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RPG Superstar 2015

Clerics have no capstones?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Even wizards get a small bump in their specialized school ability, why doesn't the cleric?


Huh, I never noticed this before...

Though most Domains get a Nice 9th level spell a bit earlier don't they.

So a Cleric could potentially get 2 very wonderful 9th level spells. The fact that the get them added to their Spell List and have a domain slot to prepare them and that they get them earlier probably makes most people not care.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nope, they don't.

I seem to recall them saying it was a mistake.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

7 people marked this as a favorite.

The cleric's capstone ability is called "I'm a 20th level cleric, b****es!"

Marathon Voter 2013

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
The cleric's capstone ability is called "I'm a 20th level cleric, b****es!"

No it isn't. If you actually read the class table and abilities, you'll see they have no 20th level ability.


I still feel the spells make up for it...

Grand Lodge

Clerics do get their domain slot at the appropriate level to be casting 9th level spells. Just like a specialist wizard gets an extra slot to memorize any one spell from his or her preferred school of magic.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Cheapy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
The cleric's capstone ability is called "I'm a 20th level cleric, b****es!"
No it isn't. If you actually read the class table and abilities, you'll see they have no 20th level ability.

Way to kill my joke, Cheapy. Sheesh. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I never noticed, took a lot an Cleric, Druids, Witches and Wizards don't get a Capstone. Interesting all the prepared full spell casters, Sorcerer get 20th level blood capstone though. I guess that's because the sorcerer is so much weaker.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wizards get one (based on their school), Druids get one (at-will wildshape), and witches get a "grand hex" at 18th and twenty, so their capstone is split across 2 levels.

Clerics don't really get anything :)

Shadow Lodge

With the Exception of the 4 Elemental Domains, (Immunity to an energy type), but yah, all other classes do.

I made the suggestion that @20th, Clerics count themselves as a Divine Focus (including expensive ones) and add all Domain spells from ONE of their Domains to the normal Cleric Spell List, which the devs thought was good, but I don't know what ever happened to that thread.

Grand Lodge

Cheapy wrote:

Wizards get one (based on their school), Druids get one (at-will wildshape), and witches get a "grand hex" at 18th and twenty, so their capstone is split across 2 levels.

Clerics don't really get anything :)

Universlaist wizards don't get one...

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I had realized that people were going to be so pedantic about it, I would've gladly listed all the exceptions to the rule.


Don't the Domain spells automatically count as Cleric Spells?


I'm not being pedantic.....whats a pedantic?


Wait what!?

Shadow Lodge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Don't the Domain spells automatically count as Cleric Spells?

Yes and no. Domain Spells (in this case meaning spells that appear on a Domain list level 1-9), that are not also on te generic Cleric Spell List, can only be prepaired in the single Domain Slot.

For example, the Fire Domain's 1st level Domain Spell is Burning Hands, which is not a Cleric Spell. A Cleric with the Fire Domain can only prepair Burning Hands in that extra Domain Slot, not their normal Cleric Domain spell Slots, nor the bonus spells from high Wis.

When the Cleric casts it, yes, it is a Divine and a Cleric Spell, because the caster is a Cleric and casts Divine Spells.


"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Don't the Domain spells automatically count as Cleric Spells?

Yes and no. Domain Spells (in this case meaning spells that appear on a Domain list level 1-9), that are not also on te generic Cleric Spell List, can only be prepaired in the single Domain Slot.

For example, the Fire Domain's 1st level Domain Spell is Burning Hands, which is not a Cleric Spell. A Cleric with the Fire Domain can only prepair Burning Hands in that extra Domain Slot, not their normal Cleric Domain spell Slots, nor the bonus spells from high Wis.

When the Cleric casts it, yes, it is a Divine and a Cleric Spell, because the caster is a Cleric and casts Divine Spells.

That just wow... so a Cleric will hardly have any generic attack spells will they...

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They're pretty good at casting Smash.


Smash? or Shatter?

Shadow Lodge

Shatter is worthless, unless the vial containing a potion is a nonmagical item.

They do have some decent spells, don't get me wrong, but yes, the Cleric Spell List, (even with Domain Spells) is prbably the worst of all main casters, and many partial caster classes. But they can freely cast in armor and do other stuff. I think, honeslty, it's still a little of an overcompensation for the armord casting, but occasionally you get some real gems on the Cleric Spell List.


Clerics seem more of a Spell Based Buff Caster more than anything...


The cleric has, mostly, been meant to use it's weapons and heavy armor - enhanced by spells - to wade into battle, rather than be a more directly offensive spellcaster.

Which is why they have spells like righteous might rather than lightning bolt.

That is why they have the "worst" spell list of the main casters (personally I think that druids actually do, but hey - the shapeshifting makes up for that, even as toned down as it is in Pathfinder compared to prior versions of the ability).

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

They can be. They can do a lot of things, but not a lot of things great. I dn't mean that in the jack-of-all-trades sense, or that they are poor at doing many things.

They can be ok as a tank/dps, party face, healer/buffer, or even party spellcaster. They can fill in many roles that a party lacks, even fairly well on the fly. Some of those things require a build, whie some can be accomplished by switching around spells for the day. But an Oracle will always be a better spellcaster, healer/buffer, and probably party face if any decent amount of effort is put inot it. A Wizard/Sorcerer will always be a better spellcaster, likewise. After a few levels, a Paladin will be better at almost all of these than the Cleric. Practially any ther half-combat class will be a better tank/dps than the Cleric, including the Rogue. The Cleric, fluff and by party demand, walks a fine line close to an NPC tagalong sometimes, or can be a normal contributing character, it really depends. Clerics are also terribly attribute dependant, and being a primary spellcaster class, really have all thr drawbacks and few of the options o the spellcaster class side, and the one thing that they will really severely lack in is Skill Points, pretty much no matter what you do (minus rolling very good stats all around).

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Smash. It's a great spell, and spells like Divine Power help it a lot.

Also, clerics in PF don't receive heavy armor proficiency anymore.

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

The cleric has, mostly, been meant to use it's weapons and heavy armor - enhanced by spells - to wade into battle, rather than be a more directly offensive spellcaster.

Which is why they have spells like righteous might rather than lightning bolt.

That is why they have the "worst" spell list of the main casters (personally I think that druids actually do, but hey - the shapeshifting makes up for that, even as toned down as it is in Pathfinder compared to prior versions of the ability).

The only reasons I say Druids are a lot better than Clerics as far as spells go is that

1.) Cleric spells really suck when it comes to advancement. Many cap out very quickly, or where nerfed so that their higher level abilities do not keep up. That, and there are a few levels, where the generic (and even the newer added spells) all kind of suck for that entire spell level.

2.) Cleric spels almost universally do not stack and offer the most common types of bonuses 1-9th level, while Druids get mor access to things like Natural Armor (vs Deflection), and uncommon options otherwise. Cleric Spells tend to be much more circumstantial while Druid's spells tend to be much more open to convient use in a variaty of circumstances.

3.) Druids also tend to get a lot of variaty in spells, have a good deal of offensive, either damage or crowd control, and can spont Summon.

4.) and indirectly, Druids actually get class features, both in and out of combat. Wild Shape, a Pet, and all kinds of passive abilities and immunities. Druids do not need as many good stats as the Cleric as well, allowing them to focus on those much easier.

5.) I think Paizo is a bit scarred to give anything newcoolshiney to the Cleric, too.

Don't get me wrong, I like Clerics. I just think that Paizo did a bad job when it came to the class, particularly when you see how they did handle other classes. Flavor, machanics, and utility, all took backwards steps from 3.5 in this case. Cleric is the top of my wishlist for a Pathfinder 2.0, but it's doubtful. :)


I can't find Smash anywhere...

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Focus component is a usually a mace, but can also be any simple weapon or a deity's favored weapon. The basic spell is that you roll a d20, add your BAB and strength and other modifiers, and see if you beat the target's AC. If you do, you do some damage that's based on the spell's focus component. It doesn't usually provoke AoOs either, which is nice.

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

It's a joke.

In the old days, everyone wanted a Cleric in the party, but no one wanted to play the Cleric Well, that's still mostly true. This led to people building a Cleric, and playing it like everyone else plays every ther class, focusing on themselves and contributing themselves. They might Buff the party while they where buffing themselves, basically buff up and wade into battle right next to the Fighter rather than standing behind them and zapping them with a buff or two inbetween Cures as was expected (under the your playing the Cleric this time clause). This usually forced th Fighter and Rogue types, mostly the Fightery-types though to , dun, dun, dun, realize they couldn't just wade into any battle and swing and act dumb. They actually had to act like they new tactics like everyone else, and conserve spells, and resources and stuff. Lamentations of the women <eh insert dumb fighters here> where heard all over the land.

He is pretty much saying that Cleric Smash = Divine Power + Righteous Might + Divine Favor + Bull's Strength + just full attacking with a big mace.


Beckett wrote:

They can be. They can do a lot of things, but not a lot of things great. I dn't mean that in the jack-of-all-trades sense, or that they are poor at doing many things.

They can be ok as a tank/dps, party face, healer/buffer, or even party spellcaster. They can fill in many roles that a party lacks, even fairly well on the fly. Some of those things require a build, whie some can be accomplished by switching around spells for the day. But an Oracle will always be a better spellcaster, healer/buffer, and probably party face if any decent amount of effort is put inot it. A Wizard/Sorcerer will always be a better spellcaster, likewise. After a few levels, a Paladin will be better at almost all of these than the Cleric. Practially any ther half-combat class will be a better tank/dps than the Cleric, including the Rogue. The Cleric, fluff and by party demand, walks a fine line close to an NPC tagalong sometimes, or can be a normal contributing character, it really depends. Clerics are also terribly attribute dependant, and being a primary spellcaster class, really have all thr drawbacks and few of the options o the spellcaster class side, and the one thing that they will really severely lack in is Skill Points, pretty much no matter what you do (minus rolling very good stats all around).

So what is a Cleric good at? I'm tired so seeing them treated and buff monkeys and half-tanks. Clerics are rather two dimentional, and that isn't fair.


Where is Smash?

And Clerics feel more like a bridge between a PC Class and an NPC Class...

I normally play my Clerics like I play my Combat Bards.


Beckett wrote:

They can be. They can do a lot of things, but not a lot of things great. I dn't mean that in the jack-of-all-trades sense, or that they are poor at doing many things.

They can be ok as a tank/dps, party face, healer/buffer, or even party spellcaster. They can fill in many roles that a party lacks, even fairly well on the fly. Some of those things require a build, whie some can be accomplished by switching around spells for the day. But an Oracle will always be a better spellcaster, healer/buffer, and probably party face if any decent amount of effort is put inot it. A Wizard/Sorcerer will always be a better spellcaster, likewise. After a few levels, a Paladin will be better at almost all of these than the Cleric. Practially any ther half-combat class will be a better tank/dps than the Cleric, including the Rogue. The Cleric, fluff and by party demand, walks a fine line close to an NPC tagalong sometimes, or can be a normal contributing character, it really depends. Clerics are also terribly attribute dependant, and being a primary spellcaster class, really have all thr drawbacks and few of the options o the spellcaster class side, and the one thing that they will really severely lack in is Skill Points, pretty much no matter what you do (minus rolling very good stats all around).

@ Beckett - just out of curiosity, how is an Oracle a better spellcaster than a cleric? Also, how is a paladin a better spellcaster than a cleric? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be a jerk.

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

Luna_Silvertear wrote:
So what is a Cleric good at? I'm tired so seeing them treated and buff monkeys and half-tanks. Clerics are rather two dimentional, and that isn't fair.

They are good at a lot of things. I apologiz, I didn't mean to make it sound like Clerics are all bad. They are not. They are good at keeping the party alive, sometimes no matter just how dumb they are. They are generally pretty good at both self and party buffing, or unexpectadly screwing over a single encounter enemy, like with Command. They tend ot have really good saves, and if you pick a great Domain, occasionally have an interesting power. They tend to also be pretty good at saving money, both for the party and for themselves. When I said above that their spells almost universally offer the most common bonuses, you can (partially) use that to your advantage and look for the longer duration spells and self buff. For example, by casting 1 or 2 Magic Vestments, you can pretty much either go without magic armor/shield or stack up on special properties cheaper. Same thing for a weapon with Greater Magic Weapon. This means you can buy more wands, scrolls, and potions, as well as other nifty things than the other characters while still being practically at the same "gear level". Non-good Clerics get some really fun abilities, too, so don't neglect that option.

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

DM Locke wrote:
@ Beckett - just out of curiosity, how is an Oracle a better spellcaster than a cleric? Also, how is a paladin a better spellcaster than a cleric? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be a jerk.

It's really a matter of opinion, I guess. I think that Paizo assumed the Cleric and Oracle would be very similar to the Wizard and Sorcerer, and they are, to a point. The issue is, that the Oracle is much less stat dependant, and unlike the Wizard/Sorcerer dichotomy, the Cleric already only has a handful of spells at each level they really prep and cast anyway. Giving the oracle the ability to cast those spells in any order/number they need, practicaly the same actual number of spells chosen, but usable more per day. Oracles dont need to divide their stats nearly as much, so they usually have much better Save DCs than a Cleric will, and Mysteries offer a lot more options for custimazation than Domains, by far. The Cleric basically makes all Class Feature chices at 1st level, (1-20), while the Oracle gets to pick from a lot of options along the way, as well as have an inbuilt passive ability from their Curse. An Oracle and a Cleric built reasonably well at the same sort of focus, the Oracle will always come out better. The Cleric's main advantage is that they can swap out spells daily, but like I have mentioned, in the practicale sense, this is not that great. Both classes generally share the same common spells prepped, and relly on Wands and scrolls for those rare spells when needed.

The Paladin is a little different. They are not a better spellcaster than the Cleric, but a Paladin can self Heal as a swift action, has a lot of amazing self buffs or outright immunities automatically (no action required) and even autoshares them with nearby allies, or can use Lay on Hands to basically cherry pick on the spot what needed Cleric spells they want right then, all while also contributing in a more useful way, too.


Beckett wrote:
DM Locke wrote:
@ Beckett - just out of curiosity, how is an Oracle a better spellcaster than a cleric? Also, how is a paladin a better spellcaster than a cleric? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be a jerk.

It's really a matter of opinion, I guess. I think that Paizo assumed the Cleric and Oracle would be very similar to the Wizard and Sorcerer, and they are, to a point. The issue is, that the Oracle is much less stat dependant, and unlike the Wizard/Sorcerer dichotomy, the Cleric already only has a handful of spells at each level they really prep and cast anyway. Giving the oracle the ability to cast those spells in any order/number they need, practicaly the same actual number of spells chosen, but usable more per day. Oracles dont need to divide their stats nearly as much, so they usually have much better Save DCs than a Cleric will, and Mysteries offer a lot more options for custimazation than Domains, by far. The Cleric basically makes all Class Feature chices at 1st level, (1-20), while the Oracle gets to pick from a lot of options along the way, as well as have an inbuilt passive ability from their Curse. An Oracle and a Cleric built reasonably well at the same sort of focus, the Oracle will always come out better. The Cleric's main advantage is that they can swap out spells daily, but like I have mentioned, in the practicale sense, this is not that great. Both classes generally share the same common spells prepped, and relly on Wands and scrolls for those rare spells when needed.

The Paladin is a little different. They are not a better spellcaster than the Cleric, but a Paladin can self Heal as a swift action, has a lot of amazing self buffs or outright immunities automatically (no action required) and even autoshares them with nearby allies, or can use Lay on Hands to basically cherry pick on the spot what needed Cleric spells they want right then, all while also contributing in a more useful way, too.

I do agree with your points about the Paladin. He sort of eats the cleric's lunch on healing and dominates him in combat, aside from some boosts the cleric can take via spells. Even his channeling is very likely to have a better DC than the clerics.

I'm not necessarily saying Poor Old Cleric here, but reading the Paladin's entry for the first time in the core rules sort of made me think "Who will want to play the cleric now, when this guy can do all of this?". It's sort of an uphill battle to get players to play what used to be, and sort of still is (even if it's mostly nostalgia) my favourite class.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Smash is an At will power possessed by CoDZilla. it deals more damage than meteor swarm, has no saving throw, targets real AC, requires a weapon as a divine focus, doesn't consume a spell slot, and threatens a critical hit using the weapon's range and multiplier.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Smash is an At will power possessed by CoDZilla. it deals more damage than meteor swarm, has no saving throw, targets real AC, requires a weapon as a divine focus, doesn't consume a spell slot, and threatens a critical hit using the weapon's range and multiplier.

What's CoDzilla mean?


Run, Just Run wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Smash is an At will power possessed by CoDZilla. it deals more damage than meteor swarm, has no saving throw, targets real AC, requires a weapon as a divine focus, doesn't consume a spell slot, and threatens a critical hit using the weapon's range and multiplier.
What's CoDzilla mean?

Cleric or Druid Zilla. it is a comparison of martially oriented clerics and druids to Godzilla that started within the WotC community. it can also refer to other divine casters who utilize the spell list of either one of the two. such as favored souls, oracles, or spirit shamans. though the better builds used the cleric list unless they had some way to polymorph into a pouncing natural attacking machine for long periods of time.


OK so where does it come from?


I'd love the cleric to have some type of capstone but I can understand why there hasn't been a particular rush to correct this oversight. Every time a divine prepared caster gains an odd level, they gain access to an assortment of spells which can potentially change the shape of a game. Even if the cleric (or druid) doesn't have the right spell at the right time, he might the next day.


Create Demiplane. IIRC that is a Cleric only spell. Don't quote me I am on my phone and can't search.


Azaelas:

Create Demiplane is Cleric8, Sorc/Wiz8, Summoner6, and Witch8
Lesser version is: Cleric7, Sorc/Wiz7, Summoner5, and Witch7
Greater version is: Cleric9, Sorc/Wiz9, and Witch9

- Gauss


I don't know that a cleric is really a good buffer, at least compared to the wizard.

That said, I think a lot of the problems people have with clerics is that no matter what they are the ones that have to cure the diseases, poisonings, and apply band-aids, as well as remove curses, fix ability damage, and lost levels. Plus they have to bring people back from the dead on occasion.

A lot of people make the argument that healing in combat is suboptimal, which I believe to be true. But no matter how you do it, the things I mentioned in the above paragraph inevitably have to be done.

I don't really think it would be a big deal if clerics could prepare their domain spells as regular spells. A large chunk of their daily spells would still be used up on things a wizard (any arcane caster) just doesn't have to deal with because he can't, or the cleric usually does it.

I also think it would be useful for clerics to be able to add the cure disease, cure poison, restoration, and heal spells to the list of things they can spontaneously cast like cure light wounds.

Not to mention, that the whole evil/good cleric thing as regards cure spells is wonky. Not very many people get much use out of being able to cast spontaneous inflict spells. Well unless they are tooling around with an undead army. The cleric spells are pretty lame for things like damage, but there are lot of spells even on that list that are more useful to cast than inflict spells in a fight.

If you are an evil cleric, there is a good chance you seldom use that class feature. Not to mention that if you channel negative energy you pretty much have to pick up the selective channeling feat.

Unless you have a special group, or roll around with a lot of corpses in your party.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

I would've liked to see a capstone dealing with chanelled energy. Maybe maximize or quicken the effect three times per day.


Gauss wrote:

Azaelas:

Create Demiplane is Cleric8, Sorc/Wiz8, Summoner6, and Witch8
Lesser version is: Cleric7, Sorc/Wiz7, Summoner5, and Witch7
Greater version is: Cleric9, Sorc/Wiz9, and Witch9

- Gauss

Ok then. I have only ever had a Cleric who even wanted that spell...


I dont know why you would only want it as a cleric. I want it as a Wizard in order to create magic items faster. Then again, Plane Shift can accomplish that much faster albeit less safely.

- Gauss


Generic Villain wrote:
I would've liked to see a capstone dealing with chanelled energy. Maybe maximize or quicken the effect three times per day.

Maybe add a Banishment Effect against one Evil/Good Outsiders inside the radius per channel.

Gauss wrote:

I dont know why you would only want it as a cleric. I want it as a Wizard in order to create magic items faster. Then again, Plane Shift can accomplish that much faster albeit less safely.

- Gauss

The thing is the Wizards in my group usually don't bother.


CoDZilla isn't as OP as it used to be.

the big component for DruidZilla was cheating the costs on physical attributes with 3.5 wildshape. which was full on replacement. this, combined with the natural spell feat, made it an excellent gish the moment it transformed into some kind of feline. pounce is pretty damn powerful because there was really no other way to move and full attack in the same turn. building a SpiritShamanZilla required you to somehow acquire wildshape with minimal loss to spellcasting ability. the big nerf to DruidZilla was the stealth nerf to wildshape caused by the nerf to polymorph.

the big components for Clericzilla were the large number of stackable buffs, divine metamagic, an infinitely stackable low cost magic item from libris mortis, and a means to cheaply cheat durations. by using multiple of said item to utilize DMM persist and keep your buffs up for 24 hours at a time. building a Favoredsoulzilla required a means to aqcuire turn undead (the once otherwise useless ability that channel energy replaced in pathfinder) with minimal loss to your spellcasting ability. this was a lot easier than it was for SpiritShamanZilla. it merely took a single level of cleric. the big nerfs to ClericZilla were making Turning Useful (calling it channel energy and making it an AoE heal instead), various spell nerfs, and not grandfathering in divine metamagic.


I am still curious as to how exactly one used/uses Smash...

yes I know I sound like a Noob. I am just curious is all.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I am still curious as to how exactly one used/uses Smash...

yes I know I sound like a Noob. I am just curious is all.

Smash is merely another word for attack with a weapon. fighters and barbarians can do it too.

Lumi wrote:

Smash is an At will power possessed by CoDZilla. it deals more damage than meteor swarm, has no saving throw, targets real AC, requires a weapon as a divine focus, doesn't consume a spell slot, and threatens a critical hit using the weapon's threat range and multiplier.

attack

At will, check
more damage than meteor swarm, check
targets real AC, check
doesn't consume a spell slot, check
uses the weapons reach, threat range and multiplier, check
uses a weapon as an implement, check

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