Suli Elemental Assault Question


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So, I apologize if this is either a stupid question, or if its been asked before and I just couldn't find it. I searched on Google for it and couldn't find any information from any site about this particular query. The Suli's Elemental Assault ability states that you can add +1d6 to unarmed attacks and with weapons held in your hands (paraphrasing of course, but I believe I hit the major points). It does not say in the description that the weapons have to be melee. So, if on were to make a Suli Gunslinger or Archer, or something of the kind, would that ability add to the damage of those weapons?

Shadow Lodge

Doesn't say anything about "melee weapon," so weird as it is, you should be able to use it with ranged weapons.


The real question is, are you attacking with the weapons held in those hands or with the bullets fired out of them?

I think you know the answer to that.

Shadow Lodge

You're attacking with your gun, which you hold in your hand. So the attack made with the gun deals +d6 points of elemental damage, delivered through the bullet. Magic ranged weapons bestow their properties on ammunition. I don't see what makes this different in principle.


Weirdo wrote:
You're attacking with your gun, which you hold in your hand. So the attack made with the gun deals +d6 points of elemental damage, delivered through the bullet. Magic ranged weapons bestow their properties on ammunition. I don't see what makes this different in principle.

The fact that your arms are literally covered in that element, and you're not somehow temporarily enchanting your gun.


Rynjin wrote:

The real question is, are you attacking with the weapons held in those hands or with the bullets fired out of them?

I think you know the answer to that.

Yes, I do know the answer to that. You're attacking with a weapon, not the ammunition. Otherwise ammunition would be listed in the weapons section, and not in its own separate thing.


Daelen wrote:


Yes, I do know the answer to that. You're attacking with a weapon, not the ammunition. Otherwise ammunition would be listed in the weapons section, and not in its own separate thing.

So you're pistol whipping them?

Otherwise, you're not attacking them with the gun.

The not-so-common commodity strikes again.


You attack with weapons, not with ammunition. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I make an attack with a sling, not with a sling bullet. I make an attack with a bow, not with an arrow. I make an attack with a gun, not with a bullet.


Daelen wrote:
You attack with weapons, not with ammunition. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I make an attack with a sling, not with a sling bullet. I make an attack with a bow, not with an arrow. I make an attack with a gun, not with a bullet.

But you're not hitting them with the sling, gun, or bow.

You're hitting them with the stone, bullet, or arrow.

You get me? It doesn't make any logical sense that this would work. It works by sheathing the Suli's hands in elemental energy, much like a touch attack or Elemental Fist.

Are you saying touch attacks or other spells should be able to be fired through guns normally? Spellslinger disagrees.

Are you saying you should be able to just channel a spell through a bow and arrow normally? Arcane Archer disagrees.

Should a Zen Archer Monk be able to get Elemental Fist and completely obsolete Arcane Archer? Should a regular Monk be able to Flurry Shuriken that do 1d6 (or more if he's a Four Winds or he's got Dragon Ferocity) elemental damage?

There's no logical way to arrive at the conclusion that Elemental Assault allows elemental gun attacks other than the same logic that fuels hypotheticals like "It doesn't SAY I can't act while I'm dead."

Shadow Lodge

If it limited the elemental damage to unarmed strikes only, like touch spells or Elemental Fist, that analogy would make sense. But the elemental energy is already travelling up the melee weapon. Why can't it travel up a ranged weapon and onto the ammunition? Or onto a thrown weapon?


Weirdo wrote:
If it limited the elemental damage to unarmed strikes only, like touch spells or Elemental Fist, that analogy would make sense. But the elemental energy is already travelling up the melee weapon. Why can't it travel up a ranged weapon and onto the ammunition? Or onto a thrown weapon?

Why can't a Magus make touch attacks with bows?

Shadow Lodge

Because Spellstrike specifically restricts the ability to "any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." Elemental Assault applies to weapons held. A ranged weapon is still held. Unless the ability specifically excludes ranged weapons, it should therefore apply.


Last I checked, ammunition doesn't have damage dice and you can't really attack with something that doesn't deal any damage. The weapon determines the damage you deal, not the ammunition, and you're holding the weapon in your hands.


Weirdo wrote:
Because Spellstrike specifically restricts the ability to "any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." Elemental Assault applies to weapons held. A ranged weapon is still held. Unless the ability specifically excludes ranged weapons, it should therefore apply.

And if they removed that part of the description would you, knowing full well that that's not even close to what they meant, decide the Magus can make magic bow/gun attacks?

Does an Ifrit's Scorching Weapon ability apply to ranged attacks? According to you it would, even though it works by heating up the weapon in hand to deal fire damage.

The only leg you have to stand on here is "it doesn't say I CAN'T" and that's not good enough.

Harrison wrote:
Last I checked, ammunition doesn't have damage dice and you can't really attack with something that doesn't deal any damage. The weapon determines the damage you deal, not the ammunition, and you're holding the weapon in your hands.

So do you rule in your home games that ranged weapons require no ammo to fire?


Rynjin wrote:
Harrison wrote:
Last I checked, ammunition doesn't have damage dice and you can't really attack with something that doesn't deal any damage. The weapon determines the damage you deal, not the ammunition, and you're holding the weapon in your hands.
So do you rule in your home games that ranged weapons require no ammo to fire?

Ranged weapons still require ammunition, but as I said and you probably ignored, it's not the ammunition that determines the damage you deal, it's the weapon and the weapon is the thing you're holding.


Harrison wrote:
Ranged weapons still require ammunition, but as I said and you probably ignored, it's not the ammunition that determines the damage you deal, it's the weapon and the weapon is the thing you're holding.

The weapon is the thing you're holding but it's not the thing that you hit the enemy with.

The bow transfers physical force and some enchantments to the arrows it fires, yes.

This is not an enchantment. It is a literal sheath of energy over the Suli's hands. If you were to pistol whip someone with the gun, yeah sure deal Elemental damage. But this sheath covers your arms and the weapon, it doesn't siphon off and infuse itself into the bullets as well.

You can't just pick up a rock and throw it and expect it to work either. It is a sheath around your arms.

While we're talking about ignoring things, maybe you should look into that part as well. The elemental power is not even in the weapon. It is on their hands and arms, and attacks with weapons held in them deal that type of damage, likely due to proximity to the raging bonfire or dripping acid.

As I said before, it requires practical application of the not-so-common commodity of common sense.

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
And if they removed that part of the description would you, knowing full well that that's not even close to what they meant, decide the Magus can make magic bow/gun attacks?

Yes, because if they remove that part from the description and said that a Magus can Spellstrike with "any weapon he is wielding" then they probably meant to allow the Magus to make ranged Spellstrike attacks.

Rynjin wrote:
Does an Ifrit's Scorching Weapon ability apply to ranged attacks? According to you it would, even though it works by heating up the weapon in hand to deal fire damage.

Yes I would apply it. It says "held manufactured metallic weapon." That absolutely applies for a thrown dagger or shuriken, and I see no reason why an arrowhead couldn't get red-hot through this ability, or a metallic bullet.

Rynjin wrote:
The only leg you have to stand on here is "it doesn't say I CAN'T" and that's not good enough.

It says "weapon." Unless otherwise stated, "weapon" includes both melee and ranged.

Would you say that Arcane Strike doesn't improve ranged attacks because the ammunition isn't affected, or because once the thrown weapon leaves your hand it isn't enhanced anymore?

Rynjin wrote:

This is not an enchantment. It is a literal sheath of energy over the Suli's hands. If you were to pistol whip someone with the gun, yeah sure deal Elemental damage. But this sheath covers your arms and the weapon, it doesn't siphon off and infuse itself into the bullets as well.

You can't just pick up a rock and throw it and expect it to work either. It is a sheath around your arms.

While we're talking about ignoring things, maybe you should look into that part as well. The elemental power is not even in the weapon. It is on their hands and arms, and attacks with weapons held in them deal that type of damage, likely due to proximity to the raging bonfire or dripping acid.

As I said before, it requires practical application of the not-so-common commodity of common sense.

This is all fluff. You are interpreting a limitation on how far the sheath of energy can spread, and this limitation is not anywhere in the description of the ability. Your wording even admits that this is your interpretation - you say the energy damage on a weapon is "likely due to proximity with the raging bonfire or dripping acid," but it could just as likely be because the sheath actually spreads over your held weapon or ammunition.

Besides, even by your fluff, if you pick up a rock with your sheathed-in-acid hands and drip acid all over it, that acid shouldn't disappear when you throw the rock. If you hold a dagger or an arrow with flaming hands, that dagger or arrow is still hot when you launch it.


Weirdo wrote:


Yes, because if they remove that part from the description and said that a Magus can Spellstrike with "any weapon he is wielding" then they probably meant to allow the Magus to make ranged Spellstrike attacks.

Well at least you're consistent.

Weirdo wrote:


Yes I would apply it. It says "held manufactured metallic weapon." That absolutely applies for a thrown dagger or shuriken, and I see no reason why an arrowhead couldn't get red-hot through this ability, or a metallic bullet.

Well I say that and then this happens.

Make up your mind. Do you consider the ammunition to be dealing the damage or the "weapon"?

If the latter, the bow would catch fire and go away, if the former it might work if you could focus it to just the arrowhead.

Weirdo wrote:


It says "weapon." Unless otherwise stated, "weapon" includes both melee and ranged.

Would you say that Arcane Strike doesn't improve ranged attacks because the ammunition isn't affected, or because once the thrown weapon leaves your hand it isn't enhanced anymore?

But here you see the main difference.

Arcane strike says: "you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power".

It specifically says you put the power into the WEAPON.

Now look at Elemental Assault: "a suli can shroud her arms in acid, cold, electricity, or fire...Unarmed strikes with her arms or hands (or attacks with weapons held in those hands) deal +1d6 points of damage of the appropriate energy type"

Superficially they may look the same, but try to understand the difference here. The Suli infuses her ARMS and then the weapon or hand deals damage. The Suli does not infuse the WEAPON.

That's what I've been trying to get at here. You may very well be covering your ranged weapon with Fire/Acid/Whatever, but there's no indication that it actually DOES anything unless you smack 'em with it.

Weirdo wrote:


This is all fluff. You are interpreting a limitation on how far the sheath of energy can spread, and this limitation is not anywhere in the description of the ability. Your wording even admits that this is your interpretation - you say the energy damage on a weapon is "likely due to proximity with the raging bonfire or dripping acid," but it could just as likely be because the sheath actually spreads over your held weapon or ammunition.

Besides, even by your fluff, if you pick up a rock with your sheathed-in-acid hands and drip acid all over it, that acid shouldn't disappear when you throw the rock. If you hold a dagger or an arrow with flaming hands, that dagger or arrow is still hot when you launch it.

And it would by that logic also make sense that someone with Elemental Fist or Elemental Assault could make vials of Acid for free a certain number of times per day by allowing the Acid to drip off their hands into the vial. Obviously this isn't the case, so the acid DOES disappear at some point.

Where we seem to be differing in opinion is WHEN does the acid disappear? I say "immediately upon leaving your body", because for one thing, the acid doesn't linger on your opponent to deal acid damage over following rounds.

You seem to be of the opinion that it is "an indeterminate amount of time later" and I'd be happy to hear why you think that.

I'm not familiar with Flaming Hands and I can't find it, if you'd be so kind as to give me a link/quote I'll look at it.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:

Well I say that and then this happens.

Make up your mind. Do you consider the ammunition to be dealing the damage or the "weapon"?

If the latter, the bow would catch fire and go away, if the former it might work if you could focus it to just the arrowhead.

Well, are we making these decisions based on RAW or fluff? By RAW, the ability functions on a metallic weapon. Ammunition isn't a weapon, and since the weapon - the bow - isn't metallic it doesn't work. By fluff and interpretation, if you can heat up the metallic business end of a polearm through its wooden haft you should be able to do the same with an arrowhead.

Either way, the thrown dagger should work just as well as a melee dagger, though.

Quote:

Arcane strike says: "you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power".

It specifically says you put the power into the WEAPON.

Now look at Elemental Assault: "a suli can shroud her arms in acid, cold, electricity, or fire...Unarmed strikes with her arms or hands (or attacks with weapons held in those hands) deal +1d6 points of damage of the appropriate energy type"

Superficially they may look the same, but try to understand the difference here. The Suli infuses her ARMS and then the weapon or hand deals damage. The Suli does not infuse the WEAPON.

That's what I've been trying to get at here. You may very well be covering your ranged weapon with Fire/Acid/Whatever, but there's no indication that it actually DOES anything unless you smack 'em with it.

And with Arcane Strike, you put the power into the weapon, not the ammunition, and so it doesn't do anything unless you hit someone with your bow.

If the Suli is just putting the power into their arms, it shouldn't do anything to the weapon at all. Since the ability adds damage to weapon attacks, the weapon is clearly affected by this ability. If as you suggested earlier it's just "proximity" to the arms and hands that does the damage, reach weapons should also do no extra damage from Elemental Assault, and there's nothing that suggests that is the case. And since it would be incredibly easy to write "melee weapon" rather than "weapon," it's a safe bet that the effect on the weapon was intended to be inclusive of ranged weapons and their ammunition.

Quote:

And it would by that logic also make sense that someone with Elemental Fist or Elemental Assault could make vials of Acid for free a certain number of times per day by allowing the Acid to drip off their hands into the vial. Obviously this isn't the case, so the acid DOES disappear at some point.

Where we seem to be differing in opinion is WHEN does the acid disappear? I say "immediately upon leaving your body", because for one thing, the acid doesn't linger on your opponent to deal acid damage over following rounds.

You seem to be of the opinion that it is "an indeterminate amount of time later" and I'd be happy to hear why you think that.

I think the acid, heat, cold, or electricity on a thrown weapon or projectile lasts until the end of the attack roll, for the split second that the object is in flight. The attack does its extra damage, but there's no opportunity to harvest anything or hand off charged weapons or ammunition to another character.

Quote:
I'm not familiar with Flaming Hands and I can't find it, if you'd be so kind as to give me a link/quote I'll look at it.

That was shorthand for "hands that are sheathed in fire due to Elemental Assault."


We could go back and forth like this all night, so I say FAQ it and hope someone answers. I personally still believe that it doesn't make a lick of sense for it to apply to ranged weapons, but you've obviously put some thought into the opposite side of that coin, so let's see if we can get word from on high.

Shadow Lodge

Sure. If it is only intended to work with melee attacks, I'd like to know. Not sure the two of us counts as "frequent," though.


Yay I caused a long discussion on something I assumed I was just missing something on!

Grand Lodge

Actually, it's just one person who disagrees.

The ability works with held ranged weapons, as per RAW.


Come on now folks. The absolute implication here is that the Suli's energy damage can only be channeled through a melee weapon, unarmed melee strike etc. The wording doesn't say specifically that you can't use it on ranged weapons because it's obvious. If it said everything it doesn't work for that would fill a book.
I even have textual evidence that this is the intended reading of the ability. Cast your eyes down into the alternate racial abilities. One of them has you focus on only one element in exchange for a special trick or subability. What's the big prize for only doing fire? The ability to ranged:
Firehand (fire): Instead of adding damage to a melee attack, the suli may hurl a piece of her arm-flames as if it were a thrown weapon. The suli makes a ranged touch attack; if the attack hits, the target takes 1d6 points of fire damage. The flames have a range increment of 10 feet.
Reread that first sentence. Then do it again. That absolute implication is that normally, you can only go melee with this.
I rest my case!

AtD

Shadow Lodge

It's definitely not obvious it doesn't work on ranged weapons. In the three years since this question was originally raised we got clarification that Deliquescent Gloves, which also cause your hands to drip acid, affect ranged attacks.

I also don't think that the Firehand ability is only useful if elemental Assault is normally limited to melee attacks. Being able to make a ranged touch attack, and without actually having a ranged weapon in hand, is still useful - about as useful as the other focused abilities like "you can ignore 5ft worth of difficult terrain that is earthy or stony."

The fact that it says "Instead of adding damage to a melee attack" does raise the question of whether elemental assault was actually intended to be restricted to a melee attack. However I don't think it's conclusive since it's possible that the person writing the alternate trait made assumptions about elemental assault when writing the alternate trait due to the thematics - but RAW there is no such limitation in Elemental Assault.

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