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Mythic Spell Discussion


Player Feedback

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hi Everyone, I thought I'd make a new thread to discuss about the different mythic spells.

First of all, I was quite pleased and impressed but i've noticed a few things that made me twitch a little... so here I go:

Mythic Scorching Ray:
I really find it quite great. A good boost to damage, possibility to irgnore fire resistances, but... Why treat immunity to fire as resistance 20?

I mean... each ray does 6d6, so the maximum damage you can get from a single ray against a creature immune to fire would be 16 fire damage, and the average would be... 1 fire damage (21 average - 20 fire resist).

Yes, the spell is really cool, but it seems to me that it would benefit a lot from a greater option that can allow you to ignore the fire immunity.

Greater Mythic Color Spray:
I really like the addition, but it seems to me that the greater version is not that much useful (unless you are a oracle with the Heaven Mystery).

If we consider that you have 1/2 of your class levels as tiers, at 6th level you can affect creatures up to 8HD.
At 10th level, the spell affect creatures up to 10HD.
And after your 10th level, you will only be able to affect creatures of an HD inferior to yours, rendering the mythic spell useless (and it costs 3 mythic points to cast that spell in its greater version).

It sure seems to me to be a waste of Mythic points... You could probably cast a regular spell that would kill all of those ennemies without spending a single mythic point. Oh... And let's not forget that color spray is a 1-st level spell, with a 1st level spell DC. Yes i know, it will benefit of the +2 to its DC, but those 10+HD creatures should not problem saving from it.

Endless Power Path Ability:
Once again a very cool ability, I know it's not a mythic spell, but it does come with a few questions associated with spells...

So, this ability gives you the opportunity to make unlimited magic missile, cure light wounds or even unlimited Intensified Empowered Shocking grasp and fireballs...

One important aspect of the game is I think the limitation about healing yourself and your allies. Becoming mythic already greatly improves your recovery ability with Recuperation, but to have unlimited cure light wounds, seems a bit too powerful, rendering a lot of items and one of the biggest limitation of an adventurer party...

So here are a few things to think about... I know I haven't tested it all out yet, but I thought it might be useful to share that with all of you, so everyone can add some other things to test out and then post their gaming experience around it.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Thanks for the thoughts.. I am looking at all of these abilities for one reason or another.

I am moving this to the Player Feedback Forum.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts.. I am looking at all of these abilities for one reason or another.

I am moving this to the Player Feedback Forum.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Oh and I forgot something about the endless power ability. The classes that prepares spells benefit a lot more of the ability than a spontaneous caster.

Let's say a high level wizard can cast six 1st,2nd and 3rd level spells (which is a normal situation, High int, bonus spells from schools, etc.).
Each day he can chose 6 spells of each of these levels and cast them any number of time.
A spontaneous caster has a minimum of 6 different spells of these levels (but you can easily go up to 7-8).

Now... the edge that the spontaneous caster had over the character who prepared spells was that he can chose which spells he cast at the time of the casting and that he can cast those spells more times per day.

Now they both can cast these spells any number of times per day, so one of the edge of the spontaneous caster just disapeared for those spells.

The wizard now can choose around 6 differents spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 differents spells he can chose to cast.

So with the current wording, the wizard gains a lot more than a spontaneous caster right now, since he keeps his flexibility and gains the edge of a sorcerer for these level of spells.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Darkorin wrote:
The wizard now can choose around 6 differents spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 differents spells he can chose to cast.

The wizard can choose around 10 different spells of a given level if he has a ring of wizardry.

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Epic Meepo wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
The wizard now can choose around 6 differents spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 differents spells he can chose to cast.
The wizard can choose around 10 different spells of a given level if he has a ring of wizardry.

Well I was not taking into account some items... I mean, let's not forget that some item allows the wizard to switch a spell he prepared to any spell from the same school... (Which would mean that with Endless Power, a wizard could cast all 1st-3rd lvl spells of a single school)


Mythic contagion (p.28) does not have improved combat utility. However, if the Fortitude save for contagiousness is based on the spell and not the particular disease then contagion could maybe be used to soften a dungeon.

Greater mythic contagion could also potentially soften up a dungeon, but appears to be more of a spell for villains rather than PCs given the collateral damage. I'm curious if there are going to be other mythic spells with a 1-mile radius.


I think the idea behind some of the mythic spells was to duplicate uses you might have read about/seen in movies. How iconic (or mythic, I suppose) is it for an evil spellcaster to cause an entire town to suffer from disease? Or a wizard shaping the earth around them in mere seconds? They may not be the most useful for players, but they're still awesome abilities.


I've said this elsewhere, but Greater Mythic Meteor Swarm probably needs to be nerfed a bit. If you maximize that spell and place it so that someone gets hit with both the flame trails and all four explosions it can around 300 points of damage... if you make the save for half. It gets worse when you start adding in other abilities to boost the damage.

I think the explosion damage is good, but you might want to make it so that something can't get hit by both the flame trails and the explosion.


Some of the Greater spell versions need work, as I mentioned in another thread.

Compare Greater Color Spray to Greater Fireball. Color Spray allows you (basically) blind, then stun a creature for 1 round (because it's HD is likely higher than the limit).

Greater Fireball incinerates everything in an 80ft diameter sphere.

Both spells cost 3 Mythic Power.

Or you look at Greater Magic Missile which shoots up to 10 missiles at any target in sight, and those missiles ignore shield spells, spell resistance, immunity to magic, and deals 2d4+1 points of damage per missile.

This is of course, before people start tossing on feats like toppling spell, dazing spell etc.


How do people feel about Mythic Mage armour vs Enduring Armor ?

Seems until you've got 8th level spells Mythic Mage armor is better or on par at +6


Darkorin wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
The wizard now can choose around 6 different spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 different spells he can chose to cast.
The wizard can choose around 10 different spells of a given level if he has a ring of wizardry.
Well I was not taking into account some items... I mean, let's not forget that some item allows the wizard to switch a spell he prepared to any spell from the same school... (Which would mean that with Endless Power, a wizard could cast all 1st-3rd lvl spells of a single school)

Honestly as good as that sounds you need to be 9th Mythic Tier and will probably be throwing around 8th maybe even 9th level spells

Giving a caster who can throw around 8th an 9th level spell infinite level 1-3 spells is going to make little difference to their overall power.


Phasics wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
The wizard now can choose around 6 different spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 different spells he can chose to cast.
The wizard can choose around 10 different spells of a given level if he has a ring of wizardry.
Well I was not taking into account some items... I mean, let's not forget that some item allows the wizard to switch a spell he prepared to any spell from the same school... (Which would mean that with Endless Power, a wizard could cast all 1st-3rd lvl spells of a single school)

Honestly as good as that sounds you need to be 9th Mythic Tier and will probably be throwing around 8th maybe even 9th level spells

Giving a caster who can throw around 8th an 9th level spell infinite level 1-3 spells is going to make little difference to their overall power.

Agreed. I'm more concerned about Enduring blessings and its many many applications.


Phasics wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
The wizard now can choose around 6 different spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 different spells he can chose to cast.
The wizard can choose around 10 different spells of a given level if he has a ring of wizardry.
Well I was not taking into account some items... I mean, let's not forget that some item allows the wizard to switch a spell he prepared to any spell from the same school... (Which would mean that with Endless Power, a wizard could cast all 1st-3rd lvl spells of a single school)

Honestly as good as that sounds you need to be 9th Mythic Tier and will probably be throwing around 8th maybe even 9th level spells

Giving a caster who can throw around 8th an 9th level spell infinite level 1-3 spells is going to make little difference to their overall power.

Consider the fact that you can apply tons of buffs to the party ahead of time if you so desire. For instance, you now have enough Resist Energy to give the entire party Resistance 30 to every element.

Remember, as you are gaining in Mythic Tiers, at 2nd, tier and every even tier afterward, you can increase an ability score by +2. A Wizard that focuses on raising his Intelligence above all other ability scores, would have about a 42 Intelligence by 8th Tier. That's 4 extra spells of 1st - 3rd level for a total of 8 spells of each level.

Think of every buff to you could apply to people with those spells. Every player gets Invisibility, every player gets Resist Energy, every player gets Stoneskin, every player gets Heroism, and so on and so on.

This isn't even taking into account Rings of Wizardry. 16 different 3rd level spells that I can cast all day long? Pfft, I could beat more powerful casters by simply overwhelming them with spells. Hell, I could ready Dispel Magic and simply outlast them in spells.


Tels wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
The wizard now can choose around 6 different spells of these levels each day. The Sorcerer has around 6 different spells he can chose to cast.
The wizard can choose around 10 different spells of a given level if he has a ring of wizardry.
Well I was not taking into account some items... I mean, let's not forget that some item allows the wizard to switch a spell he prepared to any spell from the same school... (Which would mean that with Endless Power, a wizard could cast all 1st-3rd lvl spells of a single school)

Honestly as good as that sounds you need to be 9th Mythic Tier and will probably be throwing around 8th maybe even 9th level spells

Giving a caster who can throw around 8th an 9th level spell infinite level 1-3 spells is going to make little difference to their overall power.

Consider the fact that you can apply tons of buffs to the party ahead of time if you so desire. For instance, you now have enough Resist Energy to give the entire party Resistance 30 to every element.

Remember, as you are gaining in Mythic Tiers, at 2nd, tier and every even tier afterward, you can increase an ability score by +2. A Wizard that focuses on raising his Intelligence above all other ability scores, would have about a 42 Intelligence by 8th Tier. That's 4 extra spells of 1st - 3rd level for a total of 8 spells of each level.

Think of every buff to you could apply to people with those spells. Every player gets Invisibility, every player gets Resist Energy, every player gets Stoneskin, every player gets Heroism, and so on and so on.

This isn't even taking into account Rings of Wizardry. 16 different 3rd level spells that I can cast all day long? Pfft, I could beat more powerful casters by simply overwhelming them with spells. Hell, I could ready Dispel Magic and simply outlast them in spells.

consider that resist 30 against Mythic attacks aint what it used to be ;)

quicken communal resist energy 30 does the same job already

stoneskin is 4th level so not a target

herosim on the whole party ... happens already ;)

ready dispel magic ... okay you do nothing else that round except lock down a single caster , you lose against 2 casters

its no where near as bad as you think


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I tend to agree that the power of this ability is being overblown - and a great deal seems vested in the idea of characters as pieces in a wargame instead of as living breathing entities in a campaign. Concerns about constant minute/level buffs on the entire party I don't see coming up in the long term.

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Peter Stewart wrote:
I tend to agree that the power of this ability is being overblown - and a great deal seems vested in the idea of characters as pieces in a wargame instead of as living breathing entities in a campaign. Concerns about constant minute/level buffs on the entire party I don't see coming up in the long term.

One of the thing I find really sad about the ability is that it makes a Wizard a better Sorcerer than the sorcerer... (for low level spells, yes but still).

I really love most of the epic spells, because they can do things that affect the world, with a cost.

See a spell like greater mythic sleep. It's s*@+ty as a combat spell, but you can do so much in a campaign with it. It's interesting, you can build things around it, and in the end... I can imagine it fit really well in a Mythic campaign.

Now let's look at endless power... a Single character can have unlimited Remove curse/Disease. It's just not interesting. Hey, there is a epidemic here. Why even TRY to find the source of the corruption or anything? Just wait for a bit, my dear friend here is gonna cure you all!

Even if you're mythic, you shouldn't be able to remove curse/Disease from a whole population in a single day, it's too much. That kind of power should be for Gods only, and with a cost that you should not be willing to pay every day, or even every month.

Same thing with endless fireball (btw, it could be endless intensified fireball with a trait), that gives the arcane spellcaster the ability to whip out armies in mere seconds, without any problem.

You could say that it seems mythic, but really, I think it's a bit too much.

But I have to say that i would really enjoy the thousands of unseen servant that could make the life of my sorcerer so much easier...


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Remember, with Endless Power, you can't take it till Tier 6. At 1 Tier per 2 levels, that means you won't be Tier 6 until 12th level. He can't even get Endless 3rd level spells until Tier 8, which would put him at 16th level. By that point, a Wizard will already be able to take out, or at least seriously injure, a full on army. The things a Wizard could do to an army with 8th level spells is astronomical. I mean, fur the lulz, an Augment/Superior Summon Monster XIII could get you 1d3+1 Celstial/Fiendish Tryanosaurus' or 1d4+2 Celestial/Fiendish Triceratops (I like Dinosaurs).

Hell, things like Wind Wall, Fly, and a Wand of Fireball would allow him to take on legions of basic troops. He doesn't need to be Mythic to do that.

By the time things like Endless Power are made available, things like armies are naught but a nuisance to a Wizard.

As for curing a plague? What's your point? That's what the stories of heroes and legends are made of. A story of a devout man that single-handedly cured an entire city by channeling the power of his god, personally attending to the wounds of every person in town? That sounds suitably Mythic to me. Hell, it's downright inspirational!

Taldor

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:

Remember, with Endless Power, you can't take it till Tier 6. At 1 Tier per 2 levels, that means you won't be Tier 6 until 12th level. He can't even get Endless 3rd level spells until Tier 8, which would put him at 16th level. By that point, a Wizard will already be able to take out, or at least seriously injure, a full on army. The things a Wizard could do to an army with 8th level spells is astronomical. I mean, fur the lulz, an Augment/Superior Summon Monster XIII could get you 1d3+1 Celstial/Fiendish Tryanosaurus' or 1d4+2 Celestial/Fiendish Triceratops (I like Dinosaurs).

Hell, things like Wind Wall, Fly, and a Wand of Fireball would allow him to take on legions of basic troops. He doesn't need to be Mythic to do that.

By the time things like Endless Power are made available, things like armies are naught but a nuisance to a Wizard.

As for curing a plague? What's your point? That's what the stories of heroes and legends are made of. A story of a devout man that single-handedly cured an entire city by channeling the power of his god, personally attending to the wounds of every person in town? That sounds suitably Mythic to me. Hell, it's downright inspirational!

Well, my problem is... Yes a high level spell CAN give you the power to take out legions of basic troops, but you're limited on how much you can handle. With Endless Power you are not.

As for curing a plague... Yes the stories of heroes and legends are made of it, but do you know a lot of stories that goes: "That guy came into town, he cured everyone and left, the end"... No, because what makes a story Mythic is what you have to do in order to end the plague. And use a power that magically cures everyone is really just anti-climatic. If your characters can't afford to cure everyone by spamming remove curse/disease, they'll have to search for a cure, search where the epidemy comes from and you can build a journey or an adventure around it. If you can solve it with endless power... Well that is just... disappointing.

But it seems to me that we just disagree on how we see what being mythic means. You seems to say that you are mythic because of your raw power. I think mythic is about how you use your power to shape your actions.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darkorin wrote:
One of the thing I find really sad about the ability is that it makes a Wizard a better Sorcerer than the sorcerer... (for low level spells, yes but still).

I don't think the sorcerer is bereft of love in the playtest. Wild arcana effectively removes every limitation based around limited spells known. The wizard stepping on the sorcerers toes with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells doesn't strike me as too much.

Darkorin wrote:
Now let's look at endless power... a Single character can have unlimited Remove curse/Disease. It's just not interesting. Hey, there is a epidemic here. Why even TRY to find the source of the corruption or anything? Just wait for a bit, my dear friend here is gonna cure you all!

I don't see it this way, mostly because there is still the source of the plague to find.

This reminds me of a lower level adventure my group just ran through with 14th level characters. I think it was originally meant for 7th or 8th level PCs. A large part of the plot involved the fact that an isolated village was starving to death because it was being besieged by hostile fey and a ghostly horseman that killed anyone in the fields or going for help. The party wizard was able to completely negate the starving aspect of the adventure with magnificent mansion, feeding the entire town on demand. That didn't remove the rest of the adventure hook. The party still had to find out what the deal was with the ghost and the fey. Alleviating symptoms is not fixing a problem. In the plague example, it is a symptom of something else.

Darkorin wrote:
Even if you're mythic, you shouldn't be able to remove curse/Disease from a whole population in a single day, it's too much. That kind of power should be for Gods only, and with a cost that you should not be willing to pay every day, or even every month.

Ignoring the logistics of curing an entire city (curing 1 person a round every minute of the day only cures ~15,000 people a day), we are talking about an effectively ~24th level character. I don't view this as outside the bounds of his ability in terms of realism. This also assumes the disease is of a DC he can defeat with remove disease. It's possible that isn't the case.

Darkorin wrote:

Same thing with endless fireball (btw, it could be endless intensified fireball with a trait), that gives the arcane spellcaster the ability to whip out armies in mere seconds, without any problem.

As others have noted, when dedicated a spellcaster's ability to devastate level 1-2 foes at high levels (16+, vs. the ~24th we are talking about in this example) is enormous. That said, if the army lines up across from the wizard and lets him rain fireballs while screaming kill me, the DM deserves what he gets. There are plenty of ways to turn even a trivial encounter like this into a challenge for the entire party, much less the wizard.

Darkorin wrote:
Well, my problem is... Yes a high level spell CAN give you the power to take out legions of basic troops, but you're limited on how much you can handle. With Endless Power you are not.

You are still limited to X radius a round. What happens when the army disbands into small bands of raiders and starts attacking outlying settlements? What happens if they split into multiple forces? I think as many opportunities for storytelling as this closes off it opens up.

Darkorin wrote:
As for curing a plague... Yes the stories of heroes and legends are made of it, but do you know a lot of stories that goes: "That guy came into town, he cured everyone and left, the end"... No, because what makes a story Mythic is what you have to do in order to end the plague. And use a power that magically cures everyone is really just anti-climatic. If your characters can't afford to cure everyone by spamming remove curse/disease, they'll have to search for a cure, search where the epidemy comes from and you can build a journey or an adventure around it. If you can solve it with endless power... Well that is just... disappointing.

Even with remove disease at will (~16th level, tier 8, total ~24th effective level) I think this story line remains open, as noted above. You still have to discover the source of the plague unless you want to spend your life in the town curing people every day. And again, this assumes you can remove the plague with remove disease (caster level check).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darkorin wrote:
As for curing a plague... Yes the stories of heroes and legends are made of it, but do you know a lot of stories that goes: "That guy came into town, he cured everyone and left, the end"... No, because what makes a story Mythic is what you have to do in order to end the plague. And use a power that magically cures everyone is really just anti-climatic. If your characters can't afford to cure everyone by spamming remove curse/disease, they'll have to search for a cure, search where the epidemy comes from and you can build a journey or an adventure around it.

And then, after spending all day curing everybody, they keep getting sick. I guess the heroes will have to figure out what's going on after all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
As for curing a plague... Yes the stories of heroes and legends are made of it, but do you know a lot of stories that goes: "That guy came into town, he cured everyone and left, the end"... No, because what makes a story Mythic is what you have to do in order to end the plague. And use a power that magically cures everyone is really just anti-climatic. If your characters can't afford to cure everyone by spamming remove curse/disease, they'll have to search for a cure, search where the epidemy comes from and you can build a journey or an adventure around it.
And then, after spending all day curing everybody, they keep getting sick. I guess the heroes will have to figure out what's going on after all.

Great minds.


The legend isn't that he came into town and cured the plague and left.

The legend is that he could walk on water, feed the hungry, heal the blind, the sick and the lame.

He could bring back the dead, and drive back evil. His very presence was uplifting.

A lowly scribe may follow this person on his travels, and may or may not just decide to make a Bible or something about this man with such amazing divine power....


A little late in here, but I have to say Endless Power is one of the few abilities I like. It FEELS mythic. Not just tacked on numbers, but a definite 'I am the stuff of legends' feel. I do think it may be pushing it a little bit. Perhaps making it so any spells cast without using a slot/prepared spell are at 1/2 caster level (or at a caster level = mythic tier)?


I've got a sorcerer 12/archmage 6 in a playtest, and the one that worries me is mythic cloudkill combined with metamastery. With selective, he can cover the entire party in the cloud. Anything up to 9 HD, no save, thud, dead. 10-12 HD, save or die, if you save take 1d8 con damage. 13+, 1d8 con damage save vs fort, and even saving take half.

With metamastery 3 he can add widen (40' radius cloud), persistant (roll twice, take worse save. Did I mention the cloudkill DC is 27?), maximized (how long do most creatures survive 8 con per round?), or dazing for 5 rounds, as they sit there and die. For an extra 2 points of mythic power, not even poison immunity can save you from the deadly vapors. Only thing it doesn't stop is undead.

That's not counting things like his maximized fireball, 80' diameter doing 132 points of fire damage that ignores fire immunity (which he could add widen spell to increase it to 160' diameter), or his unlimited dazing magic missiles.

Now, while some of these tricks can take up to four mythic points, he has 24 of them to start with, so... yeah.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Dilvias wrote:
I've got a sorcerer 12/archmage 6 in a playtest, and the one that worries me...

Well, an ancient red dragon is supposed to be an easy fight for your archmage, so he's going to need those mythic spells. An ordinary 18th-level sorcerer would have 9th-level spells to throw at that dragon.


An ancient red dragon is CR 19, which is a bit high for him. So, let's take a look at something like a Thunder Behemoth (CR 18). Round one, sorcerer wins initiative (no matter what amazing initiative turns out to be, considering the behemoth is at -2, he will win it). Fires off a greater mythic heightened dazing persistant magic missile. The greater version ignores SR and immunities, so all 10 missiles hit for an average of 60 pts. The beast has to make a DC 26 save with a will of +12, rolling twice and taking the worse result, and with an approximate 12% chance of making the save is very likely dazed for four rounds.

Next three rounds, the sorcerer fires off three maximzed greater mythic fireballs while the behemoth sits there looking stupid. Boom, done. Now, he used 14 mythic points, so will likely have to take the rest of the day off, but he just easily soloed a thunder behemoth, so he deserves his rest.

Osirion

Sounds like an issue with the DM allowing players to reset after every encounter. An issue that has nothing to do with mythic.

Put that character in a four man group and run 2-4 CR+1 encounters and a CR+3 encounter before allowing him to rest.


Ok Mythic spells

Mythic time stop is broken at higher levels as you hit the 24hour point you can retake the spell and then roll it over as rit so that, you have time stop ever lasting. Tell me if I am wrong. I think it should be moved from Rounds to "minutes" with a mythic spend not "hours".

Sparel Radtymah wrote:

So epic time stop when you're level 10 mythic will let one timestop for 20 hours.

Not that its relevant now, but I'm curious about something. If I'm "time stopped" for 20 hours can I cast the spell then rest for 8 hours and re-memorize spells including the slot I used to cast timestop in the first place? I don't see why not. Thoughts?


Upps just spotted

Creatures affected by this spell gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active.

forget


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Honestly my take away Dilvias is that the problem in your example is dazing spell. In every example I've seen posted that cited a problem with high level casters and metamastery dazing spell has been the commonality.

I'd also suspect that metamastery is going to be ruled as incompatible with mythic spells, but that's just my take away.

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