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Clerics have no capstones?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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I meant what spells are typically used...


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I meant what spells are typically used...

in 3.5, for clerics it was a combination of divine power, divine favor, and righteous might, all persistent through divine metamagic to get around the durations and thus the action economy. essentially, you needed lots of uses of that useless turn undead (the 3.5 predescessor of channel energy) to use a DMM persist fodder. 6 per buff, and clerics often Dumped Charisma, luckily, there was this really cheap infinitely stackable magic item in libris mortis called a nightstick, which each one, held 4 extra uses per day. with 4 or 5 of them, depending on charisma score. your could get your 3 main buffs for 24 hours, plus you needed 3 more for every 2 other buffs you wished to sustain.

in pathfinder, the routine is instead, weapon of Awe, Righteous might, Divine Favor/Power. weapon of awe and divine favor, worked best when quickened to save buffing time.

other useful, but circumstantial buffs are, align weapon, greater magic weapon/vestment, and there were a lot of really good buffs in the spell compendium.

for the druid, it was mostly wildshape, greater magic fang, and wild metamagicked persistant barkskin.

the difference between divine and wild metamagic, was the former used turning attempts, the latter used wild shape uses. both to cheat metamagic costs. but it was harder to stack wildshape uses than turning attempts. but extra wildshape uses weren't needed because the duration pretty much lasted all day.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, the Smash spell is just a joke. Divine Power is nice for it, as is blessings of fervor. At lower levels, divine favor is merely OK. Due to some odd wording, it doesn't actually start to scale up til level 6 or 9. I forget which. Bull's strength is nice too.

And the stealth nerf really wasn't so much a stealth nerf so much as a fourth of the reason for PFS :-)


Cheapy wrote:

Yeah, the Smash spell is just a joke. Divine Power is nice for it, as is blessings of fervor. At lower levels, divine favor is merely OK. Due to some odd wording, it doesn't actually start to scale up til level 6 or 9. I forget which. Bull's strength is nice too.

I figured out it was a joke soon after one of my earlier posts.

Cheapy wrote:


And the stealth nerf really wasn't so much a stealth nerf so much as a fourth of the reason for PFS :-)

I am not sure what you mean by this.

Also how exactly did/does wild shape/polymorph spells work?

And yes I have never had a druid in my Groups. at least not one that lasted long or used Wild Shape.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Yeah, the Smash spell is just a joke. Divine Power is nice for it, as is blessings of fervor. At lower levels, divine favor is merely OK. Due to some odd wording, it doesn't actually start to scale up til level 6 or 9. I forget which. Bull's strength is nice too.

I figured out it was a joke soon after one of my earlier posts.

Cheapy wrote:


And the stealth nerf really wasn't so much a stealth nerf so much as a fourth of the reason for PFS :-)

I am not sure what you mean by this.

Also how exactly did/does wild shape/polymorph spells work?

And yes I have never had a druid in my Groups. at least not one that lasted long or used Wild Shape.

polymorph, back in the days of 3.5. replaced your physical stats with those of whatever form you took. which could give you some potentially huge bonuses. kind of like a synthesist does now.

the new polymorph rules, are seperate chains of spells that provide some stat buffs and special abilities, but you still need to invest some points in physical stats to keep them useful. unlike 3.5. where no investment was needed.


Just based on that I think the Pathfinder version is better.

I never really liked the Synthesis... I prefer the basic Summoner class. I might be willing to take Master Summoner if i was part of a really small party (2 or 3 PCs).

Andoran

I have seen clerics specializing in one of three areas: healing, combat or spells. A cleric, in my experience, can be one of the more powerful characters in the game. As has been pointed out, a cleric gets a capstone ability - a twentieth level of cleric!
Even wizards have limits on their choice of spells (spellbooks, opposition schools). Clerics can choose any cleric spell.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Just based on that I think the Pathfinder version is better.

It very much is better, and it isn't just about the stats being bonus based rather than replacing your own.

Here are the other things that changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder in the Polymorph spell:
-Level raised from 4 to 5
-Material component changed from always a small cocoon to a piece of the creature being turned into (harder to be anything you want to)
-Saving throw of Will (harmless) instead of No
-Spell resistance of Yes (harmless) instead of No

-The biggest one: you used to gain all the extraordinary attacks of the creature, but now their is a specific list based on the level of spell actually being used.

3.5 you could be 6th level, cast polymorph, and be a tiger with grab, pounce, and rake.

Pathinfder, a 6th level polymorh to tiger is impossible. you can pick a smaller cat, but you won't get grab, rake, or pounce... and you can't get all three at once until you can cast beast shape III.


AaronOfBarbaria:

It is not hard to get the material component of what you are turning into. It has no associated cost so is assumed to be part of your spell component pouch.

Having a save of Will (harmless) and SR of Yes (harmless) mean about the same thing as No. Since it is a personal spell, you will autofail your own save. Since it is cast by you on yourself it automatically bypasses any SR you may have.

Regarding polymorph into tiger you are somewhat incorrect. A Lion Shaman (Druid) can turn into a Dire Tiger at level 6 as per Beast Shape III so it is not 'impossible'.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

AaronOfBarbaria:

It is not hard to get the material component of what you are turning into. It has no associated cost so is assumed to be part of your spell component pouch.

Not every GM lets a player have infinite non-cost listed spell components for the cost of one 5 gp spell component pouch or a feat.

Sure, the RAW support that idea - but saying that 5 gp gets you a pouch will all the components ever needed for your character even when he has no idea what spells he is eventually going to know is immersion breaking for many. Not to mention that if Eschew Materials is effectively "you have a spell component pouch that the GM can't take away," that is a serious waste of space in the feat section.

Gauss wrote:


Having a save of Will (harmless) and SR of Yes (harmless) mean about the same thing as No. Since it is a personal spell, you will autofail your own save. Since it is cast by you on yourself it automatically bypasses any SR you may have.

Polymorph is a touch range spell, despite the three spells it mimics the effects of being personal spells.

Gauss wrote:


Regarding polymorph into tiger you are somewhat incorrect. A Lion Shaman (Druid) can turn into a Dire Tiger at level 6 as per Beast Shape III so it is not 'impossible'.

- Gauss

Fair point on the class that is meant to best at turning into animals getting an archetype that proves me wrong. Still, one type of druid getting what any wizard used to be able to get (and with less attribute boosts to boot) is a big change.


The Druid(Lion Shaman) is a specific class feature using the spell as a basis. Not the spell itself. plus the Lion Shaman is restricted in te way they transform.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Jt Squish wrote:
Even wizards get a small bump in their specialized school ability, why doesn't the cleric?

That's an excellent question, and one I've asked Jason before.

Basically, it's a combination of oversight and the fact that clerics already take up the most room of any class in that chapter of the book; adding a capstone for each domain would have extended the cleric section (and the overall book length) by several pages.

Adding a more generic capstone that's shared by all clerics though... that would have only added a few lines of text, especially if it were something simple, like:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).


James Jacobs wrote:
Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

So, hey, I'm gonna use this from now on whenever I play a Cleric. kthx

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Both very nice and extremely fitting. I always thought it was extremely annoying that Druids, Monks, and even Wizards/Sorceres have an option to "ascend", and Clerics get no RP anything at all. No Sainthood status, nothing.


Beckett wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Both very nice and extremely fitting. I always thought it was extremely annoying that Druids, Monks, and even Wizards/Sorceres have an option to "ascend", and Clerics get no RP anything at all. No Sainthood status, nothing.

It's better than having to multi-class to get something special at 20th level.


AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Not to mention that if Eschew Materials is effectively "you have a spell component pouch that the GM can't take away," that is a serious waste of space in the feat section.

To be fair, eschew materials also allow you to cast spells while polymorphed (which is very relevant in this thread) and while grappled. Also, some components might take a separate action to prepare, which eschew lets you ignore (this is GM fiat territory, but explicitly mentioned in the rules), and those too large to fit in a pouch.

But yes, it's not exactly the best feat in the book. It'd be a very good trait though.


The problem with having it as a trait is it wouldn't be available to everyone. After all not every GM uses Traits.


My bad, I was talking about the polymorph spells such as Beast Shape III not the Polymorph spell itself. I see where you are going now.

I still stand by my statement about spell component pouches and the Lion Shaman.

- Gauss


Azaelas: My point regarding the Lion Shaman is that it is not 'impossible'. That was all. I do agree that polymorph spells have been nerfed and I believe, rightly so.

- Gauss


yeah, i meant more as how useful I see the ability granted by the feat. i think it's about as useful as the feats widen spell, run and other marginally useful circumstantial feats.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Beckett wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Both very nice and extremely fitting. I always thought it was extremely annoying that Druids, Monks, and even Wizards/Sorceres have an option to "ascend", and Clerics get no RP anything at all. No Sainthood status, nothing.

Yeah. IN fact, my first stab at writing up the "Apotheosis" ability called it "Sainthood." Changed it so that it's obvious that it's not an alignment-based thing.


Eschew Materials is surprisingly handy... Especially on a Sorcerer who gets it for free.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Eschew Materials is surprisingly handy... Especially on a Sorcerer who gets it for free.

Or on a naga, who doesn't have hands at all! :-P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

CoDzilla is a term from the 3.5 Character Optimization boards by Radical Taoist! (actually responded when I asked for help)

It has since become an internet meme and standard descriptive term. Basically, it points out that you don't need splatbooks and PrC's and things to optimize...the core rules for the cleric and druid and the spells and abilities get do it all for you.

Bah, it's own wikipedia entry doesn't have the source. How unprofessional, especially for us gamers!

By Radical Taoist: Context is: A gamer is complaining about a DM who won't allow Psionics in 3.5E, because he believes it is unbalanced.

Quote:

Haunted, the good answers (DMing your own game, ditching this fool for some sensible DMs in college) have been given. You wish to win an argument with a DM, however (try actually facing 3 groups of 4 goblins each in a day at level 1, with time to cast a CLW or two in between, and see if he still thinks you can't have more than 1 encounter a day at low levels) and for that you have chosen the correct tactic.

It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

James Jacobs wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Eschew Materials is surprisingly handy... Especially on a Sorcerer who gets it for free.
Or on a naga, who doesn't have hands at all! :-P

Need a duration on the DR gained from that apothoseis ability.

==Aelryinth


James Jacobs wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Eschew Materials is surprisingly handy... Especially on a Sorcerer who gets it for free.
Or on a naga, who doesn't have hands at all! :-P

Those too... Though I never liked the D&D/Pathfinder depiction of the Naga.

Every depiction I have always found is the upper body of a human and he lower body of a Snake. Basically like a Yuan-Ti.

Which reminds me I need to try and finish my "Naga" Race...

On-Topic: Clerics at least have an easier time to be well built unlike a Monk.

@Aelryinth: What do you mean Duration?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Okay, how long do you gain the DR for? 1 round? An hour? A round per spell level?

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Okay, how long do you gain the DR for? 1 round? An hour? A round per spell level?

==Aelryinth

Actually, what I think it is saying is that you just have the DR permanently. The DR is disassociated from the spellcasting. Which, with a DR 5/Alighnment, is fine by me.


James Jacobs wrote:
Jt Squish wrote:
Even wizards get a small bump in their specialized school ability, why doesn't the cleric?

That's an excellent question, and one I've asked Jason before.

Basically, it's a combination of oversight and the fact that clerics already take up the most room of any class in that chapter of the book; adding a capstone for each domain would have extended the cleric section (and the overall book length) by several pages.

Adding a more generic capstone that's shared by all clerics though... that would have only added a few lines of text, especially if it were something simple, like:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Any chance at seeing this in the next printing? Or too big of a change?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I meant what spells are typically used...

The Druid used Wildshape abuse. Wildshape in 3.5 subbed animal stats for yours. Thus, you could tank a Druid's physical stats (dex and Str) and then become a 30 Str polar bear, no worries, or an elemental with a 36. All day.

Then you greater magic fang, barkskin (hour/level buffs), and use wildclasped armor to wear dragonhide plate which you can use without penalty, still cast in, and get full benefit of even if you aren't prof in heavy armor.

Cast Bite of the Werebear for a +16 Str bonus, and go to town. Maybe after becoming colossal size something or other. With pounce and rake.

All this, while using Natural Spell to cast while wildshaped without penalty. basically, you are never human once you can stay in wildshape all day. If you have to become humanoidish, you become a dire or legendary ape.
---

For clerics:

Divine Favor, level 1 spell, 1 hour/level, +1 th/dmg every 3 levels, max +6.

Divine Shield, +1 deflection bonus/3 levels, max +5, hour/level. Need no ring/prot, better then any Ring someone of the same level had. Saves 50k gp.

Greater magic Vestment: +1 Enhance to AC/3 levels, max +5, hour/level. Don't need to upgrade enhancement bonus to armor, add +9 of 'other abilities', for +14 armor. Have better armor/shield bonus then anyone else in the party of the same level.

greater Magic weapon: Ditto as Vestment. You have a better weapon then anyone of the same level for enhancement, it can be ANY weapon, it maxes at +14 OR it saves you 56k gp.

Divine Might: Get a Fighter's BAB, and a +6 bonus to str. Persist it all day.

Divine Power: Get Enlarged. get a size bonus to Str, Damage reduction, reach. Persist it all day.

Feats: Divine Metamagic (persistent spell): Use turn attempts to power metamagic. Breaks the metacap (i.e. you can Persist level 4 spells at 7th if you have 6 turn attempts).

Persistent Spell: Your spells last 24 hours. +6 Spell Level adjustment.

Extra turning: Gain 4 more turn attempts. If you had different turnings (example, Greater Turning, elemental turning, etc), you gained 4 of EACH TYPE. And all could be used to fuel Divine MM.

Extend Spell: Free if you picked the Planning Domain. All those hour/level buffs spells above now last more then a day if you are over 12th level.

Quicken Spell: +4 SL, cast a second spell in one round.

magic items: Night Sticks gave you +4 turn attempts. It was generally agreed that they didn't stack, so having multiples was useless...but it fueled more MM.

Other Spell abuse: Persistent Mass Lesser vigor. Gave a party fast heal/1 all day. No more needing to heal.

There was another spell that gave the party basically haste all day, and more...favor of the divine? I dunno.

Another gave the party massive resistance bonuses to their saves, far higher then cloaks.

Miracle enabled them to imitate any other spell of 7th level or less. Hello, Bite of the werebear for +16 str, +8 Con, +2 Dex. Hello, Giant-size for Colossal size at level 20. Hello, any awesome wiz/druid spell of level 7 or less.

Shapechange, if you had the right domain. Yeah, you could abuse Shapechange all freaking day.

------
Basically, the cleric buffed up. His buffs lasted all day. Divine Favor meant that he did awesome damage, equal to a fighter. His weapons and armor were better. Divine Might meant he got the same number of attacks, a free Str bonus, and now hit harder then a fighter. Divine Power just stamped on the remains of a fighter's dignity and drove the point home.

If you didn't have Persistent Spell, then you could just use Quicken and stay completely core. If you didn't have Divine Metamagic, you just waited a few levels before you could get Divine Might and Divine Power off in one round instead of two.

Having +14 weapons and armor, no need for a 50k ring or 25k cloak, meant the cleric was always better equipped with more misc and useful gear then any other party member could afford.

and so the Codzilla went.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Odraude wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Okay, how long do you gain the DR for? 1 round? An hour? A round per spell level?

==Aelryinth

Actually, what I think it is saying is that you just have the DR permanently. The DR is disassociated from the spellcasting. Which, with a DR 5/Alighnment, is fine by me.

Ah, k. The format, it looks like it's granted by using the domain spell.

==Aelryinth


The CoDzilla has already been explained.

Shadow Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
Okay, how long do you gain the DR for? 1 round? An hour? A round per spell level?
Odraude wrote:
Actually, what I think it is saying is that you just have the DR permanently. The DR is disassociated from the spellcasting. Which, with a DR 5/Alighnment, is fine by me.

That was my understanding, too. Honestly, DR 5 at 20th level is nothing, so I realy can't see it mattering that much. It just looks nice to have something.

Shadow Lodge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
The CoDzilla has already been explained.

I thought I had summed it up really well by "the good old days".

:)

Truthfully, though it actually means a few different things.


The tactics he described had been summed up before.

And DR 5/- is available to a Fighter at Level 19.

The Cleric could even be fine getting DR 10/(Alignment Type).

Heavens know they need and deserve something shiny.


Odraude wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Jt Squish wrote:
Even wizards get a small bump in their specialized school ability, why doesn't the cleric?

That's an excellent question, and one I've asked Jason before.

Basically, it's a combination of oversight and the fact that clerics already take up the most room of any class in that chapter of the book; adding a capstone for each domain would have extended the cleric section (and the overall book length) by several pages.

Adding a more generic capstone that's shared by all clerics though... that would have only added a few lines of text, especially if it were something simple, like:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Any chance at seeing this in the next printing? Or too big of a change?

Seems like more of a Pathfinder 2.0 change then something that can (or should) be errata'd in.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aelryinth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Eschew Materials is surprisingly handy... Especially on a Sorcerer who gets it for free.
Or on a naga, who doesn't have hands at all! :-P

Need a duration on the DR gained from that apothoseis ability.

==Aelryinth

Permanent.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aelryinth wrote:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Okay, how long do you gain the DR for? 1 round? An hour? A round per spell level?

==Aelryinth

Oh... I get where the confusion happens.

You get the healing when you cast the spell. You get the DR forever once you gain Apotheosis.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Odraude wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Jt Squish wrote:
Even wizards get a small bump in their specialized school ability, why doesn't the cleric?

That's an excellent question, and one I've asked Jason before.

Basically, it's a combination of oversight and the fact that clerics already take up the most room of any class in that chapter of the book; adding a capstone for each domain would have extended the cleric section (and the overall book length) by several pages.

Adding a more generic capstone that's shared by all clerics though... that would have only added a few lines of text, especially if it were something simple, like:

Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Any chance at seeing this in the next printing? Or too big of a change?

That'd be an example of a new edition type change, not a core rulebook change.

The game works fine with no cleric capstone. It's not a dealbreaker—it doesn't break the game. As such, it isn't needed errata, or even an error in the first place.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Beckett wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Okay, how long do you gain the DR for? 1 round? An hour? A round per spell level?
Odraude wrote:
Actually, what I think it is saying is that you just have the DR permanently. The DR is disassociated from the spellcasting. Which, with a DR 5/Alighnment, is fine by me.
That was my understanding, too. Honestly, DR 5 at 20th level is nothing, so I realy can't see it mattering that much. It just looks nice to have something.

I could certainly see upping the DR to 10. But even at 5, that's hardly "nothing." That's 5 fewer points from a lot of attacks, and that adds up fast, especially since monsters are generally less likely to have the right method to penetrate DR than players are in the first place.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Odraude wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Apotheosis(Su): Your deity has chosen you as one of the most important representatives of the faith in the world. You may use your domain spells as spell-like abilities—levels 1–4 at will, levels 5–7 3/day, and levels 8–9 1/day, in addition to preparing these spells as regular domain spells. Every time you cast a spell, you or a single ally within 30 feet heals damage equal to twice the spell level being cast. You also gain damage reduction 5 that can be bypassed by one alignment in opposition to your deity's alignment (your choice; neutral deities allow a choice from all four other alignments).

Any chance at seeing this in the next printing? Or too big of a change?

Seems like more of a Pathfinder 2.0 change then something that can (or should) be errata'd in.

I dunno, I think it could be Errata'd in.

Remember, the two reasons James Jacobs gives for not including a capstone for the Cleric was part and oversight (ie. an error) and partly because the Cleric section of the book was way too big as is, and would have been bigger had they included a capstone for each Domain. If they added in a capstone for the whole class, that would have been fine.

Since it's exclusion was partly an oversight, I'd totally see it as reasonable for them to say "hey guys, we goofed here, add this to the Cleric section of their class features".


There is a problem with turning Domain spells into spell-like abilities. Some of those have very expensive material components. Spell-like abilities do not require material components. For example, the Community Domain has Miracle at domain spell level 9.

- Gauss

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Gauss wrote:

There is a problem with turning Domain spells into spell-like abilities. Some of those have very expensive material components. Spell-like abilities do not require material components. For example, the Community Domain has Miracle at domain spell level 9.

- Gauss

I'd certainly look through the domain lists before I'd let such a power get into print, of course... I'd probably leave the 9th level spells off the spell-like ability train in the end, but don't really have a problem with 20th level clerics avoiding expensive material component costs as long as doing so doesn't break the game world (like free miracles would).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Harrison wrote:

I dunno, I think it could be Errata'd in.

Remember, the two reasons James Jacobs gives for not including a capstone for the Cleric was part and oversight (ie. an error) and partly because the Cleric section of the book was way too big as is, and would have been bigger had they included a capstone for each Domain. If they added in a capstone for the whole class, that would have been fine.

Since it's exclusion was partly an oversight, I'd totally see it as reasonable for them to say "hey guys, we goofed here, add this to the Cleric section of their class features".

It certainly COULD be slipped into the rules during an errata/reprint... but that doesn't magically make the addition into errata. It's still an addition, and one that (although in a pretty minor way, since there's not nearly as many 20th level PC and NPC clerics running around) would change the way established 20th level clerics impact the world and game play. In ways that might cause some complicated ret-conning. It's also full-on power creep, and we try to avoid that. And it's also just not our philosophy to encourage incremental design changes and additions to the core rules, because that increasingly erodes the core rules' stability as a "core," and erodes the ability for players to achieve mastery over the rules.

It's just a little thing, adding that to a cleric, but I could see it being the precedent that opens wide the doors to incremental game design. I don't want that. That's not good for a published product.

I offered it here as an off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion for a house rule that folks could use if they, like me, wished that clerics had a capstone ability. Not as an attempt to generate a viral campaign to change the game's core rules.


I would cap the SLAs at around Spell Level 7.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Gauss wrote:

There is a problem with turning Domain spells into spell-like abilities. Some of those have very expensive material components. Spell-like abilities do not require material components. For example, the Community Domain has Miracle at domain spell level 9.

- Gauss

I'd certainly look through the domain lists before I'd let such a power get into print, of course... I'd probably leave the 9th level spells off the spell-like ability train in the end, but don't really have a problem with 20th level clerics avoiding expensive material component costs as long as doing so doesn't break the game world (like free miracles would).

What about getting an extra domain slot or two per level? That way expensive component bypass wouldn't happen.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Atarlost wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Gauss wrote:

There is a problem with turning Domain spells into spell-like abilities. Some of those have very expensive material components. Spell-like abilities do not require material components. For example, the Community Domain has Miracle at domain spell level 9.

- Gauss

I'd certainly look through the domain lists before I'd let such a power get into print, of course... I'd probably leave the 9th level spells off the spell-like ability train in the end, but don't really have a problem with 20th level clerics avoiding expensive material component costs as long as doing so doesn't break the game world (like free miracles would).
What about getting an extra domain slot or two per level? That way expensive component bypass wouldn't happen.

Maybe allowing you to prepare BOTH of your domain spells rather than choosing one over the other?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

Wizards get one (based on their school), Druids get one (at-will wildshape), and witches get a "grand hex" at 18th and twenty, so their capstone is split across 2 levels.

Clerics don't really get anything :)

Druid's ability to Wild Shape at will is the progression of a level 6 ability, not a "Capstone" as defined in the context of the post, which I take to understand reading something specific that says "Ability(xx): At level 20, a druid..."


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Maybe just have it to where they add their Domain Spells entirely to their Spell List to be prepared like a normal Cleric Spell and gain a Second Domain Spell Slot for each level.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Wizards get one (based on their school), Druids get one (at-will wildshape), and witches get a "grand hex" at 18th and twenty, so their capstone is split across 2 levels.

Clerics don't really get anything :)

Druid's ability to Wild Shape at will is the progression of a level 6 ability, not a "Capstone" as defined in the context of the post, which I take to understand reading something specific that says "Ability(xx): At level 20, a druid..."

actually, it is a level 4 ability. and the final stage of the progression (at will), though seen as the progression of a low level ability, can be seen as the capstone for that particular ability. a major iconic ability that makes a druid identifiable as a druid, and the pinnacle of such an ability can be seen as a capstone of sorts.

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