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Amazing Initiative Alternatives


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Reckless wrote:
Tels wrote:

What about....

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.

My reason why I suggest the above is that being able to go twice is a very attractive ability for me both as a player and GM, but more so as a GM. Being able to get an extra attack routine out for Mythic Monsters is important to me, because it really lets those monsters feel terrifying and powerful, without having huge numbers. The +20 to initiative has always bugged me because you move from something like +6 to +26 at the drop of a hat. I like seeing the bonus grow organically as the player grows in power. It also limits how often the Mythic creature can take advantage of going twice, forcing him or her to really make a choice as whether or not those goblins are worth it.

I like this one (even more than mine). Retains the original flavor and awesome while limiting the spam.

I'll likely keep cycle cycle through some of these options as I run my campaign with the mythic playtest. (Get to start on Monday, yay!)

I like this one too.


Starsunder wrote:
Reckless wrote:
Tels wrote:

What about....

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.

My reason why I suggest the above is that being able to go twice is a very attractive ability for me both as a player and GM, but more so as a GM. Being able to get an extra attack routine out for Mythic Monsters is important to me, because it really lets those monsters feel terrifying and powerful, without having huge numbers. The +20 to initiative has always bugged me because you move from something like +6 to +26 at the drop of a hat. I like seeing the bonus grow organically as the player grows in power. It also limits how often the Mythic creature can take advantage of going twice, forcing him or her to really make a choice as whether or not those goblins are worth it.

I like this one (even more than mine). Retains the original flavor and awesome while limiting the spam.

I'll likely keep cycle cycle through some of these options as I run my campaign with the mythic playtest. (Get to start on Monday, yay!)

I like this one too.

I think this is reasonable. While a Mythic character is likely only to get +2 to initiative at Mythic 2, faster characters and monsters still get to shine. Just because Mythic characters are awesome doesn't mean they get to steamroll adventures. They were still often prone to mistakes and failures and an enemy could get a hand up over them.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Take a look through these suggestions and tell me what you think.

Okay!

Quote:
1. As the existing ability, but activating the power that grants you an extra turn requires you to expend 2 uses of your mythic power.

I like this. Amazing initiative in the playtest document seems to be overall better than most other early mythic abilities in that it gives you more for the price of only one mythic point, but not that much better that it's inherently crazy no matter what the price.

Quote:
2. The bonus to your initiative changes to an amount equal to your mythic tier. In addition, you can spend one use of your mythic power to gain an extra standard action on your turn.

Other than the tier bonus (I do somewhat prefer a flat bonus, but not greatly so), this is just duplicating something hero points already do, so I do not like it. It also has the problem that for some classes a standard action is usually just as good as a full round (hello spellcasters) while for other classes it's not. I would like this option better if it still let you take the full round.

Quote:
3. You can spend one use of your mythic power to gain a +20 bonus to your initiative check. At any one time during the combat, you can decide to take an additional standard action on your turn. After you do so, you initiative changes to what it would be without the +20 (you do not get an additional turn that round, your initiative just moves).

My thought on the standard action is similar to on the standard action option in #2.

Quote:
4. As option 3, but the bonus you gain to your initiative is +10 and your spot does not move after you spend your one free bonus standard action.

+10 is kind of weak. I can take Mythic Dexterity-whatever it's called feat and get a +20 to any sort of Dex check, not just solely initiative.

Standard action - same thought, again. I believe that the full round is better balanced between classes than the standard action is. Just assign it the right overall mythic point cost.
My 2c!


I like Tels' suggestion, however, I would like to see the extra turn become more effective over tiers as well. Something like the below. I also may be somewhat biased by my dislike of initiative order changes all the time.

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative and you may use two swift actions per turn. In addition at third tier, you may spend one use of mythic power to gain an extra standard action. At sixth tier, the extra standard becomes a full round action. This may be used once per mythic tier times per day.


I like option 2; it provides a progressing mythic tier initiative bonus and gives mythic heroes the option of an extra action while not being overly powerful, and it gives incentive for players to still select the Improved Intiative feat (it also gives incentive for players to select the Improved Intiative (Mythic) feat if there is one planned for the final version of Mythic Adventures).


Improved Initiative (Mythic) feat, maybe the way to do the full round action or full turn everyone wants. In my mind is very heavily thinking any kind of extra action standard or full is going to break the game. I going to keeping my mind open until next Saturday for test game until then.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

I just want to add that I also think the extra move action (or equivalent) is a good option. (As it happens, I've also played numerous 3.0/3.5 characters with abilities granting extra move actions, and I didn't end up spamming those anywhere near as much as I spammed the abilities granting extra standard actions.)

Also, regarding my swift initiative suggestion earlier in this thread: if there does end up being an ability that grants extra swift actions, it should probably specify that your addition swift action cannot be used to perform the same action as your first swift action. (No performing the same swift action twice per round.)


I like Tels' idea. Should probably include what kind of action it is (probably free), as well as being about to do it once per round. As a GM I do want big boss monsters to have a second full turn but I don't want it being too over the top.


Agile temp = a powered up version of this. = one mythic rank, So they can still leave that as is. Dual Init, is listen in that. We can leave that in for monsters only.


I was originally going to suggest a combination of 1 and 2 - Initiative bonus = Mythic Tier, 2 mythic points to activate, extra turn is a full round.

As a DM, the ability is too cool to give up, it's just a matter of making it more resource heavy so that if players want to spam it they'll run out of juice really fast.

Tels wrote:

What about....

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.

But then I read this, which I'm willing to support. It's not perfect though, because the ability is still more appealing than any other use of a mythic point. It's probably safe to assume it'll get used to the maximum amount in a day, and then players will still have their highest ability score's bonus worth of mythic points left over. I'd like it to cost 2 mythic points in addition to the above, so that players have to make a decision about whether or not to use it.


I would like to see it like this:

Amazing Initiative (Ex) : This ability provides a Mythic bonus of + 4 to your initiative, cumulative with any previous bonuses. At Mythic Teir 6, this bonus becomes +7, and at Tier 10, it becomes +10. For the expenditure of one Mythic Power point, you may elect to move again on half the initiative score without the Mythic bonus.

...with this as a Mythic feat choice....

Improved Amazing Initiative (Mythic) :
You are a true marvel when it comes to speed of action.
Prerequisites : Amazing Initiative Mythic ability.
Benefit By taking this feat, you Amazing Initiative bonus goes up to +8 at Mythic Tier 2 or higher, +12 at Mythic Tier 6, and +16 at Mythic Tier 10. By spending one Mythic power point you may choose to act again in the same round at the Initiative score without any Mythic bonus.

I feel that it gives you a decent nudge that wouldn't be too play altering at low levels ( though Improved Initiative melee will still hit the mark even faster) and allows for a continued reward as you progress in Mythic Tiers. The addition of the Improved feat also lets those who wish become even more heroically proportioned. Of course, there would also be a commensurate Monstrous feat to go along with this.

I think that only the most combat-gumby'd rogues and fighters would be interested in spamming all of their power points through this. Especially if those points could fuel something else that would be just as desirable.

I can see the Imp. Init. bearing fighter at Mythic Tier 2 with an 18 Dex rolling his initiative, burning a point to add 1d6 of untyped bonus to the roll and then adding in his Amazing bonus (let's say its at +4) to now get 1d20+ 8+ 1d6+ 4 for an initiative. So that's anywhere from 14 (all 1''s rolled) to 38 (max rolls). Someone else can run averages, I've been awake too long. If he then burns a 3rd power point, he can act again on Initiative 10 or 34 (dependant on rolls). 3 of his points burned. If he was lucky enough to have +5 as his Str mod and +4 as his Dex mod, he was already well above the norm. If he operates this way, he's down to 4 power points in one round. If the Mob is Mythic enough, he might have to repeat the show and be left with just 1 point. At Tier 3, he could move to it a bit faster after taking the Improved feat and only have one more Power point. Talk about laying the Smacketh down, though.

Granted, a Rogue could very easily take out some of even the Mythic baddies with just one round of Sneak Attack damage.

I have yet to see where one cannot burn more than one point in a round, so this should be a viable tactic.


It's somewhat out of line of most abilities in the game, but I want

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to your dexterity score on your initiative.

I dislike any mythic bonus that does not augment a preexisting ability of the character, or that gives different characters of the same mythic tier the same bonus. I don't think a wizard or a full plated fighter should take the same benefit out of this ability than a monk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Something I seem to be hearing is that people like the idea when the BBEG uses it to keep up the action economy vs a bunch of players.
And presumably a lone standing player against a bunch of minions works well.

Could some sort of rule be worked in like
"When your side is outnumbered two to one or more in a fight you may..."

Under that rule I don't really mind it as it was.
4 player group outnumbered 8 to 4 is probably up against minions, where it doesn't matter. If actually outnumbered 8 to 4 by a significant threat they probably NEED it. Conversely if only 1 PC is still standing, it's worth them using it even if there are only two bad guys left.

But the lone BBEG fight is ALWAYS worth doing it, unless the PCs opt to duel the BBEG.

Am I crazy?


Option 2.
1.Its balanced: At both lower and higher tiers non mythic
encounters can still give players a challenge without them having a
SUPER overwhelming advantage especially when combined with other
feats and abilities like improved initiative a high abilities scores.
2.Its bonus is easy to track.
3.It prevents Heroic non mythic encounters from becoming complete
cannon fodder.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
1. As the existing ability, but activating the power that grants you an extra turn requires you to expend 2 uses of your mythic power.

Of all the options, I like this one the most. Just upping the cost of the ability is nice and simple.

Quote:
2. The bonus to your initiative changes to an amount equal to your mythic tier. In addition, you can spend one use of your mythic power to gain an extra standard action on your turn.

I think it makes for a more dynamic combat to take your turn, have the other participants go, and then take another turn than it does to extend the length of your first turn.

Quote:
3. You can spend one use of your mythic power to gain a +20 bonus to your initiative check. At any one time during the combat, you can decide to take an additional standard action on your turn. After you do so, you initiative changes to what it would be without the +20 (you do not get an additional turn that round, your initiative just moves).

My feelings on this option as proposed are largely the same as for #2.

Losing the +20 bonus as a result of taking the additional action is an interesting idea, however - perhaps after taking your additional turn under option #1, your first turn with the +20 bonus moves to last in the initiative order? That way the ability carries a degree of tactical choice beyond the mythic power cost.

Quote:
4. As option 3, but the bonus you gain to your initiative is +10 and your spot does not move after you spend your one free bonus standard action.

Also largely the same feelings here as for #2 - combat has the potential to go more ways when actions are interspersed between participants.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I am willing to entertain other options, but please keep them simple.

You may spend one Mythic power at the start of a combat round to add double your Mythic rank to your initiative for that round. At any point after you have gone in that round you may interupt whatever is happening in the round and take an additional standard action.

How about that?

Otherwise I like option 4.

Shadow Lodge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I am willing to entertain other options, but please keep them simple. If you need more than three sentences to explain the concept, its probably too complex.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Amazing Initiative

Always count your initiative result as having been a 20, only rolling to determine initiative order against other creatures with this ability/power.
You may spend one Mythic power, as a free action, to gain a +10 bonus to your initiative for that round.
In addition you may act a second time at your initiative -20 (including the +10 bonus) on the same round you activate this ability/power.


so did he want us to try these out?

did i miss his reply to that?

Grand Lodge

I personally like #2 but make it a once per day power. That way the players have to decide when is the best time to use it.


Option 2 makes the most sense to me (assuming it stacks with Improved Initiative). This will help the characters feel more mythic, but not let it get out of control right away. Tier 2 (potentially 4th level) characters getting +20 to Init? There's no way a Tier 1 or non mythic creature will last.

Taldor

I now I originally suggested 3 and 4 back on another thread but after some more thought 1 and 2 seem the better options. Anything more than a +5/10 bonus for initiative seems extreme (from 1 source). And it undoes any advantage taking Improved Init, init bonus traits, or racial features.


Tels wrote:

What about....

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.

My reason why I suggest the above is that being able to go twice is a very attractive ability for me both as a player and GM, but more so as a GM. Being able to get an extra attack routine out for Mythic Monsters is important to me, because it really lets those monsters feel terrifying and powerful, without having huge numbers. The +20 to initiative has always bugged me because you move from something like +6 to +26 at the drop of a hat. I like seeing the bonus grow organically as the player grows in power. It also limits how often the Mythic creature can take advantage of going twice, forcing him or her to really make a choice as whether or not those goblins are worth it.

I'd have to say that this is where my vote would go, even when compared to what Jason put forth.


I like option #3 better provided we are talking about a full round action and not a standard action. This way, the ability remains epic while still being under control.


Having read Mr. Bulmahn's post I now realize that I am not the only one who had this thought. I'm reposting my other post here and will edit it to simplify my thoughts:

I suggest:

The

+2 initiative per Tier.

Once per hour, the Mythic hero may use of a Mythic Power to gain an additional standard-action at the end of the round, after all other actions have been taken.

If two mythic characters choose to use this ability, the actions occur in order of initiative.

If someone chose to delay their action, it must be taken BEFORE the mythic character's bonus standard action; else they are delaying into the next round as normal.

Just my thoughts,

Ken

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

I have been feeling for a while now that Amazing Initiative (pg 6) is perhaps too good in its current form, and can lead to some problems when it comes to tracking initiative.


Jackissocool wrote:
I'm starting to think the standard action is unfairly favorable towards casters, so 1 is probably the best choice. Metis's suggestion s interesting too, and worth thinking more about.

I have a suggestion that I'll repost else-where that might resolve that.

I think that Mythic Characters should get a base attack bonus increase of +1 every even Tier (edited to use correct word). This would eventually result in 1 additional attack during a full-round attack action.

IE:

5th level fighter, 2nd Tier Mythic: +5 BAB, +1 MBAB=+6/+1
10th level fighter, 2nd Tier Mythic: +10 BAB, +1 MBAB=+11/+6/+1
10th level fighter, 10th tier Mythic: +10 BAB, +5 MBAB=+15/+10/+5
11th level fighter, 10th tier Mythic: +11 BAB, +5 MBAB=+16/+11/+6/+1
15th level fighter, 2nd tier Mythic: +15 BAB, +1 MBAB=+16/+11/+6/+1
19th level fighter, 2nd tier Mythic: +19 BAB, +1 MBAB=+20/+15/+10/+5
20th level fighter, 2nd tier Mythic: +20 BAB, +1 MBAB=+21/+16/+11/+6/+1
20th level fighter, 10th tier Mythic: +20 BAB, +5 MBAB=+25/+20/+15/+10/+5

Ken


Kenneth.T.Cole wrote:
Jackissocool wrote:
I'm starting to think the standard action is unfairly favorable towards casters, so 1 is probably the best choice. Metis's suggestion s interesting too, and worth thinking more about.

I have a suggestion that I'll repost else-where that might resolve that.

I think that Mythic Characters should get a base attack bonus increase of +1 every even Tier (edited to use correct word). This would eventually result in 1 additional attack during a full-round attack action.

IE:

5th level fighter, 2nd Tier Mythic: +5 BAB, +1 MBAB=+6/+1
10th level fighter, 2nd Tier Mythic: +10 BAB, +1 MBAB=+11/+6/+1
10th level fighter, 10th tier Mythic: +10 BAB, +5 MBAB=+15/+10/+5
11th level fighter, 10th tier Mythic: +11 BAB, +5 MBAB=+16/+11/+6/+1
15th level fighter, 2nd tier Mythic: +15 BAB, +1 MBAB=+16/+11/+6/+1
19th level fighter, 2nd tier Mythic: +19 BAB, +1 MBAB=+20/+15/+10/+5
20th level fighter, 2nd tier Mythic: +20 BAB, +1 MBAB=+21/+16/+11/+6/+1
20th level fighter, 10th tier Mythic: +20 BAB, +5 MBAB=+25/+20/+15/+10/+5

Ken

The problem comes from the inherent action efficiency that is spell casting. If a Caster and a Martial both get a full-round worths of actions, they are both at full power. If both only get a Standard action, the caster is at full power, while the martial is reduced to a single strike.

That caster is going to be able to dominate battlefields (even more so than normal) because he'd be able to cast, at minimum, 2 spells each round if he so chose to do so. A martial character would only be getting a single extra attack.

In the end, limiting the Mythic Creatures to only gaining extra Standard Actions is gimping the martial characters, and empowering the casters.

Now, I don't subscribe tot he Melee/Caster Power struggle, but I do see where the pause for concern is. If people are going to be getting extra actions, they're actions should be equally potent to both all forms of plays, instead of just one faction getting a massive increase in ability, while others are only so-so.


Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a
mythic bonus on initiative checks. Add your mythic tier level plus 1/2 half of your non mythic levels (round down) to your initiative.
In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power each round to take an
additional move action during your turn. When your effective character level (character level+ mythic tier) reaches 10 this additional action becomes a standard action and when you reach an ECL of 20 this additional action becomes a full round action.

I think basing the ability on total character level vs tier helps keep the ability mythic at all levels without being overwhelming. If you reach tier 2 at class level 4 you get a +3, which is almost as powerful as a good feat but it doesn't break the game. However if you are class level 18 when you reach tier 2 that same bonus wouldn't feel mythic at all, with this formula you'd get +10 instead which feels much more mythic.

Since the timing of the tiers is designed to vary depending on play style I think that having powers that scale off of the effective character level vs the tier level would be useful on several other powers/feats as well.


Tels wrote:


The problem comes from the inherent action efficiency that is spell casting. If a Caster and a Martial both get a full-round worths of actions, they are both at full power. If both only get a Standard action, the caster is at full power, while the martial is reduced to a single strike.

That caster is going to be able to dominate battlefields (even more so than normal) because he'd be able to cast, at minimum, 2 spells each round if he so chose to do so. A martial character would only be getting a single extra attack.

In the end, limiting the Mythic Creatures to only gaining extra Standard Actions is gimping the martial characters, and empowering the casters.

Now, I don't subscribe tot he Melee/Caster Power struggle, but I do see where the pause for concern is. If people are going to be getting extra actions, they're actions should be equally potent to both all forms of plays, instead of just one faction getting a...

I see where your coming from on that. Your point, though, relies on the spellcaster assuming the correct feats to cast multiple spells in a round. There are, likewise, feats that allow martial characters to make full-attack-actions while flying around like a rocket. :)

So, I think in the end it comes down to the individual characters. It isn't really any different then how BAB works already.

To be clear, though, I wouldn't replace the Amazing Initiative ability. I would just limit it to an additional standard action (not a full round of actions). Because a Standard Action doesn't result in a full-attack action, granting an extra standard action would be a great boon to spell casters but not as much to a fighter.

Ken


Kenneth.T.Cole wrote:

I see where your coming from on that. Your point, though, relies on the spellcaster assuming the correct feats to cast multiple spells in a round. There are, likewise, feats that allow martial characters to make full-attack-actions while flying around like a rocket. :)

The only thing preventing a spell caster from casting more than once a round is that the spell caster only has one standard action in a round. Give him two standard actions in a round and he gets to cast two spells per round. No feats would be required to get two spells per round in this scenario.

There is a reason quicken spell has such a high spell slot opportunity cost.

I'm not sure what martial feats you are thinking of that allow movement and attacking as a standard action. Spring attack requires a full round action. Shot on the run requires a full round action.

The bonus should be either a full round action, or a extra move action, or an extra swift action (or even extra move + swift). All of these maintain parity between casters and martials.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I like option #1.

Taldor

I don't really understand the whole caster Vs melee issue.

If it's an extra swift action: Caster can cast a quickened spell (takes ressources),

Champions can expend one use of mythic power to move+attack with bonuses

Guardians can make a companion/cohort/etc. move+attack for one use of mythic power

Marshals can give a move action to everyone, make someone attack, or give to everyone a d20reroll.

Trickster can make an attack that gets bonuses(ignores DR, target considered flat-footed,...)

So yeah, if you look into it, EVERYONE could do something nice with an extra swift action (if Amazing Initiative gave you that).

Now... let's look at a bonus Standard action:

Casters can cast a spell (a spell is a ressource spent, much like Mythic power)

Champions can make a Perfect Strike or a Through Shot. (perfect strike needs a high Tier, I agree)

Guardians can use Drive Back.

In the end, yes the caster might have a little edge over some characters, but we must keep in mind that non-spellcaster have and will have options with their mythic path abilities. We currently have a small amount of path abilities, but I'm quite sure that in the end, everyone will be able to do something nice with a bonus standard action...

(It's strange to write that, since I'm in the no-extra action Team, but well... an extra swift action would be nice after looking at all of the different possibilities...)


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I prefer option 1 by a long shot. Even spending three Mythic power doesn't bother me, but getting the full-round is what really sets it apart as Mythic.

The other thing I could see is something like:

Quote:

You gain a bonus to Initiative equal to your Mythic tier.

As long as your initiative is over 10, you can spend a Mythic power to take a second turn at your initiative - 10. That value becomes your new initiative.

Cheers!

Landon


Darkorin wrote:

I don't really understand the whole caster Vs melee issue.

...<snipped for brevity>...

You are missing one major difference. The non-casters will have some situational abilities that they could certainly make use of an extra standard action with. The caster has his/her entire repertoire of spells to choose from regardless of the situation.

So the guy with through shot goes, wow, I sure am glad all the enemies lined up nice and neat for me to make use of this ability.

The caster goes, oh they are in a big clump, fireball. Or, oh, they are scattered about the room, wall of stone to keep them divided up. Oh, most of these are mooks, I can ignore them, but that BBEG needs to be shutdown now, so slay living/force wall around him/open pit under him/banishment/whatever. The flexibility is huge - and doesn't even burn a precious mythic power point to get any real benefit out of the standard action - or for some of the options above, burn a mythic point just to get the standard action, then a second one to do something more meaningful with the extra standard action that the caster doesn't have to spend.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am a big fan of the "Dual Initiative" ability that some mythic monsters seem to have. That definitely sets them apart and makes the more impressive, I would support giving it to any mythic monster.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am voting for Trogdar's suggestion, except tweaked from third to fourth for the one ability bump.

Trogdar wrote:
Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative and you may use two swift actions per turn. In addition at fourth tier, you may spend one use of mythic power to gain an extra standard action. At sixth tier, the extra standard becomes a full round action. This may be used once per mythic tier times per day.

And,

A) the original Amazing Initiative writeup becomes a mythic monstrous only feat called Monstrous Initiative.
B) Mythic monsters get a bonus feat, which is often going to be this one.
C) PCs, companions, mounts, familiars, eidolons and pets are barred from taking the Monstrous Initiative feat.

Results:
1) PCs scale up in power and don't immediately nova after gaining Tier 2.
2) PCs get a bonus swift action without spending a mythic point. This benefits monks the most, followed by paladins, bards, rogues. Those classes can use the extra help. More swift or immediate mythic abilities can be used by all mythic characters in each round.
3) Yes spell casters like the fourth level for an extra spell. Melee, if using the standard as a move action then full attack, they get the effects of Pounce. It brings a pounce-like abitily to all mythic melee characters, and slightly better than pounce since they can turn while moving instead of charging in a straight line. In normal progression, this should be arriving at about 8th level, so only a couple levels after getting the second iterative attack. Stacked with Haste, which is common to receive at this level, and the melee characters are going to effectively double move, full attack + 1 haste attack, or standing still for four-five attacks a round. That should be mythic enough for an eight level character. At tier 6, melee gets to shine more with the increased ability than casters. By that time, casters are already powerful enough.
4) GMs get a trump card with the Monstrous Initiative. If they don't want to use it, the GM gets to use a different mythic feat instead. It is not an "automatic" anymore that the creature will have it. That makes it harder to use knowledge skills to identify what your opponent is capable of doing.
5) The Agile template already effectively has the Monstrous Initiative feat as its Dual Initiative. But when a Divine template creature comes up and acts twice in a round, it will be surprise the players were not expecting.


I like the option 2 best.

At its current state having the available to only one side turns each and every encounter in a 1-round-wonder - especially since it seems to be a rare occurrence on the monsters' side, favoring action economy on the PCs' side even more.

Power creep at its best - what's next? Battleing lvl 59 titans again?

It also has a very digital, alien feel to it - either you're out or you're in; either you own every encounter or are owned.
Somehow I the image of the I-WIN button forms in my head...

The growing bonus feels more organic and reflects the PCs growth as they ascend tier after tier.

Gaining an additional standard action on your turn by activation via expanding 1 mythic power also ties in well.

Making this or a similar ability available on a more regular basis to monsters seems necessary, too.
Without it, monsters will be a joke (Hey look, it's a wyrm *yawn* - who wants to solo it this time?).

Ruyan.


I dislike all four options almost as much as I dislike the current state of the rule.

The ability at present does not scale properly and is overly favorable to casters - also acting twice in the initiative just serves to complicate things. Treat this more like hero points where you can take an extra action on your turn and you aren't screwing with initiative, acting twice at minus whatever, and so forth.

Mythic Initiative You gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. At tier 2 you may expend a mythic point to gain an extra swift action. At tier 5 you may expend a mythic point to gain an extra move action. At tier 7 you may expend two mythic points to gain an extra standard action. AT tier 10 you may expend two mythic points to gain an extra full round action.

My only concern would be a double full attack from a full martial which will usually kill just about any enemy - but then that was allowed under numerous rules sets in 3.5 so it might be a phantom problem. Possible solution is just removing the extra full round action and having the ability cap out at 7. In any case, forget playing around with changing initiative and so forth. It will only cause a headache for all parties (pun intended).


Peter Stewart wrote:

I dislike all four options almost as much as I dislike the current state of the rule.

The ability at present does not scale properly and is overly favorable to casters - also acting twice in the initiative just serves to complicate things. Treat this more like hero points where you can take an extra action on your turn and you aren't screwing with initiative, acting twice at minus whatever, and so forth.

Mythic Initiative You gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. At tier 2 you may expend a mythic point to gain an extra swift action. At tier 5 you may expend a mythic point to gain an extra move action. At tier 7 you may expend two mythic points to gain an extra standard action. AT tier 10 you may expend two mythic points to gain an extra full round action.

My only concern would be a double full attack from a full martial which will usually kill just about any enemy - but then that was allowed under numerous rules sets in 3.5 so it might be a phantom problem. Possible solution is just removing the extra full round action and having the ability cap out at 7. In any case, forget playing around with changing initiative and so forth. It will only cause a headache for all parties (pun intended).

The problem is, again, this still favors casters over anyone else. Imagine a Tier 7 caster, he can spend 3 Mythic Points in a round to gain an extra Standard and Swift action. So he can cast 2 quickened spells and 2 regular spells in one turn. That comes with a high likelihood of ending many fights right there.

During all this, the martials are either getting an extra move, or an extra single attack. The casters retain full power through it all, as they benefit immensely from every option provided.

It's not till Tier 10 that martials and casters begin to even out, because now the martial gets the full benefit of spending his Mythic Power, while the caster just gains the ability to, now, cast an extra summons in a round.


Another post on the forms is debating how useful the Mythic powers are to classes that rely heavily on swift actions (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p6c1?Playtest-Results-Swift-Action-Economy).

Perhaps some of the ideas above to grant a second swift action per round could be used to overcome this. Something along the lines of,

" Amazing Initiiative grants a bonus to initiative equal to twice your mythic tier. You may take a second swift action each round, but this can only be used to activate mythic abilities".


I like option 2 but I also like the idea of getting a 2nd swift action.


Tels wrote:

The problem is, again, this still favors casters over anyone else. Imagine a Tier 7 caster, he can spend 3 Mythic Points in a round to gain an extra Standard and Swift action. So he can cast 2 quickened spells and 2 regular spells in one turn. That comes with a high likelihood of ending many fights right there.

During all this, the martials are either getting an extra move, or an extra single attack. The casters retain full power through it all, as they benefit immensely from every option provided.

It's not till Tier 10 that martials and casters begin to even out, because now the martial gets the full benefit of spending his Mythic Power, while the caster just gains the ability to, now, cast an extra summons in a round.

With regard to granting actions as noted in my suggestion above, it does not allow you to take multiple version - e.g. you cannot buy a swift and a standard. That aside - and putting aside the resource ignoring based insanity associated with tossing 4 spells a round (2 quickened) - I think people underestimate the value of a move or standard action to a martial character. It is often the difference between a full attack and a standard attack. That said, I do recognize that the standard action is generally more valuable - which is why it costs more.

The pure fighter in my group would kill for an extra move or standard action, because his number one problem is his difficulty setting up full attacks in a way that is worthwhile to him.

I would note that pretty much all of the suggested changes I've seen still involve granting extra standard actions. I'm simply attempting to help even that out.

Finally, I also see the problem with swift actions, and think it is something that the mythic rules are going to have to deal with one way or another - either by granting extra swift actions or by turning a lot of the swift action stuff here into free actions (which would be my preferred change).

Taldor

Peter Stewart wrote:

With regard to granting actions as noted in my suggestion above, it does not allow you to take multiple version - e.g. you cannot buy a swift and a standard. That aside - and putting aside the resource ignoring based insanity associated with tossing 4 spells a round (2 quickened) - I think people underestimate the value of a move or standard action to a martial character. It is often the difference between a full attack and a standard attack. That said, I do recognize that the standard action is generally more valuable - which is why it costs more.

The pure fighter in my group would kill for an extra move or standard action, because his number one problem is his difficulty setting up full attacks in a way that is worthwhile to him.

I would note that pretty much all of the suggested changes I've seen still involve granting extra standard actions. I'm simply attempting to help even that out.

Finally, I also see the problem with swift actions, and think it is something that the mythic rules are going to have to deal with one way or another - either by granting extra swift actions or by turning a lot of the swift action stuff here into free actions (which would be my preferred change).

Everyone should keep in mind that at Mythic tiers, fighter can make a fullattack + a move as a full round action, and they probably can make a move action + a single attack as a swift (with a bonus on the attack roll).

I think most people think of what these actions represents right now, but tend to forget all of the new abilities that mythic tiers will bring to your character.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
ChaoticAngel97 wrote:
Tels wrote:

What about....

Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.

My reason why I suggest the above is that being able to go twice is a very attractive ability for me both as a player and GM, but more so as a GM. Being able to get an extra attack routine out for Mythic Monsters is important to me, because it really lets those monsters feel terrifying and powerful, without having huge numbers. The +20 to initiative has always bugged me because you move from something like +6 to +26 at the drop of a hat. I like seeing the bonus grow organically as the player grows in power. It also limits how often the Mythic creature can take advantage of going twice, forcing him or her to really make a choice as whether or not those goblins are worth it.

I'd have to say that this is where my vote would go, even when compared to what Jason put forth.

This would be my prefered solution. Maybe add some wording to limit the use, something like once per fight (sooooo meta :( ), once per minute or a risinig cost (1 MP for the first use within 1 minute, 2 MP for the second time, 3 for the third...).

Edit: Not a huge fan of adding much more to initiative, it would break my combat pads.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Mythic Initiative You gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. At tier 2 you may expend a mythic point to gain an extra swift action. At tier 5 you may expend a mythic point to gain an extra move action. At tier 7 you may expend two mythic points to gain an extra standard action. AT tier 10 you may expend two mythic points to gain an extra full round action.

Keep in mind, that you cannot exchange a move or standard for a swift action. Following the discussions on the board, some characters might prefer to not advance to tier 5 in order to keep the second swift action.

Also: I'm already desillusioned about the whole book-keeping effect this might have on fights.

Also - and I might repeat myself here - action economy will favor PCs even more. Single BBEG (while always a bad idea) will be obliterated before they're able to act.

Ruyan.


I think the +20 and extra action as they are on the playtest document are really good. The rules provide a way to make mythic characters "feel different", they are really on another level.

There should be no balance issues when you make them face an mythic enemy, and facing a really tough non-mythic monster would still be hard.

The whole purpose of this mythic rules, IMO, is to set those characters apart from the mortal world, and, as I see it, the great initiative and speed are the best way to do it.


RuyanVe wrote:

Keep in mind, that you cannot exchange a move or standard for a swift action. Following the discussions on the board, some characters might prefer to not advance to tier 5 in order to keep the second swift action.

Also: I'm already desillusioned about the whole book-keeping effect this might have on fights.

Also - and I might repeat myself here - action economy will favor PCs even more. Single BBEG (while always a bad idea) will be obliterated before they're able to act.

Ruyan.

1. It isn't a matter of exchange - you have a choice of what action you take if you've already gained access to that tier.

2. By the time you get to the BBEG you've probably expended the majority of your points - while he has his entire pool available. I suspect your concern will actually be reversed, at least with NPC opponents who can expend their entire pool while parties are forced to conserve.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:
RuyanVe wrote:

Keep in mind, that you cannot exchange a move or standard for a swift action. Following the discussions on the board, some characters might prefer to not advance to tier 5 in order to keep the second swift action.

Also: I'm already desillusioned about the whole book-keeping effect this might have on fights.

Also - and I might repeat myself here - action economy will favor PCs even more. Single BBEG (while always a bad idea) will be obliterated before they're able to act.

Ruyan.

1. It isn't a matter of exchange - you have a choice of what action you take if you've already gained access to that tier.

2. By the time you get to the BBEG you've probably expended the majority of your points - while he has his entire pool available. I suspect your concern will actually be reversed, at least with NPC opponents who can expend their entire pool while parties are forced to conserve.

Regarding number two, it reallly depends on the adventure and the group style. Some might spend the points early, to kill the challenges quicker and save recources - of course after MP3 thats less of a factor.

And bluntly one of the resons I am in favor of some solution that rewards using the ability to take extra turns in several fights (limit on how often, increasing cost...) is to prevent the players from saving all those points to obliterate the tough challenge. It's a bit like in some shooters, you get your big big big gun, but only rarely find ammuntion for it, so you don't use it in case of a tough boss fight... and when the fight comes you don't end up using it then either chause there might be another fight after that...


I've been thinking that we should see the ability rolled into a Mythic feat, an improved version of... *Wait for it.* Improved Initiative. Improved Initiatve (Mythic)! This is only if the ability in question can't be reduced from the flat +20 it has now which is too powerful.


Anything with an automatic +20 bonus attached to it is way overpowered IMHO. I'd rule the ability isn't acceptable from the onset.
After suffering at the hands of 3.5 splat book options, multiple extra actions and other such additions to the d20 system I'm hesitant to allow power creep of such magnitude.

+10 bonus initiative is more than reasonable.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Reckless wrote:

New option to tip it in the favor melee of types:

You gain +20 to your initiative. You may spend 1 use of your Mythic Power as a free action to treat a full-round action or a spell with a 1 round casting time as a standard action.

I like the idea, but as others said this is just an extra move action. How about:

You gain +20 to your initiative. You may spend 1 use of your Mythic Power to gain one extra action of any type (Full-round, move, standard, or swift).

It is still not as good as getting a whole extra turn, but is still balanced for melee types.

As for the +20 I think that it is an arbitrarily large number (It might as well be +1,000,000) and essentially says mythic beings always act first in combat. I'm ok with this but can see how others could think it is too powerful.

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