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Amazing Initiative Alternatives


Player Feedback

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Of the availible options: a mix of 1 & 2. As it is; the second turn is much too powerful & should take more mythic points so players are more hesitant to burn power for it. Also, it really slows down game since they're doing so much. So anything to deter it. Actually I'd prefer if the second action/turn part of it only applied once you hit another higher tier.

I don't have in anyways a problem with the players going faster than then their non-mythicly fast enemies, so the +20 is completely fine... What I have a problem with; is the party getting 2 complete sets of actions before their turn even begins(which occured most every fight) in my first playtest.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My Own Thoughts:

Mythic Initiative: You gain a bonus to your initiative equal your Mythic Tier. In addition, you gain an extra swift action. This swift action can only be used on a swift action or immediate action that requires a use of mythic power (A quickened Mythic spell does not count for this purpose).

and

Improved Initiative (Mythic) Pre-Req: Improved Initiative, Mythic Tier 3.
Double the bonus to initiative granted by Mythic Initiative. In addition, you can spend 2 uses of Mythic Power to gain an extra turn. This extra turn takes place at half your normal initiative. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the end of your first action during the round. This additional turn allows you to take the full range of actions available to you, but both turns still only count as one round for the purposes of durations and other effects based on rounds.

This combines several of the ideas of several other posters. Something to note, the maximum bonus to initiative bonus through these options is actually +24, thanks to Mythic Paragon.

On to a more original thought(Maybe):

Why doesn't the Mythic Vampire get the same mythic initiative bonus as Player Characters?? Just sayin'


Ditch the ridiculous bonus.

Ditch the extra action thing.

Secure high dex players' ability to shine.

Add some dice rolling.

Add some randomness.

Amazing Initiative: When rolling for initiative, you roll 2d20, taking the best result as your base initiative. If you roll a 20, you may take an extra standard action during the first round of combat. For each use of mythic power, you roll an additional d20 to determine your initiative.


How about splitting the ability all together? Make it grant an extra standard action at 2nd tier and a full round at 5-6+(by spending a point of course)? Then make improved initiatve (mythic) function with a +10 or +20 Initiative.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My vote for option 2!

Where is the sense in initiative, if all players will be first without any investment in most fights?

In general, while that mythic stuff is cool, it should still be playable with the normal stuff i think and not devaluate too much. Let things scale properly to level and expected power, get rid of 1/day, 2/day feats and abilities and let them scale too and offer possibilities for inherent boni to get rid of christmas tree effects. Then everything will be supersmooth.


Mythic characters go first. I don't see a problem with it. I like it.


When D&D transitioned from 3e to 3.5e, one of the more notable changes was a nerfing of the haste spell. The reasoning was that it was intended to be a fighter buff rather than provide and extra standard action for spellcasters, which is what it was actually being used for.

As for the revision, I'd make it +2 initiative per tier plus some other bonus. I haven't figured out what that bonus should be, though.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

I have been feeling for a while now that Amazing Initiative (pg 6) is perhaps too good in its current form, and can lead to some problems when it comes to tracking initiative. I wanted to float some alternative systems out there to the assembled playtesters to gather some feedback. Take a look through these suggestions and tell me what you think.

2. The bonus to your initiative changes to an amount equal to your mythic tier. In addition, you can spend one use of your mythic power to gain an extra standard action on your turn.

I've got a few other options floating around, but these are some of the
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

i love the second one, but, maybe you should move all tier to bonus all mythic character:

AC, DMG, Attack, Skills, Saves... or based on which ability they pick as favoreed

Str = Attack or Damage
Con = Fort
Dex = initiative
Int = skills
Wis = Will
Cha = ¿?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I vote for the 2x your Mythic teir as a bonus, then you can spend one MP for an extra swift action, 2 for an extra move or standard. :)


3 sounds the most like what I would logically expect the ability to work, but I don't know if it's the most balanced.

Andoran

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

I have been feeling for a while now that Amazing Initiative (pg 6) is perhaps too good in its current form, and can lead to some problems when it comes to tracking initiative. I wanted to float some alternative systems out there to the assembled playtesters to gather some feedback. Take a look through these suggestions and tell me what you think.

1. As the existing ability, but activating the power that grants you an extra turn requires you to expend 2 uses of your mythic power.

2. The bonus to your initiative changes to an amount equal to your mythic tier. In addition, you can spend one use of your mythic power to gain an extra standard action on your turn.

3. You can spend one use of your mythic power to gain a +20 bonus to your initiative check. At any one time during the combat, you can decide to take an additional standard action on your turn. After you do so, you initiative changes to what it would be without the +20 (you do not get an additional turn that round, your initiative just moves).

4. As option 3, but the bonus you gain to your initiative is +10 and your spot does not move after you spend your one free bonus standard action.

I've got a few other options floating around, but these are some of the most concrete. I am willing to entertain other options, but please keep them simple. If you need more than three sentences to explain the concept, its probably too complex.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I personally like option 2 the best.


I'm leaning toward Option 2, except with the 2-point full-round of Option 1.

It's simple, doesn't require you to keep track of too much, and doesn't render Improved Initiative utterly meaningless in a mythic vs. non-mythic fight at such a low tier.


This is taking a couple of peoples Ideas but this is what i am currently playtesting for this ability, and is working pretty well so far.

At 2nd tier, you gain a +2 mythic bonus per mythic tier on initiative checks. In addition, you gain one additional swift action each round. This additional swift action allows you to take any swift action except those such as casting spells, or activating a second mythic power.


Options 2 and 4 have the most appeal to me.


Delos Fear wrote:
At 2nd tier, you gain a +2 mythic bonus per mythic tier on initiative checks. In addition, you gain one additional swift action each round. This additional swift action allows you to take any swift action except those such as casting spells, or activating a second mythic power.

The best I've seen so far. :) It gives a bonus while preventing rocket tag.


AlgaeNymph wrote:
Delos Fear wrote:
At 2nd tier, you gain a +2 mythic bonus per mythic tier on initiative checks. In addition, you gain one additional swift action each round. This additional swift action allows you to take any swift action except those such as casting spells, or activating a second mythic power.
The best I've seen so far. :) It gives a bonus while preventing rocket tag.

The problem here is only certain character will really be able to take use of it. Most classes that take use of swift actions, are casters using Quickened spells. Those that don't, have class abilities, like the Magus, or Monk, to gain benefits.

What that means, is most characters won't receive any benefit from the extra swift action. The ones that will gain the most benefit, are a very small subset of characters. For instance, Monks (and Ninja) and Magus' spend Ki/Arcana to grant temporary benefits as a swift action; characters that use multiple style feats could activate a Mythic Power, activate a Ki/Arcana ability, or switch to a different style, effectively for free.

You could do something like use Boar Style for the 2d6 bleed, then switch to Crane Style for the defensive benefits. Or a Magus could activate a Mythic Ability, then spend an point from his Arcana Pool to gain bonuses. A Monk could spend a point for an extra attack, plus +4 to his AC, or even spend it on the +20 movement twice to get +40 (if the GM allows it to stack).

Granted, I'm focusing on the Monk/Magus, but that's because there aren't many classes that really make use of Swift actions. Extra Move actions tend to favor martials, extra Standards favor casters, extra Swift favors a small subset of classes or feats. The only one that really benefits all classes equally is a full turn of extra actions (except immediate as that uses up next rounds actions).

Maybe the best bet is +2 Intiative per level, with an increasing swift > move > standard > full at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the Extra swift action should be used ONLY for Mythic abilities making it possible for a character to use two mythic abilities in a single turn.

I feel this is evens out things between Magus, Monk, Wizard etc. and the other classes that don't get much use out of swift actions.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

I've run a few games using Amazing Initiative as it's written, at level 12/mythic 2 and level 20/mythic 10. Given that I've been running epic games for a few years now, Amazing Initiative really doesn't feel overpowered to me, and I like it far far better than the 3.5e Multispell feat that only helped casters (and helped, and helped, and kept helping each time they took it).

As such, I think Jason's option #1 is really pretty good (but see below). Having extra turns is really very cool, and entirely appropriate for mythic play, though I agree only one use of mythic power is a bit cheap.

I'm not really a fan of the "Go at half your initiative" suggestion, as that gives an extra special bonus to creatures that already have high Initiative scores, and from a GM standpoint (especially once initiative numbers move around due to ready and delay), it's far less of a bookkeeping nightmare.

I'm far less a fan of the convoluted "your possible actions change as your tier increases," as the game does not need more complexity, that's for darn sure.

Making the bonus equal to 2X tier is a very good suggestion, because at lower level/tier combinations, having both +20 to initiative and a second turn is amazingly powerful. If those level 12/tier 2 characters had only a +4 to initiative, I think the CR-appropriate encounter they had would have been a trifle less one-sided.

The only thing I would like to see is some commentary on how ready/delay affect Amazing Initiative. I've already decided (in my game):

  • If you delay or ready, both initiative counts move (e.g. +30/+10 might become +23/+3).
  • You can't use Amazing Initiative in time stop

I still haven't decided what to do when someone delays until they're last in the order and uses mythic power to take a second turn; I'm really not a fan of using it as a cheesy way to get two turns in a row, so when someone tries it I'll likely warn them that it will not give them a second turn this round but will instead 'wrap' their next move to their count +20 (e.g. if they're last in the round at 3 and use mythic power to go again, they'd get a first move in the next round at 23 and would have the option of using mythic power to go again at 3).

At least that's how I see it :)

Now, mythic time stop on the other hand ... there's a way to bring a game to a screeching halt. I ruled that the PCs could not use Amazing Initiative while in the mythic time stop just so it wouldn't get completely ridiculous.


I would go with option 1 -

1. As the existing ability, but activating the power that grants you an extra turn requires you to expend 2 uses of your mythic power.

Of course monsters would also be required to expend 2 uses of mythic power as well.


There are a few problems with Amazing Initiative. First it breaks the randomness of the d20 roll for initiative with a flat +20 bonus. This is pretty boring and creates a frigid gap between mythic players and non mythic monsters in terms of the opening round of combat.

Secondly, it allows high mythic tier players to essentially take double action a huge number of times in a single combat, which requires a DM to double the number non mythic enemys or to create mythic enemys with Amazing Initiative of their own to compensate. This leads to both sides taking double moves while expending a point each round to be at max efficiency, which is redundant. It essentially creates two rounds with a mythic point drain.

Third, the ability does not address how to handle full round action timelines and becomes sloppy in explaining a course of events.

After some brainstorming I've come up with a rule adjustment to solve all three of these problems:

At 2nd Tier a player may roll an additional d20 during initiative checks and add both rolls along with any other bonuses when determing their initiative score. The higher of these two dice rolls is considered the player's Mythic Initiative Bonus.
Once per combat a player may spend a mythic point at the end of their turn as a free action to take an additional turn that round in the initiative list where they would be without their Mythic Initiative Bonus. Any full round action being performed by the player from the previous turn is completed at the beginning of this additional turn.
At the end of this additional turn the player has two options, they may end their turn and retain this position in the initiative list the following rounds, or choose to spend an additional mythic point and return to their original position in the initiative list before losing their Mythic Initiative Bonus. If the player chooses this second option any full round action they were performing is completed at the beginning of their next turn.
This power cannot be used again until the combat ends and initiative is rolled for a new combat.

Its in the spirit of the original idea but doesn't break the game, and addresses game mechanic holes. It also forces the player to spend additional point to force two full round actions into one round.

What do you guys think?


I kind of like this:

Quote:

At 2nd Tier a player may roll an additional d20 during initiative checks and add both rolls along with any other bonuses when determing their initiative score. The higher of these two dice rolls is considered the player's Mythic Initiative Bonus.

Once per combat a player may spend a mythic point at the end of their turn as a free action to take an additional turn that round in the initiative list where they would be without their Mythic Initiative Bonus. Any full round action being performed by the player from the previous turn is completed at the beginning of this additional turn.

Not my favorite solution and I don't like the last part, that I didn't quote, but there's a homebrewed elegance to this that keeps bringing me back.


I was on the fence about the second part as well, and feel like the additional turn is balanced by losing the mythic initiative bonus. Spending just two mythic points to force two full round actions while retaining mythic initiative could be overpowered in the hands of a level 20 spell caster. I have yet to play test this rule, but we meet up tomorrow night.

I'll see if our DM will run it as follows:
At 2nd Tier a player may roll an additional d20 during initiative checks and add both rolls along with any other bonuses when determing their initiative score. The higher of these two dice rolls is considered the player's Mythic Initiative Bonus.

Once per combat a player may spend a mythic point at the end of their turn as a free action to take an additional turn that round in the initiative list where they would be without their Mythic Initiative Bonus. Any full round action being performed by the player from the previous turn is completed at the beginning of this additional turn.

The player retains this new position in the initiative list the following rounds. This power cannot be used again until the combat ends and initiative is rolled for a new combat.

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