Are spell-like ablities "cast"?


Rules Questions


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The feat Dimensional Agility demands that you be able to cast Dimension Door to get it.

I was wondering if a spell-like ability is enough to qualify for the feat.


Well, the rules say this about Spell-Like Abilities:

PRD wrote:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

SLAs are also tempered by the following FAQ rules clarifications.

FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?

No. Metamagic feats specifically only affect spells, not spell-like abilities. Also, spell-like abilities do not have spell slots, so you can't adjust the effective spell slot of a spell-like ability.

FAQ wrote:

Metamagic Rod: Can I use one of these items to alter a spell-like ability?

No. Metamagic rods allow you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell, and metamagic feats do not work on spell-like abilities.

FAQ wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.

So aside from the listed exceptions, a SLA works just like a spell. So I'd allow it in this circumstance. That said, a SLA is a standard action. So you wouldn't be able to use it to teleport in and attack something or teleport away and cast another spell or SLA unless you also had the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat.


Cast is generally shorthand for "cast a spell". You generally "use" or "activate" a spell-like ability, although I don't doubt that there are a few places here or there that confuse "casting" a spell-like ability with "using/activating a spell-like ability".

Spell-like abilities are not spells.

Dev clarification here too.

Originally this feat line was more open, but the developers restricted it quite a bit.

Since SLAs are not spells, and do not count as spells for...well just about anything, I do not think this would work.


Just because it has a casting time doesn't mean it is cast like a spell, although I can see the confusion in the wording in your original post.

To clarify, a SLA is "activated", not "cast". So, it generally (unless specified) does not allow you to qualify for things like metamagic feats or feats based upon the "Ability to Cast <X>".

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Do spell like abilities need concentration checks?


Dimensional Agility:
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

If you can use abundant step its a supernatural ability so dont cast dimension door. Its withen reason if you have a class feature that lets you use something like dimensional door that you can use the feat also. I would think most gms would allow it.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Sadly, the restricted version of Dimensional Agility that was presented to us does not work with dimension door SLAs. Wish it did, but no. Heck, I wish it worked with things like a Shadowdancer's shadow-step-thingy. Seems like it would be the perfect fit, but . . . nope.

I don't think it would be too unwieldy or overpowered for them to modify the feat chain to work with any innate source of dimension door, but maybe I haven't looked into all of the variables that other theorycrafters have.


mavbor wrote:

Dimensional Agility:

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.

If you can use abundant step its a supernatural ability so dont cast dimension door. Its withen reason if you have a class feature that lets you use something like dimensional door that you can use the feat also. I would think most gms would allow it.

Negative. This is an example of the specificity I mentioned above. If you do not possess the exact Abundant Step ability or have the ability to cast the Dimension Door spell, you do not qualify.

You'd be reading too far into the rules by assuming that ANY class feature would qualify. If this were the case, the ability would say "Any class feature" instead of specifically targeting Abundant Step.


It shouldn't. By RAW anyway. Your GM might allow it but it's technically not allowed.

Barry was kind enough to clarify a very similar question to this that I asked about a week ago.


Veldebrand wrote:
Do spell like abilities need concentration checks?

Yes.

Quote:
You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or while grappled.

I find fascinating that you can cast defensively for both spells and SLA as this suggest.


Yea, you can defensively use SLAs. Apparently purely mental actions provoke AoOs, d00d.


The key word was "cast" defensively.

Anyway, it seems Paizo hates me by not letting a SLA DD qualify for DA. Now the world must burn.


Papa Chango wrote:

The key word was "cast" defensively.

Anyway, it seems Paizo hates me by not letting a SLA DD qualify for DA. Now the world must burn.

Or do you hate Paizo and us experienced DM's for carefully wordsmithing abilities to prevent exploitation opportunities?

Ahh, semantics. How I love thee.


Papa Chango wrote:
Veldebrand wrote:
Do spell like abilities need concentration checks?

Yes.

Quote:
You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or while grappled.
I find fascinating that you can cast defensively for both spells and SLA as this suggest.

I think you're reading into that sentence as well. It's equally as confusing. Let's pick it apart.

You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell when casting on the defensive.

You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell while grappled.

You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to use a spell-like ability (notice, they didn't say "CAST" a spell-like ability?) while grappled.

Is separating the sentence for you any more clear as to the statement's intentions? Or does it cause more confusion?


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Papa Chango wrote:

The key word was "cast" defensively.

Anyway, it seems Paizo hates me by not letting a SLA DD qualify for DA. Now the world must burn.

Or do you hate Paizo and us experienced DM's for carefully wordsmithing abilities to prevent exploitation opportunities?

Ahh, semantics. How I love thee.

I think you're reading too much into my joke.

On a side not, you could also say: You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or when grappled.

But I wouldn't want to rain on your parade. We must all feel important somehow, even if it's on the internet.

So in the spirit of things: Gratz! You've won some internet. /pat head


Papa Chango wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Papa Chango wrote:

The key word was "cast" defensively.

Anyway, it seems Paizo hates me by not letting a SLA DD qualify for DA. Now the world must burn.

Or do you hate Paizo and us experienced DM's for carefully wordsmithing abilities to prevent exploitation opportunities?

Ahh, semantics. How I love thee.

I think you're reading too much into my joke.

On a side not, you could also say: You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or when grappled.

But I wouldn't want to rain on your parade. We must all feel important somehow, even if it's on the internet.

So in the spirit of things: Gratz! You've won some internet. /pat head

And apparently you didn't read enough into mine. My response was as full of sarcasm as yours was.

I don't do this to feel important or to "win". But thanks for passively-aggressively trolling while trying to sell yourself as an anti-troll. All you did was make yourself into exactly what you just tried to sell me as. Good job. /pat head.


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Seems like the section on Spell-Like Effects should really read, "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell, except for all of these other ways that aren't mentioned."

Errata on the way, maybe?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, spell-like abilities are not (technically) spells. Yes, you CAN cast them.

The rules reference "casting" spell-like abilities a hundred times over.

One example of many includes the drow stats:

Spell-Like Abilities: A drow can cast dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire, once each per day, using her total character level as her caster level.

Therefore, in response to the OP's question, yes, I believe that having a dimension door spell-like ability qualifies you for the feats in question. Abilities like Shadow Step, however, clearly do not.


FFS not this again.


And yet again, the core rules that describe what SLAs are and how you use them do not mention "Cast". They say you either "use" or "activate" them. The section of text that describes the rules takes precedence over other sections, just as the CRB takes precedence over other books.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Those rules don't use exclusionary text. Just because you say one set of rules are "more important" than another doesn't make it so.

"Use," "Cast," these terms are interchangeable in regards to spell-like abilities. It doesn't change the fact that they qualify me fore the feat chain.


Ravingdork, normally I agree with you, but here I don't.

The drow ability you mentioned is a race trait that happens to be named "Spell Like Abilities". Notice it does not have the specific descriptor of (Su), (Sp), or (Ex).

If it said something like "Spell Like Abilities (Sp): The drow can cast..." that would be different.

Perfect example above in my posts:

"You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or while grappled."

If the terms "cast" and "use" a spell-like ability were truly interchangable (I'd like to see specific examples cited that they are), then why would this line specify (and therefore utilize the exclusionary text you were seeking) CAST a spell and USE a spell-like ability?

They could have truncated that to "cast a spell or spell-like ability". But they didn't. Because they're different.


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This is the feats author answer


Eh, ok. Been looking for that post for about 3 days now. It seems to rely on things affecting spells affecting SLAs, which is false, but hey, whatever. Would've been useful before this whole debacle :p

Point still stands on free actions and the effects that mistakes can have on the rules though.


There's a reason I favorited it :)


Glutton wrote:
This is the feats author answer

Well, that at least clears up the fact that any ability with the same effect as Abundant Step can be used in its' place.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you, Glutton. *tosses a barrel of cookies*


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Barry Armstrong wrote:

Ravingdork, normally I agree with you, but here I don't.

The drow ability you mentioned is a race trait that happens to be named "Spell Like Abilities". Notice it does not have the specific descriptor of (Su), (Sp), or (Ex).

If it said something like "Spell Like Abilities (Sp): The drow can cast..." that would be different.

Sorry to thread necro, but I've been obsessing over this one all night.

You want an example that says cast?

PRD wrote:

Maker’s Jump (Sp)

At 6th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using his caster level.

There I see the exact language in question. It's not a question of spell lists or spell completion items, it's a question of whether the character can "cast dimension door." This ability explicitly states that he can, and no rule or FAQ I've found all night says that he can't.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And there are many more examples of Spell-Like Abilities being "cast."


Spell like abilities are not cast. It's been covered time and time again. See other people's links. SLA creatures are not spell casters. They do not qualify for PRC's or anything else that requires a spell to be cast in order to qualify.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I can't help that the developers don't seem to know that, TCG. Time and time again I'm finding references to spell-like abilities that are "cast" within official Paizo published material.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Found the Cayhound in the Inner Sea Bestiary today. It is a monster that explicitly possesses the Dimensional Agility and Dimentional Assault feats with nothing to qualify for them except a 3/day dimension door spell-like ability.

Just thought I'd point that out now that I know it exists.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Spell like abilities are not cast. It's been covered time and time again. See other people's links. SLA creatures are not spell casters. They do not qualify for PRC's or anything else that requires a spell to be cast in order to qualify.

Actually they are cast.

Quote:
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.

edit:The fact that they don't qualify for everything that spells qualify for does not mean they are not cast.


I'm kinda glad this got necro'd. It caused me to research it and look it up for myself. It seems I am wrong, per the very Core Rulebook, Chapter 9, page 221, under "Special Abilities".

Core Rulebook wrote:
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name....A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

If a creature has Dimension Door (Sp), they cast the Dimension Door spell unless otherwise noted. Therefore I reverse my earlier posts and agree with Ravingdork. If it can Dimension Door, it qualifies for the feats.


They still don't qualify for the feats. An SLA does not equal a spell just because it can be cast. SLA's are not spells.

I would allow it, but it is still not a spell.


We're not arguing that an SLA is not a spell. We're arguing the semantics of feat qualification. If the prerequisite is "Must be able to cast the Dimension Door spell", then I would agree, it doesn't qualify. An SLA for Dimension Door is indeed NOT the dimension door spell.

But if it simply says "Must be able to cast Dimension Door" (note the absence of the word "spell"), then it would qualify. A creature with the SLA of Dimension Door has the ability to CAST Dimension Door. Therefore it meets the parameters of the feat qualification.

As in, the Dimensional Agility line of feats. It doesn't say the word "spell" in the prerequisite for any of them, so you can't disqualify SLA effects from it unless you houserule or homebrew.


No it does not qualify. You must prove it SLA's always count as spells to say that. The devs have clearly stated that SLA's are not spells, and the fact that SLA's dont count as being able to activate wands show that the word "spell" is not always needed.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
No it does not qualify. You must prove it SLA's always count as spells to say that.

No we don't. Why would you think that?


Spell-like ability isn't a spell just as cheese food product isn't cheese. It's merely "food product" that closely resembles cheese.


I have to concur with Barry Armstrong. Since the feat does not specify spells anything that is 'cast' (which includes spell-like abilities) qualifies.

Dimension door as a spell = cast
Dimension door as a spell-like ability = cast

Now, with that said, the intent is might be that it only applies to spells.

Additionally, spell-like abilities specifically state they count as spells in every way that is not excepted in the magic item section. This has been central to numerous debates regarding SLAs. Example: using spellcraft to identify an SLA being cast.

The reason Metamagic feats and other feats that apply to spells do not apply to spell-like abilities is because they specifically state 'spell'. Dimensional Agility has no such wording.

- Gauss


RAW, the prerequisite for the Dimensional Agility feat chain does not specify spell or SLA. It simply says you must be able to cast Dimension Door or have the Abundant Step class feature. So, anyone who has Abundant Step or can cast Dimension Door, whether it be spell or SLA, qualifies. This is not an interpretation by me. This is not a RAI point of view by me. This is an exact wording of the semantics of prerequisites printed in the book.

Unless I see dev posts or errata saying otherwise, the RAW stands.

Again, this is not about spells and SLA's not being the same. We know they aren't.


RAW I agree.

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