x 1/2 favored class bonus) = 14
So I'd rather take two AC/mounts than one which is way too strong.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
***If you have 4 levels of cavalier and a ride skill of 6 ranks you can take the horse master feat that let's your mount be calculates according to your character level. So if you combine it with another class that gets a mount or AC and they stack you get your non cavalier levels counted twice.***
This is wrong. Horse Master says:
You blend horsemanship skills from disparate traditions into a seamless mounted combat technique.
Prerequisites: Expert trainer class feature (Advanced Player's Guide 33), Ride 6 ranks.
Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount."
You just use your character level to determine your mount's powers and abilities. You wouldn't add any levels twice. Giving you two separate animal companions for your druid and cavalier levels is actually what breaks this ability, since a Cavalier 6/ Druid 14 would have a twentieth level mount and a 14th level Animal Companion. Technically, the feat could be interpreted as raising both creatures effective levels (although I think the "Normal" clause makes it clear that this is incorrect).
**EDIT** I feel like there's a ranger feat or archetype that allows you to use your character level in place of your normal level as well, so under the interpretation that each class granting an Animal Companion gives you a separate companion, there's probably a way to get two 20th level ACs.
blackbloodtroll |
Read the Druid's entry for animal companions:
The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
Now, if you read the Cavalier's Mount entry:
This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level.
So, they become one, and the same, and therefore "stack".
mordion |
That's the way I read it too. But since JJ, who is knowledgeable, reads it differently it makes me less certain.
What if a 1st level human druid takes a Roc animal companion, and then levels up as a cavalier? Does he just have a mount he can't ride for six levels?
asthyril |
Why would a Mount/Animal Companion ever go beyond your character level?
You would need a special ability to allow you to do so.
or an item:
sylvan sorcerer + robe of arcane heritageUmbranus |
They stack, you get one, and it does not exceed your character level.
citation?
The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
=Horse Master]Horse Master (Combat)
You blend horsemanship skills from disparate traditions into a seamless mounted combat technique.
Prerequisite: Expert trainer class feature, Ride 6 ranks.Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
So you use your character level as your effective druid instead of your cavalier level. Nowhere does it state that this is special in that it doesn't stack as normal.
And this is not the only possible option of getting a mount of a level higher than your character level. A nature oracle with the right favored class option to get one revelation at a higher level (+1/2 per favored class option taken) gets a higher mount, too.
At least I found nothing forbidding this.
RtrnofdMax |
I asked him again to make sure he was really sure. Restated
None of your various animal companions stack.
Umbranus |
The problem with this statement is that it doiesn't really say anything.
"In some cases, multiple class abilities stack, but in most they do not." So he states that most ACs don't stack without saying what this means.
But best bet is that if they don't stack you get both.
That contradicts RAW but supports the druid/cavalier in the end having two level 20 companions.
Silverhand |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been going over the Druid/Samurai stacking issue for PFS play and RAW home games.
Check this thread about PFS legality for a very lively and informative debate:
Go Here.
The original question that sparked the debate (rephrased) was:
If I take 1 level in Druid then 6 levels in Samurai do my Druid Animal Companion and Samurai Mount levels stack?
Answer: yes.
If they DO: does this expand my list of Mounts to include Druid animal companions? If so, could my Druid 1/Samurai 6 character now claim a Large sized Tiger as his mount?
For PFS: No. Search for "Samurai".
However, for RAW home games: Arguably yes (but not definitively).
RAW states that the Samurai mount must be able to support the Samurai and must be from a legal source. A large Tiger Animal Companion can support a medium Samurai AND it is from a legal source (stacking druid/Samurai Animal Companion/Mount levels).
Therefore, in theory: a druid 1 / Samurai 6 could have a Tiger mount.
That said: the other players on the thread argued that unless a legal source EXPLICITLY states that the Animal Companion expands the Samurai Mount list..then NO.
So that's the debate in a nutshell.
Thoughts?
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
blackbloodtroll wrote:They stack, you get one, and it does not exceed your character level.citation?
Animal Companion wrote:The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
Quote:=Horse Master]Horse Master (Combat)
You blend horsemanship skills from disparate traditions into a seamless mounted combat technique.
Prerequisite: Expert trainer class feature, Ride 6 ranks.Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
So you use your character level as your effective druid instead of your cavalier level. Nowhere does it state that this is special in that it doesn't stack as normal.
And this is not the only possible option of getting a mount of a level higher than your character level. A nature oracle with the right favored class option to get one revelation at a higher level (+1/2 per favored class option taken) gets a higher mount, too.
At least I found nothing forbidding this.
Horse Master would override and replace any increase to AC advancement from other sources, since all it says is "Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount." This means that when you take this feat, your character level becomes the determinate for your animal's advancement, not your class level, so it could never have an AC level higher than your character level.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
I've been going over the Druid/Samurai stacking issue for PFS play and RAW home games.
Check this thread about PFS legality for a very lively and informative debate:
Go Here.
The original question that sparked the debate (rephrased) was:
If I take 1 level in Druid then 6 levels in Samurai do my Druid Animal Companion and Samurai Mount levels stack?
Answer: yes.
If they DO: does this expand my list of Mounts to include Druid animal companions? If so, could my Druid 1/Samurai 6 character now claim a Large sized Tiger as his mount?
For PFS: No. Search for "Samurai".
However, for RAW home games: Arguably yes (but not definitively).
RAW states that the Samurai mount must be able to support the Samurai and must be from a legal source. A large Tiger Animal Companion can support a medium Samurai AND it is from a legal source (stacking druid/Samurai Animal Companion/Mount levels).
Therefore, in theory: a druid 1 / Samurai 6 could have a Tiger mount.
That said: the other players on the thread argued that unless a legal source EXPLICITLY states that the Animal Companion expands the Samurai Mount list..then NO.
So that's the debate in a nutshell.
Thoughts?
I personally think that the RAW supports:
1)Classes giving you an Animal Companion stacking for the purposes of advancement2)Characters with cavalier levels being required to choose a companion from the list of eligible cavalier mounts
I also think that an interpretation of the rules that allows you to gain multiple Animal Companions from disparate sources potentially breaks the normal character balance e.g. A cavalier 6 / druid 14 with Horse Master and Boon Companion who gets a level 20 mount and a level 18 Animal Companion from the druid list.
Silverhand |
I personally think that the RAW supports:
1)Classes giving you an Animal Companion stacking for the purposes of advancement
On point 1: I agree. This proves that the character can have only one animal companion/mount. It also means their abilities stack unless stipulated to the contrary (e.g. Share Spells). Some argue that a Druid with a Horse Animal Companion would indeed stack with a Samurai Mount since the Horse is listed under stated Samurai Mounts. However...
2)Characters with cavalier levels being required to choose a companion from the list of eligible cavalier mounts.
On point 2: That's likely but it remains murky because of the wording surrounding Samurai mounts:
Mount (Ex): A samurai gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the samurai's level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount. A Medium samurai can select a camel or a horse. A Small samurai can select a pony or a wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM may approve other animals as suitable mounts."
Issue A)"The mount functions as a druid's animal companion." The phrase "functions as" means "same as". It should read "advances as". That would clear the entire issue up.
Issue B) "The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount." If Horse and Camel are the only choices, then why include this line at all? Simply delete it.
Probable answer to B) Because of the final line: "The GM may approve other animals as suitable mounts". That opens the door to non-horse and non-camels for medium sized Samurai.
In short: RAW states it's GM discretion so long as the creature is suitable as a mount. The door is wide open (and should be kept open) to GM choice for mount. That does NOT mean it stacks with Druid though.
So the final problem is this: if Druid/Samurai levels stack (and they do) and if a Horse Animal Companion would stack with a Samurai mount (which it would) then that means Druid Animal Companions stack and the animal companion list is open because of the ambiguous line "the creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount". This line does not preclude Druid Animal Companions at all, though it is not explicitly stated that Animal Companions are to be added to Samurai Mount lists.
Seraphimpunk |
JJ said that, and then i pointed out that they stack, in the animal companions section
Frost had initially ruled that you can choose your animal companion from the most permissive list, in 2010. so a ranger / druid, can take any animal from the druid list,not just any animal from the ranger list. the same should apply to cavlier, nature oracle, etc.
The current ruling by the current head of pfs brock, seems to favor the least permissive list.
cartmanbeck RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
JJ said that, and then i pointed out that they stack, in the animal companions section
Frost had initially ruled that you can choose your animal companion from the most permissive list, in 2010. so a ranger / druid, can take any animal from the druid list,not just any animal from the ranger list. the same should apply to cavlier, nature oracle, etc.
The current ruling by the current head of pfs brock, seems to favor the least permissive list.
Yeah, James Jacobs was just incorrect in his posts replying to the first question... the druid section on Animal Companions says that multiple classes that grant companions stack levels, instead of giving you multiple companions. Bonded Mounts are listed as functioning as Animal Companions. Therefore they stack to determine levels. The only exception to this is the Pack Lord Druid.
Silverhand |
Frost had initially ruled that you can choose your animal companion from the most permissive list, in 2010. so a ranger / druid, can take any animal from the druid list,not just any animal from the ranger list. the same should apply to cavlier, nature oracle, etc.
Can you send a link for Frost's post? I'd love to read it. BTW: did you hit the FAQ button? :)
Seraphimpunk |
the PFS ruling is that they only stack when they are both valid for animal companion choices by the class ( cavalier and druid, would need a horse, unless you're a special cavalier archetype ).
The ruling currently seems to disregard that you're stacking the levels RAW, and pays more attention to the limited selection of certain classes.
RAW you can't have 2 animal companions w/o an archetype.
if you're a Druid 2/ Calvier 4, you have a 6th level animal companion, not a 2nd EDL wolf and a 4 EDL horse.
to me the logical thing, and the thing frost did, was say that you get to choose from the most permissive list. there's several precidents: monk/fighters don't only get to use monk weapons. once you learn how to use a weapon you can use it. once you learn to summon any animal as an animal companion, you can summon them. and your class levels stack.
Seraphimpunk |
if you limit selection to the least permissive list, then a ranger 5/ druid 2 has to select his EDL 4 animal companion from the ranger's list of ACs, a cavalier 4/druid 2 has to select his AC from the cavalier's list of ACs. In effect penalizing a druid who branches off into another class that grants AC's unless they take an equally permissive archetype for that class ( if one exists).
Nowhere does it say in the rules that they have to take the least permissive list. The rules are silent on that. The rules do say the levels stack for determining EDL. so whether the character takes a small cat, or a horse. their EDL would be the sum of their EDLs from both classes. A cavalier / druid would not be able to ride their small cat, but they could otherwise use their class abilities as normal.
Cheapy |
Quandary wrote:Incorrect. In fact, it's the exact opposite, and always has been.DM Wellard wrote:Just one question arises.If you multiclass into ranger or druid do you get a third dog?Animal Companion Classes always stack, multiple Companion classes don`t grant separate Companions.
...
Zurai said: Incorrect. In fact, it's the exact opposite, and always has been.
Druid class, Core Rulebook page 51:
Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
Silverhand |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So...things are getting interesting again!
I just purchased the Animal Archive.
I've been arguing that Samurai/Cavalier mounts are to be treated as Animal Companions. Many of the Paizo experts have said I'm wrong. Then I read....
Page 20: Animal Archetypes:
"Charger (Companion Archetype)
...Mounted Challenge (Ex): When ridden by a cavalier, chargers gain half the bonus and penalties granted by the cavalier's challenge class feature. This ability replaces share spells."
The salient Point: this "Companion" is in fact treated as as a Cavalier's Mount. Since Share Spells is an Animal Companion special ability.
This, to me, indicates that Mount and Animal Companion are effectively interchangeable terms since Mounts are treated as Druid Animal Companions in the Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat and now Animal Archive as well.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So...things are getting interesting again!
I just purchased the Animal Archive.
I've been arguing that Samurai/Cavalier mounts are to be treated as Animal Companions. Many of the Paizo experts have said I'm wrong. Then I read....
Page 20: Animal Archetypes:
"Charger (Companion Archetype)
...Mounted Challenge (Ex): When ridden by a cavalier, chargers gain half the bonus and penalties granted by the cavalier's challenge class feature. This ability replaces share spells."The salient Point: this "Companion" is in fact treated as as a Cavalier's Mount. Since Share Spells is an Animal Companion special ability.
This, to me, indicates that Mount and Animal Companion are effectively interchangeable terms since Mounts are treated as Druid Animal Companions in the Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat and now Animal Archive as well.
Also amusingly, Cavalier mounts don't qualify for the Charger Archetype since they don't get Share Spells. So that's cute.
Silverhand |
Also amusingly, Cavalier mounts don't qualify for the Charger Archetype since they don't get Share Spells. So that's cute.
Yep. Somethin' ain't right here.
I've been trying in vain to get a clarification on how "effective druid levels" works in conjunction with Samurai/Cavalier Mounts (and how this all plays in to multiclassing between Druids/Cavalier[Samurai]) for some time now.
I have yet to receive a firm, official answer from Paizo.
Then the Animal Archive comes out and makes it even messier.
Paizo....help us here!
Silverhand |
Ya, I have to assume that this discussion is nearing the critical mass required for a dev response. This is surely not the first, nor will it be the last thread about animal companions, mounts and the interaction thereof.
Hopefully.
The mess of misinformation out there is huge. A final ruling would be appreciated. Are you aware of other threads about this topic? I'd FAQ them ASAP if I could find them.
Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn
Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
This same answer applies to multiclassed cavalier/rangers.
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)
Silverhand |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Thanks for this response. It's greatly appreciated and it's very clear.
Two related follow-ups:
1) If a Cavalier is using the Beast Rider archetype and the Mount selected is on both the Beast Rider list and the Druid list(example: Tiger), they'd stack then. Is this correct? I take it, it must be given your explanation.
2) I've found no official answer to this: do Cavalier Mount levels and Paladin Mount levels stack? (As they are both treated as effective Druid Animal Companion levels).
Example: Cavalier gets Mount at level 1, then Multiclases to Paladin and attains level 5 (divine bond) - would the original original Mount stack with the new Paladin levels and receive all the associated powers of the Divine Bond or would the unforunate Cavalier end up with two Mounts, one his original, the other his Divine Bond?
If the levels stack, must the Mount be present on both lists? What would happen if the Cavalier is a Beast Rider and chooses an exotic Mount?
If you have time, I'd appreciate these clarifications.
Again, my thanks.
blahpers |
I think you can generally extrapolate that any two classes with animal companion features stack onto the same animal companion if the chosen animal is on both lists. A paladin/cavalier/druid/ranger/nature oracle/animal domain cleric would be terrible at many things but ought to have only one companion provided it's a horse or other creature common to all of those lists.
This gets more interesting with feats and other abilities that either grant or improve an animal companion.
Silverhand |
I think you can generally extrapolate that any two classes with animal companion features stack onto the same animal companion if the chosen animal is on both lists. A paladin/cavalier/druid/ranger/nature oracle/animal domain cleric would be terrible at many things but ought to have only one companion provided it's a horse or other creature common to all of those lists.
This gets more interesting with feats and other abilities that either grant or improve an animal companion.
I tend to agree. My real concern is a Beast Rider cavalier multiclassing into a Paladin. Since the exotic mount won't be on the Paladin list, would the Cavalier be stuck with two mounts?