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Are Mythic Ability Scores Necessary?


Player Feedback


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I'm just wondering what people think about the +2 ability score bonus you get every two mythic tiers. I haven't had a chance to playtest this yet, but it seems like they are really unnecessray.

The whole concept of mythic seems to be "better, but not because of higher numbers," and I really think with all the other abilities mythic characters can have, +10 to their highest ability score isn't really needed to make them special.

It also seems to benefit characters that really only benefit from a single stat. Wizards are going to have a huge bonus to the save DCs of their spells, in addition to the mythic path abilities that improve them, while a class like a fighter will end up with the exact same saves as before, since he'll probably be putting all the bonuses to strength.

Since constitution isn't really the major score of any class (excepting orc witches), damage output will likely increase far more heavily than hp increases, since characters that deal damage with weapons will benefit the most from putting every single point into strength or dex. And if you're not a dex user yourself, you can probably forget about having a halfway decent AC.

I'll have to playtest this to see if my suspicions are correct, of course. In the meantime, here is what I think two solutions might be (assuming that this is a problem, which it may not end up being):

1. Scrap the bonuses entirely

2. Force the character to pick a different ability score each time.

(For thematic reasons, you can still have a ridiculously strong character if you take the path ability that gives +20 to all strength checks and skills, so I don't think these are necessary from any thematic point of view, either.)

So what are everyone's thoughts on improving your ability scores with mythic tiers?

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I do agree with you. A lot of the mythic feats or path ability can make you quite amazing things, and to have a bonus to dmg or to your spell DC every two tiers is really powerful.

It does come with a bunch of problem like Mythic powers number of uses, which is being discussed on several topic. Because this increase of ability scores is really a huge benefit to all of those who focus on a single ability...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

any DM i would play with would be as stingy as possible with handing out tiers...those +2 bonuses wouldn't exactly be rolling in


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that they are needed.


i totally think they are needed, especially to reach demigod powerlevels and compete with mythic monsters...

minmaxers are just salivating over instantly crafting a character with an easy +10 to their key mod


I think they are needed. Otherwise, the spell DCs of a mythic spellcaster and the to-hit of a mythic martial character won't properly scale with their CR.


You don't get any bonuses based on HD (feats, hitpoint, BAB, saves, attribute increase) whenever you increase your Mythic rating. So.. it doesn't really seem that bad.


I concur as well. Remember that, while a mythic character is getting more hit points, his BAB, saves, and caster level are not increasing with tier. If you take out the ability score advancement, then you have to recalculate the level equivalence of each mythic tier.


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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Mythic's gotta be mythic. Seems fine to me.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just to clarify my thoughts. It is nice and I'm in the "We've got to keep it" clan, but maybe with a restriction such as: You can't select the same ability score every single time.


Personally, I think a better option for evening out the ability score gains is that maybe at certain tiers characters could gain a bonus to *all* ability scores.

This would have the benefit of preventing saving throw calculations from getting out of wack with the save DCs. You know that everyone is going to be focusing on their attack abilities scores and not their defense ability scores otherwise.


Spellcasters would be especially prone to focus on a single ability score. Non-spellcasters would probably pick two out of the three physical ability scores and improve them after taking that Dual Focus feat.


Matrix Dragon wrote:

Personally, I think a better option for evening out the ability score gains is that maybe at certain tiers characters could gain a bonus to *all* ability scores.

This would have the benefit of preventing saving throw calculations from getting out of wack with the save DCs. You know that everyone is going to be focusing on their attack abilities scores and not their defense ability scores otherwise.

I like this. To be honest, I really liked the way 4E gave out ability score bonuses.

At 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28, you were given +1 to two ability scores.
At 11 and 21, you are given +1 to ALL ability scores.

If Mythic is used in replacing advancement between 1-20 (like it sounds like lots of people are going to be) then attack and saves will fall behind quickly.

Mythic DOES increase save DCs of spells, but doesn't increase saves AGAINST the spells. Let the Casters > everything else arguements continue!


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like it. My players will love it. And it feels mythic.

Think of Hercules man! ;)

Grand Lodge

A +5 over 10 levels to hit is what the epic rules gave and this seems to do that in a different way. I am looking at this from the 30th level character point of view. 20th/10mythic. At "30th" you would have fallem way behing without those stat boosts and never had a cr 35 fail a save besides a nat 1.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Right. For my uses it's fine, since I'll be using it as an epic progression.

Now, a level 1/tier 10 characters? I still think it's okay - after all, the whole point of mythic tiers is that they're something extraordinary. If they're being handed out like levels, that makes them into something else entirely.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

There are some issues, particularly concerning DCs and scaling, often this actually replaced other scaling effects:

Some examples:

Witch 10/Archmage6: The hex DC doesn't increase, increasing intelligence can offset penalties somewhat.
Wizard 10/Archmage6:Access to new spell levels and the intelligence increase is offset by the ability to increase your intelligence.

Strength based melee characer-> increased strength alone can't really offset the loss of base attack bonus and increased power attack damage, but powers like precision from the champion path help.

The list goes on, I guess this should work. The only troublesome areas are classes and abilities that benefit more strongly from stat increases, but those are already pretty good. If this is really critical, you could always replace the ability increases by other sets of improvements like: +1 to attack rolls, +1 to CL....


It seems to me that this fits in perfectly with current pathfinder, which is that wizards get to benefit the most and remain gods, and tough break for every other class


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mechalibur wrote:

I'm just wondering what people think about the +2 ability score bonus you get every two mythic tiers. I haven't had a chance to playtest this yet, but it seems like they are really unnecessray.

I agree. It adds to the complexity of the high-level game, in terms of creating npcs and possibly monsters. Also, the bonus is not significant (+10 at MT10?) compared with 3.0 epics, so it just "fiddling" with the score. Thus should be scrapped IMO.

Same with the initiative bonus.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mechalibur wrote:

I'm just wondering what people think about the +2 ability score bonus you get every two mythic tiers. I haven't had a chance to playtest this yet, but it seems like they are really unnecessray.

The whole concept of mythic seems to be "better, but not because of higher numbers," and I really think with all the other abilities mythic characters can have, +10 to their highest ability score isn't really needed to make them special.

It also seems to benefit characters that really only benefit from a single stat. Wizards are going to have a huge bonus to the save DCs of their spells, in addition to the mythic path abilities that improve them, while a class like a fighter will end up with the exact same saves as before, since he'll probably be putting all the bonuses to strength.

Since constitution isn't really the major score of any class (excepting orc witches), damage output will likely increase far more heavily than hp increases, since characters that deal damage with weapons will benefit the most from putting every single point into strength or dex. And if you're not a dex user yourself, you can probably forget about having a halfway decent AC.

I'll have to playtest this to see if my suspicions are correct, of course. In the meantime, here is what I think two solutions might be (assuming that this is a problem, which it may not end up being):

1. Scrap the bonuses entirely

2. Force the character to pick a different ability score each time.

(For thematic reasons, you can still have a ridiculously strong character if you take the path ability that gives +20 to all strength checks and skills, so I don't think these are necessary from any thematic point of view, either.)

So what are everyone's thoughts on improving your ability scores with mythic tiers?

Completely agree. Too much stat bloat in the game as is. Given all the other non-math mythic stuff, this seems like big step backwards.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Starsunder wrote:

I like it. My players will love it. And it feels mythic.

Think of Hercules man! ;)

Now think Heracles with a ton of PF stat-boosters on top of that... Overkill even for a demigod.


They put it in place so that characters without progression of base mechanics would have a reasonable chance of dealing with cr's that would be way outside their league otherwise. I feel as though a save booster of some sort or other is a requirement at this point though.


The sad fact is, that "better without bigger numbers" doesn't really work in the d20 system. If characters are expected to compete with monster CRs of level + tier, they need to be able to hit those monsters' ACs, save DCs, and so forth. So yes, some increase to ability scores are necessary.

That said, it probably would not be a bad idea to say that you can't use them to raise the same stat twice in a row. +6 Strength / +4 Constitution is less worrisome than +10 Strength, for example.


I wonder if it would be better to increase ability scores broadly, or even across the board (possibly to a lesser degree than +10 at MT 10).

Or possibly something like +2, +2/2, +2/2/2, until when you get tier 10 you add to five ability scores. That might at least prevent the system from favoring SAD and offense-over-defense quite so much as it does now.

Yeah, it is necessary to be able to have your offense (whether attack bonus or saving throw DC) within striking distance when you have a bunch of tiers, so you need something to raise those numbers. Defenses should be able to rise too, though - saves being probably the most critical thing.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've long held that any extension of the d20 system beyond 20 levels (and specifically beyond the existing ability score increases) should be universal. Make it +1 to all ability scores every two tiers or something.


I think it would be better if you gained a mythic bonus to 1/2 saves, 1/2 DCs, CL, AC and attacks equal to your Mythic Tier so every ones benefits equally and are still capable of hitting defending from and saving against said opponents.

Yawar

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:
I've long held that any extension of the d20 system beyond 20 levels (and specifically beyond the existing ability score increases) should be universal. Make it +1 to all ability scores every two tiers or something.

I agree that increases to all would be more interesting and provide better balance. Maybe a good compromise would that at every even level you would select a different attribute to increase by +2 and previously selected attributes increase by +1. So the bonus would go: +2 at tier 2, +3/+2, +4/+3/+2, +5/+4/+3/+2, and finally +6/+5/+4/+3/+2 at tier 10. This would still allow you to select an area of relative strength, is more fair for MAD classes, and results in with less lopsided builds. However, I'm not sure if only having the +6 in your primary attribute is sufficient in terms of CR balance.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:
I've long held that any extension of the d20 system beyond 20 levels (and specifically beyond the existing ability score increases) should be universal. Make it +1 to all ability scores every two tiers or something.

Exactly. Everyone b#%@+es about the 3e ELH, but that's what it did and it works. If you want to keep a party together, they have to stay reasonably in parity with each other, and the 3e ELH strategy of leveling the playing field after level 20 did a good job of that.

The Core Rulebook post-20 suggestion of "just keep doing what you're doing" would increasingly break down with higher levels.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:
I agree that increases to all would be more interesting and provide better balance. Maybe a good compromise would that at every even level you would select a different attribute to increase by +2 and previously selected attributes increase by +1. So the bonus would go: +2 at tier 2, +3/+2, +4/+3/+2, +5/+4/+3/+2, and finally +6/+5/+4/+3/+2 at tier 10. This would still allow you to select an area of relative strength, is more fair for MAD classes, and results in with less lopsided builds. However, I'm not sure if only having the +6 in your primary attribute is sufficient in terms of CR balance.

In case +6 is not sufficient, i think CR scaling with MT should be adjusted. CR should be adjusted based on character strenght, not vice-versa. There are a lot of other ways to make a character Mythic without handing out tons of single ability scores increments who benefits most focused classes.

Peter Stewart wrote:
I've long held that any extension of the d20 system beyond 20 levels (and specifically beyond the existing ability score increases) should be universal. Make it +1 to all ability scores every two tiers or something.

This option is even better in my opinion, because makes MT characters stronger all around (ability score wise) than normal characters, and that's what they should be. The strong in what they DO is defined by their Mythic Path, the strong in what they ARE is defined by the base mythical abilities and ability scores.

A wizard with MT should be physically stronger than a wizard without, and why not, can become even stronger than other less mentally focused class, because that what he his: Mythic.


I'm not certain a +5 to your ability scores in general would keep up with CR. I honestly haven't checked the numbers though, and it would certainly help the classes who cant make a will save nine times out of ten.


Trogdar wrote:
I'm not certain a +5 to your ability scores in general would keep up with CR. I honestly haven't checked the numbers though, and it would certainly help the classes who cant make a will save nine times out of ten.

All I know is that Mythic characters at least need their hit points per tier increased. Right now it isn't enough to keep up with enemy damage output... especially past CR 20.

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