I was thinking about making an inquisitor character who is all about monster hunting (preferrably undead and evil outsiders, but also other vile creatures and those that worship them), with that i think the crossbow is an iconic choice, but we all know how much it sucks even compared to a regular longbow, if you have bow proficiency (when you dont have longbow proficiency taking the feat to gain it or taking rapid reload to get your crossbow up to speed are at least the same tax). There are repeating crossbows with which inquisitors are actually automatically proficient with, but those only do their job for 5 shots and then the reload takes even longer.
I don't think i have to explain the problem even further (I don't think i had to explain it in the first place to most users here), so do you know ways to make crossbows viable, without homebrewing?
Archetypes and feats are fine, i also don't mind multiclassing, as long as the other classes would fit the style of the monster-slayer/hunter and go well with inquisitors in general.
But this thread shouldn't only extend to inquisitor builds, but characters who would like to do something meaningful with crossbows in general.
Uhm, beyond feats, I'm seeing the Crossbowman Fighter archetype, the Divine Hunter Paladin archetype (which could work alongside Inquisitor levels if you want to go LG or houserule to let pallies be whatever), and the Justiciar PrC if you're lawful and can afford it.
What exactly is your issue with the repeater crossbow, beyond its gross cost and a full-round reload time? I don't see a huge issue with them, especially at lower levels when they're really helpful for crossbow users.
A simple homebrew option would be to change the gunslinger to using crossbows, but if homebrew's totally out, then I'm not sure what you could do beyond taking feats to make it good. Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim both seem like must-haves, and net you an instant +3 damage per shot against nearby foes at low levels. By the time an inquisitor gets +4 BAB, you could nab Weapon Focus, or even get a magic repeater... Also, you should have bane by then, for an extra 2d6 damage per shot if you're smart. At 6th-level, you'd be looking at (potentially) 1d10+6+2d6 damage (base Heavy Repeating Crossbow + Deadly Aim (4) and Point Blank Shot (1) and magic (1) + bane) per shot... all at a +8 to hit (+4 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 magic, +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 Weapon Focus, -2 Deadly Aim). That doesn't seem half-bad for a 3/4 BAB character who also has spells and other tricks up their sleeve; hitting a fair amount of the time, dealing an average of about 18 damage per hit.
If you want to go for full attacks, Rapid Shot is a friend; for single bolts that really count, Vital Strike'd be beautiful. Honestly, I now want to play a character with a repeating crossbow.
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How to make a crossbow viable:
1) Load crossbow
2) shoot elf with crossbow
3) steal elf's bow
4) ???
5) Profit!
But seriously, every feat that benefits a crossbow user also benefits a bow user. Since an inquisitor is already proficient with both bows and crossbows, his best bet would be to just use a bow. That way you don't have to spend a feat on Rapid Reload, which is a feat slot you can spend to make your bow use better.
Spend a feat slot to make a crossbow equal to a bow, or just use a bow and spend that feat slot to make the bow better.
I tried REALLY hard to come up with a viable method. Here's a good combination of feats to get you going, but it does take more feats than going with a standard bow. If you don't mind the extra cost to keep the iconic vision, then here's what I've got:
Those 5 will get you by, and are your core feats. If you decide to go all the way to Crossbow Mastery, make it worth your while and make sure the heavy crossbow (or repeating heavy crossbow) is your crossbow of choice. Most bang for your buck. Here's a few more feats you may find handy:
* Focused Shot - This one is only good for a single attack per round, and only within 30' (like PBS), but allows you to add your INT bonus to your bow or crossbow damage. Good if you like to shoot on the move while in close range. Useless if you want to keep your distance and stay basically still while firing.
* Deadly Aim - Essentially, it's Power Attack for ranged weapons. Shibby!
These ones are good for shots on the run, or when you can only get off a single attack.
* Vital Strike - Do double weapon dice damage on a single shot per round!
* Improved Vital Strike - Do triple weapon dice damage on a single shot per round!!
This next one is only an option if you plan on dipping in other FULL BAB classes long enough to get your BAB up to +16.
* Greater Vital Strike - Do QUADRUPLE weapon dice damage on a single shot per round!!!
Incidentally, you can use VS/IVS/GVS with ANY weapon with which you choose to attack, so that makes them THAT MUCH BETTER!!!
Other than that, your Judgments should be (and probably in this order):
* Justice: +1 sacred bonus to hit, increasing by +1 for every 5 Inquisitor levels (+5 at 20). At level 10 the bonus doubles to confirm crits.
* Destruction: +1 sacred bonus to damage, increasing by +1 for every 3 Inquisitor levels (+7 at 18).
* Smiting: Good for bypassing DR. Only use if necessary.
All other Judgments are on a case-by-case basis. Utilize them when it behooves you. Choose wisely!
And BANE!!! Utilize this awesomeness! +2 to hit / +2d6 damage versus whatever you choose for Inquisitor level in rounds/day! If you find yourself running out of Bane, consider the following options (but only if your GM will let you "retrain" feats at later levels):
* Extended Bane - This feat lets you add your Wisdom modifier to the number of rounds/day you can utilize Bane.
* Extra Bane This feat adds a flat 3 rounds/day to your Bane.
Aside from those feats, make sure to choose spells wisely, and UTILIZE THEM!
I recommend Repeating Heavy Crossbow. At low levels it will give you more attacks before you have downtime, and at higher levels, when you can get Crossbow Mastery, it's the same as a Heavy Crossbow with the same feat. So, in the long run it makes no difference, but in the early stages it will help immensely.
You'd need the feats Point blank shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, and Crossbow mastery to bring a crossbow up to long bow levels and even then still can't get strength to damage sadly.
I'd use the following progression for xbows
1st Inquisitor 1 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload (Heavy)
3rd Fighter 1 Rapid Shot and Crossbow Mastery
5th Inquisitor 4 Deadly Aim
Any reason to take the crossbow ranger path? I'm having a hard time finding one.
Crossbows are, unfortunately, terrible. There are only two things they have going for them:
- They are easier to use than longbows.
- They look real cool.
That said, they aren't THAT much worse than a real bow, if the cool factor balances out the objective worseness for you.
It IS possible to get one that you can fire with only one hand, and/or fire underwater though. You could potentially work out a high-concept build based on that.
beej67:
As the rules stand, there is absolutely NO mechanical reason to select crossbows if standard bows are an option for you. Standard bow archers have far more options, are far more efficient, and are in every way superior to crossbow archers.
It takes AT LEAST one feat (Rapid Reload) to get hand and light crossbows firing at the same rate as a standard bow with NO feats, and a MINIMUM of four feats (Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Crossbow Mastery) for a heavy crossbow. Crossbows and Firearms tend to be extremely sub-par when compared to bows. And (certain) bows can apply strength to damage!
So, unless you're taking crossbows for the "flavor" of using a crossbow, it will be a sub-optimal choice.
Hey Paizo! We need some good FEAT-BASED reasons to focus on crossbow combat! Please help! ;)
Any reason to take the crossbow ranger path? I'm having a hard time finding one.
The only reason i can think of would be access to Gravity Bow which is also a mage spell and falcons aim which is an item so...
... no.
Guided enchantment.
Has guided been reprinted? It was a 3.5 ability and would most likely no longer be a +1 ability as it is way better than agile.
But seriously, every feat that benefits a crossbow user also benefits a bow user. Since an inquisitor is already proficient with both bows and crossbows, his best bet would be to just use a bow. That way you don't have to spend a feat on Rapid Reload, which is a feat slot you can spend to make your bow use better.
Spend a feat slot to make a crossbow equal to a bow, or just use a bow and spend that feat slot to make the bow better.
Which is exactly the problem that lead me to start this topic.
I tried REALLY hard to come up with a viable method. Here's a good combination of feats to get you going, but it does take more feats than going with a standard bow. If you don't mind the extra cost to keep the iconic vision, then here's what I've got:
Those 5 will get you by, and are your core feats. If you decide to go all the way to Crossbow Mastery, make it worth your while and make sure the heavy crossbow (or repeating heavy crossbow) is your crossbow of choice. Most bang for your buck. Here's a few more feats you may find handy:
* Focused Shot - This one is only good for a single attack per round, and only within 30' (like PBS), but allows you to add your INT bonus to your bow or crossbow damage. Good if you like to shoot on the move while in close range. Useless if you want to keep your distance and stay basically still while firing.
* Deadly Aim - Essentially, it's Power Attack for ranged weapons. Shibby!
These ones are good for shots on the run, or when you can only get off a single attack.
* Vital Strike - Do double weapon dice damage on a single shot per round!
* Improved Vital Strike - Do triple weapon dice damage on a single shot per round!!
This next one is only an...
The focused shot and vital strike feats make a lot of sense actually, i like that, i might look further into those.
Well, it's a 3.5 Pathfinder ability.
Not quite in the houserule territory.
Even if you allow non-core material, the guided ability doesn't help the crossbow. Using wisdom instead of strength to a weapon that doesn't use strength, is simply a waste of enhancement bonus.
@OP: Is it possible to make a crossbow viable? Yes, but it'll take heavy feat expenditures.
Is it possible to make a crossbow close to equal to the composite longbow? No, never.
A simple homebrew option would be to change the gunslinger to using crossbows,
As a matter of fact i wrote one such archetype up in the Homebrew section of these boards.
but if homebrew's totally out, then I'm not sure what you could do beyond taking feats to make it good. Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim both seem like must-haves, and net you an instant +3 damage per shot against nearby foes at low levels. By the time an inquisitor gets +4 BAB, you could nab Weapon Focus, or even get a magic repeater... Also, you should have bane by then, for an extra 2d6 damage per shot if you're smart. At 6th-level, you'd be looking at (potentially) 1d10+6+2d6 damage (base Heavy Repeating Crossbow + Deadly Aim (4) and Point Blank Shot (1) and magic (1) + bane) per shot... all at a +8 to hit (+4 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 magic, +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 Weapon Focus, -2 Deadly Aim). That doesn't seem half-bad for a 3/4 BAB character who also has spells and other tricks up their sleeve; hitting a fair amount of the time, dealing an average of about 18 damage per hit.
If you want to go for full attacks, Rapid Shot is a friend; for single bolts that really count, Vital Strike'd be beautiful. Honestly, I now want to play a character with a repeating crossbow.
Yeah i would like to accomplish this without homebrew. The problem i have with repeating crossbows is that they are still sub-par compared to longbows because after the 5th shot they take a full round to reload.
_________
Though, what would happen with a repeating crossbow with the endless ammunition enchantment? If i read the enchantment right it would have an empty magazine that generates a bolt every time the reloading lever is pulled. Making reloading the magazine obsolete. Thus endless shots.
Although a +2 enchantment cost is probably not mch better than a feat cost.
Though, what would happen with a repeating crossbow with the endless ammunition enchantment? If i read the enchantment right it would have an empty magazine that generates a bolt every time the reloading lever is pulled. Making reloading the magazine obsolete. Thus endless shots.Although a +2 enchantment cost is probably not mch better than a feat cost.
The text for endless ammunition pretty directly rules this out:
"This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon."
While it flavor-wise can be argued that the repeating crossbow should work the way you suggest, it would have to disregard the text nonetheless (Mind you, I think it would be fair to do so).
I've seen it steady crossbow fire kept up once, but it required teamwork between the archer and wizard in the party.
Archer bought 2 repeating crossbows and had Quickdraw. When one emptied, Archer dropped it and drew the other one. Meanwhile, Wizard's familiar hid behind Archer, reloaded bow 1, and clipped it back on Archer's belt ready for drawing. Repeat as necessary.
It says the arrow/bolt appears when the weapon is nocked. To me that's the moment the reloading lever is pulled back (whih has always been a free action). Yeah reloading still takes as long as before, but the thing is, that you don't need to reload at all anymore, unless you want to load physical ammunition into the weapons (for example enchanted bolts).
I'm swaying more and more toward the repeating crossbow, not for power, but style reasons. The character could be carrying around several magazines loaded with magical and special material bolts, as sort of special issue ammunition (40k Space Marine Sternguard/Deathwatch style)
The crossbow is good for one thing as far as I can tell and thats firing whole prone. Sure that's not super helpful when fighting something that wants to eat you but from a distance its +4 AC. So if you had some ability to stand as a free you could start going prone a whole bunch. I guess it would have its uses...
No. You will always fall short of an bow build without getting anything in return.
Or a low-strength vital strike one-shot switch hitter with a heavy crossbow.
Guided enchantment.
Why would that be better on a crossbow than on a bow?
The same advice I give on all threads like this one: Use the stats for a composite longbow and fluff it as a crossbow that you can reload very quickly, because you're just THAT awesome.
Seriously, I hate it when players are forced to sacrifice their fluff idead for mechanics.