Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
That's a good point. People are going to find fault with however it is presented.
However it is presented, I feel it is a good value and so support it. If you don't, I welcome a post for why you don't feel it isn't. Posting your opinion repeatedly does not somehow make you 'right' though.
So far, I have seen a lot of people posting with legitimate questions and queries for further information. Some people have been supplying links in order to address their concerns. Some people have been repeating their disingenuous claims despite having information to the contrary, to what end, I do not know.
At any rate, it seems GW has been clearing up a lot of incorrect assumptions in the FAQ on the kickstarter page, which is nice, because I can understand how some of this could be confusing to those persons that haven't been keeping up on a weekly basis and don't have the time to trudge through old threads to find the answers they seek.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
God, I wanted Vanguard to succeed so badly. I played even after falling through the world and landing on top of dungeons, peering at players fighting down below. I only quit after every last person that started with me couldn't take it any longer. Diplomacy was so cool
I still think I got my money's worth... still talk about times in that game with friends...
Anyway, /backontherails
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
... I feel it is a good value and so support it. If you don't, I welcome a post for why you don't feel it isn't.
For the record, I don't think that was directed at me.
I am absolutely thrilled with the value I'm receiving for my $175 pledge.
God, I wanted Vanguard to succeed so badly.
I've said it before, Vanguard broke my heart. I held on longer than the vast majority, and when I finally said "enough", it killed a part of my soul. In the quiet moments of my own thoughts, I sometimes worry that I'm falling in love with PFO in the same way, and setting myself up for another heartbreak - then I start reminding myself of all the clear-eyed analysis Ryan has already shared with us and I feel more confident - the same way I felt when I married my wife because I just knew we'd never get divorced.
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Eh, without jumping into the whole argument about Kickstarter, I would like to point out one thing...
The game is set to launch with THREE races? Really? Hell Everquest launched with like 12. Have fun re-creating your favorite characters, hope they're elves, humans, or dwarves lads! Oh, but right we can Kickstart to get one additional added. Awesome.
For all those the value of a $100 as compared to most other MMOs to date, let's keep in mind that most MMOs have a broader array of races (options) to choose from. Or did I miss something? Are they micro-transactioning the rest of the races?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually a lot of it felt more like Alpha than Beta to me and the wife.
A friend/co-worker also played. Every time there was an update, he would head out from Three Rivers and try to walk to Veskal's Exchange and back without crashing. It was a big deal when he finally made it just to Veskal's Exchange. I'm not sure he played long enough to ever make it all the way back.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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For all those the value of a $100 as compared to most other MMOs to date, let's keep in mind that most MMOs have a broader array of races (options) to choose from. Or did I miss something? Are they micro-transactioning the rest of the races?
This is a great point and I'm glad you raised it Aarontendo!
This is exactly the kind of thing we're doing to make it possible for us to hit our goals. There are a lot of races in the core RPG rulebook and all those races will be in the game eventually.
The question is, when?
I've seen far too many development teams feel like they have to say "immediately", then kill themselves trying to make it happen, fail, and then have to come to their community and apologize for failing to deliver on a promise.
MMOs are a graveyard of games that have followed that pattern. Once you start making promises you don't think you can keep, you lose the respect of your community and then you can't tell them anything because they have a hard time believing what you say you will do, you will do.
We are making Pathfinder Online differently. We are making it with a very small team. We are making it on a very fast timeline. To do those two things, we have to make hard choices about feature prioritization.
I know we can get Humans, Elves and Dwarves into the game at the level of quality I feel is necessary to stand behind the product (and to ask Paizo to stand behind as well). So I'm comfortable promising that.
And I know that once we are up and running and the size of the game is growing, that we can accurately estimate when we'll be able to add more races based on that growth and on the other priorities we'll be Crowdforging. So when we say "we are putting Flumphs on the development schedule with an anticipated availability of X date", I am comfortable that we'll be doing that with a high degree of confidence in making good on that commitment.
So this is a key difference for the community to note: We are making a game that will start small and lots of folks will be waiting for a feature or an aspect of the world to be developed. But we are also trying to be totally transparent about that, from day one, with no apologies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eh, without jumping into the whole argument about Kickstarter, I would like to point out one thing...
The game is set to launch with THREE races? Really? Hell Everquest launched with like 12. Have fun re-creating your favorite characters, hope they're elves, humans, or dwarves lads! Oh, but right we can Kickstart to get one additional added. Awesome.
Can't deny being very disappointed by this. Will there only be 4 classes available too?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is how I see it. Forgive me if I use the city I love as an example. When the first settlers from overseas came to what is now called New York City, it was a giant swamp. Today it's a massive combination of people, culture and activity.
Right now you have the opportunity to be one of those settlers. This means that you will be limited on things you will be able to do and experience. Much like the settlers then, when comparing it to the comforts of life by today's standard.
If you want to be able to go to Starbucks, then waiting to play the game upon release is probably a better option. If you want to be 'in it' on the ground floor and are prepared for issues (hardships) along the way, then getting into Beta will be for you. Regardless, the $35 investment is a good deal if you know that you're going to buy the game when it comes out.
Remember that the target date for release right now is a year after the Beta of the game, if not longer. What will be in at the beginning, does not mean that more stuff won't be available at release. Your characters don't wipe. You're playing the game and not testing. Instead you get to influence what becomes of the Pathfinder MMO. Much like the early settlers of the New York area influenced what the city is today.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, maybe I missed it with the length of this thread already, but I'd like clarification on the $100 level.
So I get access to the Early Enrollment, and start playing a year or two before Open Enrollment. I also get 3 months of a subscription.
Does that mean playing during the entire Early Enrollment phase as if I had a subscription, then playing 3 months of Open Enrollment as a subscriber? When does the subscription period start? When will Subscriber vs Free Player start to matter?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@deinol,
The Early Enrollment period will require a subscription. Your 3 months of free subscription will start when you start playing during the Early Enrollment. You will also be able to continue playing during the Early Enrollment as a Free Player.
I encourage you to read the blog Money Changes Everything to get a better understanding of what all that means.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, maybe I missed it with the length of this thread already, but I'd like clarification on the $100 level.
So I get access to the Early Enrollment, and start playing a year or two before Open Enrollment. I also get 3 months of a subscription.
Does that mean playing during the entire Early Enrollment phase as if I had a subscription, then playing 3 months of Open Enrollment as a subscriber? When does the subscription period start? When will Subscriber vs Free Player start to matter?
You pay a subscription during early enrollment, you DO NOT get the entire period free.
Early enrollment will be 9 months long, and you must subscribe for this period.
Some time after Open enrollment GW will introduce the potential to play for free by trading game gold for training time bought with real cash. You must spend training time to advance your character.
Each reward tier that includes the game client also includes a set amount of game time. After that time is used you'll be required to subscribe in order to continue to log in to the game.
During Beta the game will only be available to subscribers. In the long term we expect to have options for people to use microtransactions instead of subscriptions to play.
[/quote[
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Goblin Squad Member
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Time for some humor: "Gentlemen, You Can't Fight in Here! This is the War Room!"
Classic. Tbh, the kickstarter took me by surprise and I've attempted to help disseminate what I've learnt recently, but time to get back to what I was studying (after catching the sport highlights..) and take a few days to lay low and watch the KS progress bar. :)
Edit: Just seen Andy's post above: One last poke with my oar: It's ultimately subjective positons: "GW has and has not secured funding" ; "The paid beta is and is not value for money".
To sum: The one thing I want a successful ks to achieve is rapid development and crowdforging + beta -> a very specific mmorpg community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also agree that there's a handful of people fanboying it up pretty hard across the threads and in the Kickstarter comments and making it sound like this is the greatest idea ever, and there's been nothing done wrong here at all.
Your concerns are legit Corwynn. I think everybody here understands that these pledges are investments with risk. All of us, the nays and the yeahs are voting based on what we have seen so far. The yeahs are mostly people who have seen GW hold our hands with a lot of information in blogs and on the forums and we like what we see. I am investing based on the resumes of the team involved , my general faith in pathfinder, and the fact that I believe EVE, not WoW was the correct direction for MMO's to go in. I also believe I will have no problem selling off my early access if I choose to for X or Y reason.
I might be wrong. No investment will have zero red flags and this one is no different.
But I can say that I am giving GW my money and I expect a great GAME in return, not a great PROFIT. I believe this is a fundamental difference in the way to do business and the world in general would be a better place if more value systems were built like this. I am a fan of Co-ops, barter systems and alternate monetary systems so I fully appreciate the mere whole hearted attempt by GW to attempt a true community made MMO with community driven finance.
Again, I might be wrong and I may have just blown $100 bucks...
As far as failed marketing to reach the goal, I agree it looks clumsy, but I am assuming that they are just giving the original pledgers proper chance to get in as the first couple waves and then they will pick it up to get 1m. We'll see.
Goblinworks Founder
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Well on a lighter note and to try to steer the thread away from a war of egos I finally bit the bullet and put $175 pledge in to back development. Amazing what the human mind can do to convince itself to do sometimes.
@Ryan
I want to thank you and your team for the transparency into your design. It is because of this that I can feel comfortable in putting my money down. Maintain this integrity please, Goblin Works has earned my trust solely on the basis of your willingness to keep a constant dialogue with the community, not over promising. Honesty is a rare commodity in this day and age and it carries a long way.
Strive to be different from the sellouts and ensure your investors realise that we are not stupid, the graveyard of failed theme-parks is on the greedy shoulders of the faceless. The consumer has wizened up to their influences and hopefully with projects like this partially funded by kickstarters we can ensure that the players and developers hold the cards, not the faceless investors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And my wife and I are still pledging $175.
My concerns are not outright condemnation of the project, they are raised in order to (in the great deal of time left) ensure that some kind of action may be taken in order to work on the weak points of the pitch.
I have no doubt that that can, and will, happen.
My major issue with the "game" part is that if we are to be expected to pay for early enrollment, it needs to be exceptionally good for a pre-release game . . . and I'm not seeing that right now. I don't see the path by which PFO will be worth paying as much as WoW, Rift, or EVE, even with the carrot of supposedly being MORE interactive with players than other teams have been. (And I have seen some pretty substantial interactions in the past, so that's a high bar.)
So I hope that during this KS we can see the updates start rolling out which sketch out what precisely the game WILL have in it (sure, some of that will be rough, but I mean, how many hexes, how much legroom to explore, what kinds of base systems, etc.) so that people will feel that they will not simply be throwing more money down a hole just to be allowed to test.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all works out. The industry in general interests me, and I'm more than happy to see how different projects unfold. PFO is just one of a half dozen upcoming releases that have a fair bit of my attention. It's my hobby, after all, and I like to know not just where we've been, where we are, but also where we're going. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also agree that there's a handful of people fanboying it up pretty hard across the threads and in the Kickstarter comments and making it sound like this is the greatest idea ever, and there's been nothing done wrong here at all.
Your concerns are legit Corwynn. I think everybody here understands that these pledges are investments with risk. All of us, the nays and the yeahs are voting based on what we have seen so far. The yeahs are mostly people who have seen GW hold our hands with a lot of information in blogs and on the forums and we like what we see. I am investing based on the resumes of the team involved , my general faith in pathfinder, and the fact that I believe EVE, not WoW was the correct direction for MMO's to go in. I also believe I will have no problem selling off my early access if I choose to for X or Y reason.
I might be wrong. No investment will have zero red flags and this one is no different.
But I can say that I am giving GW my money and I expect a great GAME in return, not a great PROFIT. I believe this is a fundamental difference in the way to do business and the world in general would be a better place if more value systems were built like this. I am a fan of Co-ops, barter systems and alternate monetary systems so I fully appreciate the mere whole hearted attempt by GW to attempt a true community made MMO with community driven finance.
Again, I might be wrong and I may have just blown $100 bucks...
As far as failed marketing to reach the goal, I agree it looks clumsy, but I am assuming that they are just giving the original pledgers proper chance to get in as the first couple waves and then they will pick it up to get 1m. We'll see.
And as a "yea" (correct spelling) I want every single "nay" to scream and shout as loud as they can to express VERY legitimate concerns. Just don't be jerks and consider every "yea" to be a mindless GW fanboy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do believe they should make it more clear on the Kickstarter page that you pay for Beta. It's a 9 month roll out for a year at the very least. So you're looking at 9 additional months at the minimum of paid sub at $15 bucks with 3 months free included.
You're paying for the privilege to play early essentially. The money you give to Goblin Works is for to hire more people sooner and probably then be able to add a few extra additions to the game. I've done Betas and super secretive Alphas that I can't even talk about after the games been launched. All of them are MMOs (or were in a few cases - now being closed.) None of them would dream of doing this model. BUT and this is a big but (hence the caps), none of them were sandbox. And I think that's where the real selling point is getting missed. If you have a few tools and with those tools you can build tons of neat things, then the number of tools don't matter so much. With a Themepark your tools are limited if non-existent. This means the content within the game is its only selling point.
What you need to do is look at EvE Online. It started with 20,000 players about and launched with a staff of a couple dozen people. The content was basic, but well done. The amount of the content wasn't an issue. The fact that the players could do things with it is what mattered. It wasn't perfect, but no one cared. They were having too much fun.
GW is flat out telling you that they're starting small and building up to more people. If you want to be in that small group, they want you to pay for it.
If you don't think that's a good deal, then don't invest.
It doesn't make you wrong and it most certainly doesn't make them wrong. They're asking for more money and offering incentives to get the project done sooner than later.
Personally I think anyone that can afford it should at least get the $35 incentive package, if they think they will buy the game in the future. It's a no-brainer really
The question comes about those that want to play the game earlier than release, but not pay for a sub during Beta. That's an answer that each person will have to decide on their own based on finances, priorities and interest. /shrug
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The pay for beta thing rubs me the wrong way. Put some extra nomenclature around it, like "If issues prevent you from playing that time will be refunded to you." Don't fool yourselves, you're a small shop. Your beta won't be Gmail, it will be Darkfall. There is nothing wrong with that if you set that expectation. Otherwise there will be lots of tears here. Some game-breaking bugs that force wipes such as duplication errors, and resource exploits will not come to light until late open beta. Those things will require a wipe. If you are committed to not wiping, you will have shot yourself and the game in the head. Who pays to play something that could be wiped (beta) or a released game with a horribly broken economy due to all the exploits uncovered in beta?...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The pay for beta thing rubs me the wrong way. Put some extra nomenclature around it, like "If issues prevent you from playing that time will be refunded to you." Don't fool yourselves, you're a small shop. Your beta won't be Gmail, it will be Darkfall. There is nothing wrong with that if you set that expectation. Otherwise there will be lots of tears here. Some game-breaking bugs that force wipes such as duplication errors, and resource exploits will not come to light until late open beta. Those things will require a wipe. If you are committed to not wiping, you will have shot yourself and the game in the head. Who pays to play something that could be wiped?
There won't be a wipe. There might be rollbacks though. That's different. Sandbox games are a lot more lenient on the issues you addressed btw. Themeparks tend to have bigger issues on this front.
The pay for beta thing rubs me the wrong way. Put some extra nomenclature around it, like "If issues prevent you from playing that time will be refunded to you." Don't fool yourselves, you're a small shop. Your beta won't be Gmail, it will be Darkfall. There is nothing wrong with that if you set that expectation. Otherwise there will be lots of tears here. Some game-breaking bugs that force wipes such as duplication errors, and resource exploits will not come to light until late open beta. Those things will require a wipe. If you are committed to not wiping, you will have shot yourself and the game in the head. Who pays to play something that could be wiped?There won't be a wipe. There might be rollbacks though. That's different. Sandbox games are a lot more lenient on the issues you addressed btw. Themeparks tend to have bigger issues on this front.
I don't know where you get that impression. A crafting based economy means the exploits filters through the whole system very differently. Since ExploiterZ guild is now funneling 25% more silver ingots into the market, ExpliterX is doing the same with wheat, etc. Eventually 3-4 week down the line ExpoiterQ gets carried away, the exploit is discovered, removed, and rolled back until prior to ExploiterQ's actions. Even if there are financial system levels of audit trails in the system to allow GW to see Z, and X were shady (doubtful); wiping out all of the derivative goods of the innocent players is an unpopular action. Now you have inflation caused by exploitation, and X and Z are two of the more powerful player groups in the game.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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A crafting based economy means the exploits filters through the whole system very differently.
This is absolutely true.
However, it's also true that while the game has a small player population it's easier to see when a character or a group of characters is getting a higher than expected extraction rate from a faucet, and it's easier to see when money starts to flow excessively towards one kind of action.
When you have a million people in a game you have to rely on statistical analysis to try and spot a tiny variation (that is in absolute terms huge) against a lot of background noise.
When you have 50,000 people in a game you can look at a list of active faucets and a list of the movement of wealth and pick out a lot of deviation from the expected trend by eye.
This is one of those areas where 15 years of MMO history benefits us because a lot of the ways exploits work are well understood now and we know how to watch for them. That's not saying that something might slip by but it's less likely that something will slip by long enough to require a significant intercession in the game economy affecting a lot of otherwise innocent players.
A crafting based economy means the exploits filters through the whole system very differently.This is absolutely true.
However, it's also true that while the game has a small player population it's easier to see when a character or a group of characters is getting a higher than expected extraction rate from a faucet, and it's easier to see when money starts to flow excessively towards one kind of action.
When you have a million people in a game you have to rely on statistical analysis to try and spot a tiny variation (that is in absolute terms huge) against a lot of background noise.
When you have 50,000 people in a game you can look at a list of active faucets and a list of the movement of wealth and pick out a lot of deviation from the expected trend by eye.
This is one of those areas where 15 years of MMO history benefits us because a lot of the ways exploits work are well understood now and we know how to watch for them. That's not saying that something might slip by but it's less likely that something will slip by long enough to require a significant intercession in the game economy affecting a lot of otherwise innocent players.
Good luck. I design data warehouses and audit/risk analysis software for financial and medical firms. Fraud and money laundering techniques get pretty exotic, and just because the environment is virtual doesn't mean it will be any easier.
Some guilds horde exploits like rare treasure and work hard not to cause much noise, just like the best white collar crooks make all of their thefts small and obscure. I have no illusion that the services I provide make my clients fraud-proof. I'm just there to help identify and clean up the mess before it gets too out of hand. Often physicians or financial advisers have been crooked for years before they cause a blip or audit alert.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Eh, without jumping into the whole argument about Kickstarter, I would like to point out one thing...
The game is set to launch with THREE races? Really? Hell Everquest launched with like 12. Have fun re-creating your favorite characters, hope they're elves, humans, or dwarves lads! Oh, but right we can Kickstart to get one additional added. Awesome.
Can't deny being very disappointed by this. Will there only be 4 classes available too?
There will be zero classes available during alpha, zero classes will be added for the beta, and zero classes are scheduled to be completed before launch. Currently there are no plans to add classes to the game at all.
Anything that you think requires a class to do will be done with a loose form of abilities with skill and merit badge prerequisites. This system is presumably still in development, but abilities which have the feel of the 11 core classes from the Pathfinder RPG are part of the core featureset. I'm not sure if they've been scheduled as ready by beta or ready by launch, but I would anticipate that they will have the first three months of features for all of them implemented by beta and be developed as least as fast as people train them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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[
There will be zero classes available during alpha, zero classes will be added for the beta, and zero classes are scheduled to be completed before launch. Currently there are no plans to add classes to the game at all.Anything that you think requires a class to do will be done with a loose form of abilities with skill and merit badge prerequisites. This system is presumably still in development, but abilities which have the feel of the 11 core classes from the Pathfinder RPG are part of the core featureset. I'm not sure if they've been scheduled as ready by beta or ready by launch, but I would anticipate that they will have the first three months of features for all of them implemented by beta and be developed as least as fast as people train them.
That's what I meant, the core skill choices available for the defacto classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have tossed in my support to this Kickstarter and I am now curious what would happen with my Day One $100 Crowdforger Pioneer rewards if I was to get some friends to join me in gathering enough cash for the $175 Crowdforger Buddy or the $500 Crowdforger Guild level investments after there are no longer any available Month One slots remaining for those investment levels.
I do not know if I can get my Table Top Buddies to throw down enough cash to actually get together a $500 Crowdforger Guild Investment, but if I did....would it be possible to lose my Month One Slot?
Would I be better off getting my friends to make a contribution separate from my own as to not risk my current place in line?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jmecha, it is first come first serve, so once all the month 1 slots fill up you won't be able to change your package and keep that slot.
You'll have to balance how bad you want to be there in the first month, how many friends you can get to pay, and how far back you will be in line if you change your pledge.
Just checked my email and saw an email from Paizo announcing a second Kickstarter. With incredibly excitement about what new marvel they were going to launch next that would require another call for fan support, I saw it was a second request for the same thing. I promptly sent an email to Paizo with the following message...
To Whom It May Concern,
First, I would like to thank you for keeping the fan community "in the know" about the development of Pathfinder Online. Personally, I believe this to be a really awesome MMO project you guys are putting together!
However, I am EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED that you chose to launch a second Kickstarter for the same project. You are a very successful business, and in my opinion, have brought Dungeons and Dragons where it needed to be. This to me feels like a money grab because you do not wish to carry the normal costs associated with running/launching a new business venture.
In all actuality, this doesn't qualify as a new business venture, because you guys got this nailed down game-wise, and have demonstrated competently that the community is behind you.
Seriously, you know we're behind you, and the community already put their money on the table once to support you. Don't you think you should look after the next stages yourself? Are you really going to double-dip that cookie in the milk?
Shame on you....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am wondering about something, though....
Patrons at this level will receive a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to play once the game hits Open Enrollment, a one month game subscription, and a New Player Pack of consumables. In addition, you will be made a member of the Goblin Squad. Goblin Squad members will be identified with a special icon on the Goblinworks messageboards, currently on paizo.com and later on goblinworks.com. The Goblin Squad will receive special alerts letting them know about new information first: announcements, blog posts, concept art, etc. We’ll give special priority to Goblin Squad members throughout the development process. This is your chance to identify yourself to us and to the community as a key supporter of Pathfinder Online.
Emphasis mine.
Now on to my donation level...
Patrons at this level get all the Loremaster rewards including a digital downloadable copy of the Pathfinder Online MMO and an invite to become an Early Enrollee in the Beta, a three-month game subscription, a New Player Pack of consumables, and a Pathfinder Alliance Pack. Patrons at this level will be invited to join Early Enrollment in the order that they pledged this level. The first 2,000 will be invited into month number one of Early Enrollment. Once we have reached 2,000 patrons at this level, the next 2,000 will get invites to month two, with the next 2,000 getting invites for month three and so on through the ninth month of Early Enrollment.
Again, emphasis mine.
I am not trying to cause a fuss, but if you run this back, I should get a 3 month sub (now raised to four months) and a new player pack of consumables, whatever that is, for donating at this level, and in addition, get an additional 1 month sub and another new player pack of consumables because my donation also included the Adventurer rewards.
The new player consumables pack is probably not going to be a big deal.
That extra month, though, is another matter.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just checked my email and saw an email from Paizo announcing a second Kickstarter. With incredibly excitement about what new marvel they were going to launch next that would require another call for fan support, I saw it was a second request for the same thing. I promptly sent an email to Paizo with the following message...
To Whom It May Concern,
First, I would like to thank you for keeping the fan community "in the know" about the development of Pathfinder Online. Personally, I believe this to be a really awesome MMO project you guys are putting together!
However, I am EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED that you chose to launch a second Kickstarter for the same project. You are a very successful business, and in my opinion, have brought Dungeons and Dragons where it needed to be. This to me feels like a money grab because you do not wish to carry the normal costs associated with running/launching a new business venture.
In all actuality, this doesn't qualify as a new business venture, because you guys got this nailed down game-wise, and have demonstrated competently that the community is behind you.
Seriously, you know we're behind you, and the community already put their money on the table once to support you. Don't you think you should look after the next stages yourself? Are you really going to double-dip that cookie in the milk?
Shame on you....
This still goes back to the they don't NEED this second kickstarter. It's a way for the community to help them achieve the project Bigger, Better, FASTER.