I was messing around, and decided to make a Paladin of Shelyn based off of a miniature I found on the internet.
Well, in the picture (Won't/can't link because of NSFW content on the site) the miniature is what I would describe as half-plate in Pathfinder terms.
Much to my chagrin.
Half-plate: 600 gp +8 +0 –7 40% 50 lbs.
For what reason does HALF a suit of plate armor weigh as much as a full suit of plate? Why is it actually LESS wieldly to wear than a full suit?
'But Lithdoran' you might cry 'It is patched with chainmail!'
And? if we divide full-plate's weight by 2, we get 25, if we divide a chainmail's weight by 2, we get 20. Adding them together, we get 45. Still 5 lbs LESS than a full plate suit.
Not to mention the fact that chain is fairly fluid.
What I propose:
Half-plate: Same cost +6 +2 -6 Spell Failure 30%, 40lbs
This leaves us with +8 as our effective armor bonus, and makes Half-Plate WORTH using.(Maybe we could up the cost to like 750gp)
Thoughts?
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Always wondered about half-plate myself. Seemed completely inferior to any other armor choice, both in cost, bulk, and protection. Seems like no matter how you stack things, there is no reason to ever spend money on (or wear) half-plate. Ever. I'd go a step down and get banded mail instead and live with that -1 difference in AC for the cost, or just shell out the cash for the real deal full plate. If you're stuck with it, or if money problems and item availability force your hand, you take what you got, but otherwise my eye kind of skips over the entry entirely.
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Half-plate is not simply half a suit of full plate with some chain. A lot of work goes into making full plate (even non-masterwork full plate is designed to fit one specific person), and the quality of the materials and techniques used means the suit can be made thinner while still preserving its strength.
Half-plate would be a form of munition-grade armor. Mass-produced, and of inferior quality (still, kind of expensive for mass-produced). Since the materials and techniques used are inferior to full plate, the armor must be made thicker to compensate. Hence, the added weight and increased encumbrance (ACP and ASF). (And a suit of half-plate can fit anyone of the appropriate size, just as mass-produced armor should.)
Half-plate is not simply half a suit of full plate with some chain. A lot of work goes into making full plate (even non-masterwork full plate is designed to fit one specific person), and the quality of the materials and techniques used means the suit can be made thinner while still preserving its strength.
Half-plate would be a form of munition-grade armor. Mass-produced, and of inferior quality (still, kind of expensive for mass-produced). Since the materials and techniques used are inferior to full plate, the armor must be made thicker to compensate. Hence, the added weight and increased encumbrance (ACP and ASF). (And a suit of half-plate can fit anyone of the appropriate size, just as mass-produced armor should.)
The problem with that is, half suits of plate are also forged for a specific person, when you're in psuedo-medieval settings, most armor that uses plated metal, will be forged to fit the wearer.
Even breastplates, which were the most common for a man-at-arms to wear, would have to have his breastplate sized, lest he risk not being able to swing his weapon properly, or the armor not working as intended.
The point of half-plate is that it sacrifices protection value for maneuverability, so they wouldn't make the plates much thicker.
Half plate has awful stats because it's 900g cheaper than Full Plate.
This matters at very low levels, where 1500g is a small fortune. Or at the very least, this is how it appears to me.
And Banded Mail is one sixth the price of full plate, and it has better stats than half-plate.
A breastplate is 50gp cheaper than that. Price is not and should not be the determining factor of whether an item should be useable without sacrificing optimization.
The issue is that by trying to realistically analogue half-plate and price it based off comparable earth costs, the end result is that in Golarion, there exists a type of armor that nobody wears.
If you're worried about cost, you're going to go with Banded Mail or a Breast Plate. If you aren't worried about cost, you're going with Full Plate.
Within the Golarion reality, Half-Plate is a type of armor that offers no advantages of any kind. It's basically an artifact from a time before Full Plate was able to be successfully crafted and Half-Plate was the top tier. As soon as people figured out Full Plate, Half Plate immediately became obsolete. Essentially, Half-Plate only exists now in historical collections or armor exhibits, probably owned by rich eccentric dwarves.
It's highly unlikely they're going to go out of their way to fix it, because even with your changes, it's still awful.
Fluff Full Plate or Banded Mail or a Breastplate as Half Plate and poof, problem solved. I can't imagine a DM who would have a serious problem with that.
My problem with this is that it feels like a cop-out, and that it feels like we're making excuses for poor mechanics.
The issue is that by trying to realistically analogue half-plate and price it based off comparable earth costs, the end result is that in Golarion, there exists a type of armor that nobody wears.
If you're worried about cost, you're going to go with Banded Mail or a Breast Plate. If you aren't worried about cost, you're going with Full Plate.
Within the Golarion reality, Half-Plate is a type of armor that offers no advantages of any kind. It's basically an artifact from a time before Full Plate was able to be successfully crafted and Half-Plate was the top tier. As soon as people figured out Full Plate, Half Plate immediately became obsolete.
Thing is, I don't always play in Golarion, sometimes I play in Homebrew settings or Eberron or something. Even then, what about the freedom of choice?
Most players will choose the optimal choice IE: Studded Leather/Chain Shirt, Breastplate, Banded Mail (for low levels and the poor), and Full Plate. Why don't we just remove all other options entirely?
I'm of the opinion that we should try to make every piece of armor have some advantage for wearing it. I realize that there will never be a perfect balance, but it feels like anything outside of those four choices punishes you.
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You and your players are fully capable of wearing not-mechancically-optimal armor. No one is stopping you, and the difference is only like to matter every now and then.
Go ahead, implement your house rule. It's better than the Half Plate listed in the book. That's the point, right? If it's mechanics you're actually complaining about, then you can just as easily have the DM house rule that Half Plate has the same stats as some other armor, like a Breastplate or Banded Armor. Done.
I had a Paladin who wore "Light Plate Armor" for the entirety of a very short campaign. It was renamed Banded Armor, and my DM was totally fine with it.
You and your players are fully capable of wearing not-mechancically-optimal armor. No one is stopping you, and the difference is only like to matter every now and then.
Go ahead, implement your house rule. It's better than the Half Plate listed in the book. That's the point, right? If it's mechanics you're actually complaining about, then you can just as easily have the DM house rule that Half Plate has the same stats as some other armor, like a Breastplate or Banded Armor. Done.
I had a Paladin who wore "Light Plate Armor" for the entirety of a very short campaign. It was renamed Banded Armor, and my DM was totally fine with it.
Of course we're capable of wearing non-optimal items, but, what would ever possess us to do so? If everyone wants their character to contribute, why would anyone chose non-optimal armor when they can just re-fluff optimal armor.
It's not just Half-Plate I'm b&~+#ing about, it's every piece of armor NOT the Optimal 4. They're essentially just filler for filler sake, which is just bad design.
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I'm totally fine with them replacing all the armors with generic Light, Medium and Heavy armors (with Studded Leather or Chain Shirt, Breastplate and Full Plate stats), but that's another house rule.
I'm just saying, they're there for people who want to use them. Some people LIKE not using the best mechanical option.
I'm totally fine with them replacing all the armors with generic Light, Medium and Heavy armors (with Studded Leather or Chain Shirt, Breastplate and Full Plate stats), but that's another house rule.
I'm just saying, they're there for people who want to use them. Some people LIKE not using the best mechanical option.
That's an idea. Remove actual armor entries and replace them with 'Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor' and give them a set starting price point and stats, and depending on the amount of gold extra you pay, you can increase certain things (Like AC or Max Dex.) or decrease others (Like Spell Failure or ACP or Weight).
Or it could be a zero sum system where you choose a generic armor class, and you get a certain number of points, that you can distribute into AC and Max Dex, but your weight scales based on how much AC you have, and your Spell Fail scales with Max Dex, with ACP being based on weight.
This way, you can just fluff it as whatever you want.
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In real life full plate is more maneuverable than half-plate. Why then, would it be any different in Pathfinder?
In real life full plate is more maneuverable than half-plate. Why then, would it be any different in Pathfinder?
I would love to join you in this reality you live in, but, sadly, I am stuck here, in the reality where your statement is bull.
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the optimal armors are
light
studded leather
chain shirt
silken ceremonial armor (for arcanists without armored casting, rogues with absurdly high dexterity, or those worried about encumbrance)
medium
breastplate
kikko
heavy
banded mail (for those who cannot afford full plate or O-Yoroi)
o-yoroi
full plate
when you factor special materials you get
light
darkleaf studded leather
mithril chain shirt
mithril kikko (2970 GP more than a mithril chain shirt for an extra +1 AC and all the other same statistics otherwise)
silken ceremonial armor (no dex cap, spell failure nor check penalty)
darkleaf hide (mithril chain shirt for druids)
mithril breastplate (take additional traits, for armor expert and you can wear it without the feat)
mithril celestial plate (pricey, but +12 AC w/ +8 max dex, no check penalty and a less than 20% arcane failure rate)
mithril celestial armor (+10 max dex, no check penalty. same weight as a mithril chain shirt.)
celestial armor
medium
mithril full plate (requires heavy armor proficiency.)
celestial full plate
mithril O-Yoroi
if money isn't even an object and you have enough to waste on armor without a worry. you could get a suit of mithril celestial plate just because it is literally the best armor in the entire game.
In real life full plate is more maneuverable than half-plate. Why then, would it be any different in Pathfinder?I would love to join you in this reality you live in, but, sadly, I am stuck here, in the reality where your statement is bull.
That seemed needlessly antagonistic to me. Perhaps you could explain why you find Ravingdork's statement wrong instead of flat out calling it a falsity.
Also, to quote Ultimate Equipment PG 11:
Half-plate armor combines elements of full plate and chainmail, incorporating several sizable plates of sculpted metal with an underlying mesh of chain links. While this suit protects vital areas with several layers of armor, it is not sculpted to a single individual’s frame, reducing its wearer’s mobility even more than a suit of full plate. Half-plate armor includes gauntlets and a helm.
This implies that half-plate is mass produced and there by not as effective as full plate because of it.
That aside, not all armors are going to be "optimal" that would go against the reality that must exist in these games. Is leather armor going to be as good as chain? No but it's cheaper and more readily available. Is hide armor going to be as good as a breastplate? No but same as above. The "less optimal" armor is included because these armors existed and people tended to wear them more often than the usually harder to get a hold of and expensive "optimal" armors. Just simply how this works.
I place optimal and less optimal in quotation marks because those are terms that really shouldn't be used since the main goal of playing Pathfinder/D&D is generally to have fun not building optimized characters. Sure I could make the ultimate Rogue wearing special magical mithril plate that is as easy to move in as light armor but that generally doesn't fit the theme of a Rogue as well as some dark colored leathers.
That seemed needlessly antagonistic to me. Perhaps you could explain why you find Ravingdork's statement wrong instead of flat out calling it a falsity.Also, to quote Ultimate Equipment PG 11:
Half-plate armor combines elements of full plate and chainmail, incorporating several sizable plates of sculpted metal with an underlying mesh of chain links. While this suit protects vital areas with several layers of armor, it is not sculpted to a single individual’s frame, reducing its wearer’s mobility even more than a suit of full plate. Half-plate armor includes gauntlets and a helm.This implies that half-plate is mass produced and there by not as effective as full plate because of it.
That aside, not all armors are going to be "optimal" that would go against the reality that must exist in these games. Is leather armor going to be as good as chain? No but it's cheaper and more readily available. Is hide armor going to be as good as a breastplate? No but same as above. The "less optimal" armor is included because these armors existed and people tended to wear them more often than the usually harder to get a hold of and expensive "optimal" armors. Just simply how this works.
I place optimal and less optimal in quotation marks because those are terms that really shouldn't be used since the main goal of playing Pathfinder/D&D is generally to have fun not building optimized characters. Sure I could make the ultimate Rogue wearing special magical mithril plate that is as easy to move in as light armor but that generally doesn't fit the theme of a Rogue as well as some dark colored leathers.
You're right, that was uncalled for, and I apologize.
Now, onto the rest of your post. Even though it's a mass-produced armor, the stats still represent it poorly.
Even if you do thicken the plates the AC should be higher to represent that, and the weight should still be lower.
And of course not every armor is going to be as optimal as another, but there should atleast be SOME reason I should want to pick a non-optimal piece over an optimal piece.
Take your Rogue example, you have a Rogue in leather, and a Rogue in a Mithril Breastplate. Maybe the Rogue in Leather would get a bonus to sneak because he's not in a bright, conspicuous breastplate? Or because he's not clanking around?
Yar.
Take your Rogue example, you have a Rogue in leather, and a Rogue in a Mithril Breastplate. Maybe the Rogue in Leather would get a bonus to sneak because he's not in a bright, conspicuous breastplate? Or because he's not clanking around?
... uhm, they do. It's called the Armor Check Penalty. It applies to stealth checks, and breastplate has a higher penalty to it than leather does.
Leather is ACP 0. Breastplate is ACP -4. Mithral Breastplate is ACP -1. That 1 point is still a 1 point difference, and in this game, that one point can make all the difference.
~P
I've wondered the same thing myself, actually. I always wanted half plate to be something other than what it was, but I never could find house rules to support that.
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Yar.
Take your Rogue example, you have a Rogue in leather, and a Rogue in a Mithril Breastplate. Maybe the Rogue in Leather would get a bonus to sneak because he's not in a bright, conspicuous breastplate? Or because he's not clanking around?... uhm, they do. It's called the Armor Check Penalty. It applies to stealth checks, and the breast plate has a much higher penalty to it than leather does.
~P
I can't believe I was ninja'd by a pirate... but yes the Pirate has it right. The ACP shows that clanky metal armor makes it harder to stealth around compared to leather. Now, Mithral also helps lower the ACP but it still has a(admittedly marginally) higher ACP than normal leather.
Now I'm not saying half-plate isn't poorly stated from a game standpoint, it's obvious mechanically a fair bit less optimal than full plate. I just don't think it's a problem most of the time. My half-orc Paladin did just fine in his half-plate from levels 2-12. My GM gave me some full plate at one point, but by then my character had become rather attached to the armor that he'd faced a horde of demons in and I just got it magically enchanted instead.
I tend to pick armor based on the character at creation and if it makes sense upgrade to a more optimal choice later. My Paladin was for example a mostly self-taught Paladin so he wasn't part of a full order so it didn't make sense for him to have nice shiny suit of full plate, so he had some hobbled together half-plate.
I will give you that the weight should be a few pounds less, though no more than 5 pounds IMO. However, regardless of what kind of changes we want them to make the core armors are part of the Core Rulebook and also part of the d20 srd as established by 3.5, they're VERY unlikely to change it at this point in time.
In real life full plate is more maneuverable than half-plate. Why then, would it be any different in Pathfinder?I would love to join you in this reality you live in, but, sadly, I am stuck here, in the reality where your statement is bull.
It isn't bull. Full plate is fitted to a specific wearer, and is therefore snugger on the body. This increased maneuverability, because the weight is more evenly distributed. Half plate, meanwhile, is not fitted to a specific wearer, so it's weight is less snug, making it more difficult to maneuver. It is also made from inferior metals, so it has to be thicker than full plate to offer good protection, which means more weight. This all leads to full plate being the more maneuverable suit of armor.
Even if you do thicken the plates the AC should be higher to represent that, and the weight should still be lower.
Not necessarily. The metal is of worse quality than with full plate, so it offers less protection, even if it is thicker. Weight does not translate into protective value, so that's a non-factor.
Maximillian Plate armor was so well fitted and designed it was almost impervious to crossbow and light firearms while still allowing the wearer to go jogging in it. The design let the corrugated metal carry most of the weight around the knight, not on them.
But I am only a hobby researcher. I'm sure someone who actually makes armor would know better if those stats are accurate.
The problem with that is, half suits of plate are also forged for a specific person, when you're in psuedo-medieval settings, most armor that uses plated metal, will be forged to fit the wearer.
Even breastplates, which were the most common for a man-at-arms to wear, would have to have his breastplate sized, lest he risk not being able to swing his weapon properly, or the armor not working as intended.
The point of half-plate is that it sacrifices protection value for maneuverability, so they wouldn't make the plates much thicker.
This is False...
Half-Plate was made for the General shape of people not custom fitted same with a Breastplate. Think of it like modern military gear. The soldier can't afford to buy their own armour so it was usually provided by the Nation.
A fitted suit of armour takes to long to craft. It was normally reserved for the Elite of the Elite. Most Knights couldn't obtain fitted armour until they reached a certain level of prestige with the king. Even then it normally wasn't very well fitted.
Half-Plate wasn't for Maneuverability it was for Saving money.
That said I am curious as to the mini. Mind PMing me the url?
mithril kikko (2970 GP more than a mithril chain shirt for an extra +1 AC and all the other same statistics otherwise)
Except the chain shirt is light, and the kikko is medium (even despite mithril, it requites armor proficiency). Matters sometimes.
With the money you need for a full plate mail you can almost get a half plate and a +1 large shield... if your character lacks dexterity it might be money better spent
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mithril kikko (2970 GP more than a mithril chain shirt for an extra +1 AC and all the other same statistics otherwise)Except the chain shirt is light, and the kikko is medium (even despite mithril, it requites armor proficiency). Matters sometimes.
mithril kikko has no check penalty. so you can be nonproficient and wear it with no drawbacks. since the only drawback of being nonproficient is that armor check penalty applies to attack rolls, which in the case of mithril kikko, is 0. (-3+3=0.) it still counts as light armor for everything else. class features, whether or not you can sleep in it, movement and so on.
Thing is, I don't always play in Golarion, sometimes I play in Homebrew settings or Eberron or something. Even then, what about the freedom of choice?Most players will choose the optimal choice IE: Studded Leather/Chain Shirt, Breastplate, Banded Mail (for low levels and the poor), and Full Plate. Why don't we just remove all other options entirely?
I'm of the opinion that we should try to make every piece of armor have some advantage for wearing it. I realize that there will never be a perfect balance, but it feels like anything outside of those four choices punishes you.
Actually... if you don't play in Golorian, then the answer is simple. DON'T include Half plate as an option!!!
Sounds a LITTLE snarky... but that's how it was in the 'real world' These games are about tossing 5000 years of warfare history spread throughout multiple civilizations and lump them all into a pile for 'creative' players to choose from.
In the real world it would have been nigh-impossible for Full Plate, Half-plate, Banded, and splint to all be in the same armory. Different cultures tried different things all going for the same goal.
Same with weapons. Sabers, scimitars, Same weapon, Same mentality went into the design... different cultures formed them differently.
In YOUR world... if there's no mechanical use for a certain item... then it shouldn't be there.
My OWN opinion on Half-plate...
I LIKE it. As Seranov pointed out above... it's cheaper then full plate.
I just started a Paladin... the classic knight in armor and could not AFFORD Full Plate. Even with the cheapish 'Rich Parents' trait. I COULD However afford Half-plate. add in a shield and he started at level one with AC 20
The vast majority of these armors are VERY similiar. There is only a 1 point diffference from one to the next.... Banded/splint is 7, Half plate is 8, Full plate is 9.
The POINT of Half plate... is that it's halfway from banded to Full. It's not nearly as good as full, and as soon as you get the money, you should absolutely upgrade. The same can be said for padded. What point is there for Padded when Leather is so vastly superior?
If all you have is banded, This gives you a +1 AC, if all you can afford the full, you get another +1AC. Which is really all you get from the 'Dodge' Feat, and that's fairly popular.
If you improve one armor too much, then there is no reason to upgrade...
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Half-plate is not simply half a suit of full plate with some chain. A lot of work goes into making full plate (even non-masterwork full plate is designed to fit one specific person), and the quality of the materials and techniques used means the suit can be made thinner while still preserving its strength.
Half-plate would be a form of munition-grade armor. Mass-produced, and of inferior quality (still, kind of expensive for mass-produced). Since the materials and techniques used are inferior to full plate, the armor must be made thicker to compensate. Hence, the added weight and increased encumbrance (ACP and ASF). (And a suit of half-plate can fit anyone of the appropriate size, just as mass-produced armor should.)
The problem with that is, half suits of plate are also forged for a specific person, when you're in psuedo-medieval settings, most armor that uses plated metal, will be forged to fit the wearer.
Even breastplates, which were the most common for a man-at-arms to wear, would have to have his breastplate sized, lest he risk not being able to swing his weapon properly, or the armor not working as intended.
The point of half-plate is that it sacrifices protection value for maneuverability, so they wouldn't make the plates much thicker.
The point of half-palte was definitely not sacrifice protection for mobility. It was the heaviest armor of its time.
Jeraa has the right of it. Full plate was not just better armor it represented a leap in technology. I could go on to tell you how full plate rests the weight of the armor on your hips like a good backpack rather than your shoulders like chainmail and chain and plate combinations and how it was made of better quality steel and shaped to deflect blows... but it all boils down to it was much beter.
Half-plate is a coble of older tech, small plates, mail, leather while fullplate is a whole new animal.
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D&D is a game that grew out of a simulationist wargame, and it retains many aspect of one. It's a game where historically inferior equipment has inferior stats. Historically, half-plates were inferior to full plates, except in cost/time to produce. Imagine playing a wargame where you play Nazi German WW2 armored forces, you get Panzer IV and Panther, the latter is superior in every possible way except for production costs. If you asked to make Panzer IV as "viable" as Panther and boost its stats, history/miltech fans would rightly answer that it's would completely false. Every German armored outfit commander would pick the Panther over Pz IV every time. Why didn't they get them? Well, because Pz IV was cheaper and faster to produce, just like half plate is vs. full plate.
You might ask "OK so since half plates are inferior in every way, let's remove them from the game altogether and make every heavy armor optimal in some way". That makes no sense as well. If the DM wants to challenge the players with an unit of NPC Warriors in heaviest possible mass produced armor, it's half-plate that fits the bill. If they were running around in full plates, a miltech/history buff at the table (and face it: they are a large chuck of the player base) would ask why the hell are those rank and file infantrymen clad in the most expensive, custom-made armor that only knights/lords could afford to buy?
D&D is a game that assumes that you are aware of the numbers and concious that not every choice is optimal. Wizards with Power Attack. Greatclub vs. greatsword. Same story here.
Thing to remember is that the Pathfinder rules for armor in general are bullshit. They're bullshit because they're based on the armor rules in 3.5 D&D, which were bullshit because they were based on the Rolemaster armor rules-- which are only marginally less bullshit because in Rolemaster armor proficiency actually mitigates the maneuver penalties for heavy armor. Somewhat.
Eliminate the maximum Dex bonus and halve ACPs for proficient users and you'll go a long way toward having armor rules that both are realistic and encourage characters to bother wearing the stuff.
Fair enough...
despite the historic details the names and stats are pretty confusing for every one who is not a historian.
As a player I would expect half plate to be something different than purely lesser armor. I mean... look at the explanation
Combining elements of full plate and chainmail, half-plate includes gauntlets and a helm.
that explanation alone makes me think that the armor check penalty will be more like 4 or 5 and at least one dex bonus... in other words more like field plate. In fact... I think using the
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to be perfectly honest I just think the entire armor list is one of those many many legacy holdovers that pathfinder could have, should have, and hopefully will change in any future iteration.
NOTE: it appears that when I hit send on this hours ago it got stuck and only just posted.
Actually, the only difference between Field Plate and Half-Plate is Field Plate used Banded Mail instead of Plates.
Using the Piecemeal Armour rules one can easily make Field Plate.
using the piecemeal armor rules you get half plate thats better than halfplate
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It's worth noting that simulation isn't everything. There has to be a compromise between the two or the game would either become abstract or literally impossible to play.
It's pretty clear that history was never priority number 1 in the 3.0 PHB and that hasn't changed since. Equipment is a mishmash of different eras, weights are off by a significant margin, longswords aren't actually longswords and anti-cavalry and anti-infantry weapons are completely interchangeable.
The fact is, the table is bloated with options that are almost always junk and historical accuracy just isn't the biggest factor in making equipment enjoyable.
It is not going to hurt if the GM puts the soldiers in banded mail instead and all plate is combined into one entry. It also wouldn't hurt to keep half-plate but make it a little bit better at something, even if it's not strictly optimal, that would help.
EDIT: Lumiere Dawnbringer, how is silken ceremonial armour ever better than a haramaki?
mithril kikko has no check penalty. so you can be nonproficient and wear it with no drawbacks. since the only drawback of being nonproficient is that armor check penalty applies to attack rolls, which in the case of mithril kikko, is 0. (-3+3=0.) it still counts as light armor for everything else. class features, whether or not you can sleep in it, movement and so on.mithril kikko (2970 GP more than a mithril chain shirt for an extra +1 AC and all the other same statistics otherwise)Except the chain shirt is light, and the kikko is medium (even despite mithril, it requites armor proficiency). Matters sometimes.
Cool, good to know.
Bards and Summoners are still a corner case, sadly.
And Banded Mail is one sixth the price of full plate, and it has better stats than half-plate.
It does? Looks like banded mail is only +7 AC, while half plate is +8.
Oh, wait, you mean half-plate has different tradeoffs than banded mail, and you are incapable of imagining that there is anyone in the entire campaign world who simultaneously has a Dexterity of less than 12, heavy armor proficiency, and not enough money to buy full plate.
Yeah, here, prepare to have your mind blown; some characters in some campaigns actually have stats that make half-plate a better choice than banded mail, because it has a higher AC bonus. Maybe they rolled dice. Maybe they had lower point buys than you're used to. Maybe they're warrior NPCs with the Basic Array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8) and enough intelligence and charisma to be his squad's leader, even if his reflexes aren't quite as good.
Whatever the reason, half-plate is actually the optimal choice for them, even if it isn't for any character you would build.
using the piecemeal armor rules you get half plate thats better than halfplate
Using the piecemeal armor rules breaks all sorts of things into little pieces.
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It's worth noting that simulation isn't everything. There has to be a compromise between the two or the game would either become abstract or literally impossible to play.
It's pretty clear that history was never priority number 1 in the 3.0 PHB and that hasn't changed since. Equipment is a mishmash of different eras, weights are off by a significant margin, longswords aren't actually longswords and anti-cavalry and anti-infantry weapons are completely interchangeable.
The fact is, the table is bloated with options that are almost always junk and historical accuracy just isn't the biggest factor in making equipment enjoyable.
It is not going to hurt if the GM puts the soldiers in banded mail instead and all plate is combined into one entry. It also wouldn't hurt to keep half-plate but make it a little bit better at something, even if it's not strictly optimal, that would help.EDIT: Lumiere Dawnbringer, how is silken ceremonial armour ever better than a haramaki?
the silken ceremonial armor and the haramaki are actually even. the advantages that silken ceremonial armor has cannot be measured by numbers alone. it could easily be fluffed as a heavy robe of whatever design you feel, actually provides modest bodily coverage without the need for an extra garment, saving the weight you would spend on an outfit, and it can be worn over light or medium armor to disguise said armor and provide a layer of protection against rust monsters.
nothing is worse than having your badass mithril kikko vest eaten by rust monsters. wearing silken ceremonial armor over it stops that. it is like blocking a divination spell with a lead sheet.
Lumiere: that's interesting, and now I see your point, as I, too, was wondering. I'm unsure if it really works to completely block rust monsters (I'd have to look at the rules), but I definitely like the idea.
Also, does anyone have a working image for silken ceremonial armor? A little picture-box with no picture is on the PFSRD page, and my googlefu is apparently pretty weak, as I can only come up with exactly one image of the stuff (and am unsure whether or not it's a valid image or just a case of image-and-word partial match/confusion on google's part).
For the record, on the SRD, I've used Google Chrome (where a little box indicates there should be an image, but none shows) and Firefox (where no image or box appears at all).
Lumiere: that's interesting, and now I see your point, as I, too, was wondering. I'm unsure if it really works to completely block rust monsters (I'd have to look at the rules), but I definitely like the idea.
Also, does anyone have a working image for silken ceremonial armor? A little picture-box with no picture is on the PFSRD page, and my googlefu is apparently pretty weak, as I can only come up with exactly one image of the stuff (and am unsure whether or not it's a valid image or just a case of image-and-word partial match/confusion on google's part).
For the record, on the SRD, I've used Google Chrome (where a little box indicates there should be an image, but none shows) and Firefox (where no image or box appears at all).
silken ceremonial armor, as i have looked at it, is a silken robelike garment with enough heavy layers to stop a knife.
Lumiere: that's interesting, and now I see your point, as I, too, was wondering. I'm unsure if it really works to completely block rust monsters (I'd have to look at the rules), but I definitely like the idea.
Also, does anyone have a working image for silken ceremonial armor? A little picture-box with no picture is on the PFSRD page, and my googlefu is apparently pretty weak, as I can only come up with exactly one image of the stuff (and am unsure whether or not it's a valid image or just a case of image-and-word partial match/confusion on google's part).
For the record, on the SRD, I've used Google Chrome (where a little box indicates there should be an image, but none shows) and Firefox (where no image or box appears at all).
It's shown in Ultimate Equipment, pretty much as Lumiere Dawnbringer describes: a robelike overgarment, with the material being densely layered over key areas.
Interesting history. Interesting thread.
Ah, that makes sense. Since the haramaki is lighter and cheaper, it's still the better option. There's nothing to stop you using a normal, cheaper robe to protect your armour from rust monsters if your GM allows that to work.
Also, from the description, I would assume you need something to wear under it. Otherwise you'd be like one of those perverts in giant brown coats.
The only reason I could see buying halfplate would be if you have no dex bonus at all and limited funds, such as a crappy NPC warrior. But with so limited funds, I can't really see spending those 400 on +1 AC over splint mail which is also a bit less cumbersome. A splint mail and a potion or three ought to protect the warrior better than a half-plate.
And for the baseline 3rd or 4th level warrior (where a half-plate is available but full plate isn't), spending 250 on a banded mail that weighs 35 lbs instead of 600 for a 50 lbs full plate might make it easier to carry it with them when not fighting (such as if marching during a campaign). For the 350 that's over, well, what about some potions of stuff like CLW, Enlarge Person, Oil of Magic weapon, some alchemist's fire, a masterwork backpack etc?
When people say the splinted mail is awful I generally disagree, I think there's a niche for it, being 20% cheaper than the banded mail which is relevant to those 2nd-3rd level warriors which make that choice. When it comes to the half-plate, I must more or less agree. If it had +1 max dex it would make sense, as is, it doesn't.
I' wonder to what extent a full plate was historically more maneuverable than a half plate.
Obviously, if you define half-plate armour as the typical 12th century armour and the full plate as 16th century armour, 400 years of technological advancement (slow advancement, but advancement nonetheless) is going to show on the final product.
But between a half plate and a full plate made by the same smith, with the same skill and knowledge, and the same materials, tools and infrastructures; I seriously wonder if the full plate would be more maneuverable.
I accept that the game has a plate mail armour (primitive) and a plate mail armour (advanced), but I don't buy the "half plates were less maneuvrable in real life" argument.