This ability caused some confusion at the table last weekend.
The base ability granted - going without sleep, food, water - is fine, but the recharge is unclear in its effects on characters that prepare spells and is enormously powerful on sorcerers and oracles.
First, to the ambiguity. It is unclear whether it recharges expended spells on a prepared caster (e.g. refreshes everything they prepared that morning), refreshes expended slots and allows them to instant reprepare spells (e.g. pick new spells that instantly fill slots), or refreshes expended slots but still requires prepared casters reprepare spells (taking 1 hour).
This same problem is present in the 3rd Tier ability recuperation. It specifies that expending a mythic point and resting for 1 hour lets you regain uses of spells per day, but does not specify how this interacts with prepared casters. Are their spell slots instantly refilled, are they allowed to pick new spells, or are they forced to pick new spells and take the time to do so?
As to the power of the ability - it effectively allowed the party sorcerer to expend every single high level spell slot he had early in the adventure without any fear of running out of spells - since he could immediately after the combat in which he ran out recharge his entire selection of spells.
Part of the problem in this case may have been the application of a single mythic tier to a party of 14th level characters - it extended his already vast resources while not bestowing the same flexibility on other casters they might normally have by high levels in the form of recuperation.
In any case, even if the ability receives no balance tweaks it needs to have the language cleaned up.
Honestly the power of the ability I'm less worried about than the lack of clarity. Three experienced players looked at it and drew three different conclusions about it.
I think it's an unintentional ambiguity. In the description of the Hierophant, it is the connection with the divine that feeds your power, not with the arcane or with your bloodline. In the Mythic Spells section for the Hierophant it specifically says you have to be able to cast the normal divine version to cast the mythic version. My (potentially wrong) assumption is this needs a revision to specify divine spells.
You must still rest 8 hours to regain spells
but you are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion due to a
lack of sleep. Additionally, once per day you may expend
one use of mythic power as a full-round action to refresh
yourself as if you had rested for 8 hours for the purposes
of regaining spells and healing heal hit point and ability
damage.
Bolding mine.
Wow, normally you would still have to rest 8 hours to regain spells, but 1 MP for a full round action to get ALL your spells back? I hope in future revisions it is limited to divine or cut back to mimic the Archmage ability.
I think it's an unintentional ambiguity.
Clearly. I assume Paizo isn't in the habit of publishing unclear things just to laugh at people as they draw inaccurate conclusions as a result.
In the description of the Hierophant, it is the connection with the divine that feeds your power, not with the arcane or with your bloodline. In the Mythic Spells section for the Hierophant it specifically says you have to be able to cast the normal divine version to cast the mythic version. My (potentially wrong) assumption is this needs a revision to specify divine spells.
Man I hope not. Those two paths are already too split along the arcane / divine divide as is. If I had my way I'd remove all references to arcane / divine from both and change the names to be more generic.
That said, your answer still does nothing for the question of how the ability works. Even if it were divine only the question of spell preparation for clerics or druids still applies, relative to a simple recharge for oracles or inquisitors.
Wow, normally you would still have to rest 8 hours to regain spells, but 1 MP for a full round action to get ALL your spells back? I hope in future revisions it is limited to divine or cut back to mimic the Archmage ability.
Limiting it to divine does nothing to change its power. The oracle or cleric or druid can spell spam just as effectively as a sorcerer or wizard or witch. I'd also point you towards a global 3rd level ability with the same ambiguous wording that also provides a much faster recharge (1 hour instead of 8 hours).
If I'm reading this correctly it's 1 full-round action to get the benefit of 8 hours of rest. You'd still need to spend an hour(?) in meditation/prayer/what-have-you to get your full allotment of spells back. Still remarkably powerful, but not useful in the heat of combat.
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If I'm reading this correctly it's 1 full-round action to get the benefit of 8 hours of rest. You'd still need to spend an hour(?) in meditation/prayer/what-have-you to get your full allotment of spells back. Still remarkably powerful, but not useful in the heat of combat.
Another excellent example of why this needs clarification.
I think it's an unintentional ambiguity.Clearly. I assume Paizo isn't in the habit of publishing unclear things just to laugh at people as they draw inaccurate conclusions as a result.
Sometimes intentional, but not to laugh at people. Paizo is notorious for leaving rules ambiguous. Their responses run along two lines:
1. "I can see how you could read it as Y or Z, but we meant X." The developers are game designers, not technical writers, and it's very common to see rules text that makes this abundantly clear. And given that they're a small outfit, a full-time person with legal or contract experience, kept on staff just to edit the rules text, isn't going to happen.
2. "Sometimes back at the shop with play it as A, and sometimes as B. So we left the rule ambiguous so that different groups would try it different ways and provide feedback." <- Pursuant to (1), above, sometimes by leaving things maddeningly vague, Paizo can get the fan base to do playtesting and technical editing for them, for free. Who wouldn't want a deal like that? Everyone wins.
Design Manager
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The really weird thing about 'sustained by faith' is this...
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells.So, per the PRD, 'sustained by faith' only lets you refresh your arcane spells. Divine spells don't require rest and can only be refreshed at a specific time of day. Counting as if you were rested does nothing to refresh your divine spells.
That's... a really good point.
Daaaaaang Epic Meepo. Good catch there!
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The really weird thing about 'sustained by faith' is this...
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells.So, per the PRD, 'sustained by faith' only lets you refresh your arcane spells. Divine spells don't require rest and can only be refreshed at a specific time of day. Counting as if you were rested does nothing to refresh your divine spells.
BUT, if we look further in the PRD
Recent Casting Limit:
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.
So I would say that Sustained by faith mention 'refresh' in the sense that you do not count spell that should be counted in your Recent Casting Limit.
Because... 8 hours without casting any spell IS some kind of rest for adventurers :p
Edit: So in the end, I would say that it gives you back the spell slots you already used today, and you do not count any spells in your Recent Casting Limit.
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Design Manager
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***Recent Casting Limit:
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.So I would say that Sustained by faith mention 'refresh' in the sense that you do not count spell that should be counted in your Recent Casting Limit.
Because... 8 hours without casting any spell IS some kind of rest for adventurers :p
Edit: So in the end, I would say that it gives you back the spell slots you already used today, and you do not count any spells in your Recent Casting Limit.
All that the recent casting limit quote says is that if you've cast spells within 8 hours of preparing new ones, those count against the total number you're able to prepare. It does nothing to change the fact that divine casters pick a specific time of day in which they can memorize their spells, so Epic Meepo's point is still perfectly valid.
I think both points are irrelevant if they clarify the ability in even the slightest. The intent seems to be pretty clear in that it lets you have your spells back. Whether the current wording conflicts in minutia with the existing specific language on spell preparation I could care less about.
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Design Manager
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I think both points are irrelevant if they clarify the ability in even the slightest. The intent seems to be pretty clear in that it lets you have your spells back. Whether the current wording conflicts in minutia with the existing specific language on spell preparation I could care less about.
But what is the actual intent they're trying to accomplish with this ability? It's not so much minutia that are in conflict, but the whole ability could be (intended to be) tailored to a specific type of character and intentionally left incompatible with certain casters. Especially when you consider how it completely outstrips most other equivalent Mythic abilities when you use the more generous interpretation that it's supposed to allow you to regain all of your spells. It could just be removing the normal 8 hour gap between your last casting and memorization to allow you to run a longer day while maintaining your casting slots. So you could go all Beowulf style, tear through monsters for 23.95 hours straight hurling spells all the while, and then take a deep breath, glance over your shoulder and realize it's almost dawn again, burn a use of your Mythic Power to renew yourself, healing some HP and Ability Damage, then sit down to re-memorize your spells as normal.
If it is intended to give you all your spells back, I'm fine with that as long as it's once per day. Sure, it makes it incredibly more powerful than other abilities where you spend 1 MP to get 1 spell back but those abilities have unlimited use. They both have their place.
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Design Manager
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If it is intended to give you all your spells back, I'm fine with that as long as it's once per day. Sure, it makes it incredibly more powerful than other abilities where you spend 1 MP to get 1 spell back but those abilities have unlimited use. They both have their place.
They don't have unlimited use though, they have a total possible use = to your MP. You could blow your entire Mythic pool and still not equate to a single point spent for Sustained by Faith under the more open interpretation. There's no comparison.
Regardless, it certainly is in need of clarification in exactly how it is intended to work and what its use should accomplish for a character.
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Jason a simple fix for Sustained By faith would be to charge 1 Mythic Power point to refresh all divine spells of 1st level and one additional Mythic power point per spell level to refresh divine spells of a higher level. so you could spend 5 mythic power points to refresh all your 5th level divine spell slots for the day.
Note you would still have to spend 1 hour in prayer or meditation to ones diety. Epic Mepo had it right about divine casters only getting spells a a certain time of day but Mythic Rules are about breaking normal rules. dieties of Mythic casters should pay more attention to thier servants that are of mythic tiers so it would not be tough for a ditey to refresh his servants spells at any time he was asked politly to.
Lou Diamond - so you are suggesting the ability be made inferior in every way to the 3rd tier general mythic ability?
No, I think he was just offering a suggestion. I'm sure Jason and the rest will decide the merit each suggestion has to offer.
No, I think he was just offering a suggestion. I'm sure Jason and the rest will decide the merit each suggestion has to offer.
Right, a suggestion which made the ability worse than Recuperation in virtually every way. Made it so much worse in fact that I cannot ever see anyone I game with taking it. I'm asking if that was his intent, or if he wasn't aware of how Recuperation worked, or if there is some other reason he offered the suggestion.
I don't see why you feel the need to come to his defense.
I wasn't I was merely stating what it looked like his intent was.
Tone is meaningful, isn't it? There are other ways to point out the flaws in an idea without making someone look like an imbecile. If you notice, none of the designers have been as scathing in their responses.
Ok, I can not longer sit by and watch this ability get butchered further. I apologize if the following post seems harsh, but sometimes explanations are harsh.
First, the ability is not only quite simple, but crystal clear in its entirety:
Sustained by Faith (Su): If you spend at least 1 hour of
prayer or meditation you require no food, water, or sleep
for 24 hours. This time can be the same time you use to
prepare spells. You must still rest 8 hours to regain spells
but you are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion due to a
lack of sleep. Additionally, once per day you may expend
one use of mythic power as a full-round action to refresh
yourself as if you had rested for 8 hours for the purposes
of regaining spells and healing heal hit point and ability
damage.
The first part of the ability is very self explanatory and does not seem to be the cause of any confusion so I will not waste any further time on it.
The second part of the ability, shown in bold, is also self explanatory but apparently requires explaining, as it even has aspects to it people seem to be ignoring. Firstly, it can only be used once per day, as was pointed out by The Block Knight. Now, from what I have read above, it seems as if nearly everyone is missing this, or maybe ignoring it as the example concerning a sorceror seems to suggest that the sorceror used the ability repeatedly in the same 24 hour period.
As to the power of the ability - it effectively allowed the party sorcerer to expend every single high level spell slot he had early in the adventure without any fear of running out of spells - since he could immediately after the combat in which he ran out recharge his entire selection of spells.
Furthermore, the ability's second function doesn't just return spell slots, it also heals hit point and ability damage. This means, effectively, that the effect of the ability is exactly like getting 8 hours of sleep or other form of rest. Therefore, arcane prepared casters must then spend an hour preparing spells to place in the spell slots he/she just received, a spontaneous caster must spend 15 minutes concentrating to prepare his/her mind for casting spells in the new slots(page 220 in the core rulebook under "Sorceror and Bard"), and a divine prepared caster actually does not receive any new spell slots for that day until the time of day in which they receive spells from the source of their power, at which time they'd still need to spend an hour preparing spells(page 220 in the core rulebook under "Preparing Divine Spells" sections "Time of Day" and "Spell Selection and Preparation").
So, to be quite honest, this ability is a little weaker than it at first appears. And as for the Recent Casting Limit pointed out by Darkorin, this ability doesn't interact with it because the caster's body, after using the ability, would feel as if it had undergone 8 hours of rest without interruption as during the full-round action needed to trigger the ability he/she is doing nothing but spending Mythic Power to rest.