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Magic missiles don't deal fire damage, silly!
Unless your character is severely out-powered by the rest of the party, to a point where you just ont feel useful anymore, i wouldn't worry about it, if i were you.
I always like new gamers in my groups (and i am thankful that the people i play with are not optimizers or even power gamers) because they play the game, not the rules.
Hello, and welcome to the boards!
As far as your character goes, are you dead-set on a two-weapon fighter? Perhaps you might pull off some two-weapon sweetness with a rogue build. Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues may prove handy for building a rogue focused on two-weapon fighting. Hope this helps! :)
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Maybe you should post some of your backstory. What kind of person she is? Does she prefer finesse or brute strength? What does she wear and look like?
I would make her probably as multiclass of few melee classes. She would be Dex based with TWF with few katana type blades. It seems like you want her to be graceful and fast fighter.
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TWFing should work will with either a ranger or a fighter (two weapon fighter archetype)
If you go ranger you can ignore the dex pre-reqs for the TWFing feats, you get a pet and some spells, also favored enemies and terrains.
The fighter archetype gets more consistent damage boosts and at 9th level can attack with both weapons (or both ends of a double weapon) as standard action. Also with all the extra feats you have room to open yourself up to crit feats which you might as well go for since you'll be making so many damn attacks.
At a guess I'd say a fighter is going to be better in combat but a ranger has enough skill points so you can do something outside of combat.
Ffion,
Two questions:
1. Do you know how long the campaign is going to be? What level do you think you'll get your fighter to?
2. How much ability do you have to determine what magic items you end up with? If a specific item was mentioned for the build, would you be able to get it?
And would you please be a bit more specific? Pls :-)
Like.. "I suggest this feats .... at level..." or "Take this weapons... because..." or "25 pt. system. That means: ST:... DEX:..."
I really suck at building an "uber"char. MEH
just a quick outline:
25pt build
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
This leaves you 6 points to play with: can incr str/dex to 17 or both to 16 or adjust your mental stats a bit to reflect your character concept
You'll also have a 4th level stat point to place somewhere, I'd suggest Str.
Favoured class: Fighter +1HP/lvl or human bonus
Weapon - either a martial a light weapon or a double weapon (so that weapon focus etc counts for both hands)
Armour: at this level probably chain mail or a breastplate, but eventually aim for Full plate
feats:
Human Exotic weapon proficiency (double bladed sword)
1st Two Weapon fighting
1st bonus Weapon focus (double bladed sword)
2nd bonus Double slice
3rd Two Weapon Defence
4th bonus Weapon specialisation (double bladed sword)
Weapon training (double weapons or whichever group your weapon falls in)
Assuming you don't increase your strength any and a non masterwork/magical weapon (hopefully you'll be able to buy one at this level) this will give you attacks of:
primary hand +6To Hit 1d8+5/19-20 crit range x2
off hand +6To Hit 1d8+5/19-20 crit range x2
You'll have an AC of 19 (or 20 when fighting with two weapons) + magical bonuses
Over time you will need to raise your Dex to 17 by 6th level and 19 by 11th level (via items or stat point boosts) so that you can take Improved & Greater TWF
If you have access to more than the Core Rule Book, especially Ultimate Combat you may want to raise your Int to 13, take Combat Expertise & then go down the Two Weapon Feint route
Otherwise just take Greater Weapon Focus/Specialisation, or any other combat/critical feats as fits your concept.
Good luck & enjoy
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Female human fighter 4
NG Medium humanoid
Init +5; Senses Perception +1
DEFENSE:
AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 40 (4d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2; +1 vs fear
OFFENSE:
Speed 30 ft.
Melee short sword +7 (1d6+6/19-20) and short sword +7 (1d6+6/19-20)
Ranged composite longbow +7 (1d8+4)
STATISTICS:
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Double Slice, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (short sword), Weapon Specialization (short sword)
Skills Climb +7, Intimidate +4, Survival +6, Swim +5;
Armor Check Penalty -3
Traits Reactionary
Languages Common
Gear short sword (2), breastplate (agile), composite longbow mighty (+4).
There you go. If you don't kick with this build, I'll cut me eyes out. It's default standard build, nothing special. Enchanted or masterwork items aren't included, so just add their bonuses if you have any.
You have 1 free feat and trait left to reflavor your fighter or take whatever you want.
If your set on twfing thats cool, but if ur not a 2handed warrior will almost always out dpr a twf warrior.. With that said ill do a alittle math for u..
Human 25 point twfing build
4th level
str-17+2(race)+1(4th) =20
dex-15
con-14
int-10
wis-12
cha-8
feats:
H-Power Attack
1st-TWF
2nd-Weapon Focus - W/E u like, Kukri is a good one to start
3rd-Double Slice
4th-Weapon Spec. - Kukri
Assuming WBL of 4k and not spending all ur gold on 2 +1 weapons we'll say ur offhand is mwk still, as this leaves room for +1armor and +1cloak resist + other things..
Attacks MH BAB+4, Str +5, WF +1, Magic +1, -2twf
+9 for 1d4+8 dam, not to bad, power attack makes it +7 for 1d4+12
OH is also +9, but for 1d4+7 or +7 for 1d4+11 with power attack
Not to shabby, but lets now look at the 2 hand fighter
Stats could be switched around if u like, higher int for some cbm feats or w/e or a higher con
Feats:
H-Power attack
1st- weapon focus - Falchion
2nd- furious focus or cleave
3rd- furious focus or cleave
4th- weapon spec - falchion
Not having 2 weapons to buy u can buy additional magic gear if u like or maybe a comp lb with str pull.. or just save so u can buy gloves of dueling asap after 5th level.. but lets assume +1weapon again
Your always power attacking because furious focus negates the penalty on the first attack..
Bab +4, Str +5, +1weapon, +1wf
+11 hit for 2d4+16 damage
So lets compare, none power attacking and u hit with both attacking twfing it would be for 2d4+15 damage and that only at +9s to hit,
power attacking you would do 2d4+23 damage but with only +7s to hit, so not likely unless ur fighting lowbies.. While the 2hander does the 2d4+16 at +11 to hit, which is much more likely and u have cleave for another +11hit to an adjacent enemy.. At 4th level the average damage of either will kill mooks so why not have a better to hit? Ntm Cleave opportunities happen quite often and u would have much better success on bosses with a higher plus to hit.. My 2 cents..
Have u considered playing a paladin? there pretty ubber as well
Personally I don't think that TWF is a newbie friendly combat strategy but if you have your heart set on it I'd suggest the following options.
Ranger (because you can ignore a ton of the TWF stat prereqs - which is less of a concern in a 25 point buy). Good saves and good skill points give this build a good amount of non-combat and combat effectiveness. Damage will be somewhat lower than a pure fighter build but I think it's still a worthwhile choice.
Fighter (focus on boosting strength and static damage bonuses, this character will probably be fairly inept out of combat due to low skill points even with a 25 point buy).
Rogue (focus on maximizing sneak attack opportunities, good skill points but substantially flimsier than the fighter or ranger builds).
In all cases always use paired light weapons like twin short swords or kukris. Going with a longsword + short sword is mechanically ineffective past level 1 or so due to the way that stuff like weapon focus and weapon specialization work.
A ninja is also a viable twfing class.. They get the best light weapon in the game, Wakizashi, sneak attack and a host of other neat abilities including imp invis at 10th level.. Plus they throw lots of ninja stars which is coll in its own right.. But again its not the easiest class to learn and play for a beginner.. Very fun though and lots of damage potential..
Do you have any Iron Kingdom specific class conversions or equipment available? IK has firearms and even magitech to a degree. .
Also no offense but that backstory tells me almost nothing about your character. She could be a Mage or a cleric or anything. How/where do you figure she picked up the skills to be a fighter? What do you want her to be able to do?
Maybe a gunmage(it's an Iron Kingdom class)/pistolero/fighter TWF build would be cool.
IK is a great setting and picking up a few setting specific things is always nice.
P.s. Please also answer Xexyz' questions above....
As Thanel indicated, Iron Kingdoms is a very different campaign setting.
I would check with your GM about a few things as most of the Pathfinder game is designed to interact with Golarion:
1. Firearms – do you need Exotic WP / Gunslinger Abilities to use them? Firearms are very prevalent in Iron Kingdoms.
2. Classes – the normal Iron Kingdom RPG has you start with two classes. Mechanically, the closest Pathfinder would come to this is called Gestalt play (where you advance in two classes simultaneously, but only gaining the best of each classes’ mechanical benefit). You may want to see if you are playing Gestalt to allow for things like a gunmage-knight or sorcerer-investigator.
3. Traits – as it’s a completely different game world, you may want to see if you can use any campaign or racial traits as wholly open and exchangeable or if the GM has specific conversions in mind for traits. With the character background you posted, I could definitely see you with some of the campaign setting / regional traits from Golarion.
4. Starting WBL & Advancement – does your GM assuming the Wealth By Level for Medium advancement? (Which means you would start with 9,000gp). Do you have limits on how you spend your starting gold? (ex. No more than 25% on one item, no more than 50% in one category, etc.)
-TimD
Two weapon fighting is a cool concept and I have played many, many TWF rangers, fighters, even rogues.
However, the rules as they exist today are such that TWF builds are not as powerful as two handed fighting or archer builds. Which is a shame.
However, you seem to enjoy the role playing aspect, and a decent TWF build should be competent in combat.
Most of my TWF builds are "switch-hitters" meaning they have both melee and ranged combat options. Usually that means throwing shuriken, star-knives or daggers. That means they need "quickdraw" so they can draw and throw their weapons. But it does expand their options.
The way to keep your TWF character doing decent damage is to focus on bonuses to your damage, either through strength or enhancement bonuses or even energy weapons. The down side is that means you have to buy two magic weapons to keep up. Which is essentially a magic item tax since it means you won't be spending that gold on armor or body slot items.
TWF is, imho, a somewhat difficult build to play well. I wish you luck.
2. Classes – the normal Iron Kingdom RPG has you start with two classes. Mechanically, the closest Pathfinder would come to this is called Gestalt play (where you advance in two classes simultaneously, but only gaining the best of each classes’ mechanical benefit). You may want to see if you are playing Gestalt to allow for things like a gunmage-knight or sorcerer-investigator.
Really? 1st time I hear of this. Mind I never played IK, but having skimmed a few of the IK books I never saw any 2-classed NPCs...
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What are your weapons? You'll be best off if you have a pair of the same weapon, then take the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats for them early on and get the bonus on both weapons.
Or, take the biggest one-handed weapon you can get in your main hand (longsword, bastard sword, etc.) and use a spiked gauntlet in your offhand. That way, if you have to spend a move action to do something else and can only hit once, you can hold your mainhander in both hands to add the 1.5xSTR to your damage. That's how STR Ranger recommends it.
Also pick up Two-Weapon Rend at your first convenience. An extra 1d10 is pretty nice when you can get it.
Really? 1st time I hear of this. Mind I never played IK, but having skimmed a few of the IK books I never saw any 2-classed NPCs...
:) Really:
Iron Kingdoms Core Rules, p. 107. Step 3 of the 5 basic steps in creating a character is "choose two starting careers for your character", and p. 154 under character advancement you can pick "+1 career" at 30, 80, & 110 XP.-TimD
Personally if I was going to TWF with a fighter I'd go with sword and shield. It's feat heavy but a fighter is one of the few classes that can pull it off.
Feats:
Improved Shield Bash
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus (your choice of weapon)
Weapon Specialization (your choice of weapon)
Power Attack
Double Slice
Two fighting options depending on your preference - using a 'heavy' one handed weapon and using a light shield or using a light one handed weapon and using a heavy shield.
Possible feats in the future - Furious Focus, Shield Slam, Shield Master, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Rend, Bashing Finish, Improved Critical. Saving Shield if you want to support your party a bit.
Guys, pleeease, I'm a newbie.
So I guess Archetypes are a bit to much for me.. or double-class.
The Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype is fairly straightforward. If you want to shed your newbie status, or learn a little more about the game, there's no better way to learn than immersion.
Choosing an Archetype is going to be much easier for you to embrace than some of the stats and math that players and DM's are going to vomit onto your post with their "Here's how to optimize your two weapon fighter" builds. Their ideas are going to be great, but as you can see, you also have to deal with things like "Why not just be a ranger or a ninja" instead of useful information to assist your established character and make HER better.
Here's the basic premise of an archetype: It changes a class's powers and abilities to better suit your style of play. In your case, you want your fighter to use two weapons, and kick ass with those weapons. Ignoring feats, skill choices, and weapon choices for now, this is your primary method of making YOUR character stand out from the rest of the fighters and giving her more abilities that you want (and taking away those that you don't need or won't use because of your play style). For you, that Archetype is Two-Weapon Warrior. I still recommend checking it out.
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Are you okay with doing TWF with a shield? Shield slam makes shield bashing a whole lot of fun and fighters get enough feats where doing this isn't exceedingly painful. UMD and scrolls/wands of true strike for even more shield slamming fun (shield slam using you attack as the CMB so true strikes +20 to hit means +20 your CMB to bulrush somebody).
Really? 1st time I hear of this. Mind I never played IK, but having skimmed a few of the IK books I never saw any 2-classed NPCs...:) Really:
Iron Kingdoms Core Rules, p. 107. Step 3 of the 5 basic steps in creating a character is "choose two starting careers for your character", and p. 154 under character advancement you can pick "+1 career" at 30, 80, & 110 XP.-TimD
Tim, I don't think the OP is talking about the brand new IK RPG. I think she is talking about the old d20 version. It's Pathfinder-compatible (though I always felt it was rather poorly balanced).
So wait a second. Are you the fighter in that list of classes, or is there a fighter, in addition to the one you're making? Either way, if this is a character you're just now creating, and you just want to run around with two swords, I'd suggest instead of going fighter, you go rogue. Two weapons pay off a lot better if you're adding sneak attack damage on all your hits. Ranger would also be a good bet, letting you ignore your dex some.
Hello & Welcome, Ffion_Tarokka!
Oh dear lord Twin Scimitars...
I am guessing most magic items will have to be crafted to be obtained.
If you can get Double Slice you can increase Damage a bit.
If you want I can have a Level Chart for the Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype for you to use as it is one of the best for this type of build. Or I can do the Mobile Fighter Archetype which is just as good.
Here is my attempt at what you have asked for :)
19 Str 13 points +2 race +1 lvl 4
16 Dex 5 points +2 race
14 Con 5 points
10 Int 0 points
12 Wis 2 points
10 Cha 0 points
F1 Weapon Focus Scimitar, Two Weapon Fighting
Scale Mail (ac= 18) Scimitars (+2/+2 to hit 1d6+4/1d6+2 damage)
F2 Double Slice
Breast Plate (ac = 19) Mw Scimitars (+4/+4 to hit 1d6+4 damage)
F3 Weapon Training Scimitar, Dodge
Mw Breast Plate (ac = 20) Mw Scimitars (+6/+6 to hit 1d6+5 damage)
F4 Weapon Spec Scimitars +1 str (20)
Mw Breast Plate (ac=20) Mw Scimitars (+7/+7 to hit 1d6+8 damage)
At lvl 8 you would increase your dex to 17 and pick up improved two weapon fighting
If your dm allows 3.5 feats (or just likes you :P) he may allow a feat called oversized two weapon fighting which would give you an extra +2 to hit with each weapon
Just as an FYI dual wielding scimitars is pretty iconic of a certain popular fantasy series (hey, I love Drizzt) but depending on how much your group knows/likes/hates RA Salvatore you might get a couple groans when you mention that you want to dual wield scimitars. If you don't care then that's fine and it's prefectly ok to use them.
Still I'd take another look at a sword+shield bashing TWF to make sure that isn't something you'd be interested in.
Hello & Welcome, Ffion_Tarokka!
Oh dear lord Twin Scimitars...
I am guessing most magic items will have to be crafted to be obtained.
If you can get Double Slice you can increase Damage a bit.
If you want I can have a Level Chart for the Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype for you to use as it is one of the best for this type of build. Or I can do the Mobile Fighter Archetype which is just as good.
Hi :-)
.. Are twin scimitars not good?
1d6 Damage is OK, isnt it? For a light weapon?
Scimtar is your way to go.
Scimitars are not a light weapon, there a 1 handed weapon which means you'll be taking a -4 to hit duel wielding them until your twf archetype kicks in to reduce that penalty.. I would suggest using kukri's or take exotic weapon prof - Wakizashi.. The later is prob what i would do..
You can not TWF without magic items. Talk to your GM about reducing the dex prerequisites to sane values if you can not 100% count on being able to buy stat boosting belts.Why cant I? .. there is the possibility to buy or craft +[whatever] actually.. Does it help?
They are not magical though, but they have kinda "battery" (Iron Kingdoms..) and that makes weapons or shields mightier. But NOT magical.
Don't listen to Atarlost; you can TWF without magic items. You're just going to do less damage because you're not going to have STR boosting equipment to compensate for all the points you have to put into DEX.
Please though, don't dual-wield scimitars. For starters, there's the Drizzt imagery and you don't want to go down that road. Second, scimitars are not light weapons so if you wield one in your offhand you're going to be taking an extra -2 (on top of the normal -2 for dual wielding) to hit, which is very bad. If you want to dual wield something with a high crit range, which is a smart play for dual-wielders, go with two kukris.
For stats, with a 25 point buy I recommend the following:
STR 16 (then the +2 for your racial which brings it to 18)
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10
Put your 4th, 8th, and 12th level ability increases into Dex. The remaining two go into Str.
Take the two-weapon warrior archetype. Here's a build for dual-wielding kukris:
1st - Weapon Focus: Kukri, Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack
2nd - Combat Reflexes
3rd - Iron Will
4th - Weapon Specialization: Kukri
5th - Lunge
6th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th - Doubleslice
8th - Improved Critical: Kukri
9th - Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Two-Weapon Rend
12th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Kukri
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15th - Bleeding Critical
16th - Critical Mastery
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Penetrating Strike
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RJ's got a good build, but I'd suggest a 1 level dip in Barbarian at first level) in order to get access to acrobatics as a class skill - as a good dex fighter you will eventually be able to ignore the movement penalty of heavy armor and would be able to tumble in full plate. taking the first level in barbarian also gives better starting hit points than a fighter, and you get access to RAGE which every melee combatant loves. somewhere down the road (11th or later) you can take a second level of barbarian to get improved uncanny dodge.
you wand to start with enough dex so that you get access to greater TWF at higher levels, typically this will be 19 dex, so an ion stone and the first two stat bumps at 4th and 8th make this easy. use your belt slot for STR and CON bonuses. you won't need more dex. stay away from mithral armor...a fighter's armor training eventually gets rid of the armor check penalty. sash of the war champion helps this as well.
also stay away from the two weapon warrior archetype in the APG. you can make do with not having armor training (by getting mithral armor), but losing the weapon training is not a good idea. the bonuses you would get only apply in certain situations, and a +1 (and better, and with multiple weapon types) to hit and damage all the time has much better utility.
don't start with less than a 14 CON. dump CHA and try and get a 12 INT and WIS. put the rest in STR.
and I suggest the two-bladed sword. being able to switch between two-weapon fighting and two-handed weapon fighting is great when needed (like when you only get a standard action and not a full attack.)
Like others have said scimitars are one-handed but not light weapons so paired scimitars tend to suck.
TWF also generally punishes mismatched weapons so you are going to want to go with matched light martial weapons (generally shortsword or kukri but twin hand axes or light picks are cool too).
If you have a racial familiarity with an exotic light weapon or exotic double weapon(dwarves get maulaxes and urgoshes, half-orcs get double axes, gnomes get hook hammer) it can be worthwhile to go with those as well but personally I think double weapons are pretty goofy.
I think it's also generally pretty advisable to get a finesseable weapon for builds that are going to rely on high dexterity TWF.
Ok - I guess you already read the message I sent you Nemesis Az, but I just want to tell you guys here in the thread that some of your advices are somewhat not helpful.
Reasons:
Scimtars are the best choice at higher levels when you pick up the appropriate archtype. Therefor you can start with Kukris, but you have to pick weapon foc and spec for scimtars, so the DPR of scimtars will still be better at low levels. If you plan on staying at low level you can pick those feats fpr kukris and its the best you can do - but for games that lead to higher levels scimtars are the better choice.
Furthermore, yes, no magic items really suck because you need dex and str then - thats hard to afford. You have a lot of feats though.
that's why I'd pick up the eldritch heritage chain (orc) and quicken spellike ability later to get huge bonuses to strength and incredible powerful fullattacks 3 times a day. In addition to that you will be able to become large at higher levels with nice strength boost - but I dont know wether your campaign will last that long.
(only if you will be able to get cha headband at higher levels)
At early levels you pick quick draw to be able to AoO/single attack with 1.5-str-mod and -1/+3 power attack - later you switch it out for something more helpful.
Sadly TWF is really depending on magic items, more than any other build. So get whatever you can get.
edit: get chakrams for ranged combat, works great with quickdraw until you retrain it for TW Warrior 9th level ability.
Elddritch Heritage (orc) isn't likely to work in an Iron Kingdoms game, on account of the absence of orcs in the setting.
Well that actually sucks - is there a way to reflavour the bloodline? Bu yea, I get that point. Can you even play spellcaster in that setting - and if - cant they take the crafting feats?
that's why I'd pick up the eldritch heritage chain (orc) and quicken spellike ability later to get huge bonuses to strength and incredible powerful fullattacks 3 times a day. In addition to that you will be able to become large at higher levels with nice strength boost - but I dont know wether your campaign will last that long.
(only if you will be able to get cha headband at higher levels)
I don't see the Eldritch Heritage line of feats feasible for this character. The character is strapped for stats as it is and trying to get enough charisma to qualify for the feat chain is going to be extremely difficult and possibly impossible if it's as they say that magic items are not going to be realistically available. There's no way to get enough Charisma without a headband and still have enough of Str, Dex, and Con to be a fighter.
Thats why I said only if you can get a headband later. But 13 Cha to begin with is 3 points and fits in pretty good considering 25 pointbuy. at least as long as you can get the headband around level 10-12.
[Tim, I don't think the OP is talking about the brand new IK RPG. I think she is talking about the old d20 version. It's Pathfinder-compatible (though I always felt it was rather poorly balanced).
Ahhhh! That would explain it.
Thanks for the heads-up. Will look into checking out some of the PF stuff for it for additional background info.
-TimD