You'd call them Presbyterians, I think.

I remember even in the 90's finding people that still beleived in the Satanic Conspiracy crap. Like there was this video game rental place that was run by this really nice woman and I went in and asked her if she had Final Fantasy and she told me that she did, but the other day when returning it a kid said "Man, this is just like Dungeons and Dragons!" so she no longer rents it out because Dungeons and Dragons is satanic.

Then when I was 19 I was having troubles and so my mom thought I should try Job Corps. I forget what the recruiter woman said, but something made me ask her about Dungeons and Dragons and she was like "Oh, yes Dungeons and Dragons are NOT allowed." and it made my mom really mad that I'd asked cause she was afraid they'd not let me go just for asking. Ironically, their library had a bunch of Ravenloft novels, but those aren't Dungoens and Dragons, no those are "Ravenloft" and they are novels not evil satanic roleplaying games. LOL

The problem today is that many church leaders are older, they are FROM the generation where D&D was thought to be satanic, so even though most of the world has forgotten that nonsense, if your priest/minister/pastor/etc is old enough, they might not have.

agreed.

The older art was a bit more risqué as well, I recall several boobie shots you no longer see in the more recent stuff (I dont mean seoni, I mean full frontal stuff)

So Imagine checking out the monster manual back then, and having your mother look over your shoulder as see a lamia, or a nymph.

That;d get it banned by mom in a heart beat.

The idea of the game is we defeat evil monsters and bad guys. No different than King arthur or stories of the crusades or other stuff these people that hate DnD grew up on themselves.

Hansel and Gretel, the lady ate kids! Does it get more sinister?

Popeye smoked a pipe and had tattos. Shaggy from scoobie and the gang was a pot head, Pac Man ate pills to give him a "pick me up". Heck snow white lived with seven little hairy men!
But all that stuff was ok???

As far as Christianity goes, the character you are playing Isn't christian, they are all atheists or polytheists.
But if it really bothered you, we have neutered gods from the game, by just having clerics of light and clerics of darkness, there by, effectively making it monotheism, with 'god' and 'satan' represented.

We reverted to just normal stuff because it was easier, but, interestingly, we don't play many religious characters (clerics or paladins) anyway.

TL/DR -- c'mon, 203 posts?

I do, however, fail to recall "Thou Shalt Not Play Let's Pretend" (which is really what RPGs are, with dice added to let us all feel adult about playing Let's Pretend) being one of the Ten Commandments. Likewise, I can't remember any instances of Jesus instructing his disciples, "Play not with your imagination, for that is the path to damnation."

In short, Christians can play Pathfinder without compromising their faith in much the same way that they could play Uno, or Monopoly, or Battleship without compromising their faith.

Unless they're required to write things down during gaming sessions, there's nothing gaming-wise that violates even the Orthodox interpretation of "work".

Do you play without writing anything down? At the very least, most players write down their current hit points if nothing else. I suppose somebody might be clever enough to find a way to keep track of such things without writing or doing other "work", but I think it would be tricky. And I am pretty sure that asking a Gentile to do "work" for you goes against the spirit of that rule.

Getting too and from the game would also be a problem for an Orthodox Jew who does not live within easy walking distance of the host's house.

Christians can play Pathfinder without compromising their faith in much the same way that they could play Uno, or Monopoly, or Battleship without compromising their faith.

While this is indeed true, RPGs tend to get viewed by many Christians as potential stumbling blocks to their faith because of their content (the use of magic, demons, polytheism, etc.)...

This view does not come out of nowhere. There are verses in the Bible that Christians often look to as evidence, and while these are often times misunderstood or taken out of their original context, this is where most of the struggle with playing RPGs stems from...

I'm a Christian, and I have no problem playing an RPG like D&D or Pathfinder, but then, I do not find it to be a stumbling block to my faith. Some Christians do find it to be a stumbling block...

In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul uses the illustration of eating food sacrificed to idols and false gods, but at its heart, he was saying that what is good for one person, is not good for another...

"Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

So yeah, the simple answer is no, there is nothing Biblical preventing a Christian from playing an RPG such as Pathfinder, but it is up to each Christian to decide for themselves if playing an RPG is appropriate in their personal walk with Christ...

Lots of people are scared of lots of things.....

Been more than a few scares out there.

D&D was one

Ritualistic Satanic Abuse at daycares was another one. Wiki it if you don't know about it.

You can thank Jack Chick (Dread Dungeons) for all the bad rep that D&D has gotten over the last few decades from the Christian community.

Pretty much all the unsubstantiated fears/misinformation can be traced back to that source, if not related to it.

The same guy is also responsible for literature claiming that the Roman Catholic church is satanic.

Oh, and that King James is the Only true version of the bible.

Why should fiction pose a particular problem for one religion?

For the same reason that you can't like both Star Wars and Star Trek!

*ducks*

;)

You can thank Jack Chick (Dread Dungeons) for all the bad rep that D&D has gotten over the last few decades from the Christian community.

Pretty much all the unsubstantiated fears/misinformation can be traced back to that source, if not related to it.

The same guy is also responsible for literature claiming that the Roman Catholic church is satanic.

Oh, and that King James is the Only true version of the bible.

Oh yeah, blame ME!

mousestalker wrote:

Why should fiction pose a particular problem for one religion?

For the same reason that you can't like both Star Wars and Star Trek!

*ducks*

;)

Wait, wait... the Bible has bad acting and midichlorians?!?

I dunno, i think most poeple who take a look at Chick tracts these days, including most religious people, recognize that whoever created them was a whacked-out nut-job.

Hell, probably the best response to someone claiming D&D is satanic is to show him some Chick tracts and tell him: "You sound like this guy." IE, shame them into acceptable behavior.

...claiming that the Roman Catholic church is satanic.

It is; I have polaroids.

I am a secular materialist, non-objectivist LaVeyan satanist (Left hand path ethics. Scientific worldview.). I play Pathfinder. The two are not related.

Dude, what spell did he just cast?

"I don't know, but how does he shake hands without getting poked in the eye?"

I am a secular materialist, non-objectivist LaVeyan satanist (Left hand path ethics. Scientific worldview.). I play Pathfinder. The two are not related.

One of Anton's folks?

Nice to see you! I'm a fan of board diversity.

I am a secular materialist, non-objectivist LaVeyan satanist (Left hand path ethics. Scientific worldview.). I play Pathfinder. The two are not related.

Some of my best friends are, too; read the books, found them to have much less problem biting themselves in the butt than your average "scripture."

Would consider myself a fellow-traveler, but too antisocial to join...

:)

Soon you will know the truth!
Better do more chin ups.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.......

I'm from western Europe, in many of our churches and cathedrals we have paintings of demons and statues of gargoyles and dragons, so the representation of evil is not a problem for christians (at least for catholics).
Now christian religion doesn't accept the worship of anything else but God, as there is no actual worship in RPG I don't see any problem either.

If some people believe playing a priest of Asmodeus might turn someone good into a lost soul then it means someone bad playing an angel would become a saint...

Moreso, being an expression of heroic-fantasy the roleplaying games have the Bible in their DNA.

Zeal is not faith, you don't go to Heaven just burning witches or books.

Oladon wrote:

Unless they're required to write things down during gaming sessions, there's nothing gaming-wise that violates even the Orthodox interpretation of "work".

Do you play without writing anything down? At the very least, most players write down their current hit points if nothing else. I suppose somebody might be clever enough to find a way to keep track of such things without writing or doing other "work", but I think it would be tricky. And I am pretty sure that asking a Gentile to do "work" for you goes against the spirit of that rule.

Getting too and from the game would also be a problem for an Orthodox Jew who does not live within easy walking distance of the host's house.

I once went to a convention on a Saturday, and there was a jewish player who asked another to track his hit points and such. Presumably he had been staying at the hotel that the con was in.

A bit extreme and possibly problematic, I'd say, but I guess that's what orthodoxy is about.

I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible? I would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter!

Also happy thanksgiving to the USA !

Thanks
Nick

I don't know if you're Catholic or Protestant, but either way, this article (by Jimmy Akin, a former Evangelical, Catholic apologist and geek who back in the day did write RPG supplements) might help you :)

http://jimmyakin.com/2005/06/dd_the_knights.html

The takeaway graf from that one is: "In sum, though: There is nothing intrinsically sinful with RPGs, though they can definitely be run in a way that has a corrosive effect on the morals of the players. This is particularly true of D&D as it is commonly played. It all depends on who you’re playing with, how the GM or DM runs the game, and how you respond."

By "commonly played", I'm assuming he's talking about campaigns that are "chaotic neutral by default solely because the GM explicitly banned chaotic evil."

http://jimmyakin.com/2005/04/roleplaying_gam.html

Here he makes the same point that there is nothing wrong with D&D in general, but that campaigns that veer so heavily (reading between the lines) towards little more than mindless hack-n-slash can be problematic, and quotes Steve Jackson about how many parties THINK they're LG but are actually CN or worse in actual fact.

To be fair though, in the Catholic Church, there is no unified opinion (or really any official opinion at all) on D&D. I'd bet if you were to ask Pope Benedict XVI about it you'd get a "was ist das? Ich habe keine ahnung was Sie sagen" from him. There are apologists out there who do believe it is of the devil and those who say it's perfectly fine, There are those who have barely heard of it and have no opinion, and those like Mr. Akin (whom I respect) who says "It's OK, just be careful on how you play the game."

Personally, I say "game on".

You can thank Jack Chick (Dread Dungeons) for all the bad rep that D&D has gotten over the last few decades from the Christian community.

Pretty much all the unsubstantiated fears/misinformation can be traced back to that source, if not related to it.

The same guy is also responsible for literature claiming that the Roman Catholic church is satanic.

Oh, and that King James is the Only true version of the bible.

Mr. Chick is indeed a nutcase IMAO, but he's usually reactive, not proactive. The 1984 "Dark Dungeons" tract was in reaction to/support of the anti-D&D hysteria that had already reached the media in the mid-1980s.

I would pose that the pop culture event that did the most damage to D&D's reputation has to have been the 1981 Rona Jaffe novel Mazes and Monsters, and the 1982 made-for-TV movie that was based on the novel (and starring a very young Tom Hanks!)

The novel was based on the public understanding and media accounts (but not the real story) of a real-world incident involving Dallas Egbert, a student at Michigan State who disappeared from his dorm in 1979. To make a long story short, Egbert's parents hired a private investigator named William Dear to find out what happened. After a very cursory investigation, Dear started making statements to the press about his theories connecting Egbert's disappearance to D&D and Satanic cults.

Dear actually never got anywhere close to the truth, but the media reported his wild speculations as fact.

In reality, Egbert never played D&D at Michigan State. He was also suffering from untreated bipolar disorder and had become addicted to heroin-- two details that never entered the public discussion. He had done some "urban exploration" of the steam tunnels beneath campus, and it was there that he attempted suicide by an intentional drug overdose. He was unsuccessful, and after he woke up, he decided to simply walk away from campus without telling anyone. He was missing for several months before he contacted Dear and told him the real story. He asked Dear not to reveal what happened (which the detective was happy to agree to, as he never got anything close to the real story on his own!), and left Egbert in the care of Egber's uncle. Egbert attempted suicide twice more, and succeeded on his third attempt in August, 1980. He was 18 years old.

It wasn't until 1984 that Dear published his own account of the case, correcting much of the speculation and detailing his own incorrect theory (and why he had jumped to that conclusion). Of course, by then the anti-D&D hysteria was at its height, and the damage was done.

The real question is to try to understand why do they think it is dangerous, and then explain why it is not.

It's not a problem for christians in other countries, why is it in the USA?

Because someone told them it was? Well just explain them that the ones who explained that game to them, did not know/read it and did not even try to understand it.

Then ask them about movies and actors. Is an actor going to hell because he was an evil character in X movie? No, well it's the same with D&D(if you play evil characters).

Is playing a Paladin who lives his live for his god, to help innocent and protect them from evil creatures, something that would compromise your faith? No.

Honestly... I just can't understand all of this, but I'm not from the USA, so...

Alot of people can't understand the USA.

Including me, and I live in it.

Darkorin wrote:

The real question is to try to understand why do they think it is dangerous, and then explain why it is not.

It's not a problem for christians in other countries, why is it in the USA?

Because someone told them it was? Well just explain them that the ones who explained that game to them, did not know/read it and did not even try to understand it.

Then ask them about movies and actors. Is an actor going to hell because he was an evil character in X movie? No, well it's the same with D&D(if you play evil characters).

Is playing a Paladin who lives his live for his god, to help innocent and protect them from evil creatures, something that would compromise your faith? No.

Honestly... I just can't understand all of this, but I'm not from the USA, so...

Alot of people can't understand the USA.

Including me, and I live in it.

I suggest studying the history of the evangelism movement that began in the 1800s and going from there.

lifeisaparody wrote:

You can thank Jack Chick (Dread Dungeons) for all the bad rep that D&D has gotten over the last few decades from the Christian community.

Pretty much all the unsubstantiated fears/misinformation can be traced back to that source, if not related to it.

The same guy is also responsible for literature claiming that the Roman Catholic church is satanic.

Oh, and that King James is the Only true version of the bible.

Mr. Chick is indeed a nutcase IMAO, but he's usually reactive, not proactive. The 1984 "Dark Dungeons" tract was in reaction to/support of the anti-D&D hysteria that had already reached the media in the mid-1980s.

That's a blatant ad hominem. Flagged.

While I haven't had to remove any posts, let's veer this back on topic and tone down the joke posts. Thanks!

I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible? I would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter!

Also happy thanksgiving to the USA !

Thanks
Nick

First off, I'm a Christian. Just to clear that up.

Now then, the key is that PF/D&D are just like watching Harry Potter or reading Lord of the Rings. Just like having a bed time story about evil witches and Hanzel and Gretel being read to you (but with dice!), and it is just like playing Risk or Monopoly (but with more rules!).

It's all in good fun, Pathfinder is just a game, not a "way of life" or "cult." If you do join a cult, or become a satanist, etc., PLEASE do not associate PF with it. And then please don't write tracts about it. Because D&D is just another game, another hobby, another way to have fun.

It is {insert swear words here} like Jack Chick who give it a bad name. It is unbalanced, mentally disordered people who play D&D and then do silly things, and then blame it/have it blamed on D&D who give it a bad name. All these people see D&D as something more than it really is.

It is a game. Treat it as such, and you'll be just fine.

If these people question DnD you should question their faith.

If these people question DnD you should question their faith.

A Christian's personal walk with Christ is just that, personal. Some Christian's drink alcohol, some are smokers; and their walk with Christ is unaffected by it. Paul (in 1 Corinthians 6:12) tells us: "Everything is permissible for me" - but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me" - but I will not be mastered by anything."

Ultimately it is up to each Christian to read the Word of God for themselves, then listen and be receptive to Him for what is and is not personally permissible for them in their own walk with Christ Jesus (be that drinking alcohol or playing a game such as Dungeons & Dragons)...

To those non-Christians who think this whole thing is ridiculous, an example:

When you, a Christian, explain to another Christian that you are playing Way of the Wicked: The Devil My Only Master, it is a pretty natural response for that other person to have some doubts about the activity.

As I'm a Christian and an RPGer, I have reconciled both. But I certainly understand why not everybody has.

It is unbalanced, mentally disordered people who play D&D and then do silly things, and then blame it/have it blamed on D&D who give it a bad name. All these people see D&D as something more than it really is.

Or mentally unbalanced people do silly or tragic things and then someone else picking up the pieces makes a false causal link to the fact that said person played D&D/FRPGs, even if only a handful of times, such as in the case of "Bink" Pulling.

In response to the OP. In our reguler gaming group we have or had in no particular order, devout christians, a pastor, folk who identify as christian but do little in terms of practice, a wickan, and a few folk who may believe in nothing for all I know.

At the end of the day we are sitting at a table playing a fun game of make beleive where you are the good guys conquering evil. I dont think anyones real life beliefs ever enter into the equation. Even something as controversial as the poly-theist pantheon of dieties, is really no big deal as your playing a character. Its not as though by acting in a play where a character is Jewish for example, you are turning your back on being Chrisian. Why should a game be any different?

Delthyn wrote:

It is unbalanced, mentally disordered people who play D&D and then do silly things, and then blame it/have it blamed on D&D who give it a bad name. All these people see D&D as something more than it really is.

Or mentally unbalanced people do silly or tragic things and then someone else picking up the pieces makes a false causal link to the fact that said person played D&D/FRPGs, even if only a handful of times, such as in the case of "Bink" Pulling.

Exactly. Most recent example of something similar is the elementary school shooting a few days ago.

People find the BROTHER'S Facebook profile, berate him for a while because they're morons, and because he "Liked" Mass Effect they go over and make even bigger (if that's even possible) fools of themselves by blaming Mass Effect for killing a bunch of children.

Jesus taught in parables- stories. Because he was wise enough to know that humans learn better from stories than from simply being told "this is right and this is wrong."

The Chronicles of Narnia are probably the best Christian parables of the modern age.

Don't know if Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell are good people for you to name as resources, but essentially they said the same thing-- human beings learn and grow and create and discover through experiencing stories.

Roleplaying games are the best outlet for this I've ever found. I've gotten to experience dozens of lives in-depth that are far outside the scope of my own. I've been a battle-scarred warrior, a powerful priestess, the last survivor of a lost tribe, a healer, a betrayer, I've found redemption, and on and on and on... I've had the chance to grow and discover things far beyond the reach of my one little life.

Role-playing gives us that chance.