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Facts about the war in Israel


Off-Topic Discussions

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
cp wrote:
The Israelis and the Palestinians can not live in peace together now, so your solution is let the Palestinians take over Israel - and you think that will result in greater peace how?
The "take over" would be by democratic vote, and wouldn't happen for some 75 years IF it ever does. (birth rates drop dramatically once you start educating women and they can join the workforce)

Actually it would probably be much faster than that. Jews would still be a majority at the moment, but not by much: roughly 6 million Jews and 5.9 million Arabs, if you count both Israeli Arabs and those in the territories.

Shadow Lodge

Lets see...

Gaza strip 1.7 million Palestinians
West bank 2 million Palestinians.

Israel= 7.9 million Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004) Cia world fact book

7.9 X 76%= ~6 million.

7.9X 24%= 1.9 million.

Hmmm. You might be right. Still have to include the half a million Jews in the west bank though. That signifigantly ups the time table from what i thought they would have.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Lets see...

Gaza strip 1.7 million Palestinians
West bank 2 million Palestinians.

Israel= 7.9 million Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004) Cia world fact book

7.9 X 76%= ~6 million.

7.9X 24%= 1.9 million.

Hmmm. You might be right. Still have to include the half a million Jews in the west bank though. That signifigantly ups the time table from what i thought they would have.

I believe the Israeli settlers in the West Bank are counted in Israel's population. Because, you know, those parts of the West Bank that Jews live in are part of Israel. Those parts they control, but Arabs live in, are something else.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

It also doesn't address the 'Right of Return' or that the UN considers the decendents of the Palastinans as 'refugees' as well (unlike other 'refugees')

Not to mention the current Arab governments have shown to be less than forthcoming on compensating for properties they seized. Hey, turnabout is fair play.


Injustices do not justify another injustices.


Nicos wrote:
Injustices do not justify another injustices.

No, but they often bring them about anyway. Especially when there is no just recourse.


As others have said, Israel is there and it's there to stay.
In theory I have no problem with them defending themselves as a sovereign country, I just hate that we feel like we need to scare off anyone who might look at them the wrong way. If they want to be a country and defend themselves...let them do precisely that.

Ironically, granting Palestinian sovereignty is probably the only way Israel will ever really win. To wit, if a sovereign Palestine attacked, they could retaliate with abandon and wipe them all out, because it would then be a purely military matter, not one of terror.

Qadira

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Gorbacz wrote:
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.
You Forgot About Poland!

Im pole and irish, that has to be bonus points somewhere

Qadira

Icyshadow wrote:

The thing is, can Israel really risk letting them all in? Jews will become a minority in "their own country".

Not too long after, they'll either be the ones persecuted again, or driven out completely like they have usually been.

europeans are becoming minorities in the nation they have held for ages, should they treat immigrants that way too?

Qadira

Samnell wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

The thing is, can Israel really risk letting them all in? Jews will become a minority in "their own country".

Not too long after, they'll either be the ones persecuted again, or driven out completely like they have usually been.

Well, this is where South Africa becomes a very pertinent example. If you give the entire population of your land-space the vote, and your government gets voted into non-existance, your government was never all that stable to begin with.

Or Jim Crow America, of course.

I'm a casual fan of Jewish culture. Like most Americans I've probably consumed more output from Jewish creators than anything but white anglo-saxon protestants. I'm not very concerned about ethnic heritage and all that, but if I had to pick a culture to have been raised in, American Jewish culture would at least make the shortlist. But the notion of a Jewish state has always been ominous to me. I mean ethnic nationalism never works out well for local minorities, something that European Jews (admittedly not a majority in Israel) have probably noticed.

So why would it work any better this time? Preserving the Jewish character of Israel is deeply suspicious, especially when that character preservation requires massive disenfranchisement. Needing tactics like this to achieve one's goals is a good indicator that one has a horrible set of goals even absent the rest.

european jews and gypsies had the same problem, living within a nation but never being part of it. seems the nieghbors never like that.

Qadira

BigNorseWolf wrote:
cp wrote:


In order to enfranchise the Palestinians you want to disenfranchise the Israeli's? How is that a solution?

the solution is incredibly simple. West bank. Gaze. You are now part of israel. You people standing there, here is your Israeli citizenship. Israel has done it before.

How are Israeli's being disenfranchised by extending the rights of all its citizens to all of the people its currently ruling?

Quote:
The Israelis and the Palestinians can not live in peace together now, so your solution is let the Palestinians take over Israel - and you think that will result in greater peace how?

The "take over" would be by democratic vote, and wouldn't happen for some 75 years IF it ever does. (birth rates drop dramatically once you start educating women and they can join the workforce)

Quote:

The Israeli's have a functioning nation, with a working democracy. The have political and economic systems FAR greater than any other nation in the area. Their system of government has the best empirical results of any in the area.

And you want to replace it with.. what?

Not replace: extend. Replace a functioning political and economic system that only applies to 85% of the area israel controls to a slightly more palastinian influenced political and economic system that covers 100% of the area Israel controls. Its not like there aren't already Palestinians that are israeli citizens.

Or in short, you broke it you bought it.

I think many isreali would prefer genocide to giving up the race state.


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Andrew, it'd be awesome if you could just contribute to the conversation, instead of playing "Top This."

Qadira

Hitdice wrote:
Andrew, it'd be awesome if you could just contribute to the conversation, instead of playing "Top This."

It is not a top this, it is a fact. trying to integrate the palistinians into isreal is NOT going to happen. there would be no support from enough of the political groups and too much fear of the citizen reaction.


Andrew R wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

The thing is, can Israel really risk letting them all in? Jews will become a minority in "their own country".

Not too long after, they'll either be the ones persecuted again, or driven out completely like they have usually been.

Europeans are becoming minorities in the nation they have held for ages, should they treat immigrants that way too?

I'm actually afraid of what will happen to us all when Europeans become a very small minority in comparison to the immigrants.


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Icyshadow wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

The thing is, can Israel really risk letting them all in? Jews will become a minority in "their own country".

Not too long after, they'll either be the ones persecuted again, or driven out completely like they have usually been.

Europeans are becoming minorities in the nation they have held for ages, should they treat immigrants that way too?
I'm actually afraid of what will happen to us all when Europeans become a very small minority in comparison to the immigrants.

Best way to stop immigration....

Stop exploiting the countries the people come from.
Stop propping up non democratic governments
Forgive 3rd world debt.
Invest in infrastructure in these countries.

Make the places these people are coming from more desirable to live in than leave.

Qadira

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Hey, popping in again to replay so some of the comments saying that Israel cannot be both a Jewish and a democratic country at once. This is very true, and a source of great frustration for all of us who live here. From my point of view I can't stand the racism involved in the "Jewish" aspect of Israel, from other people's point of view they want Israel to be a real country of traditional Jew-isness. Some (quite a large number actualy) expressed a want to return to be a kingdom (like in the bible, with a religious king and all that), and scrap the entire "democracy" aspect.

(Most of the time an ethnic democracy can kind of work, given that over 95% of the citizens in that country are of that ethnicity. However that is far from the case in Israel which is why treating non Jews as 2nd rate citizens is just really unacceptable I think.)

The only problem is... Israel has to remain Jewish. I hate that, which is why I don't wish to live here and take part of it, but... the Jewish people need to have a country where they can count on the knowledge that the government will always be Jewish, where Jews will always be a majority. I am very moderate in my world views and I don't buy most of the "Jews are hated by everyone" propaganda that our government enjoy feeding us, but... My grandmother lost all of her family in the holocaust. My grandfather was banished from his country. I know many people who lost relatives to pogroms in russia. My parents, while living the the U.S (a rather advanced place with many liberals, or so I hear), always felt scorn from their surrounding and often regretted exposing their Jewish origin because it changed how people treated them for the worse.

Hate it as I much, I am terrified of a world where Israel is not dominated by Jewish, because that's a world where Jews are not as safe. I an not religious, not even traditional, I don't feel attached to anything Jewish... all of which wouldn't matter one bit to a hater. Without the power of a country with a strong military and a reputation of assassinating people who threat Jews... I would not feel nearly as safe. That is the sad truth.


cp wrote:

It was these various claims clashes that made the creation of a palestinian state impossible. If it weren't for the great bugaboo of Israel right now we would still be having these same kind of sectarian clashes that are occuring in lebanon, syria, iraq etc.

Um, what's the difference between sectarian violence between, say, Druze and Maronites and, let's say, Hebrew-speakers and Arabs?


Andrew R wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.
You Forgot About Poland!
Im pole and irish, that has to be bonus points somewhere

You gotta be kidding me. Wow.


Andrew R wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

The thing is, can Israel really risk letting them all in? Jews will become a minority in "their own country".

Not too long after, they'll either be the ones persecuted again, or driven out completely like they have usually been.

europeans are becoming minorities in the nation they have held for ages, should they treat immigrants that way too?

I keep hearing this, but I don't see numbers that support it, at least not in the same way with Japan, who is experiencing a very low rate of population growth.


Lord Snow wrote:

Hey, popping in again to replay so some of the comments saying that Israel cannot be both a Jewish and a democratic country at once. This is very true, and a source of great frustration for all of us who live here. From my point of view I can't stand the racism involved in the "Jewish" aspect of Israel, from other people's point of view they want Israel to be a real country of traditional Jew-isness. Some (quite a large number actualy) expressed a want to return to be a kingdom (like in the bible, with a religious king and all that), and scrap the entire "democracy" aspect.

(Most of the time an ethnic democracy can kind of work, given that over 95% of the citizens in that country are of that ethnicity. However that is far from the case in Israel which is why treating non Jews as 2nd rate citizens is just really unacceptable I think.)

The only problem is... Israel has to remain Jewish. I hate that, which is why I don't wish to live here and take part of it, but... the Jewish people need to have a country where they can count on the knowledge that the government will always be Jewish, where Jews will always be a majority. I am very moderate in my world views and I don't buy most of the "Jews are hated by everyone" propaganda that our government enjoy feeding us, but... My grandmother lost all of her family in the holocaust. My grandfather was banished from his country. I know many people who lost relatives to pogroms in russia. My parents, while living the the U.S (a rather advanced place with many liberals, or so I hear), always felt scorn from their surrounding and often regretted exposing their Jewish origin because it changed how people treated them for the worse.

Hate it as I much, I am terrified of a world where Israel is not dominated by Jewish, because that's a world where Jews are not as safe. I an not religious, not even traditional, I don't feel attached to anything Jewish... all of which wouldn't matter one bit to a hater. Without the power of a country with a strong military and a...

Interesting.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lord Snow wrote:
Hate it as I much, I am terrified of a world where Israel is not dominated by Jewish, because that's a world where Jews are not as safe. I an not religious, not even traditional, I don't feel attached to anything Jewish... all of which wouldn't matter one bit to a hater. Without the power of a country with a strong military and a reputation of assassinating people who threat Jews... I would not feel nearly as safe. That is the sad truth.

Wow... just wow. I'm speechless at this comment, assuming that it reads as you intend... which I think it does.


Mark Sweetman wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Hate it as I much, I am terrified of a world where Israel is not dominated by Jewish, because that's a world where Jews are not as safe. I an not religious, not even traditional, I don't feel attached to anything Jewish... all of which wouldn't matter one bit to a hater. Without the power of a country with a strong military and a reputation of assassinating people who threat Jews... I would not feel nearly as safe. That is the sad truth.
Wow... just wow. I'm speechless at this comment, assuming that it reads as you intend... which I think it does.

As much as I hate asking someone to put words in another's mouth, what do you think it means?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Freehold - it implies that Lord Snow would not feel safe anywhere in the whole world without a strong military in Israel who assassinates anyone that threatens them.

I can see his point if he's talking just about Israel... but he implies that a Jewish person living in say downtown New York, or suburban Sydney should feel the same.

Osirion

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I think you could read it that way - or in a way that say 'I know, if the country I live in suddenly turns crazy (like my home country did before and during WWII) I know my family and I can try to find shelter in at least one well defended country'.

I used to have trouble understanding that POV, but talking to holocaust survivors and their children during classes and later within the German Coordinating-Council for Christian-Jewish cooperation organisations helped me to gain a different perspective regarding a people that suffered through a history of hate and persecution.
This surely doesn't justify all means or makes Israel sacrosanct regarding criticism, but I find it understandable, that often jewish perspective on history, politics and personal security is traversed by fear, disillusion and bitterness (to a certain extend).


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

For clarity, it's mainly the assassinations aspect that freaks me out.

Osirion

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

There is a difference between the reputation and the assassination - I don't like either, but I understand the thought that makes people wish for the former ;-)

Silver Crusade

Lord Snow wrote:
rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Just as the resistance in WW II were terrorists, and Nazi Germany a sovereign country. Not that I'm comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.

I'd prefer it if you keep your indoctrination attempts off the Paizo boards. I think it's rude.


the truly terrorist are the USA government

Shadow Lodge

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Lord Snow wrote:
The only problem is... Israel has to remain Jewish. I hate that, which is why I don't wish to live here and take part of it, but... the Jewish people need to have a country where they can count on the knowledge that the government will always be Jewish, where Jews will always be a majority.

Horsefeathers.

This idea is racial discrimination. You want to take one genetically linked group of people and say that because of their race they deserve their own country. Try reading your statement with white in place of Jewish and see how it looks.

Yes, Jews have been pushed around for centuries. They were subject to the inquisition, tossed out of spain, and slaughtered in the holocaust. That sucks, but its not being Jewish that sucks its being human that sucks. People have been slaughtering the polish and invading the planes for centuries. They were slaughtered in world war II, not in the same fashion as the jews but still by the millions. So were russian POWs, and Rom. Ukranians were starved out en mass by the russians in holodomor. Irelands been putting up with English invasions that included slaughter and mass starvation because they weren't allowed to diversify their agriculture for englands planned economy. Peasants the world over have had weapons thrust at them and been ordered to die for people richer and more powerful than them.

Being human sucks. Its not going to get any better by doing onto others whats been done onto you.


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feytharn wrote:

I think you could read it that way - or in a way that say 'I know, if the country I live in suddenly turns crazy (like my home country did before and during WWII) I know my family and I can try to find shelter in at least one well defended country'.

I used to have trouble understanding that POV, but talking to holocaust survivors and their children during classes and later within the German Coordinating-Council for Christian-Jewish cooperation organisations helped me to gain a different perspective regarding a people that suffered through a history of hate and persecution.
This surely doesn't justify all means or makes Israel sacrosanct regarding criticism, but I find it understandable, that often jewish perspective on history, politics and personal security is traversed by fear, disillusion and bitterness (to a certain extend).

Well, it's one thing to understand the psychological motivation and another to condone the result.

First, having your own nation is no guarantee of security as many have found over the centuries. And founding that nation by driving out the existing inhabitants and then oppressing them for decades is not a good start.

Second, there are many persecuted peoples across the world. The Holocaust may have been a unique event, but only in it's scale and speed. Was it really of an entirely different order than the genocide in Rwanda? Or the treatment of Native Americans? Or African slavery? The Armenians? So many countless others?
Do we need to carve out separate nations for each oppressed minority? Displacing others in the process? Is that really a solution?
Or is it only needed for Jews? Why are they special?

The idea the only way a ethnic/religious/whatever group can be safe is to have their own country, powerful enough to hold off all their neighbors is not one that can extend to every group. In the end it only brings more war, conquest and oppression. Not safety.


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Lord Snow wrote:

Hey, popping in again to replay so some of the comments saying that Israel cannot be both a Jewish and a democratic country at once. This is very true, and a source of great frustration for all of us who live here. From my point of view I can't stand the racism involved in the "Jewish" aspect of Israel, from other people's point of view they want Israel to be a real country of traditional Jew-isness. Some (quite a large number actualy) expressed a want to return to be a kingdom (like in the bible, with a religious king and all that), and scrap the entire "democracy" aspect.

(Most of the time an ethnic democracy can kind of work, given that over 95% of the citizens in that country are of that ethnicity. However that is far from the case in Israel which is why treating non Jews as 2nd rate citizens is just really unacceptable I think.)

The only problem is... Israel has to remain Jewish. I hate that, which is why I don't wish to live here and take part of it, but... the Jewish people need to have a country where they can count on the knowledge that the government will always be Jewish, where Jews will always be a majority. I am very moderate in my world views and I don't buy most of the "Jews are hated by everyone" propaganda that our government enjoy feeding us, but... My grandmother lost all of her family in the holocaust. My grandfather was banished from his country. I know many people who lost relatives to pogroms in russia. My parents, while living the the U.S (a rather advanced place with many liberals, or so I hear), always felt scorn from their surrounding and often regretted exposing their Jewish origin because it changed how people treated them for the worse.

Hate it as I much, I am terrified of a world where Israel is not dominated by Jewish, because that's a world where Jews are not as safe. I an not religious, not even traditional, I don't feel attached to anything Jewish... all of which wouldn't matter one bit to a hater. Without the power of a country with a strong military and a...

Thanks for the insider's view on things, and I wish Israel all the best.

What with the way history has been, I can't blame you, though, for being terrified of a world without a homeland.


Freehold DM wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.
You Forgot About Poland!
Im pole and irish, that has to be bonus points somewhere
You gotta be kidding me. Wow.

Actually being both Polish and Irish would be quite easy in Britain, especially England. There are significant Irish and Polish communities and since both have significant Catholic backgrounds they tend to mix at Catholic churches. Admittedly Polish communities sometimes have sufficient numbers to have their own chaplain and one or more Polish-language Masses each week but even then they mix with the rest of the parish on social occasions and major festivals and go to the same Catholic schools where those are available. So not really very much "wow" in my part of the world. I don't know where you are though.

Wandered a bit off-topic - sorry.

Osirion

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Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
thejeff wrote:


Well, it's one thing to understand the psychological motivation and another to condone the result.

I agree, and I hope that came across in my post.

thejeff wrote:


First, having your own nation is no guarantee of security as many have found over the centuries. And founding that nation by driving out the existing inhabitants and then oppressing them for decades is not a good start.

I agree, but I understand that someone feels more secure having a 'retreat nation' - As for the second part: I don't think Israels handling of the Palestinians is OK, I don't think Israel is 'the country given to the Jews by God', I do think Israel has its share in the violent troubles holding the middle east in its grip.

thejeff wrote:


Second, there are many persecuted peoples across the world. The Holocaust may have been a unique event, but only in it's scale and speed. Was it really of an entirely different order than the genocide in Rwanda? Or the treatment of Native Americans? Or African slavery? The Armenians? So many countless others?
Do we need to carve out separate nations for each oppressed minority? Displacing others in the process? Is that really a solution?
Or is it only needed for Jews? Why are they special?

The idea the only way a ethnic/religious/whatever group can be safe is to have their own country, powerful enough to hold off all their neighbors is not one that can extend to every group. In the end it...

Nothing makes the Jews special among those persecuted people - but I am German and I had plenty of chances to talk to Jews, learn about them and their perspective (individual perspectives, really), something I can't say for any of the other groups. I agree, giving every religious, ethnic, cultural, sportive, hobbyist group their own country isn't the way to go, but I do understand if members of those groups desire a nation of their own. (understand, not condone, agree with etc.)

Grand Lodge

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Lord Snow wrote:
The only problem is... Israel has to remain Jewish. I hate that, which is why I don't wish to live here and take part of it, but... the Jewish people need to have a country where they can count on the knowledge that the government will always be Jewish, where Jews will always be a majority. I am very moderate in my world views and I don't buy most of the "Jews are hated by everyone" propaganda that our government enjoy feeding us, but... My grandmother lost all of her family in the holocaust. My grandfather was banished from his country. I know many people who lost relatives to pogroms in russia. My parents, while living the the U.S (a rather advanced place with many liberals, or so I hear), always felt scorn from their surrounding and often regretted exposing their Jewish origin because it changed how people treated them for the worse.

Well that's not going to happen for these very basic reasons.

1. The non-Jewish citizen population of Israel is growing faster than the Jewish population.

2. A significant amount of Jews on the planet want nothing to do with the poltical state of Israel and aren't going to be moving there.

So unless they decide to build towards a future state where the majority of it's citizens become disenfranchised in the manner of what used to be the most hated state in Africa, or they go the ethnic cleansing route of distengrating Yougoslavia, then that's a sacred cow that's eventually going to be put out to pasture.

This is not the Middle East of the Bible or the Talmud, that country known as Israel/Judea ceased to exist more than two millennia ago. If I'm going to drag the Catholic Church kicking and screaming into the 21st century, Israel isn't getting a pass on the same treatment.


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Mark Sweetman wrote:

Freehold - it implies that Lord Snow would not feel safe anywhere in the whole world without a strong military in Israel who assassinates anyone that threatens them.

I can see his point if he's talking just about Israel... but he implies that a Jewish person living in say downtown New York, or suburban Sydney should feel the same.

I take strong exception to the notion that a nation must always be majority-X and X-governed or any local X minority can never, ever be safe. I understand where it comes from, though it's far less credible with every subsequent generation, but it's an absolute rejection of the notion of pluralist states.

Many European states expelled their Jewish populations in the middle ages. (A lot of those Jews ended up in then-tolerant, pluralistic Poland.) They did so because they believed Jews to be a kind of eternal fifth column that was some mix of terrorist and Satan. Their majorities, in their minds, could not be safe while Jews were around. The last such nationwide expulsion that I'm aware of is Ferdinand and Isabella's in 1492. (They also expelled the Muslims and ran the Inquisition to keep tabs on anyone who converted to escape expulsion.)

Now we hear of a Jewish state that must remain Jewish in population and government, permanently, in order for Jews to be safe. Anywhere in the world, even. Talk about reversing the polarities.

Qadira

Don't forget with assassins on tap to deal with threats. Don't forget that to the paranoid words are threats. and when the paranoid have assassins they don't mind using....

Qadira

KJL wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.
You Forgot About Poland!
Im pole and irish, that has to be bonus points somewhere
You gotta be kidding me. Wow.

Actually being both Polish and Irish would be quite easy in Britain, especially England. There are significant Irish and Polish communities and since both have significant Catholic backgrounds they tend to mix at Catholic churches. Admittedly Polish communities sometimes have sufficient numbers to have their own chaplain and one or more Polish-language Masses each week but even then they mix with the rest of the parish on social occasions and major festivals and go to the same Catholic schools where those are available. So not really very much "wow" in my part of the world. I don't know where you are though.

Wandered a bit off-topic - sorry.

Luckily my family came to america to the (at the time at least) mostly polish city of Hamtramick MI


Jewishness, is only an issue for the lunatic fringe (an incredibly insignificant part ofthe population) in Australia.... Infact the fringe would have Jews ranked well below Muslims, Asians, Australian Aboriginals, Catholics, Communists, Socialists, Greens, Gays, and Women as targets.

Even then if the fringe could be bothered (or have enough working neurones to formulate a plan in thier inbred bogan brains) taking any action against anything they hated - Jewish people are so far down the list it's an after thought.

Australian Jews have made an emense contribution to our country, our greatest general Sir John Monash and Sir Gustav Nossal one of our greatest scientists are Jewish.

Being an irreligious country we don't celebrate them for for their religion any more than we would celebrate John Curtin for being Catholic, its part of who you are but the contribution you make is the important thing.

The middle east is a surprisingly important part of Austalian history. In both world wars Australians fought their way from Egypt to Syria. In the first against the Turks and Germans, we took Gaza, Jeruslem and Demascus. In the second against the turncoat Vichy French, forcing them to surrender the Vichy held middle east and hand it over to the Free French.


Andrew R wrote:
KJL wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.
You Forgot About Poland!
Im pole and irish, that has to be bonus points somewhere
You gotta be kidding me. Wow.

Actually being both Polish and Irish would be quite easy in Britain, especially England. There are significant Irish and Polish communities and since both have significant Catholic backgrounds they tend to mix at Catholic churches. Admittedly Polish communities sometimes have sufficient numbers to have their own chaplain and one or more Polish-language Masses each week but even then they mix with the rest of the parish on social occasions and major festivals and go to the same Catholic schools where those are available. So not really very much "wow" in my part of the world. I don't know where you are though.

Wandered a bit off-topic - sorry.

Luckily my family came to america to the (at the time at least) mostly polish city of Hamtramick MI

Wow..interesting to see how families move throughout the years.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Jewishness, is only an issue for the lunatic fringe (an incredibly insignificant part ofthe population) in Australia.... Infact the fringe would have Jews ranked well below Muslims, Asians, Australian Aboriginals, Catholics, Communists, Socialists, Greens, Gays, and Women as targets.

Even then if the fringe could be bothered (or have enough working neurones to formulate a plan in thier inbred bogan brains) taking any action against anything they hated - Jewish people are so far down the list it's an after thought.

Australian Jews have made an emense contribution to our country, our greatest general Sir John Monash and Sir Gustav Nossal one of our greatest scientists are Jewish.

Being an irreligious country we don't celebrate them for for their religion any more than we would celebrate John Curtin for being Catholic, its part of who you are but the contribution you make is the important thing.

The middle east is a surprisingly important part of Austalian history. In both world wars Australians fought their way from Egypt to Syria. In the first against the Turks and Germans, we took Gaza, Jeruslem and Demascus. In the second against the turncoat Vichy French, forcing them to surrender the Vichy held middle east and hand it over to the Free French.

Also interesting. I know Australia has been quite a serious fighting force for some time, but I didn't know this part.


World War I

During the final offensive in September 1918, the two divisions of Australian mounted troops, as well as the 1st Light Car Patrol and No. 1 Squadron AFC, took part in Battle of Megiddo on 28 September 1918, a decisive British victory in which 70,000 Turkish soldiers were taken prisoner. The Desert Mounted Corps attacked across the Golan Heights, cutting off the north and north-west exits to Damascus on 29 September. On 30 September, the head of a column of 20,000 Turkish and German troops was annihilated by the Australian light horsemen as it attempted to withdraw west through the Barada Gorge. Australian troops were the first to enter Damascus, which fell on 1 October. Following an advance of 300 kilometres (190 mi), Aleppo was captured on 25 October. The Turkish government signed an armistice on 28 October 1918 and surrendered outright two days later.

World War II
On 10 July, as the Australian 21st Brigade was on the verge of entering Beirut, Dentz sought an armistice. At one minute past midnight on July 12, a ceasefire came into effect. To all intents and purposes, this ended the campaign and an armistice known as Armistice of Saint Jean d'Acre (also known as the "Convention of Acre") was signed on July 14 at the "Sidney Smith Barracks" on the outskirts of the city of Acre.

Both Moshe Dayan and Yitzahk Rabin fought alongside Australians in the campaign.


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My turn for a Musical Interlude since we've somehow gotten to the Australians in WWI


thejeff wrote:
My turn for a Musical Interlude since we've somehow gotten to the Australians in WWI

Shhh I am trying to distract everybody from the round and round conversation.


thejeff wrote:
My turn for a Musical Interlude since we've somehow gotten to the Australians in WWI

Musical Interludes are the shiznit!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
thejeff wrote:
My turn for a Musical Interlude since we've somehow gotten to the Australians in WWI
Musical Interludes are the shiznit!

I can play the game of Musical Interludes as well.


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Mark Sweetman wrote:

Freehold - it implies that Lord Snow would not feel safe anywhere in the whole world without a strong military in Israel who assassinates anyone that threatens them.

I can see his point if he's talking just about Israel... but he implies that a Jewish person living in say downtown New York, or suburban Sydney should feel the same.

Part of that is they're a people who have repeatedly targeted with violence with the perpetrators facing little to no repurcussions. In fact for 900 years it was a good way to acquire wealth.

Would you feel safe living in a place where your neighbor could kill you and your family and probably get away with it? Perhaps even be considered an upstanding citizen for doing so.

While I agree with you, the assassination thing is too much. But based on history I can empathize. There are still Nazi members who will probably die of old age without being brought to justice.

Qadira

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
The only problem is... Israel has to remain Jewish. I hate that, which is why I don't wish to live here and take part of it, but... the Jewish people need to have a country where they can count on the knowledge that the government will always be Jewish, where Jews will always be a majority.

Horsefeathers.

This idea is racial discrimination. You want to take one genetically linked group of people and say that because of their race they deserve their own country. Try reading your statement with white in place of Jewish and see how it looks.

Yes, Jews have been pushed around for centuries. They were subject to the inquisition, tossed out of spain, and slaughtered in the holocaust. That sucks, but its not being Jewish that sucks its being human that sucks. People have been slaughtering the polish and invading the planes for centuries. They were slaughtered in world war II, not in the same fashion as the jews but still by the millions. So were russian POWs, and Rom. Ukranians were starved out en mass by the russians in holodomor. Irelands been putting up with English invasions that included slaughter and mass starvation because they weren't allowed to diversify their agriculture for englands planned economy. Peasants the world over have had weapons thrust at them and been ordered to die for people richer and more powerful than them.

Being human sucks. Its not going to get any better by doing onto others whats been done onto you.

1) The idea of a country based on ethnicity is not racial discrimination, it is actually rather common in this world. On the grand scale of things the French are a people and the British are a people, and they don't want to share the same country, for example. You can see how the super liberal Europe is reacting to the Muslim refugees for proof that people seek to live with their own. The problem Israel had in that department is, as others point out, that unlike in France, the Jewish majority is not overwhelming here. If Israel would have been 90% Jews or more, the issue of ethnicity would barely ever be relevant - again, that's how things go in many countries in the world. U.S is different, yes, it's not an ethnic country. That's due to a unique history.

2) Many a people has suffered through history... but the Jewish people is the most ancient. I may not be aware of something here, but as far as I know no other people can trace it's history as a cohesive group so far back as Jews do. That means that in an ever shifting world there was always that group of strange people, living in their secluded communities, refusing to speak the local language or mingle with them in any way (even today, I am given some grief around here because my girlfriend is not Jewish). Sure at some times in history the Jewish people wasn't all that snobbish, but that didn't help any more because the idea of the Jew as the intimidating stranger is as rooted in the western world as any idea could be, I think.

Think about that for a moment. Jews have not been a nation (like the Polish or the Ukrainians you mentioned) for a very, VERY long time. They were spread, acting like A holes all around the world for generations, all while Christianity was spreading like wildfire - and Christianity has a great interest in portraying Jews in a negative manner. That leads to a very bad spot to be in - the people I happen to belong to is hated to a certain degree almost everywhere.

Just as an FWI, many people think that the atrocities that happened in WW2 were performed by the German people. That's wrong. Nearly every country in Europe cooperated willingly with rounding up the Jews and boarding them on the trains, and some took an even more active part. In Russia at the death pits, or at the ghettoes at Poland, even as far west as France... local communities were often the performers of some of the crimes against humanity there. That's more than just being on the loosing side of a war, that's seeing what people really think. My own grandfather was chased out of his childhood home with sticks and stones just for being Jewish, that was less about 50 years ago. Of course I'm afraid. This is not dogma, this is not victimizing myself, it's just a fact - without a Jewish Israel, I would fear for my safety.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

An interesting article - refers to Operation Cast Lead, but still relevant.

Qadira

Mark Sweetman wrote:

Freehold - it implies that Lord Snow would not feel safe anywhere in the whole world without a strong military in Israel who assassinates anyone that threatens them.

I can see his point if he's talking just about Israel... but he implies that a Jewish person living in say downtown New York, or suburban Sydney should feel the same.

OOOOkkkk, let's get some things in proportion here:

1) I would not feel threatened *everywhere* in the world, only in the western civilization or anywhere controlled by Muslims.

2) Israel doesn't "assassinate all who threatens them", but it has painstakingly built a reputation for having a long reach and an even longer memory - remember Munich?? Over the following 20 years, every single person who had to do with anything about that massacre was murdered. Shortly BEFORE the death of each of them, their families received flowers and a massage reading : "we don't forgive and never forget".
A more recent example of this is the killings of personal that have to do with the nuclear facilities in Iran (which Israel didn't claim responsibility for, but I kind of think it's obvious who did it), and the very recent assassination of one of the leaders of Hamas (a man responsible for more death than I would like to imagine).
The message is clear - it's "don't you even try". And yes, it makes me feel safer knowing that anyone even thinking about harming me because of my Jewish heritage is well aware of how my country responds to that kind of thing. It's violent, militaristic and grim... and I don't know if it's really necessary.... but is sure as hack makes me feel safer.

Qadira

Mark Sweetman wrote:
An interesting article - refers to Operation Cast Lead, but still relevant.

UUGhh... some of the points there are valid, but the first "BIG LIE" is just WAY off. As I have mentioned before, Hamas takes special care to build it's infrastructe in the most vulnerable civilian location for the purpose of making the IDF look bad when it's taking it down. Yes, civilian houses are being destoryed, yes, IDF "attacks" schools... but what diffrent option is there, when the school is sitting atop a hideout of Hamas operative, usualy with many armed missiles?

Besides, it's kinda stuipd to think that Israel has any reason to just randomly attack locations in Gaza... If Israel would have wanted it, Gaza could be wiped out in a manner of hours (take the bombings the air force performed on Beyrot during the 2009 war with HizbAllah for example, those air strikes can be devestating). Not only does the IDF not do anything like that, Israel provides food and electricity and water and medicine to Gaza (even now, during the war). If Israel had any wish to harm those there, sending men with guns to shoot at people would be stuipd, when it can just stop feeding the people there.

Now Casr Lead... that operation went bad in many ways. I don't believe it was any worse than, for example, the way the U.S army handles itself in Iraq or Afghansitan, becuse fighting small, suicidal groups of guriella combatantas in a densly populated urban area is really difficult for a large army to do, esp. if it dosen't wish to heart anyone that can be spared.

However this time it seems like we got better at it. In over 300 aerial strikes against Gaza, there are less than 50 dead. That's imprassive, since those missiles the airplanes shoot are VERY good at killing.

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