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Facts about the war in Israel


Off-Topic Discussions

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Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

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thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one. Simply labeling one side as "terrorist" because fighting a superior force out in the open is a good way to comit suicide not create any actual distinction.

As a legal distinction, Palestine is not a sovereign nation. The Palestinian territories have not claimed statehood or been recognized as such. And while Hamas was democratically elected, they've since split and fought with Fatah, leaving them only in control of the Gaza Strip.

Not that any of that really changes the moral situation.

They have claimed statehood. They've been denied it repeatedly.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
Note this first important distinction of this post - the war is NOT between Israelis and Palestinian, rather it's between a soverign country and a terrorist army.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one. Simply labeling one side as "terrorist" because fighting a superior force out in the open is a good way to comit suicide not create any actual distinction.

As a legal distinction, Palestine is not a sovereign nation. The Palestinian territories have not claimed statehood or been recognized as such. And while Hamas was democratically elected, they've since split and fought with Fatah, leaving them only in control of the Gaza Strip.

Not that any of that really changes the moral situation.

They have claimed statehood. They've been denied it repeatedly.

I believe Palestine did get accepted into the UNESCO, however, which we could guess tacitally recognizes it as a nation on some level. UNESCO membership has no binding effect on nationality, but it does imply that a Palestinian sovereignty has a considerable level of acceptance in the international community.


Icyshadow wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Why am I expecting Iran to nuke Jerusalem before Russia gets a chance?
$5 says Israel throws the first punch then claims they had to do it.

Somehow I can see Israel having more common sense than the Arabic countries, but that's just me I guess.

And really, a nuke on Israel would also affect the neighbouring countries, considering the radiation area and such.

And would immediately be followed by the destruction of most of Iran, by nuclear and conventional means. They would need to be suicidal to do it.

That doesn't mean that Israel won't make a conventional strike on Iran's facilities. Best estimates I've seen suggest that would only set Iran back a few years, drive the nuclear facilities even further underground and of course push tensions even higher. And then need to be repeated a couple years later.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

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Lord Snow wrote:
Well, while Hamas was elected in a democratic process, their method of rule is certainly not democratic - none of the vital democratic establishments are there (an opposition, for starters, or any realy seperation between the armed force and the govrement)

Those are not requirements for a democracy. The head of united states government is also commander in chief of the military.

Quote:
Other than that, there was only one other option except Hamas, which was Fatah, and both of them are terrorist forces that used terrorist tactics against Israel.

Huh. so their choices are two nearly identical groups that hate each other but largely espouse the same things....

Again, how is that NOT democracy?

Quote:
Why could only either of these groups could be elected? because they woulnd't allow any other group to organize and offer itself as an option.

Wouldn't allow how?

Quote:
That aside, Hamas is not acting like a govrement, it's acting like a group of terrorists. As I have mentioned in my opening posts, it's not only that Hamas is attacking Israeli civilians, it is using it's own people as meat shields.

Given how many people are crowded into the west bank and gaza strips its hard to imagine standing anywhere to shoot that you're not surrounded by a meat wall.

Quote:
That's the definiton of terrorising.

So flying helicopters in and blowing housing compounds to peices in the middle of the night so that people are afraid to sleep is different .. how? You think the Palestinians aren't living in constant terror, wondering if the next copter is going to bomb their house? If the next funeral/protest they attend will get them locked in indefinite detention?

Quote:
now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents.

It does not. But i really don't know what other possible response you could expect.

Quote:
When the Jews were rebelling agains the local British govrement 70 years ago, most of the struggle was realtivley "harmless" - blowing up bridges to make things more expansive for Britains, for example, but not blindly killing. The one time where Jews did an act of terror was blowing up the King David hotel - that was unspeakable and unforgiveable, and it's a mark of shame in the countrie's history. Nobody will claim there was any real justification for that.

The assassination of Lord Moyne

Assassination of Folke Bernadotte
The Deir Yassin massacre where villagers were paraded through the streets and then shot. 254 civilians killed, raped, and mutilated.
Driving a load of explosive into a police station
Attempted Bombing of Whitehall in Britain
An attempted Bombing in Paris
Another attempted bombing somewhere in france
Death threats against author Hugh Trevor-Roper, for portraying hitler as THE reason for the holocaust.
Cairo-Haifa train bombings, killing 35 soldiers and 40 civilians.

And before you claim that was just the Lehi group, Israel named a military medal after them and elected one of their leaders prime minister. Yitzhak Shamir

So no, I'm not really seeing a difference in tactics here. Its just what happens when a small force tries to take on an advanced mechanized military.

And since then? They've been land grabbing what little land they already forced the Palestinians onto, Carving it up into unsustainable little sections that functionally cannot have an economy.

Star Voter 2013

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Icyshadow wrote:
Well, Germany (during World War II but nor after it) had a different vision from the rest of Europe on how to "solve the Jew problem", which might explain why they didn't want to stay in Europe. Also, call me biased, but after all the crap Jews have had to go through in history (the inquisition being just one example among many), I say they should get their own country where they could at least be somewhat safe from such stuff happening again.

Afther so many years of tragedies I think the palestinian deserves their own country.


Nicos wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Well, Germany (during World War II but nor after it) had a different vision from the rest of Europe on how to "solve the Jew problem", which might explain why they didn't want to stay in Europe. Also, call me biased, but after all the crap Jews have had to go through in history (the inquisition being just one example among many), I say they should get their own country where they could at least be somewhat safe from such stuff happening again.
Afther so many years of tragedies I think the palestinian deserves their own country.

As said earlier, offers have been made but apparently not accepted.

@BigNorseWolf

Who said either side is fully innocent? Also, your last lines sound like anti-Israeli propaganda to me.

I've been to Israel myself and I have relatives living there. The local arabs are hardly as innocent as you claim.


Icyshadow wrote:

And where is there to leave for the jewish nowadays, huh?

Also, you should leave the lands stolen from the Native Americans.

This is assuming you live in the US, which is stolen property in a sense.

Who cares? Where is there for the gypsies or bohemians either?

If native Americans were shelling my house you bet your ass I'd leave.

Star Voter 2013

Icyshadow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Well, Germany (during World War II but nor after it) had a different vision from the rest of Europe on how to "solve the Jew problem", which might explain why they didn't want to stay in Europe. Also, call me biased, but after all the crap Jews have had to go through in history (the inquisition being just one example among many), I say they should get their own country where they could at least be somewhat safe from such stuff happening again.
Afther so many years of tragedies I think the palestinian deserves their own country.

As said earlier, offers have been made but apparently not accepted.

Awful offers I have to say.

I am sure taht If the case were excatly the opposite, the palestinian bullyng the israelis your opinion were very different.


Nicos wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Well, Germany (during World War II but nor after it) had a different vision from the rest of Europe on how to "solve the Jew problem", which might explain why they didn't want to stay in Europe. Also, call me biased, but after all the crap Jews have had to go through in history (the inquisition being just one example among many), I say they should get their own country where they could at least be somewhat safe from such stuff happening again.
Afther so many years of tragedies I think the palestinian deserves their own country.

As said earlier, offers have been made but apparently not accepted.

Awful offers I have to say.

I am sure that If the case were excatly the opposite, the palestinian bullyng the israelis your opinion were very different.

Of course it would, considering the jews and their LOOOOOONG history of being bullied by other people and religions.

Star Voter 2013

Icyshadow wrote:

And where is there to leave for the jewish nowadays, huh?

Also, you should leave the lands stolen from the Native Americans.

This is assuming you live in the US, which is stolen property in a sense.

So, to steal lands is perfectly fine I guess. I mean, if you are stronger and have a lot of resentment then why not?

Star Voter 2013

Icyshadow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Well, Germany (during World War II but nor after it) had a different vision from the rest of Europe on how to "solve the Jew problem", which might explain why they didn't want to stay in Europe. Also, call me biased, but after all the crap Jews have had to go through in history (the inquisition being just one example among many), I say they should get their own country where they could at least be somewhat safe from such stuff happening again.
Afther so many years of tragedies I think the palestinian deserves their own country.

As said earlier, offers have been made but apparently not accepted.

Awful offers I have to say.

I am sure that If the case were excatly the opposite, the palestinian bullyng the israelis your opinion were very different.

Of course it would, considering the jews and their LOOOOOONG history of being bullied by other people and religions.

I do not care about Jew or muslism. For me it does not matter if the agressor is Jew, gipsy, nazi or whatever.

The history of muslims do not justify terrorist attacks against civilians.The history of jew do not justify the actions of the israeli goverment.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

How many generations have to live on land their ancestors took from somebody else before it's actually theirs?

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

Icyshadow wrote:


@BigNorseWolf

Who said either side is fully innocent?

No one, including me, is saying that. I'm saying that there is no hero to root for here. Lord snow claimed that the jews didn't do much terrorism while fighting for independance, a claim I dispute with what i think is a fair bit of evidence.

Quote:
Also, your last lines sound like anti-Israeli propaganda to me.

Its true. Refute it or deal with it. If the facts sound anti Israeli then perhaps thats a reason to not be pro Israeli.

Quote:
I've been to Israel myself and I have relatives living there. The local arabs are hardly as innocent as you claim.

You have a severe problem discerning what was said from what was written.


Charlie Bell wrote:
How many generations have to live on land their ancestors took from somebody else before it's actually theirs?

Apparently you can never call a land your own. Someone will eventually take it by force and claim it as their own.

See for example the US (from the Native Americans), Israel (from the ancient Jewish), and Australia (from the Aboriginals).


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Icyshadow wrote:


Of course it would, considering the jews and their LOOOOOONG history of being bullied by other people and religions.

You act like you're the only ones. I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe. There are 15 million Jews worldwide and only half in Israel and yet the world political landscape revolves around you. Time to stop playing victim.

The offers for Palestinian statehood have been contingent on its giving up its right to have its own military. Israel would never consider such a deal, it's a non starter.


meatrace wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:


Of course it would, considering the jews and their LOOOOOONG history of being bullied by other people and religions.

You act like you're the only ones. I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe. There are 15 million Jews worldwide and only half in Israel and yet the world political landscape revolves around you. Time to stop playing victim.

The offers for Palestinian statehood have been contingent on its giving up its right to have its own military. Israel would never consider such a deal, it's a non starter.

Considering that the arabs are united in their hatred of the jews nowadays, it's no surprise why nobody would give Palestine its own military.

Also, am I playing a victim when I get the s*** beaten out of me by a neo-nazi? If your answer is yes, then you have really lost your grip on reality.


Icyshadow wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
How many generations have to live on land their ancestors took from somebody else before it's actually theirs?

Apparently you can never call a land your own. Someone will eventually take it from you by force and claim it as their own.

See for example the US (from the Native Americans), Israel (from the ancient Jewish), and Australia (from the Aboriginals).

But if you're Israel, you can claim it back as yours because your ancestors lived there 2000 years ago. Has any other religion/race/ethnicity ever pulled that off?


Just saying, there's a difference between playing victim and actually being one.

However, the civilians who do not want war are the ones who are the true victims.

This applies to both jewish and arabian civilians, of course. Though some of them do want war...


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meatrace wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:


Of course it would, considering the jews and their LOOOOOONG history of being bullied by other people and religions.

You act like you're the only ones. I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe. There are 15 million Jews worldwide and only half in Israel and yet the world political landscape revolves around you. Time to stop playing victim.

The offers for Palestinian statehood have been contingent on its giving up its right to have its own military. Israel would never consider such a deal, it's a non starter.

Not to mention the fragmented West Bank, due to settlements and the roads & checkpoints connecting them. No control over their airspace or borders. The offers have been jokes.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.

You Forgot About Poland!


Gorbacz wrote:
meatrace wrote:
I'm Irish. The kicking dogs of Europe.
You forgot about Poland!

Yeah, that I'm not going to deny.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

Let us not oversimplify so we can have this be about heroes and victims on either side.

Arafat blew it during the 90's when the best deal possible was on the table, and Netenyahu's saber rattling and refusal to address the settlement issue is feeding the fire.


ciretose wrote:

Let us not oversimplify so we can have this be about heroes and victims on either side.

Arafat blew it during the 90's when the best deal possible was on the table, and Netenyahu's saber rattling and refusal to address the settlement issue is feeding the fire.

I had hoped this discussion would stay with people knowing about the moral grey of the issue...

...but you just need to look at the posts above us now and see that we aren't going to get that anytime soon here.

The Exchange Dedicated Voter 2013

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

This is akin to saying any random group of 20 people can get together and expect recognition.

Israel recognizes the nations of Egypt, Jordan, and Syrian. And while there are hundreds of thousands of dispossessed- to call them Palestinians is not factual. Israel did not seize land from 'Palestinians'.

Quote:


A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one.

And the Palestinians do not meet meet that legal distinction.

Israel over time has made limited offers to try to establish a Palestinian state. Very few other countries would do that for peoples that seem inveterately hostile.

Quote:


Quote:
why has none of the other Arabian countries in the area help with a solution?
No country wants another poor destitute area added to its responsibility, especially when there's the possibility of israel taking the palastinias actions as the actions of say, Jordan. Jordan doesn't want to have to try to keep rockets out of the west bank. Jordan doesn't want to be invaded as a reprisal for said rockets.

No, what he is asking is why have no arab countries allowed these people to leave the refugee camps established in their nations and become citizens.

And the answer is because they are politically useful as is.

To the arabs the loss to the hands of the israelis was an embarassing shame, deeply burned into their psyche. And it is more important to recover those lands than to allow the people in the camps to lead useful and productive lives through naturalization.

So the camps are useful- as a tip of the spear: a place to recruit jihadists. A propaganda point: see how the poor 'palestinians' live.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

The real tragedy is that Palestinians are (ab)used by their buddies from anti-Israeli countries (remember kids, never tell an Iranian that he's an Arab if you want to walk home in one piece) who go great lengths to shout their case but very little to actually help, unless "helping" involves weapons and explosives. But money, hospitals, schools? Why, that won't help us get rid of the Little Devil and the Great Devil (U.S.)!

Star Voter 2013

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Icyshadow wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

Okay, so who'll be the first here to suggest that the solution to the problem is to kill all the jews and build Palestine instead? :D

I bet BigNorseWolf here would love the idea, considering he's apparently unaware of how racists and anti-semites work on a mental level.

No one here, including BNW, is going to suggest killing all the jews. Excepting people actively trolling.

Not liking Israel's policies is not anti-semitism.

I'm very tempted to flag this.

Saying that every jew ever who wants their own country is playing victim is anti-semitism, if not anti-Israeli.

I'm not seeing anything flag-worthy unless you want to needlessly censor the point I was trying to make with that joke.

So, it seems that htere is only to option

1) You fully support the israeli goverment no matter what they do, hothey doit and to whom they do it.

or

2) You want the death of al Jews.

the name of this is false dichotomy my friend.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

cp wrote:


Israel recognizes the nations of Egypt, Jordan, and Syrian. And while there are hundreds of thousands of dispossessed- to call them Palestinians is not factual. Israel did not seize land from 'Palestinians'.

So what, individuals don't have rights unless they're banded together by borders on a map that someone in europe drew up while in the bathtub?

Balderdash.

There is a group of people. We call them palastinians. Semantic arguments about what they are or aren't are completely irrelevant. They are people, they have rights, they are palastinians. So yes, israel seized land from Palestinians.

Whether you agree with that or not, the fact is they are a political unit (if not a sovereign country) now, with a democratically elected government.

Quote:


A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one.

And the Palestinians do not meet meet that legal distinction.

Israel over time has made limited offers to try to establish a Palestinian state. Very few other countries would do that for peoples that seem inveterately hostile.

Quote:
And the answer is because they are politically useful as is.

Thats part of the answer.

Quote:

To the arabs the loss to the hands of the israelis was an embarassing shame, deeply burned into their psyche. And it is more important to recover those lands than to allow the people in the camps to lead useful and productive lives through naturalization.

So the camps are useful- as a tip of the spear: a place to recruit jihadists. A propaganda point: see how the poor 'palestinians' live.

That isn't a sane plan. Most of the leaders in the area are sane, if sociopathic. (the same way any leader tends to behave when treating people like an abstract concept) I will buy an evil motivation here, but it has to be one that makes sense.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Lord Snow wrote:
now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents.

Everything that you've said could have been said about the American Revolution and you'd be 100 percent correct.

1. Militarily, the colonies would have had no chance against defeating Britain in the long run. The Revolution was literaly won, not by George Washington's Army, although their successes were necessary, it was won by Ben Franklin's diplomatic victory at bringing France, Englands arch-rival for Hemispheric domination to the playing field. (Yes my fellow Americans, we owe France for the very fact of our country's existence. Remember that the next time you scarf down your "Freedom Fries".)

2. Both sides committed atrocities against innocents. The revolution was for a good period time a minority option among the colonists, the majority wanting to exercise their rights as Englishmen and work their griefs out through the legal process. Many of these Loyalists would find themselves disposessed by the revolutionaries and forced to flee to Canada.

Innocence is among the first casualties of warfare and after a conflict this prolonged, I don't think that either side can play that card. That said it takes two to tango and this conflict won't be resolved unless both can commit to doing so. And it's not going to happen if there are Jews in Israel who insist on treating the West Bank as conquered territory that they can take possession of as they see fit, being allowed to settle on contested land.


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LazarX wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents.
Innocence is among the first casualties of warfare and after a conflict this prolonged, I don't think that either side can play that card. That said it takes two to tango and this conflict won't be resolved unless both can commit to doing so. And it's not going to happen if there are Jews in Israel who insist on treating the West Bank as conquered territory that they can take possession of as they see fit, being allowed to settle on contested land.

It's very unclear to me how you could stop foreign civilians from settling on your land without being willing to use force to stop them. Most states have a sufficient monopoly on force to arrest and deport rather than having to just shoot. The Israeli settlers are often heavily armed and supported by Israeli military if attacked. The Palestinian Authority cannot just send police to arrest them and deport them back to Israel.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents.
Innocence is among the first casualties of warfare and after a conflict this prolonged, I don't think that either side can play that card. That said it takes two to tango and this conflict won't be resolved unless both can commit to doing so. And it's not going to happen if there are Jews in Israel who insist on treating the West Bank as conquered territory that they can take possession of as they see fit, being allowed to settle on contested land.
It's very unclear to me how you could stop foreign civilians from settling on your land without being willing to use force to stop them. Most states have a sufficient monopoly on force to arrest and deport rather than having to just shoot. The Israeli settlers are often heavily armed and supported by Israeli military if attacked. The Palestinian Authority cannot just send police to arrest them and deport them back to Israel.

No where did I say that this was their failing. Israel is the major player in this problem, but a large chunk of modern blame goes to the United States which completely blew the ball in this round by first ignoring, then doing their best to sabotage the democratic processes for the Palestinean elections. As before, their actions served to cripple the moderates and leave the field open for Hamas to secure a legitimate electoral victory.


Icyshadow wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Let us not oversimplify so we can have this be about heroes and victims on either side.

Arafat blew it during the 90's when the best deal possible was on the table, and Netenyahu's saber rattling and refusal to address the settlement issue is feeding the fire.

I had hoped this discussion would stay with people knowing about the moral grey of the issue...

...but you just need to look at the posts above us now and see that we aren't going to get that anytime soon here.

I had almost forgotten about this. Your thoughts, icyshadow?


cp wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. Israel's refusal to recognize this isn't helping.

This is akin to saying any random group of 20 people can get together and expect recognition.

Israel recognizes the nations of Egypt, Jordan, and Syrian. And while there are hundreds of thousands of dispossessed- to call them Palestinians is not factual. Israel did not seize land from 'Palestinians'.

Quote:


A sovereign nation is a legal distinction, not a moral one.

And the Palestinians do not meet meet that legal distinction.

Israel over time has made limited offers to try to establish a Palestinian state. Very few other countries would do that for peoples that seem inveterately hostile.

Quote:


Quote:
why has none of the other Arabian countries in the area help with a solution?
No country wants another poor destitute area added to its responsibility, especially when there's the possibility of israel taking the palastinias actions as the actions of say, Jordan. Jordan doesn't want to have to try to keep rockets out of the west bank. Jordan doesn't want to be invaded as a reprisal for said rockets.

No, what he is asking is why have no arab countries allowed these people to leave the refugee camps established in their nations and become citizens.

And the answer is because they are politically useful as is.

To the arabs the loss to the hands of the israelis was an embarassing shame, deeply burned into their psyche. And it is more important to recover those lands than to allow the people in the camps to lead useful and productive lives through naturalization.

So the camps are useful- as a tip of the spear: a place to recruit jihadists. A propaganda point: see how the poor 'palestinians' live.

Hnn. As usual, good, ugly points made.

The Exchange

@BigNorseWolf,

Lehi was a rather fringe group in pre-Israel days, and while their actions are unforgiveable, they do not reflect the way most Zionists viewed the world at the time and it certainly does not reflect most Israeli's today.

Note that this is also true about Hamas - many (I'd say most) of the people in Gaza just want to feed their children and live a quite life. However Hamas and several other groups (all of them part of larger, international organizations) are operationg from within Gaza, making the trapped people in there victims.

Now, you mentioned that in such a highly populated area as Gaza, NOT shooting from somebody's backyard is impossible. That's true and unrelated to reality. Hamas is intentionaly shooting from the most sensitive locations - during the previous war, IDF soldiers had to disarm mines and booby traps set for them on main streets (Hamas planting them there knowing very well that anyone might trip them on accident), and many times Hamas shoots from public schools. As I mentioned before they also have a habit of keeping civilians nearby a shooting squad (at gun point) to make IDF scoof at wiping the firing squad out (because the price would be killing civilians). That's using meatshields, not just being close to someont when you shot because there's not a lot of room.

As a general point, look at the irrational mentality of both sides of the conflict. In Israel, the death of any soldier is considerd a great tragedy (most soldiers are very young). Israel even went as far as trading more than a thousand war criminals (Hamas operatives) in exchange for a single prisoner of war (Gilaad Shalit, you might have heard of him). It's really not hard to discren who puts a higher value on human life.

Of course all while that is happening some A holes here in Israel see it s their sacred mission to creep up on what little room is left for the Palestinian people, even as they know that their actions are promoting war and death on both sides. And nobody has the political power to stop them.
It's important to know that those people are not the ones being bombarded by missiles, it's about 2 million people who live anywhere between Tel Aviv and the surroundings of Be'er Sheva.


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LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:


It's very unclear to me how you could stop foreign civilians from settling on your land without being willing to use force to stop them. Most states have a sufficient monopoly on force to arrest and deport rather than having to just shoot. The Israeli settlers are often heavily armed and supported by Israeli military if attacked. The Palestinian Authority cannot just send police to arrest them and deport them back to Israel.
No where did I say that this was their failing. Israel is the major player in this problem, but a large chunk of modern blame goes to the United States which completely blew the ball in this round by first ignoring, then doing their best to sabotage the democratic processes for the Palestinean elections. As before, their actions served to cripple the moderates and leave the field open for Hamas to secure a legitimate electoral victory.

Yeah, I wasn't so much trying to contradict you as using your post as a jumping off point for a related thought.

If I remember those elections correctly there weren't really any moderates and the Palestinians weren't voting for Hamas because they were the more anti-Israel party. They were largely voting on internal issues. Fatah's blatant corruption and Hamas's extensive social work and good government credentials.
Hamas won much bigger than expected or than they were prepared for. They offered a power sharing deal, IIRC, but that fell through. The US and Israel refused to have anything to do with a Hamas led Palestine and backed Fatah. Essentially a civil war erupted leaving Hamas in control of Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank. I suspect that helped strengthen the militants in Hamas and weaken the civil side that actually won the election in the first place.


Lord Snow wrote:
As a general point, look at the irrational mentality of both sides of the conflict. In Israel, the death of any soldier is considerd a great tragedy (most soldiers are very young). Israel even went as far as trading more than a thousand war criminals (Hamas operatives) in exchange for a single prisoner of war (Gilaad Shalit, you might have heard of him). It's really not hard to discren who puts a higher value on human life.

OTOH, look at the results. Compare the death toll on both sides. If Hamas is really trying to kill as many Israelis as possible and Israel trying to minimize civilian casualties, they're both doing a lousy job.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

thejeff,
That's not a fair comparison. Israel has the military power to level Gaza and kill everyone living there. Haams is trying its hardest to kill Israelis, whoever they are, with pretty much unaimed rockets. The rockets are often shot down by Israeli air defences which further reduces the Israeli casualties. Israel COULD kill many more people than it does, Hamas probably couldn't kill that many more. That does speak to the IDF restraining itself, even if it is far less than perfect.

The problem is that an Israel in 1967 borders is not viable from a security perspective, while a Palestine within the current Occupied Territories is not viable from an economic one. Hamas refuses to even recognise Israel exists. I can't really see how a negotiation could start until that condition was met. When the UK dealt with the IRA, there weren't conditions except for a ceasefire. The conditions were dealt with during the negotiations. Israel and the Palestinians (which has to include Hamas) need to negotiate, but having a partner that agrees you should be allowed to exist is a prerequisite for negotioations.

However, Israel has to decide if it wishes to remain Jewish, remain dmeocratic or be greater Israel. It cannot be all three as it seems to be trying to now.

I don't think there's actually a solution at the current time. Both sides are too entrenched in their positions. It will take two parties far braver than the current leadership to move things forward.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

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Lord Snow wrote:

@BigNorseWolf,

Lehi was a rather fringe group in pre-Israel days, and while their actions are unforgiveable, they do not reflect the way most Zionists viewed the world at the time and it certainly does not reflect most Israeli's today.

As I said, that argument doesn't hold when you elect the former leader of Lehi to be your prime minister and hand out a medal for service in founding israel under Lehi.

Quote:
Note that this is also true about Hamas - many (I'd say most) of the people in Gaza just want to feed their children and live a quite life. However Hamas and several other groups (all of them part of larger, international organizations) are operationg from within Gaza, making the trapped people in there victims.

And why are they trapped? Because israel took their land without giving them citizenship, won't issue them passports so they can leave, and egypt and jordan don't want them.

If i come down harder on israel than the palastinians its because israel could theoretically end the conflict with the stroke of a pen.

Quote:
Now, you mentioned that in such a highly populated area as Gaza, NOT shooting from somebody's backyard is impossible. That's true and unrelated to reality.

Well, lets look at the alternatives.

You fire from an abandoned highrise, you take a laser guided missile to the face.

You ask the home owner for permission to use their house. IDF will arrest them, lock them up and throw away the key.

Quote:
Israel even went as far as trading more than a thousand war criminals (Hamas operatives) in exchange for a single prisoner of war (Gilaad Shalit, you might have heard of him). It's really not hard to discren who puts a higher value on human life.

A thousand war criminals? I have a hard time believing that Palestinians war criminal to Israeli death ratio is that bad.

You say you want to end the cycle but thats not going to happen as long as anyone on the other side is a war criminal.

Quote:
Of course all while that is happening some A holes here in Israel see it s their sacred mission to creep up on what little room is left for the Palestinian people

Its not even that tiny sliver of land known as the west bank is too small

mappy

Its that israel runs most of it, and has it divided up with roads palastinians aren't allowed on and areas around settlements that palastinians need to go through roadblocks to get to. The remaining areas aren't large enough individually to support a walmart, much less a functioning economy.

Quote:
even as they know that their actions are promoting war and death on both sides. And nobody has the political...

Israel is running into so many problems not merely because it is trying to exist, but because it is trying to exist as a jewish state. It could quite easily offer the rest of the palastinians israeli citizenship, but that would mean handing them the ability to simply out vote Israel out of existance as a jewish state in 50 odd years.


Paul Watson wrote:

thejeff,

That's not a fair comparison. Israel has the military power to level Gaza and kill everyone living there. Haams is trying its hardest to kill Israelis, whoever they are, with pretty much unaimed rockets. The rockets are often shot down by Israeli air defences which further reduces the Israeli casualties. Israel COULD kill many more people than it does, Hamas probably couldn't kill that many more. That does speak to the IDF restraining itself, even if it is far less than perfect.

Agreed that it's not a fair comparison. Neither is Israel puts a higher value on human life because they were willing to trade "more than a thousand war criminals (Hamas operatives) in exchange for a single prisoner of war. That also says as much about the disparity in power (Israel being able to take far more prisoners) as about the value either side places on human life.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

thejeff,

That's not a fair comparison. Israel has the military power to level Gaza and kill everyone living there. Haams is trying its hardest to kill Israelis, whoever they are, with pretty much unaimed rockets. The rockets are often shot down by Israeli air defences which further reduces the Israeli casualties. Israel COULD kill many more people than it does, Hamas probably couldn't kill that many more. That does speak to the IDF restraining itself, even if it is far less than perfect.

Agreed that it's not a fair comparison. Neither is Israel puts a higher value on human life because they were willing to trade "more than a thousand war criminals (Hamas operatives) in exchange for a single prisoner of war. That also says as much about the disparity in power (Israel being able to take far more prisoners) as about the value either side places on human life.

You are correct. I misread the intent of your argument.


Lord Snow wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

"now you may say that Hamas is so outmatched by the IDF that they cannot hope to win an actual confrontation, meaning that they have to find other ways to fight. That's 100% true, and dosen't in any way justify shooting at innocents. When the Jews were rebelling agains the local British govrement 70 years ago, most of the struggle was realtivley "harmless" - blowing up bridges to make things more expansive for Britains, for example, but not blindly killing. The one time where Jews did an act of terror was blowing up the King David hotel - that was unspeakable and unforgiveable, and it's a mark of shame in the countrie's history. Nobody will claim there was any real justification for that."

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ.

Yes, Lehi did exist... and for all intents and purposes, it was a terrorist group. However they were a fringe group of extremists, and they didn't have nearly as much influence as Hamas has in Gaza. There were Lehi, Palmahc and Etzel. of the three, Etzel was the least violent and, when what Israelis call "the war for indapendance" came about in 1948, it was Etzel that managed it and later combined with Palmach to creatue what is now known as the IDF.

I didn't know about many of the things Lehi did, only that they were a bunch of monsters... and it's not like the Jews are "good guys" in this story. All I'm saying is that attacking civilians is as close as anything in this planet can come to being "evil", and while the IDF is making HUGE efforts to avoid that, Hamas is doing anything in it's (very limited) power ro ensure it happens to both Palestenians and Israelis.

Ten hours and eighty something posts later, it looks like a lot of the ground I would have wanted to cover has already been, um, covered.

I am just glad that you have backed away from the patently false claim that the creation of the state of Israel was accompanied by only one terrorist act.


Gorbacz wrote:

The real tragedy is that Palestinians are (ab)used by their buddies from anti-Israeli countries (remember kids, never tell an Iranian that he's an Arab if you want to walk home in one piece) who go great lengths to shout their case but very little to actually help, unless "helping" involves weapons and explosives. But money, hospitals, schools? Why, that won't help us get rid of the Little Devil and the Great Devil (U.S.)!

Well, it goes a lot deeper than that. Off of the top of my head, the two largest massacres of Palestinians were the Black September massacre carried out by the Jordanian government and the Sabra and Shatila massacres carried out by Christian Lebanese Arabs--although the latter were acting as auxiliaries for Israel.

This is only surprising if one accepts the lies of pan-Arabic nationalism (or, even worse, Islamic fundamentalism). The various colonels, mullahs and sheikhs that have been propped up by the Western powers over the last 50 or so years care as little for the Palestinians as they do for their "own" people. Seeing how many Arabs and other ethnicities have been murdered by the Ba'athists, Phalangists, Nasserites, et. al. over the years, I can't see how this is much of a shocker to anyone.

But that doesn't in any way excuse the crimes of the Zionist apartheid state whose aim, all the way back to Herzl and Jabotinsky, was the creation of a homogenous Jewish nation which is necessarily predicated on the expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs. The bantustans that have been created in the Occupied Territories are, essentially, a compromise between messy reality and this vision of ethnic cleansing as nation-building, although the idea of kicking them all out still pops up now and again, mostly in Likud circles (Netanyahu during the first Intifada, IIRC), but certainly not limited to them (Tzipi Livni, if Condoleeza Rice's memoirs or al-Jazeera's Palestine Papers are to be believed).


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:


But that doesn't in any way excuse the crimes of the Zionist apartheid state whose aim, all the way back to Herzl and Jabotinsky, was the creation of a homogenous Jewish nation which is necessarily predicated on the expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs. The bantustans that have been created in the Occupied Territories are, essentially, a compromise between messy reality and this vision of ethnic cleansing as nation-building, although the idea of kicking them all out still pops up now and again, mostly in Likud circles (Netanyahu during the first Intifada, IIRC), but certainly not limited to them (Tzipi Livni, if Condoleeza Rice's memoirs or al-Jazeera's Palestine Papers are to be believed).

And by Israeli apologists asking why the Arab nations don't just take all the Palestinians in to complete the ethnic cleansing.

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