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Throw everything in that characteristic


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

51 to 73 of 73 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Peter Stewart wrote:


Trogdar wrote:
I am more concerned with shoring up some pretty scary save issues at higher levels. Having pluses to stats isn't the major concern for me.
The irony here kills me. You do not recognize that adding +10 to an ability DC determining stat will further exacerbate the saving throw issue?

That's kind of why I have been offering alternatives to the current system several times during this thread.... did you read any of it?

I'm concerned about save disparity, that's why I think the ability score bumps should be altered... clear?


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Admittedly I can get behind the mythic power being disassociated with ability score, but not because it would "encourage powergaming" if left alone. More for helping the MAD classes, which I think the only MAD class that'd need it is the monk. I could see ability scores more useful for either powers used by each Mythic Class, or as prerequisites for Dual Focus. Like, you have to have a certain ability score to take powers from the other Mythic Class. Just a thought though.


I think the whole concept of mythic character it about great strengths with a crippling weakness. The system, this far, is working fine to ensure the concept. Maybe you could link the weaknesses to uses of mythic power giving extra uses per flaws or from really low attributes too.

Osirion Contributor

I don't want this to become adversarial. I just don't think there are poor sad, no-fun-to-play classes. Everyone is in this game. If I disagree with three things here, it's that mythic characters need mythic flaws, that there are any unfortunate homeless adventurers out there who grew up on the wrong side of the Core rulebook, or that offering mythic adventurers less freedom in assigning their ability scores is the best way to solve the problems with disparate saving throws. Requiring flaws for characters is no fun, and telling PCs they must spread around some of their bonus ability score points because other classes just can't handle them is no fun.

Again, I propose that Mythic Saves (essentially evasion and mettle) be replaced with static save increases. The 3.0 model deserves a look - all saves go up equally. I did look at the other options in this thread, and there are some good ideas. I just agree with Jason's point that complicating the structure comes second to an easier solution, and I disagree that the game has clear winners and losers. Those things are all dependent on GMs, player design, character development, and other dynamics. The ninja and rogue players in our games fare just fine compared to the casters and barbarians.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe give a bonus equal to 1/2 your Mythic Tier to saves, and then the ability to spend a Mythic Power point as an immediate action to gain evasion & stalwart against one attack or for 1 round. That makes using the class abilities of rogues and inquisitors, etc., available at a cost.


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Wouldn't it be better if the stat stats increases worked like the figther weapon trainig group. Something like:

  • Tier 2: +2
  • Tier 4: +4/+2
  • Tier 6: +6/+4/+2
  • Tier 8: +8/+6/+4/+2
  • Tier 10: +10/+8/+6/+4/+2

That way the MAD don't have to spread their stat growth and SAD character has the same overall strength, also this helps increasing the saves and makes them more MYTHIC.

Humbly,
Yawar


YawarFiesta wrote:

Wouldn't it be better if the stat stats increases worked like the figther weapon trainig group. Something like:

  • Tier 2: +2
  • Tier 4: +4/+2
  • Tier 6: +6/+4/+2
  • Tier 8: +8/+6/+4/+2
  • Tier 10: +10/+8/+6/+4/+2

That way the MAD don't have to spread their stat growth and SAD character has the same overall strength, also this helps increasing the saves and makes them more MYTHIC.

Humbly,
Yawar

This is worth thinking about. You would have to seriously look at the impact of such large attribute bonuses over these tiers(how it would effect equivalent level an so forth).


Trogdar wrote:
YawarFiesta wrote:

Wouldn't it be better if the stat stats increases worked like the figther weapon trainig group. Something like:

  • Tier 2: +2
  • Tier 4: +4/+2
  • Tier 6: +6/+4/+2
  • Tier 8: +8/+6/+4/+2
  • Tier 10: +10/+8/+6/+4/+2

That way the MAD don't have to spread their stat growth and SAD character has the same overall strength, also this helps increasing the saves and makes them more MYTHIC.

Humbly,
Yawar

This is worth thinking about. You would have to seriously look at the impact of such large attribute bonuses over these tiers(how it would effect equivalent level an so forth).

Maybe halve the bonuses?


chaoseffect wrote:
Instead of linking Mythic Power usage to your attributes, why not have it linked to character level? Maybe tier + 1/2 of your total level? Besides that, I like the idea of instead of getting a +2 to the same stat, getting two +1s to distribute between any attributes. It would help MAD characters out a bit.

Going this way, the mythic feat that adds a second stat to your mythic power pool would simply let you pick 1 stat and add its bonus into your mythic power.

Osirion Contributor

If you allow the +10/+8/+6 approach, those ability scores are going to be unseemly even at low levels.

When it comes to hiking mythic ability scores, one think I think missing in MA is epic magic items. We don't yet have a system that gets us to a +6 enhancement bonus, or a way to have a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength or Intelligence. 3.0 epic charged too much for those items, but we have several classes that can achieve a +8 alchemical or size bonus with little trouble. Classes that can't accomplish those big gains aren't at that much of a disadvantage, but if the issue is fair saving throws, why not have a system where a +8 enhancement bonus is available at higher levels, or price out belts and headbands with mixed bonuses. Maybe 144k is too much, but I really want the help with my Fort and Reflex saves, so I buy a +6 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con belt. I know one could do this already, but it feels a little twinkish if it's not printed in the SRD and might offer some help for the saving throw problem.

I like Smilodan's option of the 3.0 save bonuses and gaining evasion and mett...erm...stalwart as a mythic power expenditure


The one issue with giving increases to all stats is that classes with special bonuses from secondary stats will become very powerful. Monks might need this buff, but Paladins will essentially gain a free +5 to all saving throws, in addition to the bonuses that everyone else is getting from their saving throws.

Though, getting double benefit from stat increases is already a bit of an issue in this system... my Heavens Oracle gets to add his Cha to saves at level 20 due to his capstone. Guess what stat he's putting his +10 into?


yeah its kind of weird that some classes will have saves into their mid 20's and even thirties from specific examples(like the above) while others might have a save of 15 or 16 at cap. It also seems as though save dc's from high powered casters can still beat the high saves, so one wonders how the low savers are supposed to function?

Osirion Contributor

Maybe a saving throw bump should be a path choice, or a universal choice. If you feel the need for another +2 on your Will saves, you have to use resources to get, it, but you can.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just on a side note, most hybrid characters who take the feat to use 2 ability stats will have more than the hyper focused wizard will with or without the feat. The amount of points a high ability score costs is prohibitive and so the secondary stats are not as high as a hybrids.

Andoran

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YawarFiesta wrote:

Wouldn't it be better if the stat stats increases worked like the figther weapon trainig group. Something like:

  • Tier 2: +2
  • Tier 4: +4/+2
  • Tier 6: +6/+4/+2
  • Tier 8: +8/+6/+4/+2
  • Tier 10: +10/+8/+6/+4/+2

That way the MAD don't have to spread their stat growth and SAD character has the same overall strength, also this helps increasing the saves and makes them more MYTHIC.

Humbly,
Yawar

I was thinking more in-line with:

Tier 2: +2
Tier 4: +2/+2
Tier 6: +4/+2
Tier 8: +4/+4/+2
Tier 10: +6/+4/+2

A slower progression that keeps stats from becoming quite so high. Thoughts?


Christopher Van Horn wrote:
Just on a side note, most hybrid characters who take the feat to use 2 ability stats will have more than the hyper focused wizard will with or without the feat. The amount of points a high ability score costs is prohibitive and so the secondary stats are not as high as a hybrids.

What about a wizard with high int and con who takes it?


Look at my Proposal in the SAD versus MAD thread!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Steven T. Helt wrote:
Maybe we can protect the poor rogues' role by not giving evasion to every character

Bah why should those Johnny come lately rogues get evasion... It should still be monk only like it was in 1.0

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
johnlocke90 wrote:
Christopher Van Horn wrote:
Just on a side note, most hybrid characters who take the feat to use 2 ability stats will have more than the hyper focused wizard will with or without the feat. The amount of points a high ability score costs is prohibitive and so the secondary stats are not as high as a hybrids.
What about a wizard with high int and con who takes it?

It works but where is all the focus? to raise con higher than 14 it means a lot of other stats are dumped or Int is no longer maxed. They still lose out on what is probably the one thing that is best for all wizards, the highest Int possible. And then what of Dex and Wis? you still need something in those stats so you don't fall to far behind. This advice also goes out the window as point buys get higher or rolled stats are used, then you see a upwards creep of tertiary stats as points are able to be distributed more while maintaining the highest Int possible.


Wizards don't need that much Wis, they have a good will save and plenty of spells that help them against will-targeting enemies.

Just as an example:
A common setup for decent-optimized (not full on) wizard on a 15 pb is:
Str7/Dex14/Con14/Int19/Wis10/Cha7
By level 4, it's Int20.
A common setup for a monk is:
Str16/Dex14/Con13/Int7/Wis16/Cha7
By level 4, it's Str17 or Con14.

So say they're level 5, have a +2 *stat* item and two mythic tiers. The wizard has it's +2 and +2 both into intelligence, the monk into strength.
If they don't take dual paths the wizard will have +7 from stat and the monk will have +5. If they do take dual paths the wizard will have +9 and the monk will have +8.

It may not be a huge difference, but when if you already see wizards as being a generally stronger choice than monks then it makes the issue worse rather than better.


Hmm... Me wonders...

The Mythic Path's add their own depth to characters, except for the feats which seem to directly impact pre-exisitng feats. So, what if, the mythic point pool were not drawn from an existing ability score but discerned from a new set of scores.

To explain, as we have it set up, you can sync your wellspring for Mythic Powers to an existing Ability Score Modifier. Well, let's move away from that and create a knew place for this pool to be drawn from, shall we?

So, when your character ascends to Mythicdom, you gain your MYTHIC ABILITY or whatever you want to call it. So, I see fit to picking three types of Abilities.

PHYSICAL
MENTAL
SPIRITUAL

So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.

What does this do for MAD versus SAD. Well, now your boost for Mythic Powers are tied to an entirely separate Ability, and if you so choose to use the tier advancements for pre-exisitng ability scores, so be it and you will face the drawback of having a lower pool of mythic powers to draw from, you see?

So, why have three different categories, well besides flavor, perhaps this new venue will open up a new list of feats that can only be taken if you were using, let's say PHYSICAL. Furthermore, path abilities may entertain, not having a tier dependency for taking them, but a particular ABILITY dependency, so a path ability may read something like this,

Mighty Damage(Ex):Damage you deal during this round is not subject to damage reductions or energy resistances,but you must expend one use of mythic power to do so.Your mythic powers must be drawn from the PHYSICAL Ability to take this path ability.

Obviously, my path ability is not very encompassing for the game as a whole, but my example should get my point across.

In conclusion, the SAD are not getting richer, and the MAD stand a chance against SAD based classes when making the ascension to Mythicdom.
Drowlord007 Yesterday, 07:10 PM | Flag |
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So, you achieve this NEW ability and it starts at 10, with a similar modifier bonus structure as other Ability Scores have. And this NEW ability's modifier is where you draw your wellspring from, instead of your major ability score.

________________________________________________________________________

I started thinking about how low the pool would be if it started out at ten. Perhaps there could be an encompassment of what others have already said here in this thread. I know if a character had had a stat that was an 18(+4) that they would start off with a 5 Mythic Points. Hmm...

Using my proposed method they would be starting out with 1 Mythic Point at tier 1. Unless they used their first path ability towards the Extra Mythic Power. In which case they would start with three.

So, my amendment to this problem is as follows. At each mythic tier advancement. So, I think it should be 1. Each level you go up +1 for each under the Mythic Power path you have chosen, PHYSICAL,MENTAL, SPIRITUAL.(MORE ON THIS IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT) And, as is already written you would still be able to boost an Ability score by two every other tier. So, in effect, if you never put your +2 toward your Mythic Ability Score it will stand at 20(+5) at tier 10.

Second amendment, the three Mythic Abilities I chose before could also play a role in the automatic +1 per level. If it were like this...

PHYSICAL - Str. Dex. Con.
MENTAL - INT. WIS. CHA.
SPIRITUAL - ANY THREE PRIOR ABILITIES i.e. A combination of the original six.

So, at each level, your one time selected Mythic Ability, from which you draw your mythic pool, determines which abilities all receive the every tier advancement +1. So, in effect, a Fighter who chooses PHYSICAL will at first tier gain +1 to all physical stats and at second tier another +1 to all physical stats for an allotted advancement of +2. Then for the second tier pre-exisiting Ability Score increase of +2, you could choose to add this to any one of your seven Ability scores. If you decide to add to your Mythic Ability Score, your Str. Dex. Con. do not gain the bonus. So, your total Mythic Ability stat would be 14(+2).

To conclude, my proposal is one that could help balance this system, yet it does weaken the potential already in existence.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 Yesterday, 09:41 PM | Flag |
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Graypelt

Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.
Drowlord007 Yesterday, 10:37 PM | Flag |
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SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.

Yeah, that seems plausible. I don't like the name spiritual anymore anyways.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 12:14 AM | Flag |
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Graypelt

I think Spiritual is actually a pretty good name. Especially when grouped with Physical and Mental.

Maybe Fundamental? Fundaphysical? Social doesn't really work, since it's kind of already incorporated in Mental, and isn't half physical or something.

Hmmm.....

SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe make SPIRITUAL be a choice of TWO ability scores? That sounds like a good balance to me.

__________________________________________________________________________

Okay, so, I dreamed up...

Following your idea of picking two abilities...What if, perchance. When you picked the SPIRITUAl, it let you pick two other and the third plus one when straight into your SPIRITUAL ability score. So, for instance...

I pick Strength and Wisdom for my Monk, by selecting the SPIRITUAL Ability. Every time I tier up I will get my +1 in Str. and Wis. and also to the Spiritual ability. That way you can really head for more mythic points, the drawback being that you only get two of your prior ability scores increased. Yeah?

You like?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

I have played around with a number of different formulas to determine your overall amount of mythic power. The current solution was chosen because it was in line with how many similar powers and abilities have worked in the past. I am not 100% married to the idea, and many of the solutions here could work, but I am holding out for actual play feedback before making any decision on the matter. Only one thing is certain. The calculation mechanic, be it a straight progression or one with an additive feature, will be simple to use. I'd prefer to avoid division and statistic comparison unless absolutely necessary.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Then consider just tying Mythic Power to Tier Rank and no characteristic at all? Say make it Tier Rank +3 and call it an eon?

Qadira

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My own thoughts!

-------------------------------------------------

Step 1. Everyone gets Dual Path at the beginning or just attach Mythic Power to Tier.

Step 2. Add this line to the last sentence of Hard to Kill: "plus twice your mythic tier". Alter 'To The Death' to take this change into account, was doing so anyway after all.

Step 3. Drop the attribute increases and replace with this:

Mythic Prowess: At 2nd level, you gains a mythic bonus equal to half your mythic tier to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. You gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to half your mythic tier. In addition, the DCs of your class features, feats, and racial features (if any) are increased by an amount equal to half your mythic tier.

Note: Yes this does affect the damage output of Two-Handed Weapon users in that they don't get 1.5 Str Mod and yes it does apply to Ranged attacks, even bows.

Step 4. Increase Hit Points gained for the 6 mythic paths by either a small amount or by con modifier. Increase Hit Points gained by adding Mythic Tiers to monsters by con modifier.

Step 5. Modify Mythic Saves to a reroll on saving throws against nonmythic sources.* Or come up with something better.

*Define Nonmythic sources as: creatures without mythic tiers, items that do not include Mythic Crafting in its requirements list, traps not imbued with mythic power.

Step 6. Clarify Unstoppable - but don't remove it. Grappled, Energy Drained, Prone, Pinned, and Helpless are listed as conditions that Unstoppable can affect. I believe Unstoppable should be able to interact with the Energy Drained Condition as well but not full on get rid of type of thing. Instead, the character could spend any number of points and get rid of 2 negative levels per mythic point spent this way. In addition, how does this feature work with poison and disease which aren't conditions?

Step 7. Immortality and Legendary Hero - Cut out this Mythic Damage stuff... it's unnecessary and extra bookkeeping having to keep track of separate types of damage. Instead say, the killing blow must be dealt by a mythic source**. Alter Legendary Hero to include something different, more awesome, and possibly simpler.

**Define Mythic source as: Creatures with Mythic Tiers or deities, items that include Mythic Crafting in its requirements list, Staffs (and staff-like items) used by creatures with mythic tiers, damage the mythic character is weak to, traps imbued with mythic power.

---------------------

Extra thoughts:

Drop the 'spend mythic power to get a die roll added to a d20 check'. It adds an extra step to combat that can already get complicated with keeping track of buff spells and such. My opinion of course

Mythic tiers should count towards caster level for SR in my opinion.

Yes! Yes! I know this system wasn't supposed to add a bunch of numbers to the characters but I think divorcing CR from number increases will cause more issues then help!. Also yes I am aware that this is the whole 'why is the wizard's fort save increasing as fast as mine, the fighter' thing but I feel that Archmage is different from Wizard... Wizard says finger waggler, Archmage says ruler of reality, being of immense power, survivor of untold threats... I think Archmage can get the pass on the saving throw, attack bonus issue of normal epic progression.

I, otherwise, love the ideas presented! Keep up the goodwork Bulmahn!

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