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Throw everything in that characteristic


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

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Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a problem in how mythic power is gained.

Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You must choose one ability score as the one most associated with your mythic potential. Once made, this choice can’t be changed. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to your mythic tier plus your mythic ability score’s bonus.

There is already a tendency for a subset of the player community to to privilege one characteristic to the detriment of all others, this mechanic will only reinforce that style of playing.
Most examples from fiction or legend aren't mono dimensional with only a characteristic defining them.
Hercules wasn't simply a strong guy with a initial set of characteristics reading: 20/10/16/7/7/7, his mental capabilities were good, he was capable to think on his feet and find clever solutions in a hurry.
Gandalf isn't a intelligence only wizard, he often use a sword with good results.
I think we can find plenty of examples.

I know that the Pathfinder developers prefer the KISS approach, but it wouldn't be better to get the mythic power from all your characteristics?
something like:
"You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to your mythic tier plus the total of your ability scores modifiers /2?
or another some similar formula?

With the current method class that require multiple characteristics are penalized.

Edit:
the total modifiers/2 part is because it is easier to get +2 items for all 6 stats than a +6 for one, but it can be easily removed an still allow for a more balanced character.


I tend to agree. The mechanics of this game have never favoured hybrids though. I have always felt that ability scores should be required to split between a mental and physical statistic to represent the growth of a hero in more than one faculty, but it just isn't the way the game works.


What about the mythic feat that lets you use two ability scores when calculating your mythic power points?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Generally speaking I agree that focusing on a single ability score can lead to a tendency to focus on that one score. In fact I raised exactly this point once the first details about mythic points came out.

At this moment in time, I'm tempted to proffer the suggestion that it be tier plus the average bonus of one physical and one mental stat, and the feat that currently adds a second ability score allows you to add the average of two other stats (one mental, one physical). Certainly it's still possible to boost one ability through the stratosphere, but doing so would not place the character leagues ahead of more balanced (in terms of ability score selection) characters.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pretty sure I also commented on this when mythic was announced. I'd honestly rather the mechanic be completely divorced from ability scores - especially since they can fluctuate a great deal between campaigns.


Another one that agrees. Focus on one only stat favours some types of characters over others. Maybe break the pool totally from attributes can bea good idea. No idea how, sadly.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alaryth wrote:
Another one that agrees. Focus on one only stat favours some types of characters over others. Maybe break the pool totally from attributes can bea good idea. No idea how, sadly.

Still doesn't solve the compounding problem of higher attributes = stronger in every way and more mythic power. I'm sure most DMs around here are well aware of high much even a 5 point swing in a point buy can affect the difficulty of an adventure path. Now consider that same swing also affecting mythic uses.

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I had created a topic about that exact subject yesterday, I won't copy/paste everything i said here, but you can have my opinion if you follow that link

But yes, I do agree with the fact that the game mechanic tends to force people into maxing a single stat (with the +2 ability bonus every 2 tiers you get...), which is kind of sad.

I'm pleased to see there are other people out there thinking like me, in most of my gaming group the moment they read the playtest, they just went "oh no... not again" about the mythic ability score, but it doesn't seem to bother that much people on the forum...

PLEASE James, hear our pleas and do not give everything to min/maxer


I'm not that much worried about min/maxing (my party everyone optimaze more or less the same) as class imbalance. Wizard, Witch or Barbarian can exploit that much more than a monk or a ninja would.


I also agree that allowing the player to choose any ability score will result in min/maxing being the best way to play. I would prefer something like:

Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You must choose one ability score as the one most associated with your mythic potential. Once made, this choice can’t be changed. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to your mythic tier plus your ability scores' sum divided by 6.

That would make it so that all scores are important to getting bonus points, and completely dumping stats would hurt you. Dual Focus would need to be replaced by something like:

When calculating your mythic power uses per day, add your ability scores' sum divided by 3 (instead of 6).


I'm actually interested to see what the likelihood of a save is for a poor save progression against a maxed out casting stat. I'll see if I can work that out and post it.


With iron will and a starting wisdom score of 12, a fighter who bought up all the basic gear to improve his will save would have a 3 in 20 chance to save against dominate.

This is against a wizard with a starting casting statistic of 18.

I think that is pretty crazy, dominate is 5th level, a ninth level spell would be natural 20 or nothing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the main issues I see with them being based on ability scores is that it really rewards SAD or near SAD characters like the primary arcane casters, scarred witch doctors, dervish dancers / mythic weapon finesse users, etc.


A simple and boring solution could be to divorce it entiely fron attributes and simply make it a flat progression. Just make the rate the same as a character choosing a stat with 16 in it and they dump all thier bonus points from leveling into that stat. Since you get a mythic tier "on average" every other level, every 4th character level grants a +1 to an attribute and every 2nd mythic tier (effectively gained every 4th level) also grants a +1, then you'd increase the attribute's modifier every other mythic tier. That gives:

tier 1, 4/day
tier 2, 6/day
tier 3, 7/day
tier 4, 9/day
tier 5, 10/day
tier 6, 12/day

And so on. Not exactly elegant, I'll admit.


Just houserule that you can forfeit the +2 to any one stat for in exchange getting a +2 for any two stats that are not the one you draw mythic power from. This shoud give an interesting option to tinker with for any character, especially the MAD ones.


I am seeing already in the combat playtest that characters are focusing on a primary attribute and minimizing others. I would add something like:

"Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You must choose one ability score as the one most associated with your mythic potential. Once made, this choice can’t be changed. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to your mythic tier plus your mythic ability score’s bonus minus any negative bonus in the chosen ability score's compliment mental ability score."

So for example, if you max STR to 18 and have a 7 Int, then you can use your Mythic Power +4-2 for a total of 2 times.


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Pendin Fust wrote:

I am seeing already in the combat playtest that characters are focusing on a primary attribute and minimizing others. I would add something like:

"Mythic Power (Su): Mythic characters can draw upon a wellspring of power to allow them to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. You must choose one ability score as the one most associated with your mythic potential. Once made, this choice can’t be changed. You can draw upon your mythic power a number of times per day equal to your mythic tier plus your mythic ability score’s bonus minus any negative bonus in the chosen ability score's compliment mental ability score."

So for example, if you max STR to 18 and have a 7 Int, then you can use your Mythic Power +4-2 for a total of 2 times.

Which still helps the SAD casters and hurts MAD classes. SAD classes only need one good score, so they can afford to have mediocre scores in other places instead of dumping them completely. MAD classes need several good scores, which means there's more pressure on them to dump the scores they don't need.

...or at least that's what I would say if it weren't easy to just use a headband or belt to kill off the penalty anyhow, which means your fix doesn't really change anything.


what if attribute spread was cooked into the mythic progression? something like half your attribute advancement would have to go into mental statistics and half would go into physical?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Probably the easiest solution is a progression totally decoupled from the characteristics of the character.

A pushed to the max character can reach 46 in his stat. That is 18 mythic points. Plus the 10 from class progression he would get a total of 28 points.

Give each mythic character 4 points ply 2 fore each mythic tier and you get something very similar: 6 points at start (the same of a guy with 20 in his mythic characteristic) and 24 at the end of the career, reasonably near the max value that could be attained (barring the use of feats).


Roberta Yang wrote:

Which still helps the SAD casters and hurts MAD classes. SAD classes only need one good score, so they can afford to have mediocre scores in other places instead of dumping them completely. MAD classes need several good scores, which means there's more pressure on them to dump the scores they don't need.

...or at least that's what I would say if it weren't easy to just use a headband or belt to kill off the penalty anyhow, which means your fix doesn't really change anything.

That's an intrinsic part of the MAD classes. Monk is affected the most, with really only CHA as the only viable dump stat. Which means if you declared CON as your primary stat (not sure why you would, but why not) then your Mythic Power is only affected if you DID dump CHA. You get a +2 to an ability score on certain tiers so it will eventually even out. They won't get bonuses on the complimentary ability score if it has a bonus, only a negative if it's a dump. Since, for example, a Monk has to have decent scores all around and declares Dex as their primary, with a 14 DEX and probably a 12 WIS, they still get +2 Mythic Power uses. A Fighter who declares STR with 18 and a 9 INT gets +3 Mythic Power uses. Levels the field a bit. Granted, you could still dump WIS and declare STR as your main, but you can't stop min/maxers from doing their thing.

On a low level character, say level 1-3 and tier 1, then they probably can't afford that belt or headband, so losing a Mythic Power use for dumping a stat will balance a bit. I agree at later levels when you can buy anything it doesn't matter so much.


Pendin Fust wrote:

That's an intrinsic part of the MAD classes. Monk is affected the most, with really only CHA as the only viable dump stat. Which means if you declared CON as your primary stat (not sure why you would, but why not) then your Mythic Power is only affected if you DID dump CHA. You get a +2 to an ability score on certain tiers so it will eventually even out. They won't get bonuses on the complimentary ability score if it has a bonus, only a negative if it's a dump. Since, for example, a Monk has to have decent scores all around and declares Dex as their primary, with a 14 DEX and probably a 12 WIS, they still get +2 Mythic Power uses. A Fighter who declares STR with 18 and a 9 INT gets +3 Mythic Power uses. Levels the field a bit. Granted, you could still dump WIS and declare STR as your main, but you can't stop min/maxers from doing their thing.

On a low level character, say level 1-3 and tier 1, then they probably can't afford that belt or headband, so losing a Mythic Power use for dumping a stat will balance a bit. I agree at later levels when you can buy anything it doesn't matter so much.

(Min-maxers don't dump Wis, they need their Will saves.)

So let me get this straight: this fix is there to hurt wizards and help martials when you're at low levels like 1-3 - when wizards are already weaker than martials anyhow because they're still on the unfavorable end of the linear/quadratic relationship - but does nothing at higher levels - when martials actually need the help?

Not to mention that this only hurts Int-casters. Dex and Con are not dump stats, so even at low levels you won't see Sorcerers, Summoners, etc running around with penalties.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Hey there folks,

I have played around with a number of different formulas to determine your overall amount of mythic power. The current solution was chosen because it was in line with how many similar powers and abilities have worked in the past. I am not 100% married to the idea, and many of the solutions here could work, but I am holding out for actual play feedback before making any decision on the matter. Only one thing is certain. The calculation mechanic, be it a straight progression or one with an additive feature, will be simple to use. I'd prefer to avoid division and statistic comparison unless absolutely necessary.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Not really, you only take a negative to your Mythic Power use if you go below 10 on your chosen abiltiy score's compliment score. You may be hurt if you are a wizard who takes 18 Int and 7 Str, but that's kind of the point of the OP. Gandalf would have been more like a 12 Str and 16 Int.

At higher levels, as you pointed out, you can afford your Belts and Headbands, which are pretty commonplace purchases for people nowadays.

A Wizard who takes 18 Int but a 7 Con (relying on his HP bonus from Mythic Tiers and Hard to Kill) wouldn't be penalized at all on Mythic Power use.


Lets be perfectly honest here, the player classes that need the most help are the hybrids. I think that if mythic should do anything, it should adjust poor ability scores upwards, not an already enormous score into further heights of absurdity.

If I were to suggest anything off the cuff, it would be that every stat aside from the highest should get a +1 every other tier. It would certainly make characters more well rounded.


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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Trogdar wrote:
what if attribute spread was cooked into the mythic progression? something like half your attribute advancement would have to go into mental statistics and half would go into physical?

Or just a simple "+1 to all stats." You're getting better and more mythic but across the board. Maybe it's a choice, +2 to one to min-max yourself further or +1 to all to just get better and more heroic overall.


Ernest Mueller wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
what if attribute spread was cooked into the mythic progression? something like half your attribute advancement would have to go into mental statistics and half would go into physical?
Or just a simple "+1 to all stats." You're getting better and more mythic but across the board. Maybe it's a choice, +2 to one to min-max yourself further or +1 to all to just get better and more heroic overall.

^yeah, that is better. primary stat still needs to climb to maintain equilibrium.


Is there any logical reason for not simply associating it with Level/Tier, rather than attribute? There's already been talk of decoupling it from single attribute abuse potential, so why not just tie it to Level/Tier?

If you have a party of 4 Mythic Heroes, all at Level 5, Tier 1, but with various attribute-value diagrams between them, should the Paladin who has a +4 in his attribute bonus not be as proficient with his Mythic power as the Wizard with a +6?

Why not just use a simple "Half your level +1" formula, or "Half your level plus your Mythic Tier"?

This would give your L20/T10 characters 20 world-altering events per day each, while your L5/T1 characters would individually be changing fate 3 times daily - still nothing to sneeze at.

Just a thought.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

.... but I am holding out for actual play feedback before making any decision on the matter.

I think this is a fair request. Try and play the playtest as written before we theorycraft it to death. I look forward to trying it out this weekend.

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

The current solution was chosen because it was in line with how many similar powers and abilities have worked in the past.

[...]

Only one thing is certain. The calculation mechanic, be it a straight progression or one with an additive feature, will be simple to use. I'd prefer to avoid division and statistic comparison unless absolutely necessary.

The first sentence I quote is exactly why some of use think it is a problem. There are already a lot of reason in the rules to focus on a single ability score, Yes it works, but it's just another push in that direction...

Yesterday some of my players came and talked to me about it, they really felt like they had to chose between focusing in a single ability score in order to get more "Mythic" or build their character how they really wanted and get penalized for it.

It might not be that bad if the mythic tiers did not give you ability increase, but the mythic tiers does give you ability boost every 2 tiers, and you are penalized if you don't put that boost in your "main" ability.

In my opinion, character building and how players feel when doing it is a part of the playtest, and we can already see the impact here. You made a great job at creating archetype that opened a lot of different of playstyle, but the current system gives an edge to the straight fighter/wizard who puts all in one ability and forgets about the rest.

I don't have the numbers here but they showed me the different variant they made for their characters, and there was a 1-3 difference in mythic power uses.

And a lot of the dynamic right now revolves around mythic power "points" being the key to mythic spells/path features/...

But I do agree with you, the final mechanic must be simple and efficient.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Trogdar wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
what if attribute spread was cooked into the mythic progression? something like half your attribute advancement would have to go into mental statistics and half would go into physical?
Or just a simple "+1 to all stats." You're getting better and more mythic but across the board. Maybe it's a choice, +2 to one to min-max yourself further or +1 to all to just get better and more heroic overall.
^yeah, that is better. primary stat still needs to climb to maintain equilibrium.

This is the same solution I reached when working on developing a reasonable progression for epic. You have to, have to, absolutely must stop the continued divergence between primary ability scores (especially for spellcasters) and secondary ability scores, if for no other reason than stopping save DCs from obliterating saving throws. This is where the normal d20 system starts to come apart at its worst in the high teens, and where it absolutely shatters into the 20s.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe base it off highest Base Save bonus?

It might encourage extreme multi-classing (alchemist/barbarian/cavalier/cleric/druid/fighter/gunslinger/inquisitor/ma gus/monk/paladin/ranger, for a Fortitude save-busting example), but it sure would be interesting.

Alternatively, maybe introduce a seventh Mythic Ability Score. It could be used to determine Mythic Power, and replace one or more of the regular ability scores when determining the bonus you get to attack rolls, damage rolls, determining your carrying capacity, CMB, CMD, AC, initiative, one of your saving throws, bonus hit points, Endurance-based checks, bonus skill points, highest spell levels, bonus spells per day, bonus languages, determing your Leadership score, determining the save DC of special abilities, etc. etc.

For 4d6, drop the lowest, just roll 7 times instead of 6. For point buys, increase the point buy by 5.


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I'm in favour of the 'increase all ability scores by 1' instead of a floating, stackable +2. It means mythic characters truly are a cut above the norm and can even outdo their mortal equivalents in tasks they're not particularly geared toward as well.

A mythic wizard is stronger than a normal wizard. Does that wizard care about the boost to strength? Probably not, but he's mythic. When the need arises, he can beat those other wizards in the anti-magic wizards-only arm-wrestling tournament.


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I like the universal increase too.


How about +1 to all ability scores per 2 levels with an additional +2 to an ability score of your choice every third level. This would keep the ability score increases more even with the occasional boost to the primary or to a deficient ability score.


Alaryth wrote:
I'm not that much worried about min/maxing (my party everyone optimaze more or less the same) as class imbalance. Wizard, Witch or Barbarian can exploit that much more than a monk or a ninja would.

I agree. A min/maxing Barbarian can be at 46 strength, +18 mythic powers at level 13. While a monk or ninja is probably at 26-28 on their highest stat. Huge difference in uses per day.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

I'm in favour of the 'increase all ability scores by 1' instead of a floating, stackable +2. It means mythic characters truly are a cut above the norm and can even outdo their mortal equivalents in tasks they're not particularly geared toward as well.

A mythic wizard is stronger than a normal wizard. Does that wizard care about the boost to strength? Probably not, but he's mythic. When the need arises, he can beat those other wizards in the anti-magic wizards-only arm-wrestling tournament.

I don't mind the choice between +1 to everything vs +2 to one thing. I've had characters with penalties to stats. I'm playing a character right now with a 6 Int. Having that go up would redefine that character, and I like him the way he is, lack of skill points and all.

Osirion Contributor

There are plenty of things I'd like to see changed about the system so far, but the whole ability score conversation isn't among them. Players will use well-rounded scores, or not, as they wish. It's not for Paizo to determine who min/maxes or who doesn't believe in dump stats. It's to develop a system that allows for epic scale play. Like the rest of Pathfinder, players can skimp on character development, be well-rounded, tank their Charisma, whatever. Mythic characters will spread their points around or maximize their core abilities same as any other scale of play.


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But it is Paizo's duty to make sure there is a semblance of balance in the system they put out so players aren't restricted in their choices to feel competitive. This system poses serious issues to already challenged classes.


I am more concerned with shoring up some pretty scary save issues at higher levels. Having pluses to stats isn't the major concern for me.


Yeah, the saves could be bad, too.


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Instead of linking Mythic Power usage to your attributes, why not have it linked to character level? Maybe tier + 1/2 of your total level? Besides that, I like the idea of instead of getting a +2 to the same stat, getting two +1s to distribute between any attributes. It would help MAD characters out a bit.


They do have the dual path feat, which helps MAD classes like the magus and monk take advantage of multiple stats. While it seems like a feat tax at first, it also allows you to choose from the paths of both class, which is nice. Yes, a wizard could decide to dual path but I think if they are so focused into Int, it'd be a waste to do so. And 18 is quite an investment point-buy wise to get that 20 Int.

Osirion Contributor

Claiming the game needs balance so well-rounded players don't feel uncompetitive is not about balance, I think. Some of us might roll our eyes at the guys who maximize one or two features and pass on what we consider a more pleasing build. Again, it's not Paizo's job to start choosing between twinks, power gamers roleplayers, rookie players or whatever fake categories we want to label ourselves with. If they decide the game is actually systemically broken unless they mak changes to how players build on ability scores, that's one thing. But I'm critical of any motivation that declares a style of play superior or more fair than another. Paizo's job is to make the game fun for different kinds of players, and sell that game for as much money and as much of the market as they can. Not to tell one of my players he builds characters like a twink, or to tell me that a character with no dump stat is somehow flawed. I feel comfortable putting one of my builds up against any challenge. Some monsters will be mythiced with only the best options available and be really tough for their CR. Another PC or NPC might have a 40 in their top ability score and use that to make my life hard. I'll get by on my style of play and have fun doing it, and dump stat players will get by when I ask for will saves and Diplomacy checks just fine. The game is okay as is, and designing another system (though the staff will surely look at the ideas offered here) is likely to be more complicated for a less than satisfying solution.

Cheliax

jemstone wrote:

Is there any logical reason for not simply associating it with Level/Tier, rather than attribute? There's already been talk of decoupling it from single attribute abuse potential, so why not just tie it to Level/Tier?

If you have a party of 4 Mythic Heroes, all at Level 5, Tier 1, but with various attribute-value diagrams between them, should the Paladin who has a +4 in his attribute bonus not be as proficient with his Mythic power as the Wizard with a +6?

Why not just use a simple "Half your level +1" formula, or "Half your level plus your Mythic Tier"?

This would give your L20/T10 characters 20 world-altering events per day each, while your L5/T1 characters would individually be changing fate 3 times daily - still nothing to sneeze at.

Just a thought.

chaoseffect wrote:
Instead of linking Mythic Power usage to your attributes, why not have it linked to character level? Maybe tier + 1/2 of your total level?

I feel like this is the answer, 1/2 Character level + Mythic Tier. It'll make for an additive progression, and one that is familiar to players (1/2 level + something is about as simple and easy to apply as anything in the game), but one that is separate from potential min-maxing. I don't necessarily feel that min-maxing is to be avoided at all costs - it can be right, for the right character - but I don't think it should effect you're overall viability, even as much as it does, and certainly not even more. This will also avoid the problem of disparity within a single group of players. Normally, at least in the groups I've played in, characters tend to be the same level, so regardless of how the characters choose to work their Ability Scores, none of the players will surge ahead or fall behind in their ability to warp reality with their awesomeness. Dual Focus could even be replaced by a feat that would let you add 3/4 character level instead of 1/2, or something similar.

...anyway, that's my two cents.


Odraude wrote:
They do have the dual path feat, which helps MAD classes like the magus and monk take advantage of multiple stats. While it seems like a feat tax at first, it also allows you to choose from the paths of both class, which is nice. Yes, a wizard could decide to dual path but I think if they are so focused into Int, it'd be a waste to do so. And 18 is quite an investment point-buy wise to get that 20 Int.

You're mixing the dual path and the dual focus (I think?) feats. They're two separate feats.


Steven T. Helt wrote:
Again, it's not Paizo's job to start choosing between twinks, power gamers roleplayers, rookie players or whatever fake categories we want to label ourselves with.

It is their job to make a game that all those can use, preferably at the same time, with minimal issues. If they want to sell books, that is.

Quote:
If they decide the game is actually systemically broken unless they mak changes to how players build on ability scores, that's one thing. But I'm critical of any motivation that declares a style of play superior or more fair than another.

What do you mean with style of play? If they have a system like this, what they're doing is making casters win the game, period. Because by gaining both +1 to DC for every two tiers and by gaining further mythic power points based on this, they'll out-DC the saves of enemies in no time. Two tiers of metamastery and all their spells, even against mythic targets, will require two successful spells due to persistant spell. With Amazing Initiative, this means any caster of 5th tier or above can force all they can target with their spells to make four saves every turn or completely suck. And since they're SAD, they'll have far more mythic power points to spend on it than the MAD classes will have to spend on defending against those.

So every two levels they get +1 to DC. If you want to keep up with that when it comes to saves, compared to the current game (in which high DC spells are already a balance issue at higher levels), good luck with that - by the time you've gotten +2 to Ref and Fort from tiers, they've gotten +4 to DCs.

Quote:
Paizo's job is to make the game fun for different kinds of players, and sell that game for as much money and as much of the market as they can. Not to tell one of my players he builds characters like a twink, or to tell me that a character with no dump stat is somehow flawed.

Exactly. That's why it's important that different characters work at least in the same ballpark. There's already an issue where MAD classes (monk, rogue) have a hard time compared to SAD classes (wizard, sorcerer) if even remotely optimized.

Giving a huge further bonus to SAD classes is an issue because it means monks and rogues will have an even harder time keeping up with the casters.

So I agree: Paizos job is to make the game fun for different kinds of players. Someone who likes to play monks shouldn't be forced into a completely different character than someone who plays a wizard because what challenges the wizard obliterates the monk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Guardian Beyond Beyond wrote:
How about +1 to all ability scores per 2 levels with an additional +2 to an ability score of your choice every third level. This would keep the ability score increases more even with the occasional boost to the primary or to a deficient ability score.

No. Same problem still exists in that you are jacking up primary ability scores and further increasing the differences between saving throws and DCs.

Steven T. Helt wrote:
There are plenty of things I'd like to see changed about the system so far, but the whole ability score conversation isn't among them. Players will use well-rounded scores, or not, as they wish. It's not for Paizo to determine who min/maxes or who doesn't believe in dump stats. It's to develop a system that allows for epic scale play. Like the rest of Pathfinder, players can skimp on character development, be well-rounded, tank their Charisma, whatever. Mythic characters will spread their points around or maximize their core abilities same as any other scale of play.

In principle I agree - you do not build your game around min/maxers. Attempting to do so will create problems. The problem here is that the current system doesn't require anything more than the beginnings of casual optimization to unbalance things. Further encouraging focus on a single attribute does nothing good for the system. Put differently, there is no reason to encourage this and there are multiple alternatives. As a result, why continue? Divorcing mythic power from ability scores is not removing options from the board, it is making a structural change in the long run no one will notice to remove potential issues.

Trogdar wrote:
I am more concerned with shoring up some pretty scary save issues at higher levels. Having pluses to stats isn't the major concern for me.

The irony here kills me. You do not recognize that adding +10 to an ability DC determining stat will further exacerbate the saving throw issue?

Osirion Contributor

I don't believe the game is that much out of balance. In theory, people can cook numbers to point out how the game breaks down at higher levels, but in practice, there's no more people clamoring at the beginning of a game (of any level) to play a caster than there ever has been. Right now, today, there are plenty of people who feel rogues, ninja, alchemists and monks are fun to play as is and not the step-children of Pathfinder.

I guess I'm not convinced that saves are out of whack before MA, anyway. I don't seem to have trouble making saving throws when I play. I might always wish my lowest save were closer to my highest, but getting a 20+ out of my poorest save is fine. My point about the saves is that you can fix that in another way (if you feel the need) and not complicate structures with the ability scores.

Epic 3.0 had a simple saving throw mechanism for levels above 20. And I feel Mythic Saves is too much. Maybe we can protect the poor rogues' role by not giving evasion to every character and simply add to all saves during mythic tiers, without dictating play style with a more comlpicated ability score structure?


Steven T. Helt wrote:
And I feel Mythic Saves is too much. Maybe we can protect the poor rogues' role by not giving evasion to every character (...)?

I think your concern tells us more about the Rogue than it does about the Mythic rules. And it's rather ironic when coupled with your defense of the weakest classes in PF.


Jackissocool wrote:
Odraude wrote:
They do have the dual path feat, which helps MAD classes like the magus and monk take advantage of multiple stats. While it seems like a feat tax at first, it also allows you to choose from the paths of both class, which is nice. Yes, a wizard could decide to dual path but I think if they are so focused into Int, it'd be a waste to do so. And 18 is quite an investment point-buy wise to get that 20 Int.
You're mixing the dual path and the dual focus (I think?) feats. They're two separate feats.

Ah you're right, not sure how I missed all that.

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