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Facts about the war in Israel


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Qadira

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As you may have heard from any number of international media sources, war has started between Hamas (supported by a handful of other Islamic terrorist organaizations) and Israel. Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

I know from past experience (am 20 years old now and this is the third war I am being a part of) that in situations like this, most of the time people are biased against Israel. I don't know if they should be, but I do know their idea of what's going on is very skewed, and I thought to take a chance to correct it to a little extent

Before I proceed allow me to state that I am NOT religious, and as far as I am concerned I would have much rather Israel would have been founded somewhere else on the globe, where we wouldn't have to fight and kill on a regular basis. I have an American citizenship and intend to spend my adult life in America (once I am done serving in the army for the mandatory 3 years period).

So, here are some very important facts and observations about the situation here that there's a decent chance you never head before:

1) "Who started this conflict?". According to some people, war could be justified if "the other side" started it. That is, if Israel attacked first the Hamas are justified in retaliating and vice versa.
Well, it's impossible to say who started this round of violence because, for the last 80 - 100 years or so (even before Israel gained independence), both sided of the conflict have been harassing and assaulting each other with deadly force. Near to none of the people who were involved in those first days of hostility are even alive now.
Every single attack that happened during my life time was a retaliation for a previous attack by the other side.

The question of "who shot first" is, therefore, irrelevant. If you have to know the details though, for quite a long time now there have been small, secluded exchanges of fire, with Israel usually "starting" by taking out a squad of terrorists planning an attack and Hamas responding with a volley of fire aimed at civilian targets. More recently, Hamas upped the scale and for a couple of weeks, over a million Israelis lived under constant fire. At the beginning of this week, the IDF (Israeli Defnce Force, our army) assasinated one of the highest ranking persons in the Hamas, and destroyed many caches of long-range missiles and weaponry. Right now it looks as if armed IDF forces are about to invade Gaza sometime soon to start a big scale ground assault.

cotninue in my next post, this one is getting long.

Qadira

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2) "the IDF is slaughtering BILLIONS OF INNOCENT BABIES!!!! JUST FOR FUN!!!!"

Ok, so, my humor got the better of me there, but here's the thing. most Palestainians in the Gaza strip are victims of sircumstance. They are crammed really tight, leaving in the most densly populated area in the world. They are not recognized as a soverign entity, and they are forced to depend on Israel (the country that, by merit of winning the war fought in 1948, was responsible to creating Gaza in the first place) for medicine, food, electricity and other such basic needs (let me take the oppertunity to point out that even now during the war, even when Israeli lives are at risk from terrorist fire, we still provide for them, because they are not our enemy - Hamas is). Thier life is very hard, they are poor and often miserable.

BUT. During warfare, there really is no way to be more careful to do the least damage possible than what the IDF is already doing. Steps to ensure minimum risk to civilian lives include:

a. Never shooting a military target if there is even the faintest of chances that a later oppertunity will risk less civilians

b. use of very advanced targeting technology and missiles with controlled explosions, meaning the IDF can really pinpoint it's target and cause minimal residual demage

c. IDF airplanes drop Brochures with explicit warnings about areas designated for bombing, in such quentities that evrey civilian in potential danger has a chance to pick one up and read it, and enough time in advance that they have a good chance escaping.

Now on the other hand, Hamas is known for locating weapon storages in public schools or in mosques in order to make them harded to hit by IDF.
Yes, that does mean placing armed explosive near children.
It is a testimoney to the IDF's capabilities in this field that, after more than 200 attacks on Gaza today, only 14 people are dead, most of which are Hamas activists. I will remind again that Gaza is the most densly populated area in the world - so this achievnment in noteworthy.

Now, in previous wars this wasnt the case. Hundreds of civilains dies alongside hundreds of terrorists during the last war in Gaza, and many more could still die in this war. Please understand that as regretable as that is, the IDF is honestly making it's best effort to avoid pointless death.

Qadira

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3) "Palestinians brought this upon themselves!", or maybe, "Israel is evil!"

They didn't. (And Israel is not evil). Really, they didn't. Their grandfathers and grandmothers risked everything on a war against the Jews some 70 years ago - and lost. That gambit, in addition to dozens of other factors along the years brought the middle east to this absurd, impossible, futureless present. This is an incredibly complicated, intricate conflict that was part of world war 2, Britain's imperialism, the cold war, and some more local tension between Jews, Muslims, Christians, involving all of the (most young and unstable) nations in the middle east. It's really kind of nobody's fault that the Palestinians ended up where they are, and it's kind of everybody's fault. If you are looking to blame Israel for not finding a solution to the problem, ask yourself this - why has none of the other Arabian countries in the area help with a solution? there is room enough for the Palestinians in any of a great number of other countries around the middle east, and not only was none of them willing to accept the Palestinians as citizens, but the Palestinians themselves are not interested, and would settle for nothing less than getting "their" lands back. This should give you a glimpse of the complexity of the issue.

Is there someone to blame for the current S*&t storm? I think there is, I believe that to be the Hamas (though you could argue that the Hamas is nothing but a reaction to the grim reality in Gaza) but that's only personal opinion.

4) "They should find a peaceful solution!"

Ok, so "peace in the middle east" is BIG. I mean, it's such a big complex issue that I can't even kid myself into thinking I can talk about it in any meaningful way here. The only important thing to know about it is that it is very far away from reality right now. Neither side is feeling ready for actual, grown up negotiation and straightforward talks. When you talk about a peaceful solution, you are not talking about something that can be done now, you are talking about a long, looong process that is not a realistic goal for the next few weeks (or months, or years, or ETERNITIES!!!!).

Now that I have established that, let's look at the options. When the IDF learns about a squad preparing to attack, it uses a preemptive strike and kills them while they are still in Gaza. As far as I know the IDF intelligence is very accurate and those intended to die are those who end up dead, mostly without any unintended extra casualties. For their part, Hamas views this as aggression and immediately fires back (with short - range missiles, mostly, shooting at civilian targets), and also sets up more terrorists squads with new plans to attack. Sometimes they even succeed, and when they do Israel responds with attacking strategic targets, and generally killing Hamas activists and destroying weapon caches.

Recently, Hamas upped the scale of its attack for reasons unknown to me, and for more than a week, a million Israelis lives in constant feat (of course for them it's been going on for years). I have friends who live within missile range of Gaza, even my girlfriend, and I know of the constant terror and stress these are causing. Even though 90% of the time the missiles fail to hit anything, they still occasionally do. And when they do you get wounded, dead, and mentally scarred citizens.

Which country in the world would stand by when that happens? Just today, Tel Aviv was threatened by missiles (they both missed, but alarms in the city still caused some minor panic). I want you to imagine the U.S, for example, allowing a terrorist organization that can threaten New York (and even directly shoots at it) to exist.

And so this war started. For now we Israelis call this "Amod Ashan", translated as "Pillar of smoke" to English. I wander how it will be called by the rest of the world.

Anyway, I hope that some of these points, which I realize may not be obvious to someone watching this conflict from afar, will help some of you formulate more accurate opinions on what's going on. I have attempted to be as objective as possible - I realize that I failed at that a little bit, but please be sympathetic - I am personally familiar with only one side of what's going on, and so I can't help but be subjective on the subject.

Cheers :)

Qadira

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Lord Snow wrote:

As you may have heard from any number of international media sources, war has started between Hamas (supported by a handful of other Islamic terrorist organaizations) and Israel. Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

I know from past experience (am 20 years old now and this is the third war I am being a part of) that in situations like this, most of the time people are biased against Israel. I don't know if they should be, but I do know their idea of what's going on is very skewed, and I thought to take a chance to correct it to a little extent

Before I proceed allow me to state that I am NOT religious, and as far as I am concerned I would have much rather Israel would have been founded somewhere else on the globe, where we wouldn't have to fight and kill on a regular basis. I have an American citizenship and intend to spend my adult life in America (once I am done serving in the army for the mandatory 3 years period).

So, here are some very important facts and observations about the situation here that there's a decent chance you never head before:

1) "Who started this conflict?". According to some people, war could be justified if "the other side" started it. That is, if Israel attacked first the Hamas are justified in retaliating and vice versa.
Well, it's impossible to say who started this round of violence because, for the last 80 - 100 years or so (even before Israel gained independence), both sided of the conflict have been harassing and assaulting each other with deadly force. Near to none of the people who were involved in those first days of hostility are even alive now.
Every single attack that happened during my life time was a retaliation for a previous attack by the other side.

The question of "who shot first" is, therefore, irrelevant. If you have to know the details though, for quite a long time now there have been small, secluded exchanges of fire,...

Not paying attention? Hamas is the elected government of Palestine so Terrorist army? look across the border at the rest of occupied Palestine. Fact: Both have stupid people who dont get that they are unacceptable to the future. Commonwealth took that territory from Germans in WW1 and WW2 so where you all get off thinking it yours?


Thanks Lord Snow, just yesterday I was confronted with an anti Israel post on FB from my cousin. It's great to get detailed information from an Israeli perspective.


Sorry to derail this thread, but I'm genuinely interested:
Why do you have to do military service in Israel when you are a US citizen?
Is military service in Israel compulsory for jewish people regardless of their nationality?
And if so, how do they enforce this?


I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.


Ah of course. That makes sense. Thanks, Comrade.


I'd wait for Lord Snow for a definitive answer, though.

Shadow Lodge

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Lord Snow wrote:
Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one. Simply labeling one side as "terrorist" because fighting a superior force out in the open is a good way to comit suicide not create any actual distinction.

Quote:
I know from past experience (am 20 years old now and this is the third war I am being a part of) that in situations like this, most of the time people are biased against Israel.

Quite the opposite. You'll notice that We're not shipping the Palestinians tanks and attack helicopters. The palastinians may have a few internet yahoo liberals supporting it, but israel has the unwavering support of the enormous and politically powerful christian right. The vast majority of Americans can't be bothered to learn the difference between Muslims and terrorists.

Quote:
why has none of the other Arabian countries in the area help with a solution?

No country wants another poor destitute area added to its responsibility, especially when there's the possibility of israel taking the palastinias actions as the actions of say, Jordan. Jordan doesn't want to have to try to keep rockets out of the west bank. Jordan doesn't want to be invaded as a reprisal for said rockets.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, one friend of mine was so happy that his eyesight was so bad he couldn't serve. He still went to Israel and did volunteer work, because of the community pressure for him to do so.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one. Simply labeling one side as "terrorist" because fighting a superior force out in the open is a good way to comit suicide not create any actual distinction.

As a legal distinction, Palestine is not a sovereign nation. The Palestinian territories have not claimed statehood or been recognized as such. And while Hamas was democratically elected, they've since split and fought with Fatah, leaving them only in control of the Gaza Strip.

Not that any of that really changes the moral situation.


Lord Snow, do you have any comment on the continuing expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Both now and throughout the decades of negotiations?

Qadira

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thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one. Simply labeling one side as "terrorist" because fighting a superior force out in the open is a good way to comit suicide not create any actual distinction.

As a legal distinction, Palestine is not a sovereign nation. The Palestinian territories have not claimed statehood or been recognized as such. And while Hamas was democratically elected, they've since split and fought with Fatah, leaving them only in control of the Gaza Strip.

Not that any of that really changes the moral situation.

They are a country...they have always been a country...It don't matter if Europe and USA give it away because they don't want huge Jewish population in their countries. Only a Thief gives away what isn't yours. Too many people on both sides think they have god-given right to be there.

Qadira

thejeff wrote:
Lord Snow, do you have any comment on the continuing expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Both now and throughout the decades of negotiations?

Well, being an athiest (and thus not believing as the religeous people do, that God Almighty promised the jews a certain territory and therefore they should fight to have it at the expanse of all others) I am STRONGLY opposed, and I believe that the illegal settlments that some of us Israeli Jews keep creating are certainly one of the reasons that the conflict cannot end any time soon.

Unfourtnatley so far no govrenmant in Israel had even nearly enough power to forbid such settlments and enforce the law (both national and international) in that regard. That is because of the local political system - unlike in the U.S, in Israel there are numerous small parties (not just two big ones), and so evrey coalition built is a very preceious one, and it requires a lot of conccesions from the leading party. What that means is that evreyone has to be reall considerate of religeous people (there are a lot of them and they get offended easily) if they hope to be the leading party and manage to creatue any sort of sizeable coalition. That means the illegal settlments stay.

Now as to how this affects the conflict? it certainly pushes the Palestinians uo against the wall, and they have evrey right to be angry, and they should defend themselves from this slow, outragous invasion any way they can.... except by shooting at civilian targets, whcih is their current favourite. I really don't think anything can justify doing that.


Lord Snow wrote:


Now as to how this affects the conflict? it certainly pushes the Palestinians uo against the wall, and they have evrey right to be angry, and they should defend themselves from this slow, outragous invasion any way they can.... except by shooting at civilian targets, whcih is their current favourite. I really don't think anything can justify doing that.

In that crazy conflict the palestian are not the only ones killing civilians. A sad thing indeed.

I think this conflict would not end until the crimes of both sides stop.

Qadira

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one. Simply labeling one side as "terrorist" because fighting a superior force out in the open is a good way to comit suicide not create any actual distinction.

Quote:
I know from past experience (am 20 years old now and this is the third war I am being a part of) that in situations like this, most of the time people are biased against Israel.

Quite the opposite. You'll notice that We're not shipping the Palestinians tanks and attack helicopters. The palastinians may have a few internet yahoo liberals supporting it, but israel has the unwavering support of the enormous and politically powerful christian right. The vast majority of Americans can't be bothered to learn the difference between Muslims and terrorists.

Quote:
why has none of the other Arabian countries in the area help with a solution?

No country wants another poor destitute area added to its responsibility, especially when there's the possibility of israel taking the palastinias actions as the actions of say, Jordan. Jordan doesn't want to have to try to keep rockets out of the west bank. Jordan doesn't want to be invaded as a reprisal for said rockets.

Well, while Hamas was elected in a democratic process, their method of rule is certainly not democratic - none of the vital democratic establishments are there (an opposition, for starters, or any realy seperation between the armed force and the govrement). Other than that, there was only one other option except Hamas, which was Fatah, and both of them are terrorist forces that used terrorist tactics against Israel. Why could only either of these groups could be elected? because they woulnd't allow any other group to organize and offer itself as an option.

That's not real democracy.
That aside, Hamas is not acting like a govrement, it's acting like a group of terrorists. As I have mentioned in my opening posts, it's not only that Hamas is attacking Israeli civilians, it is using it's own people as meat shields. A normat tactic for a shooter squad (a squad tasked with shooting a missile towards Israel) is to enter a civilian home, hold the people living thier inside at gunpoint, and then shoot the missile. the IDF can easily identify where the shot came from and withing less than a couple of minutes an armed airplane is on it's way to take the shooters out... except quite often the shot is not taken because risk to civilian life is to great. And when the shot is taken... and something goes wrong... Hamas gets to dance around the corpse of a child, showing the world how cruel the IDF is. And the missiles Hamas shots? they are shot to terrorize (they are not very effective at killing since 90% of them miss or are shot down). They shot during the night so that civilians coulnd't sleep, they shot at the early hours of the morning so that the alarms will go off when the children are on their way to school (yes, that's shooting when children are the most vulnerable , all crammed into a little bus), and they shoot just a little bit before the evening news start, so that the attacks would be "hot news" and the media will discuss them.
That's the definiton of terrorising.

now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents. When the Jews were rebelling agains the local British govrement 70 years ago, most of the struggle was realtivley "harmless" - blowing up bridges to make things more expansive for Britains, for example, but not blindly killing. The one time where Jews did an act of terror was blowing up the King David hotel - that was unspeakable and unforgiveable, and it's a mark of shame in the countrie's history. Nobody will claim there was any real justification for that.

Qadira

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The Friendly Lich wrote:

Sorry to derail this thread, but I'm genuinely interested:

Why do you have to do military service in Israel when you are a US citizen?
Is military service in Israel compulsory for jewish people regardless of their nationality?
And if so, how do they enforce this?

Yeah, as others guessed, it's dual nationality. Born to Jewish Israeli parents that just happened to live at the U.S at the time, but I don't really remeber that time because I was 5 when they decided to return to Israel.

Also, military service in Israel is compulsory to all citizens... other than specific groups. For example, if you are Arab and you live in Israel, you don't have to serve (you can still volunteer if you are crazy enough). If you are a non Jewish civilian, than you have the option of spanding some of your time in the military in a special Jewish brain washing facility, where you study all about the Jewish religeon and people, and at the end of your time there (~6 months) you have the option of choosing to become a Jew yourself. Since non Jews are treated like 2nd rate citizens in this racist country, many non jews choose to take the option of convertion via the military (it's the easiest way possible) which is why many of them are not unwilling to be recruited anyway.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, one friend of mine was so happy that his eyesight was so bad he couldn't serve. He still went to Israel and did volunteer work, because of the community pressure for him to do so.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, of course, amongst Zionist Jews.

I've known plenty of Jews, mostly commies, who have experienced no such thing.

Qadira

Icyshadow wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
The Friendly Lich wrote:

Sorry to derail this thread, but I'm genuinely interested:

Why do you have to do military service in Israel when you are a US citizen?
Is military service in Israel compulsory for jewish people regardless of their nationality?
And if so, how do they enforce this?

Yeah, as others guessed, it's dual nationality. Born to Jewish Israeli parents that just happened to live at the U.S at the time, but I don't really remeber that time because I was 5 when they decided to return to Israel.

Also, military service in Israel is compulsory to all citizens... other than specific groups. For example, if you are Arab and you live in Israel, you don't have to serve (you can still volunteer if you are crazy enough). If you are a non Jewish civilian, than you have the option of spanding some of your time in the military in a special Jewish brain washing facility, where you study all about the Jewish religeon and people, and at the end of your time there (~6 months) you have the option of choosing to become a Jew yourself. Since non Jews are treated like 2nd rate citizens in this racist country, many non jews choose to take the option of convertion via the military (it's the easiest way possible) which is why many of them are not unwilling to be recruited anyway.

How many non-jews are there in Israel, anyway?

Also, have you actually been to Israel yourself or what?

I don't know the exact numbers for sure but it's certianly over a million, maybe even 2 million (that's roughly the number of Israeli-Arabs), which given that there are ~8 million people in Israel, is a lot.

I am living in Israel and have lived in Israel since I was 5. As I mentioned above I expirienced the 3 wars that heppend here during the last decade, and just recently I had the "pleasure" of spending some time in the south, and had to run for shalter about 5 times as the area was attacked with a missile.... let me tell you, that's not fun.


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"now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents. When the Jews were rebelling agains the local British govrement 70 years ago, most of the struggle was realtivley "harmless" - blowing up bridges to make things more expansive for Britains, for example, but not blindly killing. The one time where Jews did an act of terror was blowing up the King David hotel - that was unspeakable and unforgiveable, and it's a mark of shame in the countrie's history. Nobody will claim there was any real justification for that."

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

In my honest opinion - the only 'facts' that can be drawn on the conflict is that neither 'side' has the moral highground, and both have a lot of blood on their hands.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Let's not confuse critique of Israel as a state for its policies with attacks on Jewish people because of whatever reasons handy.

When person 1 says "Jews are hideous monsters that murder innocent Arab lambs", that's not a constructive critique of Israeli state policies, that's thinly veiled anti-Semitic vitriol.

When person 2 says "Israeli policies are bad" it doesn't mean that he/she is an anti-Semitic looney, it means that he/she is addressing what the country is doing, not what its people are.

Both sides of the coin tend to abuse this issue: pro-Israeli side labels any critique of IS state policy as slander, and anti-Jewish side tries to paint their lunatic rants as valid, justified political debate.

Qadira

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

"now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents. When the Jews were rebelling agains the local British govrement 70 years ago, most of the struggle was realtivley "harmless" - blowing up bridges to make things more expansive for Britains, for example, but not blindly killing. The one time where Jews did an act of terror was blowing up the King David hotel - that was unspeakable and unforgiveable, and it's a mark of shame in the countrie's history. Nobody will claim there was any real justification for that."

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ.

Yes, Lehi did exist... and for all intents and purposes, it was a terrorist group. However they were a fringe group of extremists, and they didn't have nearly as much influence as Hamas has in Gaza. There were Lehi, Palmahc and Etzel. of the three, Etzel was the least violent and, when what Israelis call "the war for indapendance" came about in 1948, it was Etzel that managed it and later combined with Palmach to creatue what is now known as the IDF.

I didn't know about many of the things Lehi did, only that they were a bunch of monsters... and it's not like the Jews are "good guys" in this story. All I'm saying is that attacking civilians is as close as anything in this planet can come to being "evil", and while the IDF is making HUGE efforts to avoid that, Hamas is doing anything in it's (very limited) power ro ensure it happens to both Palestenians and Israelis.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lord Snow wrote:
All I'm saying is that attacking civilians is as close as anything in this planet can come to being "evil", and while the IDF is making HUGE efforts to avoid that, Hamas is doing anything in it's (very limited) power ro ensure it happens to both Palestenians and Israelis.

To be honest, if Hamas attempted to fight in a 'proper' way and kept all of it's military assets in a separate area clear from any civilians... I'd wager it would take less than a day for Israeli airstrikes to turn that place to a glass desert.

I am not defending what they do, but I would imagine that there is a reasonable amount of self-preservation involved as well. I also accept that they would purposefully do it to provoke backlash when inevitable civilian casualties occur.

Lord Snow - you mention Lehi, Palmahc and Etzel... but what of Irgun?

Edit: Answered own question:
Etzel = The common Israeli name for Irgun Tzvai-Leumi, or Irgun, an organization operating in the British Mandate of Palestine from 1931 to 1948.


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Mark Sweetman wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
All I'm saying is that attacking civilians is as close as anything in this planet can come to being "evil", and while the IDF is making HUGE efforts to avoid that, Hamas is doing anything in it's (very limited) power ro ensure it happens to both Palestenians and Israelis.

To be honest, if Hamas attempted to fight in a 'proper' way and kept all of it's military assets in a separate area clear from any civilians... I'd wager it would take less than a day for Israeli airstrikes to turn that place to a glass desert.

I am not defending what they do, but I would imagine that there is a reasonable amount of self-preservation involved as well. I also accept that they would purposefully do it to provoke backlash when inevitable civilian casualties occur.

Lord Snow - you mention Lehi, Palmahc and Etzel... but what of Irgun?

From what I've seen and heard, Hamas deliberately lets civilians get killed so they can make Israel look worse. Basically, it's a form of propaganda against Israel, who's seen "attacking a far weaker foe" and "getting civilians involved in their war" etc. It's pretty sad for me to watch Finnish media in particular supporting anti-Israeli propaganda and anti-semitism on occasion as well. Hell, I'll never set foot in Vantaa knowing there are gatherings of neo-nazis there, since I value my life enough not to get near them.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Icyshadow - 100% agree and do not dispute... but I'd also state that in some cases the IDF will carry out airstrikes or retaliatory attacks where there is a known and signifcant chance for civilian deaths.


I never said there have been no civilian deaths involved, but I'm pretty sure they don't kill them for cheap laughs either.

Unless the fact that the terrorists hide in areas filled with civilians means that they are deliberately killing the civilians with them.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Not for cheap laughs... but they do die and in far greater numbers than Israeli civilian deaths.

Also, I'm sure Hamas don't look upon deaths of their own civilians too lightly either.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Again I'll restate that I'm not condoning either sides' actions - just trying to emphasize that the conflict is far from black and white; and is more a grey vs gray.


Mark Sweetman wrote:

Not for cheap laughs... but they do die and in far greater numbers than Israeli civilian deaths.

Also, I'm sure Hamas don't look upon deaths of their own civilians too lightly either.

Better protection on Israel's side.

For Israel, I'm pretty sure civilian deaths are a tragedy.

For Hamas, civilian deaths are that and a means to an end.

As for the grey vs grey, I'd say Israel is a lighter shade than Hamas.

They probably won't be satisfied until the jews are driven out, killed, or both.


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So then leave.


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And where is there to leave for the jewish nowadays, huh?

Also, you should leave the lands stolen from the Native Americans.

This is assuming you live in the US, which is stolen property in a sense.


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Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, one friend of mine was so happy that his eyesight was so bad he couldn't serve. He still went to Israel and did volunteer work, because of the community pressure for him to do so.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, of course, amongst Zionist Jews.

I've known plenty of Jews, mostly commies, who have experienced no such thing.

There are large populations of orthodox, radical orthodox, Zionists, and lapsed Jewish people in Australia with a big split of far left to far right and every thing inbetween (I have noticed a lot of the right wing Jewish people I know are from former communist countries).

It is very interesting to be the only non Jewish person stuck in the middle of a political argument. I usually plead ignorance to avoid offending people I like.

I am not a fan of the policies of Israel. I do believe that there should be a Palestinian state but not at the expense of Israel. I do believe that a lot of the excuses for unrest in the Middle East could be resolved by the creation of Palestine.

Creating Palistine would involve Israel Egypt and Jordan sacrificing a small amount of land and the world pitching in to build the infrastructure to ensure that Palestine is a sustainable state.

The way to stop people wanting to fight you is to give them something to lose. Because somebody with nothing to lose is far more willing to commit acts of violence than somebody with a job a house and plans for the future.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, one friend of mine was so happy that his eyesight was so bad he couldn't serve. He still went to Israel and did volunteer work, because of the community pressure for him to do so.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, of course, amongst Zionist Jews.

I've known plenty of Jews, mostly commies, who have experienced no such thing.

There are large populations of orthodox, radical orthodox, Zionists, and lapsed Jewish people in Australia with a big split of far left to far right and every thing inbetween (I have noticed a lot of the right wing Jewish people I know are from former communist countries).

It is very interesting to be the only non Jewish person stuck in the middle of a political argument. I usually plead ignorance to avoid offending people I like.

I am not a fan of the policies of Israel. I do believe that there should be a Palestinian state but not at the expense of Israel. I do believe that a lot of the excuses for unrest in the Middle East could be resolved by the creation of Palestine.

Creating Palistine would involve Israel Egypt and Jordan sacrificing a small amount of land and the world pitching in to build the infrastructure to ensure that Palestine is a sustainable state.

The to stop people wanting to fight you is to give them something to lose. Because somebody with nothing to lose is far more willing to commit acts of violence than somebody with a job a house and plans for the future.

From what I've read, there have been offers to make such an area which have been rejected.

They clearly want Palestine to replace Israel instead of coexisting with it so far from what I've seen.

Qadira

Icyshadow wrote:
Well, Germany (during World War II but nor after it) had a different vision from the rest of Europe on how to "solve the Jew problem", which might explain why they didn't want to stay in Europe. Also, call me biased, but after all the crap Jews have had to go through in history (the inquisition being just one example among many), I say they should get their own country where they could at least be somewhat safe from such stuff happening again.

Thats not what it was...

Proms were a region of Eastern Europe where Jews were confined and limited in numbers attending university. Massacres in 1890s half a million in a few years so you know...movement of jewish population into Austrohungarian Empire and involvement of Jews in the Austrian Parliament just in time for Adolf Hitler to visit as child and think This multiculturalism is chaos - not enough Germans to govern them all - while huge numbers of Jews migrate to Ottoman Empire. Anti christian movement in Turkey popular with jewish descendants of european purge of Jews and this leads to Armenian Slaughter of 1914-1918. Now WW1 And Palestine purged of Germans and Turks. Europe decide to kick out Jewish Population and dump them in Palestine.
Now More jewish Persecution in Europe as the bulk of jewish population move west. Nazis rise in Europe 1936. WW2. More Jews slaughtered.

So its a cycle of violence in which everyone is involved. Sides are irrelevant. Everyone is an Idiot.


Icyshadow wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, one friend of mine was so happy that his eyesight was so bad he couldn't serve. He still went to Israel and did volunteer work, because of the community pressure for him to do so.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, of course, amongst Zionist Jews.

I've known plenty of Jews, mostly commies, who have experienced no such thing.

There are large populations of orthodox, radical orthodox, Zionists, and lapsed Jewish people in Australia with a big split of far left to far right and every thing inbetween (I have noticed a lot of the right wing Jewish people I know are from former communist countries).

It is very interesting to be the only non Jewish person stuck in the middle of a political argument. I usually plead ignorance to avoid offending people I like.

I am not a fan of the policies of Israel. I do believe that there should be a Palestinian state but not at the expense of Israel. I do believe that a lot of the excuses for unrest in the Middle East could be resolved by the creation of Palestine.

Creating Palistine would involve Israel Egypt and Jordan sacrificing a small amount of land and the world pitching in to build the infrastructure to ensure that Palestine is a sustainable state.

The to stop people wanting to fight you is to give them something to lose. Because somebody with nothing to lose is far more willing to commit acts of violence than somebody with a job a house and plans for the future.

From what I've read, there have been offers to make such an area which have been rejected.

They clearly want Palestine to replace Israel instead of...

It has been rejected by all sides Israel as well as Egypt Jordan and Palestinian representatives.

A good patriot knows his country makes mistakes and tries to fix them a bad patriot blinds himself to his countries faults denies its mistakes and is doomed to repeat them.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

It has been rejected by all sides Israel as well as Egypt Jordan and Palestinian representatives.

A good patriot knows his country makes mistakes and tries to fix them a bad patriot blinds himself to his countries faults denies its mistakes and is doomed to repeat them.

I don't even live in Israel, and I refuse to do military service there.

Can't say I'm a patriot, even though I sympathize more with Israel than with Hamas.

Qadira

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I would imagine that Lord Snow has dual American/Israeli citizenship.

I'm also pretty sure that compulsory service is not mandated for Jews that aren't Israelis because, well, because that'd be silly.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, one friend of mine was so happy that his eyesight was so bad he couldn't serve. He still went to Israel and did volunteer work, because of the community pressure for him to do so.

There is pressure to serve and take up dual citizenship, of course, amongst Zionist Jews.

I've known plenty of Jews, mostly commies, who have experienced no such thing.

There are large populations of orthodox, radical orthodox, Zionists, and lapsed Jewish people in Australia with a big split of far left to far right and every thing inbetween (I have noticed a lot of the right wing Jewish people I know are from former communist countries).

It is very interesting to be the only non Jewish person stuck in the middle of a political argument. I usually plead ignorance to avoid offending people I like.

I am not a fan of the policies of Israel. I do believe that there should be a Palestinian state but not at the expense of Israel. I do believe that a lot of the excuses for unrest in the Middle East could be resolved by the creation of Palestine.

Creating Palistine would involve Israel Egypt and Jordan sacrificing a small amount of land and the world pitching in to build the infrastructure to ensure that Palestine is a sustainable state.

The to stop people wanting to fight you is to give them something to lose. Because somebody with nothing to lose is far more willing to commit acts of violence than somebody with a job a house and plans for the future.

From what I've read, there have been offers to make such an area which have been rejected.

They clearly want Palestine to replace

...

Ask Russia to Nuke Jerusalem. Show them all that big nations can out stupid all of them.


Why am I expecting Iran to nuke Jerusalem before Russia gets a chance?

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:


Andrew R wrote:
Funny that a people not so long ago forced into ghettos gets their own nation and does the same to another people.....and then wonders why there is violence.

Now all we need to do to prove jews are as evil as nazis is to wait till they build their own concentration camps...

...dude, are you ****ing serious? The jewish got their own nation, and every damned neighbouring country responded with an attack....

They got their own nation of someone else's land. If your home was claimed and given over to "previous owners" would you happily accept it? This state was born in a land grab, opposed by nieghbors sure but if your home was claimed would you not want your neighbors to step in? They attacked to protect the arabs living in the area of palistine being pushed out. Being neither jewish nor arabic i have no dog in this fight save hating suffering but i truly wonder how many have an emotional response to this conflict solely due to their own background.

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Isreal is just america's troublesome little buddy in the mideast. maybe we should just move them here, less headache.

Qadira

Icyshadow wrote:
Why am I expecting Iran to nuke Jerusalem before Russia gets a chance?

$5 says isreal throw the first punch then claims they had to do it.


Andrew R wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Why am I expecting Iran to nuke Jerusalem before Russia gets a chance?
$5 says Israel throws the first punch then claims they had to do it.

Somehow I can see Israel having more common sense than the Arabic countries, but that's just me I guess.

And really, a nuke on Israel would also affect the neighbouring countries, considering the radiation area and such.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm personally of the opinion that I just don't know the conflict well enough to have a critical argument for either side.

All I know is that we Chileans are doing what we can to help from the other side of the world, having fully opened our borders and offered permanent citizenship to any refugees of the conflict who may want to find shelter this way. Somewhere around 500 Palestinians have already done so, from what I understand.

Several Chilean-Palestinian groups have organized to provide means for people in Gaza to get here safe and sound, get them jobs and housing. The local Catholic Church and Chilean Muslims have also started moving to get more people here.

It is not ideal, but if a measure of peace and tranquility can be given, I think it is worth it.

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