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Minimal Class support, intentional or not?


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion


Just noticing there are very few Mythic powers/feat etc that support class specific abilities.

I'll grant there is plenty of generics that would be useful to many classes but very few that enhance what makes a class iconic.

The exception to that rules seems to be spellcasters purely for the Mythic spells which will give their iconic casting abilities a huge boost.

The only other boost I could find of note is the Sacred Boon ability that increases your effective cleric level for determining domain powers. Other than that there seems to be very little in the way of class specific boons.

Maybe its intentional, maybe its simply because this is a first pass at Mythic and they're only covering the basic Fighter Rogue Mage Cleric but it would have been nice to see at least a couple of support feats for an iconic ability from each class e.g. Smite for Paladins, Wildshape for Druids, Bardsong for Bards etc


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Intentional. It's not meant to be based on class, but the role you envision for your character.

There are some similarities between roles and classes, but that's mostly due to the classes being the embodiment of those roles.


Cheapy wrote:

Intentional. It's not meant to be based on class, but the role you envision for your character.

There are some similarities between roles and classes, but that's mostly due to the classes being the embodiment of those roles.

Could that not mean that players potentially feel more generic in mythic campaigns instead of feeling more unique ?

As more generic Mythic power blunts the unique features of certain classes will e.g. the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian start feeling like they're playing the same class ?

Designer

Let me ask you this: what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to (for example) smite that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the paladin class?

Likewise, what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to wile shape that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the druid class?

Andoran

For wild shape I can think of magical beasts. As written you can only take the form of an animal. It would be kind of cool to see a Mythic Druid taking the form of a magical beast.

Or even that of a dragon. Taking the form a dragon would tie in very nicely for a mythic druid who is a dragon shaman.

Both are shapes the druid cannot take currently but I could easily see on a Mythic Druid.


Also other things like maybe removing penalties on an alchemist's mutagens/cognatagens, allowing animal companions to progress in size and abilities a second time, some mythic hexes/rogue tricks/fighter feats, aforementioned changes to wildshape, mythic elements introduced to bloodlines, mythic deeds that allow you to pull of crazy shots and such, things like that. Even though you get really awesome stuff through levelling up already, being able to surpass that using mythic to bolster your class rather than just complementing it would really fit with how it all feels to me. I like how the system is right now with it making you above and beyond a normal mortal, but at the same time it's not like you're above and beyond a normal class. The mythic stuff as it stands feels to me kinda like it has a stronger effect on who you are and how you handle specific situations than it does for the more general things you do as defined by your class. By allowing you to do either one with them it would give more freedom and make them feel more "mythic" in my mind.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Let me ask you this: what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to (for example) smite that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the paladin class?

Likewise, what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to wile shape that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the druid class?

Just off the top of my head

Greater Binding of Evil: Evil cannot escape your holy wrath.
When you successfully hit an evil outsider with your smite evil ability you may spend one point of Mythic Power to create an inward focused magic circle against evil centred on the evil outsider. The circle expands large enough to encompass both you and the evil outsider all other creatures are pushed outside the circle. The circle remains as long as you are within 30ft of the evil outsider on either side of the circle's boarder. You may only have one active circle at a time.

e.g.
you could stay within the circle that the outsider can't escape and defeat him in single combat or step outside the circle leaving him trapped and at your mercy

Warped Wildshape: Nature's will bends before you
You may spend one point of mythic power when using you wildshape ability to create a hybrid creature. Choose two forms you could assume take the best of both forms attributes and special abilities. The two forms must share the same size. Attribute and natural armour bonuses do not stack simply use the higher of the two. If you gain resistance and vulnerability to the same energy type they cancel each other giving you nothing.

**
e.g. Large Fire Elemental + Large Plant = Flamming Plant elemental
+4STR +4DEX +2CON +4 nat armor
You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.
immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks
generic plant e.g. constrict, grab, vunerbility fire
resist 20 fire and vulnerability fire cancel each other
**

Not saying it would be an easy thing to do but I just feel turning iconic class powers up to 11 would give that Mythic feel without losing the flavour of the class. a Paladin who binds evil creatures as he strikes them or a druid who can create new wildshape forms brining multiple sources of nature's fury to bear in a single form. maybe not the best ideas but hopefully you get the idea ?


I do like those two examples in particular. As long as every class got plenty of support, I'd be all for this. Would it work no matter what path they took? That's what I would guess.

Here's another one that could use some work but I think is a neat idea:
Absolute Empathy: You may spend one point of mythic power when you use your wild empathy ability. This allows you to use it on a magical beast, elemental, or dragon with an intelligence of 1 or 2 with no penalty. Additionally, you may use it on a magical beast, elemental, or dragon with an intelligence greater than 2 with a -4 penalty. You may also use it on vermin with no penalty.

Any creature you successfully whose attitude you successfully improve increases their attitude towards you by one more step than usual. Finally, if you would make a creature more than useful, you can... give it some sort of boost and gain a lot of control over it. Not sure what. But something like this would be cool, you know?

Other ideas: A cavalier's challenge where the enemy can't attack anyone else or flee. A ranger or inquisitor who can track teleportations and across planar boundaries. A wizard who can cast two spells of his school simultaneously. A sorcerer who can give infuse his allies with his bloodline.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Let me ask you this: what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to (for example) smite that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the paladin class?

For the paladin, and just sticking with the smite example, I'd go with adding a dimensional lock effect to smite, or giving her the frightful presence universal rule while smite was active, or perhaps even a hold monster effect. Frightful presence could scale up to a swift-action gaze attack, perhaps.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Let me ask you this: what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to (for example) smite that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the paladin class?

Likewise, what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to wile shape that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the druid class?

Some thoughts on that here.


Although, now that I think about, mayhbe class-specific things are better as mythic feats? To avoid path restrictions in case I want to make a trickster paladin or a hierophant sorcerer.


Jackissocool wrote:
Although, now that I think about, mayhbe class-specific things are better as mythic feats? To avoid path restrictions in case I want to make a trickster paladin or a hierophant sorcerer.

well there is already a little bit of path restriction with the archmage , the bulk of powers require arcane spells in one way or another.

e.g. having a modifying wildshape ability in the champion path because it makes the ability more "championish" i.e. more like a fighter while having another style of modified wildshape ability in the Hierophant path more in line with that path.

but that said there may be merit in having some generic feats to support class abilites as well perhaps in lesser ways.

honestly its not easy because as far as I can tell Mythic is more about the feel than any raw mechanical power boost

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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I do think that some mythic feats that add to specific class abilities would be great. I like the idea of adding magical beasts and dragons as possible Wild Shape options for Druids. There are so many things that you could do with it...

Designer

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That's my thinking, to... and wouldn't force you to dual-path to get the class-ability-boost that you want if it's in the "wrong" path for you.


I like the idea of mythic feats that enhance class abilities too.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

That's my thinking, to... and wouldn't force you to dual-path to get the class-ability-boost that you want if it's in the "wrong" path for you.

Arcanum Shape

Your connection to nature extends to creatures who are infused with magical energy, allowing you to take their forms.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, 3rd mythic tier
Benefit: You may use wild shape to polymorph into magical beasts in addition to animals, as per the description of the beast shape spells. When your effective druid level for wild shape reaches 10th, you may polymorph into a dragon as the spell form of the dragon I. When your effective druid level for wild shape reaches 12th, this ability functions as form of the dragon II. When your effective druid level for wild shape reaches 14th, this ability functions as form of the dragon III.
Normal: You cannot use wild shape to become magical beasts or dragons.

EDIT: Edited for both failure of formatting and for better language.


Especially when so many of the current mythic feats are... Uninteresting.

Andoran

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Lucent wrote:
I like the idea of mythic feats that enhance class abilities too.

I also think this is the way to go. I am hoping Mythic Levels are intended as more of a way to gild the player rather than as an alternative way build in and of itself.

If we look at class abilities and add enhancements above and beyond, you then make that player more of what they already are, keeping them conceptually the same, just more "mythic".

Perhaps we can have a discussion of existing class features that could be given more mythic status for each class?


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I quite like the idea that mythic paths aren't class-specific. It makes them more... well, more mythic. One Paladin can become the epitome of holiness, another builds his myth as a staunch protector, yet another becomes a holy avenger of his deity, so on, so forth. It encourages telling many different stories with an appropriate mix of classes and paths, and generally expands the number of options without unnecessary feature bloat.

If anything, I'd like Path abilities to be more permissive in which classes can benefit from them - for example, I have no idea why Endless Power is worded in a way that shafts Paladins and Rangers who'd rather tread the path of the Hierophant. It's not like their spell lists contain anything scarier in those first three spell levels than what other casters can access.

Shadow Lodge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Likewise, what sort of mythic upgrade would you add to wile shape that wouldn't just be something you'd get by gaining more levels in the druid class?

Access to those mythic templates for monsters, or at least the powers they grant would be a nice boon for wildshape(or any shapeshifter). Instead of transforming into a cheetah, I get to be an agile cheetah. Just a, not very well thought out, suggestion.


I think that if class-specific rules are introduced, it should be restricted to one or two 'iconic' abilities of each class (wild shape, smite evil, deeds, favoured enemy etc)rather than something for every ability each class gets (although deciding which is going to be difficult, maybe leaving room for future enhancements/sourcebooks?).

I think offering mythic feats are the best way around this, I think I prefer the mythic paths to be more generic personally. I like the idea that a character's class and background makes them who they are, the mythic part is just a source of power.

Phasics wrote:

Greater Binding of Evil: Evil cannot escape your holy wrath.

When you successfully hit an evil outsider with your smite evil ability you may spend one point of Mythic Power to create an inward focused magic circle against evil centred on the evil outsider. The circle expands large enough to encompass both you and the evil outsider all other creatures are pushed outside the circle. The circle remains as long as you are within 30ft of the evil outsider on either side of the circle's boarder. You may only have one active circle at a time.

BTW I love this :D

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

There's also a more practical consideration here as well.

Create a mythic path or feat that's specific to one class ability and you support one class exactly.

Whereas the same amount of developmental effort (and page space) to non targeted themed abilities spreads that same amount of support to a greater amount of targets. This is important as both are finite resources for a product.

The real problem with making class targeted paths and powers is that there are just too many classes and archetypes that change them severely.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Yeah, as I eye playtesting Mythic with my current group, a batch of pirates, there's some class-tied clear choices but some not.

- our halfling assassin is clearly Trickster
- our cleric of Gozreh who also uses guns is most likely Hierophant
- our monk pirate captain is more about ass-kicking than leading, so probably Champion not Marshal, though he might go either way
- our ranger/barbarian/druid serpent shaman is... Hard. Some of the guardian abilities fit him best, though he's sometimes a loner. He might just go for champion for more kill, though guardian would let him boost his snake companion.

I could find a place for them all, but would not want to feel like I "had to" do a certain path, even archmage, hierophant, and trickster are a little too much "well obviously if you're class X this one". If they put some class power linked thing for monk or whatever somewhere else, then you'd have tension between becoming good and your thing and fitting a mythic role, and that's a conflict I don't want to ever have.


How about a feat that would let you choose from all the powers and abilities of as many Paths as you have Core classes. So the ranger/barbarian/druid would choose Mythic powers from 3 Paths including the 10th tier power.


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I definitely like the Mythic Classes to be generic, but I like the idea of Mythic Feats that can improve class abilities.


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I like the general-ness of the feats so far. I see a few reasons for keeping it general:

- It keeps Mythic usable on its own.
- It divorces Mythic from "expanding bloat cost/support"; that is, every time there's a new archetype x or class y, new Mythic rules would need to be made to support them. Do we need added complexity? Alternately, do we need to add to the workload of Paizo employees? Their costs of production?
- It keeps separate the idea of Training and Destiny. That is, I may be Trained as a thief, but my Destiny is something entirely different.
- It divorces a player's want to control their Destiny for minmax in cases such as "better smite."
- It prevents "better smite" from being seen as a requirement, rather than a Mythic Option.

These are great ideas...I am just putting forward the idea that Mythic being more isolated has its benefits. Too, some of these ideas could be addressed other ways without dipping into the Mythic ruleset.

For instance, it would not hurt Animal Companions to have a third growth tier...but that could be handled as a separate release or addition, not tied to and not requiring Mythic.

A druid becoming a dragon or magical beast could be a PrC or an archetype.

In conclusion, while some of these could be made into Mythic, doing so removes some of what Mythic seems to aim to be. Mythic is different, it's "out there." We have archetypes, PrCs, feats...all of these options are ways we can develop methods to "improve smite." Or "add more wildshape forms."

Mythic stands a chance of becoming more than just another method to doing one of the above.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
cartmanbeck wrote:
I do think that some mythic feats that add to specific class abilities would be great. I like the idea of adding magical beasts and dragons as possible Wild Shape options for Druids. There are so many things that you could do with it...

Having run a game with an epic 3.5e druid, I'm really not a big fan of extending wild shape options even further.

Independent of that, I'm all for mythic feats that aren't quite so general purpose, but I really want to avoid the hell that 3.5e epic druids create for GMs.


As I see it laid out,

You become Mythic, this adds exceptional abilities with limited choice in the existence as they stand.

Then you choose your path, hurray! You gain access to features that may further your class' features. Which is what I believe everyone is looking for when they see these paths and attacks.

You then gain access to feats that do directly complement existing feats.

THIS THREAD ON - MINIMAL CLASS SUPPORT has brought me to two assumptions.

A - The powers that be have purposefully kept Class Specific feats and/or Mythic Path's Paths from adding to class features because it becomes to difficult to create something for every single class/archetype.

B - What the Mythic addition has provided is a way for characters to have depth from a different angle. I think what people look for immediately is optimization, hence the search or want for class based ascensions; however, it must be noted that optimization is not always key to functional fun or success. For example, you may take a Race that interest you, and that character may pursue a career in some class that he is ill suited for but it adds to the characters versatility.

In conclusion,

Stop trying to make Pathfinder a game where numbers rule over game play, but rather a place where imagination and characterization bloom. Plus, with all the mythical defenses, class supported features would simply blow the power level of mythic tiered characters through the roof, making challenges for them difficult.

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