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Character Death and Scenario Replayability - A Sanity Check


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

We had a situation at our game this evening that the GM and I were not 100% sure on the proper handling. Another player decided to kill his character and come back in as a pregen, essentially starting over as he will be applying the chronicle he received tonight to a brand new character. The dead character was level 1 and played in a Tier 1-5 scenario in subtler 1-2 prior to the PC death this evening. From my understanding of the replayability rules, unless this player GMs the scenario he played in prior to his death he cannot play in that scenario again as a player since replayability is tied to the player and not the character (Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1-2 module exception understood).

Any help on this will be appreciated as this is something I have not seen yet or was able to find on the forum or in the GtoPFSOP. Thank you in advance.

Grand Lodge **

As you say, he can't apply credit to any character for playing the Tier 1-5 scenario again, but can for GM'ing it.

Grand Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Killing your own character is not a good idea !

There are now level 1 rebuilding rules. The player should have carried on with the character as it was and could have just rebuild it to a character he feels more happy with.

By killing his own character he placed the GM in an awkward position and strictly can't use the chronicle. Not knowing the details I can't comment on any circumstances. But it seems a drastic action from the player and if he loses out on a chronicle now, then he can only blame himself.

Shadow Lodge ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thod wrote:

Killing your own character is not a good idea !

There are now level 1 rebuilding rules. The player should have carried on with the character as it was and could have just rebuild it to a character he feels more happy with.

fixed it for you

I agree ... basically that scenario and any others the character has played are a loss for player credit... and the character he played should be reported as dead

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
Wraith235 wrote:


fixed it for you

Thanks - appreciated - managed to get in myself just before the one hour deadline but wouldn't have noticed without your post.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Thank you all for your responses. I agree that killing your character is a bad idea and I think everyone else at the table did a facepalm on that action. The player as well as everyone else at the table remembered the rebuild rules but, I guess, after the character got arrested, lost everything, and was near death (the party managed to stabilize and heal him before he decided on his own death with a lesson learned on leaving the party); the best thing to do was to start over. The new character pregen did receive a chronicle (to be applied to his brand new level 1 with a new character number) and only received everything from the final encounter. The previous character has been/will be reported as dead.

Thod, the details on the dead character were that he had played in Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment prior to the scenario we played last night and wanted to know if he could go back and play it again for credit since the character that received the chronicle was dead. That question brought about this posting and, if I understand these answers correctly, I am correct in that he will still not be able to play Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment for credit as he is considered as having played the scenario. The only way he can apply a chronicle to the new character for that scenario is to GM that scenario.

The purpose for the posting was to verify the ruling that the player who killed his character will not be able to play Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment for credit with his new or any other character despite the death of the character that played in that scenario would be correct. It sounds, based on the answers received, that it would be right on the money. Thank you again everyone.

Taldor **** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

At level 1, no amount of lost equipment is worth a character death. You start out with 150 GP. You make around 500 GP from finishing the scenario, AND you get XP and PP. So what if he literally loses every possession he owns? Killing off his character will still seriously put him backwards.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Netopalis, he was reminded to that very fact but was not concerned.

Taldor **** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Well, I guess that's his prerogative.

Was this his first game as a level 1? Was he told that he could finish out the mission with a pregen? I don't know that I would have allowed him to come back with a pregen, personally. If he did, I certainly wouldn't have given him a second chronicle for it.

Did this chronicle with partial credit have an XP point attached to it?

Grand Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
Preston Hudson wrote:
Netopalis, he was reminded to that very fact but was not concerned.

In this case he will have to live with the consequences. I'm writing on another thread about to ensure we don't loose our inclusivity in PFS. But there is only so far you can go.

PFS isn't a computer game with a reboot option.

But thanks for asking and looking out for that player.

Grand Lodge ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Preston Hudson wrote:
The player as well as everyone else at the table remembered the rebuild rules but, I guess, after the character got arrested, lost everything, and was near death (the party managed to stabilize and heal him before he decided on his own death with a lesson learned on leaving the party); the best thing to do was to start over. The new character pregen did receive a chronicle (to be applied to his brand new level 1 with a new character number) and only received everything from the final encounter. The previous character has been/will be reported as dead.

Two characters belonging to the same player, both receiving chronicle sheets for the same scenario (and the same session even)? That's not a good idea. He should return the chronicle sheet that the pregen 'earned' (or didn't, rather).

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Netopalis, it was not his first game at level one. I was not the GM for the game but she allowed him to remain in the game. He did receive a chronicle for last night's scenario but only had what was found during the last encounter. I am not aware if an XP or PP was given or blanked from the chronicle.

As a situation like this has not come up for either of us (I GM PFS on a different night and play in this group), I wanted to make sure the ruling on the replayability of Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment was correct as it was deferred by the GM pending what I was able to find out here on the messageboards.

It sounds like my thoughts in this are correct and have passed it on to the GM to assist her when she lets the player know the answer to this question. I am very appreciative of the responses and look forward to when I have to come to the community less and less for questions or sanity checks.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Paz, sorry about the confusion, the character that died never received a chronicle for the scenario from last night. The chronicle and scenario in question was Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment as the character successfully completed that scenario prior to his death last night. The new character was the only one who received the partial credit chronicle for last night's scenario.

I hope this cleared up any confusion. I wanted to insure that the ruling will be correct and consistent for the group last night as well as the group that I GM. My thanks for your replay.

*****

This is a sticky one,

I would say that since the rules state to get XP you'd have to complete 3 encounters, if he completed only one, he gets the chronicle, but no xp for it. Would get one fame for completeing the mission but not for the faction mission as I'm assuming that the "live" character did this before the pregen came into play.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Purple..., as I was not the GM for the scenario last night, I am not sure if the XP was given or was removed from the chronicle. I do appreciate the reminder about the 3 encounters rule as I almost forgot about that rule in this mess. As his new character did not complete 3 encounters and the faction was considered failed, would the new character be denied both the XP as well as any prestige? Thank you for your response.

*****

I think he would still get 1 fame for completeing the over all mission, but not for the faction and not xp ...

Taldor **** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

I don't know, like I said, I would be hesitant to give him anything. Killing yourself off during the middle of the scenario is a stupid, stupid thing to do, and even giving the player a fame point sort of rewards that behavior.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Now that I think about it again, that does make sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Cheliax **

I don't see any reason why the character's "death" couldn't just be shuffled into the rebuild rules, with his "death" being the roleplaying fluff as to why his character is completely different now.

If the old character didn't get a chronical sheet, I don't see how he could have been reported as dead.

The player was unhappy with his character, wanted to play something else, and wasn't level 2 yet. Sure doing it in the middle of a session is a littlebit shady, but in the end I don't see why it matters that much.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Victor, would the rebuild rules not apply in this case as the "dead" character's gear and gold was taken away when he was arrested during the scenario. If PCs that bailed him out jail and brought his unconscious body back to the rest of the party did not or were not able to recover the now dead PC's gear, give him nothing to sell back for the rebuild as the condition of having nothing would still exist?

Andoran *****

Netopalis wrote:
I don't know, like I said, I would be hesitant to give him anything. Killing yourself off during the middle of the scenario is a stupid, stupid thing to do, and even giving the player a fame point sort of rewards that behavior.

While I would normally agree with you on this, there is nothing covering a player having a character kill itself in the middle of the scenario. I think the best way to handle it would be like PFCBG mentioned and give him the 1 Fame. It would be the same amount of credit and gold earned as if the first character he had played had simply been locked up in jail until the final encounter.

I also agree with your first post about killing the character putting the player much further behind than simply losing the 150gp worth of equipment would.

One thing that doesnt appear to have been considered is that (as I understand it) even with the equipment being gone, if the first character had lived through the scenario, the player could have chosen to rebuild the character, which would have given him his 150gp back, effectively meaning he would have lost nothing. Too little, too late, though. :P

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Seth Gipson wrote:
the player could have chosen to rebuild the character, which would have given him his 150gp back, effectively meaning he would have lost nothing.

Eh? I thought you just got to sell back all items in your possession for full price rather than half price as normal. If items are consumed or lost, you don't get your gp back for them.

Taldor **** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Paz wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:
the player could have chosen to rebuild the character, which would have given him his 150gp back, effectively meaning he would have lost nothing.
Eh? I thought you just got to sell back all items in your possession for full price rather than half price as normal. If items are consumed or lost, you don't get your gp back for them.

The 150 GP should be the absolute least thing in this player's mind.

Andoran *****

It doesnt say that in the guide, and I am unware of any FAQ or clarification made to it. It's very possible you are right, though. :/

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Preston Hudson wrote:

Paz, sorry about the confusion, the character that died never received a chronicle for the scenario from last night. The chronicle and scenario in question was Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment as the character successfully completed that scenario prior to his death last night. The new character was the only one who received the partial credit chronicle for last night's scenario.

I hope this cleared up any confusion.

Not really. :)

Which scenario did the original PC die in? Did the player get a chronicle with 0 XP, 0gp, 0 prestige for that PC? Did the GM report the PC as dead in that scenario? (This is all as in the 'death' section on p24 of the Guide to PFS Org Play.)

Which scenario did the new pregen PC get a 'partial credit chronicle' for? Why didn't they get a full chronicle; did they not play the whole game?

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Paz, sorry the confusion was not cleared up in my response to your post.

The answer to your questions all relate to the scenario that was completed last night (I would add the title of the scenario but it has not been reported yet and I do not have my character handy at the moment to grab the chronicle). The original character was marked dead in reporting and I am unsure if he received a chronicle with 0 on XP, GP, and PP with character dead as far as I know as I did not GM this scenario. The new pregen, only participated in the final encounter so that is what he received credit for on the chronicle for the new character that he will be creating.

The original point to this whole posting was to verify if he is able to replay Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment as a player for credit since it was the last successful scenario the player's original character completed. Since, the way I understand it, replayability (excluding the excpetions) is tied to the player and not characters. Despite the character's death, the only way he could ever apply a chronicle for Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment to a character would be if he GMed Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment applied his GM credit chronicle to his new character.

I apologize for the earlier confusion and had no intent of starting a character death debate. Thank you everyone for your input as I have learn some new things as a result of this thread.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Aw man. I thought the mention of a sanity check meant that this was about Call of Cthulhu. :(

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Sorry to disappoint Kyle but I do appreciate the humor breaking up this post.

Grand Lodge ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

All clear now, I think!

Preston Hudson wrote:
The answer to your questions all relate to the scenario that was completed last night (I would add the title of the scenario but it has not been reported yet and I do not have my character handy at the moment to grab the chronicle). The original character was marked dead in reporting and I am unsure if he received a chronicle with 0 on XP, GP, and PP with character dead as far as I know as I did not GM this scenario. The new pregen, only participated in the final encounter so that is what he received credit for on the chronicle for the new character that he will be creating.

If your character dies part-way through a scenario, you can't then pick out a pregen, play the rest of the scenario and get a chronicle for that pregen. You (or rather, your fellow party member) have effectively played the scenario for credit with two different characters, which isn't allowed. The GM should take back the chronicle that the pregen received.

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane

Paz, thanks for the clarification on character death during a scenario. Sounds like he should have had to sit out for the remainder of the scenario. I will let the person who GMed the scenario know of the oversight and she can take action from there. It is now a good note for my reference as well in the event this occurs during one of the games I GM as what you have stated makes complete sense. Thank you again.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Preston Hudson wrote:
Sounds like he should have had to sit out for the remainder of the scenario.

Actually he could continue playing if he wanted and can play it again and again if he'd like, just not for credit. In this instance, I think it's the best option to give them a pregen and have them help the party out (just w/o receiving any credit for doing so). It's like the only way the person would get to see the rest of the story in that scenario.

Cheliax **

Preston Hudson wrote:
Victor, would the rebuild rules not apply in this case as the "dead" character's gear and gold was taken away when he was arrested during the scenario. If PCs that bailed him out jail and brought his unconscious body back to the rest of the party did not or were not able to recover the now dead PC's gear, give him nothing to sell back for the rebuild as the condition of having nothing would still exist?

Are there PFS rules for what happens if your character gets arrested and locked up? Not being able to continue in the scenario is a no brainer, but I'm not sure a PFS GM has the authority to take all your gold and equipment away for purposes of playing in other scenarios. I've always assumed the society bails you out at the end of the session.

Maybe there were rules in the scenario for it that I'm not privy too.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The society will bail you out at the low low cost of 5PP for a recovery.

Sczarni ***

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:

This is a sticky one,

I would say that since the rules state to get XP you'd have to complete 3 encounters, if he completed only one, he gets the chronicle, but no xp for it. Would get one fame for completeing the mission but not for the faction mission as I'm assuming that the "live" character did this before the pregen came into play.

This is generally why I never allow a player to join when there are less than 3 encounters left in a scenario. I do warn them if they join late or leave early that they will not get full gold or full PA if they can't complete their faction mission because they'll miss it.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Seth Gipson wrote:
While I would normally agree with you on this, there is nothing covering a player having a character kill itself in the middle of the scenario.

Actually going by general guidelines it's treated the same as if the player quit during the scenario. A chronicle is recorded for the player and character with zero exp and prestige, and he's basically done with it as a player.

The only exceptions are those specific tier 1-2 scenarios that are allowed to be replayed with new characters.

Qadira *** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

LazarX wrote:
The only exceptions are those specific tier 1-2 scenarios that are allowed to be replayed with new characters.

Tier 1, not Tier 1-2. There are no Tier 1-2 scenarios.

In answer to the original question:

With the exception of Tier 1 scenarios and level 1 sanctioned Modules played with a level 1 character, each player may only have 2 copies of a Chronicle from a given scenario: one for playing and one for GMing. If your character dies during a scenario (and is not returned to life), you receive a chronicle for that character with 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 GP, and the character is marked as having received the Dead condition (as was stated previously).

By extension, the player whose character died does not get a second Chronicle to apply to a different character, nor do they get to decide that the Chronicle should apply to a different character. Actions have consequences in the campaign.

Grand Lodge *****

Agreeing with Paz, Kyle, Jonathan and several others here ...

The player started the adventure with their character.

When that character died, if it was not returned to life, the GM issues a Chronicle sheet to it noting the character's death with 0 GP, 0 XP, and 0 PP and marks that character as dead on the tracking sheet and then reports the character as dead online.

There is nothing wrong with letting the player continue with a pregen if that is okay with the GM, but the pregen does not get a Chronicle sheet.

Andoran ***

So, oh Venture-Captains, how would you handle someone totally new to PFS, first PC, first game, first encounter, getting their PC killed by a crit?

Grand Lodge ***

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Some GMs might bend the rules in this exceptional situation to present PFS play in the best possible light by allowing the player to bring in a 'clone' PC and play for credit, but they might not be prepared to admit to it on a public forum, especially if they are a VC.

This situation has never happened at a table I've been GMing/playing at.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
kinevon wrote:
So, oh Venture-Captains, how would you handle someone totally new to PFS, first PC, first game, first encounter, getting their PC killed by a crit?

Hopefully you'll be starting those players in one of those scenarios like First Steps which CAN be replayed with new characters, as for the fine details that's a case by case basis. It's also a strawman case so extreme, that it has practically no relevance to the original post.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
kinevon wrote:
So, oh Venture-Captains, how would you handle someone totally new to PFS, first PC, first game, first encounter, getting their PC killed by a crit?

Well I'm not a VC, but..

I would say, "sorry about that, stupid dice." Then I would say they can create a new character (i.e. scratch the name off the sheet or put a ", JR" after their character's name), and continue from the end of the first encounter. The chronicle they'd receive would still have 1 XP, likely 1 or 2 PP, and their gold would be reduced by the appropriate amount detailed in the first encounter.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
kinevon wrote:
So, oh Venture-Captains, how would you handle someone totally new to PFS, first PC, first game, first encounter, getting their PC killed by a crit?

I felt bad for that player. It was pretty rough getting killed in the surprise round at the very start of the scenario.

Andoran ***

TriOmegaZero wrote:
kinevon wrote:
So, oh Venture-Captains, how would you handle someone totally new to PFS, first PC, first game, first encounter, getting their PC killed by a crit?
I felt bad for that player. It was pretty rough getting killed in the surprise round at the very start of the scenario.

Different scenario, not in the surprise round.

Spoiler:
0-6 Black Waters. Yes, a season 0 scenario, with a 3.5 monster. Stupid giant water bug.

Player had, with help, created himself a Witch PC, with a Con 8, which I advised against.

Since the crit that killed his PC was for enough damage that even a 12 or 14 Con Witch would have died, it isn't terribly relevant.

Made me, as GM, unhappy, since that meant the player would have had very little chance to play & enjoy PFS.

What I did, indeed, was let him bring in a clone of his PC, although it was before that encounter ended, just several rounds later. The water bug, which they were having immense trouble with, had retreated, and the other PCs were attempting to do some healing until the Witch arrived, able to do some healing to them.

Then again, I don't remember that encounter having anything in the way of treasure, anyhow.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Spoiler:
Quest For Perfection Part 1, first encounter. Brand new player had his ninja explore the camp site.

Failed Perception, snow leopard pounced, total damage took him to -11 with a Con of 12. And he had beaten the cleric on initiative.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Is there somewhere in the rules that says an unconscious player can't use the Delay action? I do this frequently for new players.

Andoran ***

Kyle Baird wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Is there somewhere in the rules that says an unconscious player can't use the Delay action? I do this frequently for new players.
Unconscious wrote:
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Helpless wrote:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Delay wrote:
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.
Dying (Negative Hit Points) wrote:

If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you’re dying.

A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.
A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable.

Since Delay is, technically, an action, a dying PC who is unconscious cannot delay.

Obviously, a dying PC with the Die Hard feat or equivalent, so that they are still conscious, are also not helpless, nor are they unable to take actions.

Qadira ****

I think unconscious players can't take any actions, which would include delaying (since it implies waiting, and you can't really wait to bleed) I would all it though, especially at level 1, at level 10... maybe different.

Edit: Comprehensively ninja'd

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Delay is actually listed as "No Action" according to the table.

Shadow Lodge *

If you could delay while dying, you wouldn't ever die, since you can delay your turn indefinitely.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Serum wrote:
If you could delay while dying, you wouldn't ever die, since you can delay your turn indefinitely.

You can only delay to an initiative of 0.

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