Epic Weapons and Epic DR vs Mythic Weapons and Mythic DR


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion


Could the Epic tag be dropped and repaced with Mythic? Would doing this cause confusion or clear up confusion?

Jason


Well currently in the core rules Epic DR exists, the Titan for example has Epic DR. So this couldn't be easily changed with out causing confusion as they would have modify it in the Bestiaries that are currently out there.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

We decided to keep DR/Epic because it is already part of the rules. The small amount of confusion it causes is less than what would be caused by adding an entirely new type of DR...

At least, I think that is the case.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Sovereign Court

Well, changing all references to DR/Epic would cost a lot of money too. Plus i don't need to buy an entire rulebook again for a change of wording in three to four places.


Will a mythic crafted weapon over come epic DR? Like the "Dagger of a thousand Bites" or "Fire goddess's Blade".

Silver Crusade

Will the Mythic rules include rules for crafting epic weapons?


Cross-posted from here, as it's relevant.

me wrote:
Finally, although this suggestion should likely go in the other thread, so I'll cross-post it there, I do suggest that the terminology be changed to DR/mythic. You wouldn't have to go back and reprint previous prints of information (simply providing errata should suffice), and information on DR/epic and epic weaponry (or other things) would only appear in a given mythic book anyway, or on websites where the correction could be made clear (a minor footnote stating, "This used to be called DR/epic." would do wonders, I think).

Mods, if you think the threads are too similar, feel free to merge them or lock the other one or something (I don't know all the magic that you do). :)

Silver Crusade

I think you should keep DR/Epic, it works, it's well defined and that way this kind of DR is still worth something between mystic creatures.


Continuing a converstation from this thread in the thread that's exclusively about DR/epic and mythic items...

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I really don't think that changing the DR to DR/Mystic is a very good idea, especially considering campaigns were the characters gain mystic powers for a limited amount of time. Considering the current information about mystic damage, pretty much all damage from a mystic source counts as mystic damage, so DR/Mystic would only be effective against non-mystic challenges.

Um... but that's kind of the point already.

DR/epic is only called "DR/epic" because they didn't have the name "DR/mythic" available at the time they created such things.

I'm not necessarily asking DR/mythic to be "an entirely new type of DR", but simply rename DR/epic as DR/mythic for future endeavors or print runs (and simply make the note, "this used to be called DR/epic", where needed).

We know that mythic creatures have DR/epic. We know mythic creatures are supposed to be able to overcome DR/epic because mythic effects are the route PF has gone instead of epic (which, in d20 parlance, pretty strictly means above-20th-level-play). The only reason to continue to use the term "DR/epic" is because they "used to do it that way".

Regardless of what it's called, however, changing its name is irrelevant. If it continues as DR/epic... okay. But the mechanics...

The problem with claiming that changing it to DR/mythic will only allow limited-time-overcomes is that the problem with DR/epic is slightly worse: there is no such thing as +6 weapons, currently, unless you go against the established understanding (that any weapon with a total enhancement bonus of +6 counts, which also highly undervalues the DR/epic concept). Heck, even artifacts that are supposed to be the most important tools in reality aren't able to overcome DR/epic, as written (the Saint Cuthber's Mace, for example).

And a paladin can outright ignore this restriction, regardless, presuming an evil foe.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

The whole +10 maximum enhancement bonus is a quite a difficult topic. Since the mystic rules are supposed so serve as an overlay over the existing system, giving a way to break the limit would be quite difficult to implement.

Just look at how quick a Magus with mythic arcane strike could break the +10 limit. Maybe the way to go would be to mimic the existing mystic magic items: The weapon follows the usual rules, but in the hands of a mystic character the weapon is far more potent. Something like this could work (I have no idea how to calculate the cost however, some kind of formula would be nice, once the worth of a point of mystic power is established)

Sword of Gorum
In the hands of characters without mystic powers this bastard sword works as a +3 wounding weapon. In the hands of a mystic character the weapon works as a +5 weapon. The user can spend a point of mystic power to cast a blade barrier (CL 15, DC 19) centred on the wielder, the wall moves with the wielder.
...<snippy>...
Rereading some of the existing mystic powers, a lot of them do allow you to ignore DR so it's not a huge problem.

That's some really neat ideas that I like, but not quite what I'm talking about.

DR/epic is defined, currently, as only able to be overcome by a weapon with a +6 enhancement bonus or higher.

For example, if I have a +6 longsword, and Hauntender (a +1 keen ghost touch undead bane lifesurge longsword), I've two different longswords, both of which have a +6 enhancement value. One of them overcomes damage reduction (the vanilla +6 longsword), but the other does not. If I own both and come up against an epic ghost, I'm up the creek without a paddle (only one could damage the ghost, but only one could hit the ghost).

Now similar arguments could be made for ghosts of, say, demons or nymphs (they'd also need to be cold iron), but that's actually something that can be done: either weapon could be cold iron.

On the other hand, wielding Godcutter (a +1 ghost touch planar longsword; total +3 bonus) means that otherwise impressive solar, Heketonkheires titin, Thanatotic titan, and mu spore ghosts are actually substantially more vulnerable to us than with the Hauntender (a +6 weapon).

In that regards, I can see the special nature of a +6 longsword - it's built for the job, so to speak.

So the question is, although I'm probably not being clear: does any weapon with a higher-than-+6-total enhancement bonus overcome DR/epic (which is in clear contravention to current understanding and weakens DR/epic considerably), or only those items which inherently break the existing limits of weapons (which is partially what the current understanding of the DR/epic definition is: i.e. weapons that have an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher). I'm simply asking if having other items that also alter that base presumption (+11 or higher total items, like Saint Cuthbert's Mace) are also part of the equation or not.

The alternative option is to create items that are mythic by definition (or epic by definition) and thus overcome DR/mythic or DR/epic. This option would definitely entail requiring both a name change and rules change (with errata to back it up for solars and the like). That's pretty much exactly what Jason said he didn't want to do. That may be easier, though, than trying to bolt on things after-the-fact (and again, could be solvable by noting "This used to be called DR/epic").


As a GM, I have a problem with the related issue of Mythic Damage and Mythic DR. Mythic tiers are not necessarily epic as per the old ELH definition, it is understood. But it leads to an interesting issue: a 20th level character with a standard PC class is not able to deliver mythic damage without an epic weapon, whereas a 10th level character with 5 Mythic tiers can. It seems quite odd because the standard 20th level character is already "epic" in a way, isn't he ?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Note that the original definition of an Epic weapon differs somewhat from Paizo's description in MOnster DR.

An EPic Weapon is any weapon with a +6 Enhancement bonus; a special power with a cost of +6 or higher; or a total of +11 or more bonuses.

Thus, if you need an Epic Weapon, you don't need a +6 Enhancement bonus...but a +6 Enhancement bonus is by far the easiest to get. A +4 Sunsword is +6 against all Evil; so is a +4 Bane weapon against it's enemy. A Furious sword+4 is +6 while raging.

As for being able to replicate Epic with the +11 bit...nope. The devs have repeatedly said that you can't stack bonuses above +10 with spells and class abilities. So, no +1 swords with +9 of powers, Greater magic weapon, and +4 of effects from Divine Bond adding up to a +18 weapon. You have to pick and choose what you're going to lose when you start buffing up a weapon.

And the mace of cuthbert is, I believe, a +11 weapon? It would satisfy DR/Epic just fine.

So, DR/EPic originally meant Epic Weapon, NOT merely Epic Weapon Enhancement. Either way, getting to +6 is not that hard if you want to.

==Aelryinth


@Aelryinth:
The source of my question and problem is that a) I'm not finding the link to the definition of DR/epic online at a PF site (which may help substantially) and b) in the Mythic Playtest document, it clearly states...

Mythic Playtest Document page 3 wrote:
DR/Epic: Damage reduction that can only be overcome by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater.

... and that's all. It gives no indication of a +11 weapon (which the St. Cuthbert's Mace certainly is), and that's the crux of my question. A +6 effective enhancement bonus really isn't that big a deal and can easily be attained with the current RAW, but I believe the RAW means only a +6 or higher weapon with a factual enhancement bonus, not a +6 "effective" bonus. Basically the +6 longsword would apply, but my hypothetical Hauntender, Godslicer, or the actual Mace of Saint Cuthbert would not, under the definition given in the Mythic Playtest.

Also, Aelryinth, I think you both misread and thus misrepresented me: I'm not asking for basic, non-mythic spells and craft feats and such to stack beyond the basic, "normal" +10. I'm asking about weapons and weapon crafting rules in general. Believe it or not, this is not an attempt at "power gaming", but a genuine question of rules.

But you bring up a good point. Would a (modified) Sunsword, a Bane, or a Furious weapon actually qualify? I think they would, but then again, you have very strange things such as suddenly having the lowly +1 bonus features be far, far more valuable than the +3 bonus, +4 bonus, or +5 bonus features all the time, and the sticky situation of modifying a pre-published weapon (which some GMs refuse to do, "because RAW").

The Sunsword is published as a +2 bastard sword (and notes that it's +4 against evil creatures). That's pretty specific. It doesn't claim that the bonus increases by two against evil (never mind that I interpret it that way, personally), only that it becomes a set +4.

That also brings up the specter of a Holy Avenger, which is a +2 weapon, but in the hands of a paladin, is a +5 weapon. Does that mean it increases by +3 or does it merely grant static bonuses? RAW is the latter, as it specifies it's a +2 longsword that becomes +5 in the hands of a paladin.

The matter isn't as simple, RAW-wise as you claim; it's just not as clear-cut. Using my personal view, I'd agree with your supposition that it doesn't function that way, but rather it stacks, but going by RAW, that's not true.

Of course, using my view, the Greater Magic Weapon spell grants an enhancement bonus of up to +5 to a +1 weapon with +9 effective enhancements (that is, it changes the +1 bonus to attack and damage to a +5 bonus to attack and damage), but the bonus doesn't allow you to bypass DR other than DR/magic (you know, like the spell says it does).

Just so you know, if you wish to correct me again, I'd appreciate links next time (EDIT: or direct quotes; I accept those too, I'd just prefer links), so I can read it for myself, because you might not have meant it that way, but it came off as really condescending, and not even addressing the point I was asking originally.

@Hand of Vectra: to a point I see what you're saying with mythic/epic, but here's the thing with Mythic as it's presented now, it's supposed to be something "other", kind of an ineffable something that makes the mythic whatever somehow greater than otherwise equal non-mythic creatures. Thus mythic creatures can affect mythic creatures, as the idea.

If you do keep the current definition of DR/epic, it seems strange that certain mythic creatures gain that just for being them, as it seems to just tack on a different rule set altogether (the idea of a bonus higher than +5, which is the normal maximum). If we receive crafting rules that allow crafting above the +5, or the total +10 cap as part of mythic rules, fine, then there's no problem. If not, than we've got a huge number of people that suddenly desperately need +4 bane weapons for any given mythic fight (at least one that has DR/epic) - as that's the only RAW way that non-barbarians can get that kind of bonus. And that kind of puts very strange importance on a highly specific, otherwise oft-overlooked weapon enhancement.

Silver Crusade

The name DR/Epic is as well established a part of the rules. The rules pretty much everyone will be using in one form or another. (rules bloat can become a problem, and changing names adds to the problem, I guess). Let's be realistic, the mythic rules are pretty much optional and like other alternative rules (like words of power) it is quite interesting in the playtest, but only a minority of games will ever make regular use of the mystic rules.
That alone is a very good reason not to change the name. What I really want to avoid, is a new player/GM reading a monster description and deciding not to bother since it incorporates an element from a set of rules his group doesn't use (like DR/mystic).

So that was my bit about the name, now how DR works (at least the way I am reading the rules):

A weapon with an effective enhancement bonus of +3 (like +2 bane against the right creature) overcomes DR magic, cold iron and silver. The same is true for a +4 weapon and adamantine DR and +5 for alignment based DR. The bestiary tells me that epic DR is overcome by weapons with a +6 enhancement bonus and I think a +4 bane weapon works. This does in fact cheapen the DR greatly, but does reward preparation – which is a good thing. And it is quite unfair since this system gives preferential treatment to characters with insta-bane abilties like magi and inquisitors and or course archers.... as if archers needed any help in that regard ( clustered shot :( ) .

Now a lot of the new mystic abilities allow you to ignore DR when you use them, that's nice not awesome but pretty nice, and it allows you to punch the BBEG with your bare fists, which is always a bonus.

I would go so far and say that DR is actually not such a big problem for many characters, ninjas and other characters with sneak attack aren't that strongly affected by it. Fireball throwing wizards don't care and many others can just bash trough. It does affect monks... I guess.

Now you suggested that DR/Mythic/Epic is mostly there against nonmythic enemies, and I have to dissagree with you a bit. I think that the level 2 monk 1 mystic tier should have some way to overcome to DR/Awesome 10 of the mystic beast, since the level 1 warriors really have no chance to really hurt it, but it should not be an automatic ability all the time. Well that is just my opinion for a fairly limited situation.

Oh yeah and as you said, Paladins are awesome.

Now the thing with the mystic ghost, I believe you remember the old rules about incorporeal creatures. (current rules http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-)
So you only need a plain old boring +1 sword to harm an incorporeal creature (but it only does half damage) of course of you feel rich, you can invest in a +1 ghost touch weapon, to do full damage against incorporeal creatures (a bonus is that if you get disarmed, the ghost can pick it up and stab you – how quaint^^)

Now if the ghost is mythic, you just have to deal with the DR and the incorporeal situation, a +4 undead bane weapon should be sufficient.

Demons, Devils and other creatures with DR that involves a special material, well once you have a 3 weapon of better, it isn't really a factor any more.

If you want to enjoy the good live and hunt outsiders on the various planes, just buy an +4 evil outsider bane weapon, that should serve you pretty well, in case you meet some of the weird non-evil outsiders you just have to bash a little harder.
I really can't stress this enough, mythic arcane strike is very very good, if you can, take it.

I guess some other factors will define how DR will affect mystic characters – access to mystic power and mystic items.


DR/Mythic wouldn't hurt the game.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I think that the level 2 monk 1 mystic tier should have some way to overcome to DR/Awesome 10 of the mystic beast, since the level 1 warriors really have no chance to really hurt it, but it should not be an automatic ability all the time.

Oddly enough, a monk who uses a mythic ability to gain DR/epic can overcome other creature's DR/epic. (According to the universal monster rules, the natural weapons of a creature with DR/epic count as epic for the purpose of overcoming DR.)


True, it is still considered a natural weapon (just no improved natural weapon feat). So, I believe you are right.


So, anyway, reference the name, I'm sorry that I appear to be nitpicking! That was not my intent at all, and I'll work on being a better playtester/feedback giver (and not sticking to just opinions).

Nonetheless, can anyone point me to a link where DR/epic is clearly spelled out? As it stands, the +6 thing still bothers me. I'd really appreciate any information about the +6 enhancement v. a +11 effective enhancement on DR/epic. The point: I was not trying to say, "it should be this way" (though I think it came off that way, and it became more that over time), but trying to ask, "does this count"; the current answer seems to be "no", but I'd appreciate more developer feedback.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Now the thing with the mystic ghost, I believe you remember the old rules about incorporeal creatures.

Sebastian! You are entirely correct! I've actually been running it wrong in the PF games we play, so thanks for the link. Still, that's a pretty telling thing: basically I can ignore more of their effective damage reduction with a +3 weapon than I can with a +6 weapon.

Also, it may totally be a function of auto-correct on phones or something (I know it happens to me all the time), but I wanted to mention just in case that it's supposed to be "mythic" instead of "mystic". I don't mean any insult by that, and I'm not trying to get on your case (internet-words can appear colder than they're meant sometimes); personally I'd prefer it if I was using the wrong word or spelling ans someone pointed it out to me, so I'm simply mentioning. Feel free to ignore, if you like!

Silver Crusade

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Tacticslion wrote:

So, anyway, reference the name, I'm sorry that I appear to be nitpicking! That was not my intent at all, and I'll work on being a better playtester/feedback giver (and not sticking to just opinions).

Nonetheless, can anyone point me to a link where DR/epic is clearly spelled out? As it stands, the +6 thing still bothers me. I'd really appreciate any information about the +6 enhancement v. a +11 effective enhancement on DR/epic. The point: I was not trying to say, "it should be this way" (though I think it came off that way, and it became more that over time), but trying to ask, "does this count"; the current answer seems to be "no", but I'd appreciate more developer feedback.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Now the thing with the mystic ghost, I believe you remember the old rules about incorporeal creatures.

Sebastian! You are entirely correct! I've actually been running it wrong in the PF games we play, so thanks for the link. Still, that's a pretty telling thing: basically I can ignore more of their effective damage reduction with a +3 weapon than I can with a +6 weapon.

Also, it may totally be a function of auto-correct on phones or something (I know it happens to me all the time), but I wanted to mention just in case that it's supposed to be "mythic" instead of "mystic". I don't mean any insult by that, and I'm not trying to get on your case (internet-words can appear colder than they're meant sometimes); personally I'd prefer it if I was using the wrong word or spelling ans someone pointed it out to me, so I'm simply mentioning. Feel free to ignore, if you like!

Nope, thats just me typing after a certain hour ^^

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