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Unclear about wealth per level and mythic tiers


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I can't seem to find anything stating whether a PC's wealth by level should factor in his mythic tiers. Does a 10th level PC with 10 mythic tiers have the equipment of a 10th level PC or a 20th level PC?

If its 20th level PC, then what do we use for a 20th level PC with any mythic tiers? Just cap them at 20th levels value?

Hopefully I didn't miss a very obvious answer (wouldn't be the first or the last)!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Forgottenprince wrote:

I can't seem to find anything stating whether a PC's wealth by level should factor in his mythic tiers. Does a 10th level PC with 10 mythic tiers have the equipment of a 10th level PC or a 20th level PC?

If its 20th level PC, then what do we use for a 20th level PC with any mythic tiers? Just cap them at 20th levels value?

Hopefully I didn't miss a very obvious answer (wouldn't be the first or the last)!

I could be wrong, but I believe you would use the total for WBL. In other words, a Fighter 10/Champion 5, should use WBL for a 15th level PC.

I thought I saw that in another thread, but can't locate it.

Andoran

During the playtest I will be running I am going to add half the mythic tier rounded down to determine WBL. With the 10/5 example your wealth would go from 62,000 at 10th to 240,000 at 15th, that just seems broken to me.


A while ago I asked one of the devs if a level 20 tier 10 character should have more wealth than a standard level 20 character, and the answer was basically "No, except for maybe an artifact or two".

So, you should only use the base levels of the character to calculate expected WBL, but I expect that your players could go a bit above it simply because they may be fighting better equipped foes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:

A while ago I asked one of the devs if a level 20 tier 10 character should have more wealth than a standard level 20 character, and the answer was basically "No, except for maybe an artifact or two".

So, you should only use the base levels of the character to calculate expected WBL, but I expect that your players could go a bit above it simply because they may be fighting better equipped foes.

If you're playing mythic you should pretty much walk away from WBL.

Mythic treasures are like artifacts, you don't buy them at Magic-Mart, you get them as story development. And DM's have to realize that the WBL table is nothing more than a developing crutch for novice gamemasters. At some point, you need to chuck the training wheels, and learn that judging your party's equipment is more than just adding up it's gold piece value. And you really really shouldn't be trucking out the mythic stuff as a novice GM. Get mastery of the regular game before you take it out to the extremes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd say Weath By Level doesn't change. It's weatlth by level not Wealth by Tier. So the tier of Mythic you have has no impact on wealth. Why should it?


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
voska66 wrote:
I'd say Weath By Level doesn't change. It's weatlth by level not Wealth by Tier. So the tier of Mythic you have has no impact on wealth. Why should it?

Because players, unless everything they fight is mythic, defeat higher level foes so they get better equipment.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

A while ago I asked one of the devs if a level 20 tier 10 character should have more wealth than a standard level 20 character, and the answer was basically "No, except for maybe an artifact or two".

So, you should only use the base levels of the character to calculate expected WBL, but I expect that your players could go a bit above it simply because they may be fighting better equipped foes.

If you're playing mythic you should pretty much walk away from WBL.

Mythic treasures are like artifacts, you don't buy them at Magic-Mart, you get them as story development. And DM's have to realize that the WBL table is nothing more than a developing crutch for novice gamemasters. At some point, you need to chuck the training wheels, and learn that judging your party's equipment is more than just adding up it's gold piece value. And you really really shouldn't be trucking out the mythic stuff as a novice GM. Get mastery of the regular game before you take it out to the extremes.

Wow. That was pretty condescending and counter productive to what these boards are all about.

As for the OPs question, I am only about 1/2 way through the .pdf, but if you are running a test campaign that starts at different levels and such, I would say stick with the base level and then add a little bit of flavor for the mythic tiers. As in the before mentioned minor or even major artifacts. A 10th level fighter/5 tier champion is still a 10th level fighter, but has had a little more opportunity to run into more powerful events. I don't see where they are suppose to still go toe to toe with a lvl 15 character.

So let them kit themselves out at their character class and then you can add to them based on their tiers.

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I must admit some of the above posts were more helpful than others.... For the record I've been DMing for 12+ years now and have often taken 3.x games to 30th+ levels. So if you feel I'm still on "training wheels"...

I think the most helpful comment has been the 10th level/5th tier character is not supposed to be an equal to a 15th level character. I'd love it if JB confirmed Matrix's quote, but I suspect he's correct.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
voska66 wrote:
I'd say Weath By Level doesn't change. It's weatlth by level not Wealth by Tier. So the tier of Mythic you have has no impact on wealth. Why should it?
Because players, unless everything they fight is mythic, defeat higher level foes so they get better equipment.

This the same issue with XP. The solution there is to treat the ecounters as CR - Epic Tier for XP and Wealth per encounter.

For example a APL 3 party with 3 mythic tiers takes on CR 9 ecnounter but treats it as CR 6 encount. So 2400 XP and 1350 GP Standard. This would be exactly what APL 3 party with mythic tiers would get.

The alternative is you accept that leveling will occur much faster and with that WBL should still remain close to the same. Sure more treasure is obtain but you level up fast enough to keep that appropriate.


Are you starting a new campaign, or adding a new player to an existing campaign? If you are starting a new campaign, I would give new players wealth based on their actual character level. If you are introducing a new player to an existing campaign, I would give them equipment that is either on a par with or very slightly below whatever the existing characters have.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Hey there Folks,

Currently, because you face higher level challenges, you get the rewards for that level, meaning that your average wealth by level guidelines are going to be a bit of a split between your current level and your level plus your mythic tier.

I realize that this is not a perfect solution, and I am tinkering with a number of different options to make this work, but you will probably not see it for a while yet.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
voska66 wrote:
I'd say Weath By Level doesn't change. It's weatlth by level not Wealth by Tier. So the tier of Mythic you have has no impact on wealth. Why should it?
Because players, unless everything they fight is mythic, defeat higher level foes so they get better equipment.

Only if the GM gives them higher amounts of treasure. I find this issue much the same XP. Just award XP and Treasure as the CR - Mythic Tier.

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there Folks,

Currently, because you face higher level challenges, you get the rewards for that level, meaning that your average wealth by level guidelines are going to be a bit of a split between your current level and your level plus your mythic tier.

I realize that this is not a perfect solution, and I am tinkering with a number of different options to make this work, but you will probably not see it for a while yet.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Thats just fine Jason, thanks for responding. When you ponder the issue, please keep the 20th level mythic 1-10playtest scenarios in mind too.

As and aside, I was/am a huge fan of 3.x epic, but I'm really starting to love what I'm seeing here.

Keep going!

Osirion Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It looks to me that extra wealth by tier isn't necessary. There are really powerful abilities and the ability to replenish mythic power. One thing I would like to see is graduating weapons, as with the Ancestral Relic feat. I haven't seen that yet and I think it plays well into mythic themes. Without having to create a system for how much wbl is right for differing mythic tiers and different levels.

I'll add this. Comments here should be geared at helping advance the product or critique where it's weak. If the system is good, it's god for all manner of players and GMs, not for our ideas about what makes a good game. Comments about training wheels or having to earn more powerful items through rp and plot and such aren't useful.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Steven T. Helt wrote:
It looks to me that extra wealth by tier isn't necessary. There are really powerful abilities and the ability to replenish mythic power. One thing I would like to see is graduating weapons, as with the Ancestral Relic feat. I haven't seen that yet and I think it plays well into mythic themes. Without having to create a system for how much wbl is right for differing mythic tiers and different levels.

In my experience, the WBL tables for character level are more than sufficient. In fact, when we played last night, the players were astonished at what actual WBL would buy them as opposed to what their characters our active campaign have.

To be clear, I tend to run extremely low wealth games in general, as I find that more enjoyable than PCs with large amounts of magic. But that's just personal preference. I'd guess that if your table uses standard WBL, then you'd want to step it up a notch for mythic games.

TL;DR Do what works for your table. Very low WBL works at my games, but your mileage may vary.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have already toyed around with hero lab and some characters really need it, others are awesome without your stat items. It's certainly complicated especially once DR comes into play.

That said, if you don't follow the guidelines to and give characters more than half their level in mystic tiers, it does warp the system.


This could get murky at very high levels ... for example a regular 20th level character should have LESS material wealth than a 20th level/10 mythic Tier character ...


level 5 party fights a monster at cr5, gets cr5 treasure. Level 5 tier 5 party fights a cr5/tier5 monster and gets the same fair fight, but gets more treasure for it being equivalent cr 10. The next fight is much easier comparatively.
seems problematic, not sure how to reconcile.


Not the same fair fight...a level 5 tier 5 party can take a CR 10 encounter and that would be an "easy" encounter. They should get CR 10 wealth.

A level 5 party taking a level 5 tier 5 monster would probably get slaughtered.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Ven wrote:

level 5 party fights a monster at cr5, gets cr5 treasure. Level 5 tier 5 party fights a cr5/tier5 monster and gets the same fair fight, but gets more treasure for it being equivalent cr 10. The next fight is much easier comparatively.

seems problematic, not sure how to reconcile.

When an APL 5 party fights a CR 5 monster, they get CR 5 treasure and everything works fine. When an APL 10 party fights a CR 10 monster, they get a CR 10 treasure and everything works fine.

The problem is actually the exact opposite of that. An APL 10 party that fights a CR 10 monster should get a CR 10 treasure, because the rules assume they are using 10th-level WBL against the CR 10 monsters they face. The problems start when you have something like a 5th-level/5th-tier party that isn't earning CR 10 treasures for fighting CR 10 monsters; if they only have 5th-level WBL, they start to fall behind the power curve.


Good point Epic Meepo...maybe it's Mythic treasure (i.e. it interacts with Mythic Powers) when the monster has mythic ranks.

Although...another set of treasure type probably isn't the answer. Could lead to some interesting items though.


I'm not sure what the problem is really. A 4 man party of 6th level Tier 3 adventurers is an APL of 9, they should face roughly CR 9-13 threats and get the appropriate treasure. Now those threats could be Mythic CR 9 or normal CR 9, it doesn't really matter as long as it's the right CR.

What you end up seeing is lower level characters with powerful items, but those same characters also have Mythic Tiers to back them up. There is essentially no difference (in theory) between a 9th level party and a 6th level/tier 3 party. Both are APL 9, both face CR 9-13 threats, both get CR 9 treasure.

The only real problem comes when a 6th level tier 3 party faces off against an 11th - 13th level caster with 6th and 7th level spells. I don't think the Mythic Party would fare very well in that case.


Another issue I'm having is the exp explosion. In your example, since 6th level Tier 3 characters are fighting and winnin against CR 10-11 encounters, they are also getting CR 10-11 experience. Even at the slow experience rate, they are going to be levelling up much faster.

In my playtest, the players just faced a half dozen CR 16 mythic Wargs (effective CR 21). That's a total of 409,600 xp. The players are level 12/Tier 6. At the fast rate, they just need 55,000 xp to level. At the medium rate, it is 95,000. Even the slow rate, they need 145,000 xp. Fortunately, they are a 7 person party, but even then at the fast rate, they would have leveled up after one fight. It would take two such fights at the medium rate, and three such fights at the slow rate.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Tels wrote:
I'm not sure what the problem is really.

The problem I've had in my playtest is that mythic tiers can be temporary, and that completely screws with WBL.

Say a level X party fights CR X monsters and gets CR X treasure. Then the party is awarded Y mythic tiers without gaining any new treasure, and has to fight a CR X+Y monster. You've got a level X+Y party with gear fit for a level X party fighting a CR X+Y encounter; the party is Y levels of treasure behind where they should be when facing that encounter. (In my playtest so far, this treasure gap started causing problems once it hit tens of thousands of gp per character behind WBL at 8th-level/4th-tier.)


The XP explosion is slightly addressed, they suggest slow progression.

As for the wealth, Epic Meepo I think you are mistaken, a little.
See, if you fight cr 15 you would want to award cr 15. which is fine when your fighting cr 15, but not cr 10/tier5. average armor class for cr 10 is 24. a APL 10 party considers this an easy fight, but cr 15 is an average AC 30(according to monster creation rules in the bestiary) and the rewards for cr 15 are balanced to give characters the bonuses necessary to target a high AC. But if your CR 15 is because you have 10/5 then your characters are getting the ability to hit a cr15 opponent when the ones they are fighting are no harder to hit than a normal monster of their APL.

IF the party only fights normal non mythic monsters of a cr appropriate to their level+tier then it works fine with extra treasure (and probably should get more so they can handle the extra defences and monster to-hit). IF the party only fights mythic monsters for the extra challenge than it only works with normal treasure for their level.

but the biggest problem is switching between the two in the same campaign.

that was complicated, does anyone still follow me?


I think what you're saying is a 10th/5 tier party is an APL 15th group. If they fight a Mythic CR 15 creature (10/5 as well) then that Mythic creature still has attack, defense saves, abilities etc in line with the 10th level group. For instance, a 10th level fighter vs a CR 10 creature means the fighter should be easily able to hit him once or twice a round. Making them a 10/5 fight doesn't change that as their AC and attack bonuses really haven't changed all that much.

As it was pointed out, the big problem is from temporary Mythic Tiers. In such cases, I would advise not awarding CR appropriate treasure, but non-Mythic APL appropriate treasure. However, at the same time, this will make it difficult for a 10/5 party to go up against a straight CR 15 (non-Mythic) creature as it's attacks, saves, DCs, AC etc will all be 5 CRs higher. This can vary wildly, and could easily be death for a party. However, that means a GM needs to do a little work, apply some common sense, and keep an eye on things in the party, giving them appropriate threats and challenges.

I think Mythic Adventures should be categorized under 'Advanced Play' or even 'Expert Play' because it's not really designed for new GMs or players to tinker around with.

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