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A ninth level Wizard isn't going to make the crafting DC needed. He can't take 10, he probably doesn't have the skill ranks needed, so no... it can't happen that way. And one can even levey a penalty for an extremely complex construction being rushed.
Headband of +2 int (Craft(Armor))
Headband of +2 int (Craft(Bows))Headband of +2 int (Craft(Weapons))
Headband of +2 int (Craft(Whatever))
At 2,000gp a pop, a 9th level wizard can have a couple of such headbands each granting him 9 ranks of a craft skill. He just needs 24 hours of prep time to get ready to craft. Given if he's doing such crafting, he probably doesn't care about removing his +4 Int (Perception, Acrobatics) headband for a few days while he's making money doing crafting.
He can't take 10
Why are you trying to use Fabricate to craft during combat?
I believe in another thread it was argued out that you couldn't Fabricate something that was Masterwork, as the spell doesn't let you set a target DC.
So, you can Fabricate anything made of special materials, because all such things are masterwork.
===Aelryinth
Paying 125,000+ gp for +5 Inherent Int but not paying 90,000 for a +30 Competence skill bonus? That is a waste of Int. Also, Enhancement is not limited to +6.
/cevah
I'm totally going to necro this, but Human is actually the best crafter. At 20th level, with Heart of the Fields, you get +10 racial bonus to a craft or profession check.
Not sure that was around when this thread started.
In any case, I think Pathfinder Unchained has some new crafting rules which really helps with this kind of problem.
Archives of Nethys indicates Heart of the Fields is in:
Advanced Race Guide (Jun 2012), Advanced Player's Guide (Jul 2010)
Thread started Nov 2012.
It was available for two years.
/cevah
If you're doing non-fabricate crafting, you need to buy Amazing Tools of Manufacture. 2000gp/1hr/day of crafting and only 1 craft check needed.
Our simple fix to this issue is to have the crafter use masterwork tools of special design, then disregard the special material cost in the crafting calculations altogether.
As an example, if you want to make adamantine armor, the crafter must use special adamanatine tools to work the metal.
The cost of "other" items under special materials is usually 1/2 the cost of a piece of light armor per lb (i.e. mithral: light armor, +1000 gp; other mithral item, +500 gp/lb. Living steel: light armor, +500 gp; other living steel items, 250 gp/lb).
Using this as a base reference, adamantine working tools would cost 2,500 gp/lb. A tool kit weighs 5 lbs. So, the crafter can get a special set of tools for 12,500 gp and can work adamantine as if it were normal steel, ignoring the special material.
Perhaps not the best way to fix the system, but it is simple and works.
If you're doing non-fabricate crafting, you need to buy Amazing Tools of Manufacture. 2000gp/1hr/day of crafting and only 1 craft check needed.
While this provides good speed, it makes no profit. Cost = 1/2 Price = Sale. Profit = 0.
Fabricate is Cost = 1/3 Price = 2/3 Sale, therefore Profit = 1/6 Price./cevah
Any decent magical crafter is going to spend their early levels crafting magical tools.
They start with a Masterwork Crafting Tool for their particular craft (+2 circumstance bonus).
Then they enchant it to grant an Enhancement bonus. Probably +4 to start. This is something most crafting-based characters can do by 4th level.
Then, they're going to use that tool to make the next one. They should be able to get up to a +6 or even +8 at that point. Then they sell the old tool to recoup their cost.
Rinse, repeat until you get to +10. Then you have a +12 tool (because enhancement and circumstance bonuses stack).
Then make a few rolls or potions of Crafter's Fortune.
By the time you get to 9th level you should be able to reasonably have a total Craft skill bonus of +30 (this is a low estimate).
Fabricating a suit of mithril full plate isn't even going to provide a challenge.
If you're doing non-fabricate crafting, you need to buy Amazing Tools of Manufacture. 2000gp/1hr/day of crafting and only 1 craft check needed.While this provides good speed, it makes no profit. Cost = 1/2 Price = Sale. Profit = 0.
Fabricate is Cost = 1/3 Price = 2/3 Sale, therefore Profit = 1/6 Price./cevah
I thought the question was how fast, not how much profit. ;)
And I'm assuming not everyone casts spells so Amazing Tools of Manufacture can make special material armor/weapons quick and easy.
When making mundane materials, raw materials is 1/3 market price, not 1/2. It's 1/2 when making magic items.
So yeah, you can totally make mundane items, sell at 1/2 market, and still make a small profit.
Amazing tools of manufacture are a 12k gp item. You have to be nigh onto 10th level to afford them. Totally worth it once you are, of course.
Note the Unchained rules now allow an unlocked skill to craft at 2x and eventually 7x pace...and at level 20 allowing what should have been allowed with the Magical Artisan ability all along, crafting any magic item that falls into that crafting category.
==Aelryinth
"The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less."When making mundane materials, raw materials is 1/3 market price, not 1/2. It's 1/2 when making magic items.
So yeah, you can totally make mundane items, sell at 1/2 market, and still make a small profit.
Amazing tools of manufacture are a 12k gp item. You have to be nigh onto 10th level to afford them. Totally worth it once you are, of course.
Note the Unchained rules now allow an unlocked skill to craft at 2x and eventually 7x pace...and at level 20 allowing what should have been allowed with the Magical Artisan ability all along, crafting any magic item that falls into that crafting category.
==Aelryinth
Half price = no profit
/cevah
Go reread the crafting rules.
============
The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. The DC, your check result, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item's finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
1.Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2.Find the item's DC from Table: Craft Skills.
3.Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.
4.Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
==
1/3 of market price actually approximates reality. That's how most manufacturers price their products...triple raw materials.
Tools basically subs the magical process for the crafting process, they aren't the same thing.
HWalsh: The Craft DC for plate armor is DC 19, or 10+AC. The masterwork component is treated separately and is DC 20.
===Aelryinth
That is ONLY IF YOU ARE USING THE TOOLS.
Which you aren't until 10+ level, thank you. Esp as an NPC.
==Aelryinth
@Aelryinth: I think both Kazaan and I thought you were saying the Amazing Tools were at 1/3, since it appeared to be my post you replied to. Apparently we did not understand your point.
Moving on...
You said "HWalsh: The Craft DC for plate armor is DC 19, or 10+AC. The masterwork component is treated separately and is DC 20."
This is true when the MW is a separate price added to the base price. Is this true when the base price is for the masterwork item? Mithral is not an additional cost, so is the DC 19 or 20?
/cevah
All rare material armor is automatically required to be masterwork, so, yes, you do have the double DC's.
Why the DC doesn't increase for using fantastic materials is a whole nuther topic.
==Aelryinth
All rare material armor is automatically required to be masterwork, so, yes, you do have the double DC's.
Do you mean that each day(week) I need to make 2 checks? One at DC 19 and One at DC 20.
I would just use the harder of the two for a single check.
/cevah
One of the problems with the system is the design concept of "If it can be done in any possible way, then it can also be done via a magical spell". Fabricate should be nerfed to not being able to create masterwork equipment, and to not be able to create items out of non-standard materials.
Now you have to explain how Mithral heavy armors are relatively available as professional smiths should take YEARS crafting that stuff if they don't resort in skill hoarding shenanigans.
No, you have to make one check per week. You're either working on the masterwork component, or the plain armor. Mithril armor is not complete until both checks are done. You don't get to do twice as much work just because there's two things that need to be done.
And no, one roll doesn't apply to both checks, ever.
Normally, you're going to just take 10, anyways.
==Aelryinth
One of the problems with the system is the design concept of "If it can be done in any possible way, then it can also be done via a magical spell". Fabricate should be nerfed to not being able to create masterwork equipment, and to not be able to create items out of non-standard materials.Now you have to explain how Mithral heavy armors are relatively available as professional smiths should take YEARS crafting that stuff if they don't resort in skill hoarding shenanigans.
1) Because once crafted, the stuff doesn't rust and lasts nigh on forever.
2) because there's heavy demand for it among people who have money.
3) Because the profit margin is huge, and its a downtime project that you can always work on to generate profit in the future. "Nothing on contract? I'll put in another week on the breastplate, then." It'll pay off in the future.
The easiest way to nerf Fabricate is simply make it sub for one day's crafting check, and you have to roll for it. That makes it instantly valuable for making simple things quickly, which is the way the spell was meant to be used, NOT for making high-margin items instantly. It's still an accelerant, but the gold bias isn't anywhere near as extreme.
I'd personally also include negative effects, esp if you are dealing with poisons. You could so totally poison yourself with a Fabricate check, as you aren't handling the magic correctly.
==Aelryinth
Nobleman: "You there, Whitesmith (the correct term for one who makes jewelery, btw), I would like for you to craft a fine gold ring for me, and set this already cut, but very fake, diamond into it."
Whitesmith: "Of course m'lord"
*they discuss details, the Whitesmith tells the noble it will take X days, based on his knowledge of the value of the materials, and how crafting works.*
*days pass, and the Noble returns*
Whitesmith: "M'lord, here you are, as you requested"
Noble: "Thank you Whitesmith, but I must confess, I lied to you: This is, in fact, a real diamond worth over ten thousand gold! I didn't want to tell you for fear you might steal it!"
*diamond falls out of ring, as the required time to make it clearly hasn't been fulfilled*
Hrm... Crafting rules seem to be dumb.
How long will it take to make fullplate? I dunno, what seems reasonable, two weeks, maybe a month? Just do that.
Nobleman: "You there, Whitesmith (the correct term for one who makes jewelery, btw), I would like for you to craft a fine gold ring for me, and set this already cut, but very fake, diamond into it."
Whitesmith: "Of course m'lord"
*they discuss details, the Whitesmith tells the noble it will take X days, based on his knowledge of the value of the materials, and how crafting works.*
*days pass, and the Noble returns*
Whitesmith: "M'lord, here you are, as you requested"
Noble: "Thank you Whitesmith, but I must confess, I lied to you: This is, in fact, a real diamond worth over ten thousand gold! I didn't want to tell you for fear you might steal it!"
*diamond falls out of ring, as the required time to make it clearly hasn't been fulfilled*
Hrm... Crafting rules seem to be dumb.
How long will it take to make fullplate? I dunno, what seems reasonable, two weeks, maybe a month? Just do that.
The time to craft the diamond would be included in the cost of the diamond, it's a separate component. In short, the Crafting for that diamond as part of the Ring was already done!
He's just crafting the ring to hold the completed gem. That portion of the jewelry item is likely only 50 gp or something.
Unless he's tacking on additional material cost for the ring, he'd have it completed on the exact same time. So, a Ring worth 10,500 gp because a 10k diamond is inset in it will take the exact same time to make as a 550 gp ring with a 50 gp diamelle inset into it as an extra.
NOW...try to justify the crafting times for a 5000 gp or higher level gem. That'll get quickly crazy.
==Aelryinth
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Using the OP's math, +70 to Craft while taking 10 is DC 80 craft.
Using Unchained craft rules has several advantages:
Now 1/4 cost instead of 1/3 cost
Heavy armor is usually a Complex item (DC 20), but you have to increase complexity two steps for Masterwork items made with special material, so Mithral Full Plate is a Very Intricate item (DC 30) with a base progress per day of 16gp.
Now, Unchained craft doubles the progress per day for every 5 you exceed the DC, so:
DC 35: x2
DC 40: x3
DC 45: x4
DC 50: x5
DC 55: x6
DC 60: x7
DC 65: x8
DC 70: x9
DC 75: x10
DC 80: x11
So if taking 10 is DC 80, your daily progess is 176gp worth.
For a 10500gp mithral full plate, that's 60 days (two months), which is faster than the 5 months shown by the OP using the Core rules.
Furthermore, Unchained lets you use up to 10 laborers per day using Aid Another (if your DM considers this suit of armor "large or complex item"), which lets you add another +20 to the check result, for a total of DC 100 (16gp x 15 per day = 240gp per day; 10500/240= 44 days)
Furthermore, Unchained gives you a bonus for Masterwork work spaces, but you'll need trained laborers with +5 to craft (4sp per day each, so 4gp total per day for 10 of them; +5gp per day for masterwork space; so 9gp per day total); using this setup lets you bump the Aid Another bonus from +2 to +3, so now the total craft DC per day is 110, so: (16*17=272; 10500/272= 39 days; so 5 days faster, but at a cost of 39*9gp=351gp extra)
When looking at the above, I think "not bad... craft rules are pretty much balanced now"
In my upcoming campaign, I have further modified the Unchained rules with the following:
1. you compare your TOTAL CRAFT CHECK against Unchained Table 2-4; use the the highest listed progress per day (i.e. if your Craft DC is 35 or more, you basically always use 32gp as a base progress per day)
2. every 5 you exceed the DC, double that, as per the normal rule... (this basically prevent the silliness of MW slings having only a base progress per day of 1gp...)
So in the example above, this DC 80 would be x10 instead of x11, but it's now 32gp x 10 = 320gp, instead of 16gp x 11 = 176 gp per day. This means 33 days to craft.
If you use the 10 trained laborers and masterwork space, it's now: 32x16=512gp per day, which means 10500/512= 21 days to craft (3 weeks full time, or four weeks if you are restricted to 5-day work weeks)
Using the OP's math, +70 to Craft while taking 10 is DC 80 craft.
Using Unchained craft rules has several advantages:
Now 1/4 cost instead of 1/3 cost
Heavy armor is usually a Complex item (DC 20), but you have to increase complexity two steps for Masterwork items made with special material, so Mithral Full Plate is a Very Intricate item (DC 30) with a base progress per day of 16gp.
Now, Unchained craft doubles the progress per day for every 5 you exceed the DC, so:
DC 35: x2
DC 40: x3
DC 45: x4
DC 50: x5
DC 55: x6
DC 60: x7
DC 65: x8
DC 70: x9
DC 75: x10
DC 80: x11So if taking 10 is DC 80, your daily progess is 176gp worth.
For a 10500gp mithral full plate, that's 60 days (two months), which is faster than the 5 months shown by the OP using the Core rules.
Furthermore, Unchained lets you use up to 10 laborers per day using Aid Another (if your DM considers this suit of armor "large or complex item"), which lets you add another +20 to the check result, for a total of DC 100 (16gp x 15 per day = 240gp per day; 10500/240= 44 days)
Furthermore, Unchained gives you a bonus for Masterwork work spaces, but you'll need trained laborers with +5 to craft (4sp per day each, so 4gp total per day for 10 of them; +5gp per day for masterwork space; so 9gp per day total); using this setup lets you bump the Aid Another bonus from +2 to +3, so now the total craft DC per day is 110, so: (16*17=272; 10500/272= 39 days; so 5 days faster, but at a cost of 39*9gp=351gp extra)
When looking at the above, I think "not bad... craft rules are pretty much balanced now"
In my upcoming campaign, I have further modified the Unchained rules with the following:
1. you compare your TOTAL CRAFT CHECK against Unchained Table 2-4; use the the highest listed progress per day (i.e. if your Craft DC is 35 or more, you basically always use 32gp as a base progress per day)
2. every 5 you exceed the DC, double that, as per the normal rule... (this basically prevent the silliness of MW slings having only a...
So, the craft rules in Unchained work pretty well.....for a 20th level PC wealth, dedicated smith, with a 16th level Alchemist assistant, and an army of 19th level Bards singing his praises as he works...???
No, the rules are still useless.
No, you have to make one check per week. You're either working on the masterwork component, or the plain armor. Mithril armor is not complete until both checks are done. You don't get to do twice as much work just because there's two things that need to be done.
And no, one roll doesn't apply to both checks, ever.
Mithril Fullplate is 10,500 gp, and is considered masterwork.
What is the DC?Fullplate is +9 AC, so DC is 19.
Mithral is masterwork, so DC is 20.
But Mithral Fullplate is not base fullplate + mithral, but is fullplate made of mithral. Therefore, there is no base cost to manufacture before adding the masterwork component. The price is a single unit, not a composition of two components. You cannot make steel fullplate, and then say I will add 9,000 gp and convert steel into mithral.
This is why I think it should be DC 20 with no part at DC 19. Above, you seem think that mithral is added to armor.
Nobleman: "You there, Whitesmith (the correct term for one who makes jewelery, btw),...
Actually, it started as Blacksmith (worked the base metals) and Whitesmith (worked the refined metals). The whitesmith made more than jewelry. Later, the whitesmith seperated out into the goldsmith, silversmith, tinsmith, and so on.
Trying to look it up, I found whitesmith which indicates it is a finisher of forged stuff from a blacksmith. :-//cevah
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So, the craft rules in Unchained work pretty well.....for a 20th level PC wealth, dedicated smith, with a 16th level Alchemist assistant, and an army of 19th level Bards singing his praises as he works...???
No, the rules are still useless.
...and the example by the OP used the second-most expensive nonmagical armor in the book, something that was so rare in 2nd edition that there was probably only one or two available throughout the entire Forgotten Realms...
...apply the math to a regular full plate and you'll see it's pretty much balanced now (if you're still not satisfied use Google fu to check how fast it took to build one in real-life back in the middle ages)
"My fighter can't cast wish! the fighter is still useless!" honestly folks...
Technically, it's a jeweler or a finesmith as a finisher. Whitesmith is someone who works on non-ferrous metals, for the most part.
You're over thinking it. Mithril full plate is shorthand for Masterwork Mithril Fullplate. It's the same thing. There's nothing different or special about it. You do it the exact same way you do masterwork normally.
I.e. is it masterwork at the beginning? Masterwork at the end? Whatever, it won't be complete until both sets are done. It'll be something in the middle of being crafted.
So, when you're working on the masterwork portion, you're rolling for DC 20. When you're working on the standard plate armor, you're rolling against 19.
Your armor will not be complete until both are taken care of. If the cost is 10,500, masterwork represents 150 gp of that cost, just like normal, and 10,350 represents the normal other work. Actually, I believe the 1,500 gp cost is the cost of the masterwork full plate.
==Aelryinth
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@Aelryinth: Mithral armor does not have a 150 gp MW component (or 1,500 gp). By its very nature, it is ALL masterwork. I think that is why you keep saying it has two parts at different DCs. It is really only one thing. Read up on Special Materials and how some are MW and others are not.
/cevah
cevah, you are being difficult.
Mithral armor is expressly masterwork armor, that means it has a masterwork component.
Thus it follows the masterwork rules, and you must complete that component to finish the armor. Otherwise you just have a set of normal armor that cost a hellacious amount of money.
You are trying to draw a line where there is not one.
The rules describe it as a masterwork component, but that just basically means there's a level of work that needs to get done above the mundane.
Masterwork plate armor is ALL masterwork. There is no 'this part is masterwork and this part is not.' What it is, is a little 'something extra' done to the armor that brings out that -1 ACP feature, as part of the overall construction. It's still ALL masterwork, there's no 'partly is and partly isn't'. You can't, for instance, take a completed set of armor and 'make' it masterwork. It must be designated masterwork before the work is completed on it.
I'm not sure where your misunderstanding is coming from. It's like you think there's something you 'add' to normal armor to make it masterwork.
No. What masterwork is, is 'extra work' done to an item to make it a grade above and beyond the normal. The ENTIRE ITEM always ends up masterwork. It's not like magic, where you weave your fingers and do something to an object.
You either have an all masterwork completed item, or an all mundane completed item.
And mithril armor is masterwork armor, you have to satisfy the masterwork component. Which is trivially easy and only a small fraction of the true cost of the suit. It's just that according to the rules, adding 'masterwork' to the quality level has a set DC and set effects that are in addition to the normal costs of making the item.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth / Cevah: Unchained has done away with the silly MW component. A longsword is a normal item and a MW longsword has is a complex item. The DC to craft a normal item is 15, and the DC to craft a complex item is 20. Normal items have a base rate of 2gp progress per day; complex items have a base rate of 4gp per day.
In our case here, heavy armor are complex (DC 20), masterwork heavy armor is intricate (DC 25) and masterwork special metal heavy armor are very intricate (DC 30).
That's the DC for the entire item, and the complexity drives the progress gp per day. No more silliness. I highly recommend you detach yourselves from the MW component Core concept: they fixed it for a reason...
I'm just quoting core rules, PDK. I'm not attached to ANY of it.
==Aelryinth
You're over thinking it. Mithril full plate is shorthand for Masterwork Mithril Fullplate. It's the same thing. There's nothing different or special about it. You do it the exact same way you do masterwork normally.
I.e. is it masterwork at the beginning? Masterwork at the end? Whatever, it won't be complete until both sets are done. It'll be something in the middle of being crafted.
So, when you're working on the masterwork portion, you're rolling for DC 20. When you're working on the standard plate armor, you're rolling against 19.
Mithral armor is expressly masterwork armor, that means it has a masterwork component.
Thus it follows the masterwork rules, and you must complete that component to finish the armor. Otherwise you just have a set of normal armor that cost a hellacious amount of money.
The rules describe it as a masterwork component, but that just basically means there's a level of work that needs to get done above the mundane.
Masterwork plate armor is ALL masterwork. There is no 'this part is masterwork and this part is not.' What it is, is a little 'something extra' done to the armor that brings out that -1 ACP feature, as part of the overall construction. It's still ALL masterwork, there's no 'partly is and partly isn't'. You can't, for instance, take a completed set of armor and 'make' it masterwork. It must be designated masterwork before the work is completed on it.
I'm not sure where your misunderstanding is coming from. It's like you think there's something you 'add' to normal armor to make it masterwork.
No. What masterwork is, is 'extra work' done to an item to make it a grade above and beyond the normal. The ENTIRE ITEM always ends up masterwork. It's not like magic, where you weave your fingers and do something to an object.
You either have an all masterwork completed item, or an all mundane completed item.
And mithril armor is masterwork armor, you have to satisfy the masterwork component. Which is trivially easy and only a small fraction of the true cost of the suit. It's just that according to the rules, adding 'masterwork' to the quality level has a set DC and set effects that are in addition to the normal costs of making the item.
==Aelryinth
Your earlier quote indicates there is a part of Mithral Full Plate that is DC 19, and another that is DC 20.
Your later quote indicates it is all DC 20.
Make up your mind.
I am being difficult because you are changing your argument.
I tried asking what portion of that 10,500 gp is DC 19 and what is DC 20.
I was expecting something like:
- 0 base (DC 19) and 10,500 masterwork (DC 20).
- 1350 base (DC 19) and 9150 masterwork (DC 20).
- 1500 base (DC 19) and 9000 masterwork (DC 20).
- something else.
Instead of saying some figures, you go on and describe how you cannot make a non-masterwork armor and then improve it*.
As to how the rules work, you have a base part at the lower DC, and the masterwork part at the higher DC. It must all be completed before the work is done. Even though the armor is all masterwork when finished, the rules break the crafting mechanics into two parts.
/cevah
*Masterwork Transformation
A Crafter does not use Masterwork Transformation. You cannot Craft a normal Item, THEN make it masterwork. You have to craft a MAsterwork Item.
Quit citing a spell as your source. Spells break rules, they don't SET THEM. Masterwork Transformation TRANSFORMS an entire object. It doesn't 'add masterwork element 1" to it. It makes it an entirely masterwork object! It's MAGIC!
The rules very, very, VERY clearly state you must craft the Masterwork COmponent of an item. That is a fixed +150 or 300 gp, depending if it is an armor or a weapon. It has a fixed DC of 20. A Masterwork component is not a badge or a modular piece. It is the Entire OBject being crafted to a higher standard!
The rest you craft normally. That is DC 19 for a set of full plate armor, 10+AC. The higher cost of mithral just means it takes longer to make the normal crafting part, the masterwork part is FIXED BY THE RULES.
I'm not sure what you are reading wrong. The rules are very, very clear on what you do when dealing with masterwork. WHY are you assuming that casting a spell is the equivalent of Crafting? By that paradigm, you can roll one check for any item and complete it, because you can do that with Fabricate, and you don't even need tools to make stuff!
I have no idea where your confusion is coming from. Read the craft rules. It is laid out right there.
The rules don't break it into TWO ITEMS, a 'before' and 'after' line you are trying to set.
They break it into 'Two things you must do to complete a masterwork item.'
'Masterwork' isn't like a plate you attach to an item and zing! it's higher quality.
It's something you do over the course of making the item to make it better.
It looks like you are trying to say "I make the item, THEN I make it masterwork."
No.
YOu make the item, and during the course of it you make craft checks and Masterwork checks. When all of these are done, you have a masterwork item.
There's no set time to 'work on masterwork' and 'work on normal item'. It's all one thing. You just have to meet the requirements for each element. It's assumed over the course of the item you are doing BOTH, but you don't get the benefits until you are actually done with the item.
Ergo, until you've fully satisfied the crafting and the masterwork requirements, that mithril full plate set you have there is just an expensive suit of plate mail in the process of being constructed. Since mithral REQUIRES it to be masterwork, if you don't make it masterwork, you get none of the benefits of mithral...it's just really pricy and maybe shiny armor.
Does that answer your questions? I really think you need to read the Crafting rules, and not spells which don't follow them (or magic items that don't, either).
==Aelryinth
Full Plate is 1,500 gp
PRD
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.
Type of Mithral Item .. Item Cost Modifier
Light armor .. +1,000 gp
Medium armor .. +4,000 gp
Heavy armor .. +9,000 gp
Shield .. +1,000 gp
Other items .. +500 gp/lb.
Therefore Mithral Full plate costs 1,500 gp + 9,000 gp = 10,500 gp. It is also masterwork by its very nature.
You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Equipment for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
The Mithral text above is specific rules that override the craft rules. Mithral does not call out how much of the 10,500 gp price of the armor is the masterwork cost, it just states it is included in the price. Like a number of other special materials, the masterwork cost is included and not called out. I see no clear indication that the masterwork part of the special material is also 150 gp. If it was that simple, why not just say these materials are only available on masterwork items, and the cost is (X-150) for armor. The way I read this, the entire 10,500 gp is the masterwork component. I think you don't agree, but since you don't want to answer with numbers, I cannot tell for sure.
A Crafter does not use Masterwork Transformation. You cannot Craft a normal Item, THEN make it masterwork. You have to craft a MAsterwork Item.
Nor did I say they did. I pointed out that magic lets you make a non-masterwork item, and later improve it to masterwork.
Quit citing a spell as your source. Spells break rules, they don't SET THEM. Masterwork Transformation TRANSFORMS an entire object. It doesn't 'add masterwork element 1" to it. It makes it an entirely masterwork object! It's MAGIC!
A footnote* that the statement was not 100% correct is not citing the spell as my source. It was only to call attention that magic does exist that breaks the rules.
The rules very, very, VERY clearly state you must craft the Masterwork COmponent of an item. That is a fixed +150 or 300 gp, depending if it is an armor or a weapon. It has a fixed DC of 20. A Masterwork component is not a badge or a modular piece. It is the Entire OBject being crafted to a higher standard!
That is the general rule. Masterwork tools are +50, usually. Some tools are listed as masterwork, but have a masterwork cost that is higher or lower. Masterwork Manacles and Fetters are +35. Masterwork Survival Kit is +45. Masterwork Thieves Tools are +70. Masterwork Musical Instruments are +95. As you can see, the number has lots of specific values other than +50, +150, or +300.
I'm not sure what you are reading wrong. The rules are very, very clear on what you do when dealing with masterwork. WHY are you assuming that casting a spell is the equivalent of Crafting? By that paradigm, you can roll one check for any item and complete it, because you can do that with Fabricate, and you don't even need tools to make stuff!
I briefly mention a particular spell, and you went off on a tangent. What are you reading? :-)
The rules don't break it into TWO ITEMS, a 'before' and 'after' line you are trying to set. They break it into 'Two things you must do to complete a masterwork item.'
I did not say there was two physical items. I said there were two crafting tasks. You call them "things" above, I called them "items".
/cevah
*This is a footnote
Mithral armor says it is a masterwork item.
Kindly point out where it says this changes the cost of making it masterwork. Kindly say where this means the mithral component is all treated as the new masterwork component.
(crickets)
Right then. Mithral armor must be masterwork. Masterwork includes a +150 gp cost component. Therefore, 150 gp of the cost is at dc 20.
"That is a fixed +150 or 300 gp, depending if it is an armor or a weapon." Mind telling me WHERE in that sentence you dredged up masterwork tools? Hint, they aren't there. WHy did you even mention them? Without looking, do the tools even have a component, like armor and weapons? I think they just have a fixed cost.
The rest of the armor is at DC 19 for 10,350 gp of work. That's all there is to it. You are reading in stuff which is not explicitly stated, so stop. Just use what rules are there, and be done with it.
==Aelryinth
Mithral armor says it is a masterwork item.
Kindly point out where it says this changes the cost of making it masterwork. Kindly say where this means the mithral component is all treated as the new masterwork component.
(crickets)Right then. Mithral armor must be masterwork. Masterwork includes a +150 gp cost component. Therefore, 150 gp of the cost is at dc 20.
"That is a fixed +150 or 300 gp, depending if it is an armor or a weapon."
A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.
Normal full plate armor is priced as steel. Mithral is not normal for that armor. It is a special material. This invalidates the "normal" assumption that is used for the +150 gp for masterwork.
My previous post listed the incremental cost of using Mithral. That cost does not say 150 gp of the cost goes into making it masterwork. It only states it includes the cost of masterwork. It also states that the material is masterwork no matter how used. Note the added cost is the same for all light armors, the same for all medium armors, and the same for all heavy armors. Yet each category of armor can very in weight a lot. That must mean that working in that material is hard to do the whole time, not just 150 gp worth.
Yes, you can read it as saying it is the same as non-special materials, but you can also read it as the entire thing is masterwork.
Note: for crickets to sound, you need to give them time to hear the silence. For a forum like this, that would likely be at least a day.
Mind telling me WHERE in that sentence you dredged up masterwork tools?Hint, they aren't there.WHy did you even mention them? Without looking, do the tools even have a component, like armor and weapons? I think they just have a fixed cost.
PRD (near the end of that topic)
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.
Every single item I listed has both a normal (common) cost version and a masterwork cost version. Try looking them up rather than claiming they don't exist. Most came in from 3E. I think some are even pulled in from 2E.
The rest of the armor is at DC 19 for 10,350 gp of work. That's all there is to it. You are reading in stuff which is not explicitly stated, so stop. Just use what rules are there, and be done with it.
OK. Finally, some numbers.
With this, I can easily see your point of view. Namely that only 150 gp is ever masterwork cost for any armor. I think the entire price is masterwork for special materials that claim masterwork status.
/cevah
okay, on the tools, I was absolutely correct, and you're wrong, and you're citing ME for an error?
they have a price as a masterwork tool, but there's no mention of them requiring a DC 20 masterwork component cost in their construction. did you even READ what I said? Or are you filling in a blank again, that because they are more valuable, suddenly they also have a DC20 Masterwork component cost that is not mentioned anywhere but for weapons and armor?
Yes, you did. You filled in something that is Not There, again.
Re: Mithral: What part of all that stuff you posted invalidates ANYTHING? The normal cost of mithral is that it is masterwork and + x depending on size. There is NOTHING there that says "hey, Here's a completely new rule for you, except we're not going to explain it, so don't refer to the actual rules we didn't even say didn't apply, just make up an argument and decide something new we aren't telling you to do!'
So, your logic continues to mystify, and the crickets are still chirping.
You are inserting wording where there is none, you are making up a rule that is not there by inference, and ignoring the rule that is there by arbitrarily saying that in this circumstance, it doesn't apply because mithral isn't 'normal'.
Sorry, mithril is VERY normal to itself, and the masterwork cost is included in the additional cost of mithral armor.
It's RIGHT THERE.
Nowhere does it say that mithral's cost is part of the masterwork component. Nowhere. None. It's just a material cost, and masterwork is a part of that cost, it is not a part of masterwork's cost. If it was, it would SAY SO.
So, you can go and House Rule, but you're acting against the rules by making up a new one where one does not exist.
And that's my final post on this.
==Aelryinth
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Imma let you get back to the bickering, but I just wanted to say: Roberta Yang's posts were some of the best of all time.
okay, on the tools,
they have a price as a masterwork tool, but there's no mention of them requiring a DC 20 masterwork component cost in their construction. did you even READ what I said? Or are you filling in a blank again, that because they are more valuable, suddenly they also have a DC20 Masterwork component cost that is not mentioned anywhere but for weapons and armor?I was absolutely correct, and you're wrong, and you're citing ME for an error?
Yes, you did. You filled in something that is Not There, again.
Yes, I am citing you in error.
Back up in post #92 I quoted this rule.You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Equipment for the price of other masterwork tools) and . Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
So you say I am making this up? Did you click the link to the PRD and find it is different?
Re: Mithral: What part of all that stuff you posted invalidates ANYTHING? The normal cost of mithral is that it is masterwork and + x depending on size. There is NOTHING there that says "hey, Here's a completely new rule for you, except we're not going to explain it, so don't refer to the actual rules we didn't even say didn't apply, just make up an argument and decide something new we aren't telling you to do!'
So, your logic continues to mystify,
and the crickets are still chirping.
Would not be the first time PF left out rules explaining something.
You read it one way, I another. 'Nuff said.
Sorry, mithril is VERY normal to itself, and the masterwork cost is included in the additional cost of mithral armor.
It's RIGHT THERE.
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard.
Normal = common, ordinary. How many suits of Mithral armor are there? Adventurers grab a lot, but armies and guards don't, and they outnumber adventurers by a large amount. Normal armor is leather and/or steel.
Nowhere does it say that mithral's cost is part of the masterwork component. Nowhere. None. It's just a material cost, and masterwork is a part of that cost, it is not a part of masterwork's cost. If it was, it would SAY SO.
Here we disagree.
So, you can go and House Rule, but you're acting against the rules by making up a new one where one does not exist.
Is it a house rule to work by the rules as you understand them? I don't think so. It may be a misunderstanding, but not a house rule. House rules are: The rules say X, we say Y instead.
/cevah
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*sigh* Ok, so this whole argument about mithral being masterwork and whether it does or does not have a masterwork component or whatever...
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below
So that 150 gold is rolled into the 9000 gold cost of the item we're discussing. It doesn't mean that the masterwork component doesn't exist, it doesn't mean you don't have to make two checks as normal with masterwork items, and it doesn't mean that the full 9000 is part of the masterwork cost. It doesn't say that the mithral cost replaces the masterwork cost, or that the masterwork cost is equal to the special material cost; it specifies that the masterwork cost is included in the special material cost.
If it'll make things simpler, break down the price like this: Fullplate 1200 + mithral 8850 + masterwork 150 = 10200
I think the best crafter for such stuff is a wizard with the Fabricate spell.
If you argue you can't craft masterwork that way... cast Masterwork Transformation on it when you're done.
And you don't even have to be level 20 for it.