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Trickster is a bit dissappointing.


Player Feedback

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How about an ability to redirect someone's actions to affect different targets? Spend a mythic power use, if the target does not make its will save, the particular action (attack, buff, special ability, whatever) you address affects a target you choose (yourself, its user, your allies, their allies...) instead of the intended target.


I think illusionist/enchanter is an important part to fill, as mentioned. Pus it would make the path more appealing for bards, too. Things like the hiding in illusions proposed above, but also a few more options. I have no good ideas myself, just agreeing with what's already been said.


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Ooh, here's an idea:

Subliminal Command

When you cast a compulsion spell on a creature and it fails its will save, you may spend a point of mythic power to choose to suspend the spell until a certain condition is met, as per contingency. When the condition is met, the spell comes into effect. The creature remains unaware that it has this contingency in effect unless it is made aware by other means.

If you spend an additional point of mythic power when suspending the spell, you may cause the target to lose all memory of events during the time from the contingency's activation until the contingent spell ends.

For example, you could use this ability to cast suggestion on the villain's aide to backstab him when he's vulnerable.


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Effortless Illusion

Once during your turn, you may concentrate on an illusion spell as a free action. Additionally, when you concentrate on an illusion spell you may change the appearance of the illusion to anything the spell is normally able to produce.


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Subtle Magic

Whenever you cast a spell, use a spell-like ability or activate a spell-completion or spell-trigger item, you may spend a mythic power point and make a bluff or sleight of hand check with a penalty equal to the spell's level to make the spell subtle. A subtle spell still requires the normal components but the use of these components and the act of casting are not noticed unless observers succeed an opposed sense motive check (if you used bluff) or perception check (if you used sleight of hand) against your skill check.

The effects of the subtle spell (if it has obvious effects) are not hidden in any way, but observers may not realise that you are its source.


yeah, that kinda stuff sounds good. Really like those. Possibly there should be something like a more powerful version of the rakshasa sorcerer's arcana in there too, to cast one thing while you seem to be casting another.


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Dramatic Presence

As a free action, you may spend a point of mythic power to become dramatic and distracting to all that see you to the point where they fail to notice their own surroundings. Your allies are treated as being invisible (even to senses that could otherwise percieve invisible creatures) relative to all other creatures that can percieve you clearly. Dramatic presence lasts for up to 1 minute per mythic rank. You may end it at any time with a free action. An ally that takes an action that would break invisibility ends the entire effect.

This needs some kind of save or opposed check, maybe?


It's cool, but yeah, a perception check or a will save would seem to be in order. DC should probably be set by perform somehow.


Imagine a level 1 bard discovering mythic power using this. Getting up in front of a crowd, performing so that they're all watching, then friends milling in the crowd start picking pockets with supernatural ease. ;)

An adventuring party in town notices the astounding skill and recruits the bard.

Also all their spare change is missing.


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Here's some particularly strange ones I've imagined.

History's Trace (Su): With a successful Kn: History check (DC 15 plus X for each # years/decades/centuries back) and a point of mythic power, you can view events as they transpired in your current location as though you were present. This viewing lasts for 1 minute per mythic tier. You must be at least 5th tier to select this power. At 8th tier, you may spend an additional point of mythic power to preform a steal combat maneuver check on anyone viewed and return to the present immediately. The stolen item returns with you to the present, but returns to the past in a number of days equal to your mythic tier unless used or destroyed. (Effects of a destroyed item returning to history are best left up to the GM.)

Arrow Leaping (Ex): If you would be hit by a ranged attack, you may spend a point of mythic power to attempt an Acrobatics check, DC = the attack roll. If you succeed, you appear next to the attacker and may make an attack of opportunity. The attacker is flat-footed against this attack. You must be at least 3rd tier to select this ability. At 6th tier, you may use it on ranged spells.

(Based off what someone said earlier in the thread.)

Costume Swap (Ex): You may spend a point of mythic power to make a Disguise check as a Disarm combat maneuver. If you are successful, you swap clothes and all possessions with the target of the maneuver.

Improbable Hiding (Su): You may spend a point of mythic power to make Stealth check to hide in any location down to the size of a thimble. You may hide under rocks, within knotholes of trees, or even inside an ally's nostril. If you are hiding inside a hostile creature, you must make a successful tumble as though going through that creature's square. If you attack a creature you are hiding in, you are immediately discovered and provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be ?th tier to select this ability.


Dramatic Presence seems more like a marshal ability to me. And while I'm not sure where History's Trance would go, trickster doesn't seem to fit.


Costume swap seems a little extreme and silly, but could work. Might be broken if you use it to rob high level characters and might ruin boss fights. One to watch out for.

Arrow Leaping looks a little dubious. I fire one shot at you, so you teleport to me and get a free attack? Doesn't feel much like arrow leaping.

Not sure if Trace fits.

Improbably hiding seems fun, if somewhat crazy.


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Unwavering Skill: Have this ability stack with Critical Skill

Keeper of Forgotten Lore: You add a bonus to all Knowledge checks equal to your Tier level x 2, and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained. This ability stacks with Bardic Knowledge.

I’m just that Good: You may take an additional archetype that would normally be prohibited. All abilities granted by the additional archetype function normally, even if they replace an ability of the base class that is replaced by another archetype the character already possesses.


I really like History's Trace and Costume Swap, though as Mortuum said, it could be a bit much at times; I think that one would definitely not be a tier 1 ability. History's Trace just oozes flavor and I could see it coming up in some epic showdown where you reach back into the past to borrow the uber-artifact that originally defeated whatever ancient evil that you are now fighting.


maxgravity wrote:
Keeper of Forgotten Lore: You add a bonus to all Knowledge checks equal to your Tier level x 2, and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained. This ability stacks with Bardic Knowledge.

That bonus to knowledge checks seems high. I would say just equal to tier. But yeah I absolutely would love to be able to make more Knowledge checks as a rogue. I tend to have +2 or +3 to int that could be put to good use that way.


Jackissocool wrote:
Dramatic Presence seems more like a marshal ability to me. And while I'm not sure where History's Trance would go, trickster doesn't seem to fit.

What if I called it 'Distracting Performance' and left it as is? :P

Scarab Sages Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Challenge accepted. I'll instruct one of my players Monday to build a trickster, and I'll build one right now to see whether I salivate or grimace.

I just didn't think any single path was that bad. A designer has to come up with lots of options that fit multiple types. I think as players we tend to focus on what we got for Christmas. Frex, your characters might not use potions and wands much, but adding your mythic tier to your caster level for use-activated devices is badass. Cheap first level potions with extended durations? Using a staff at your normal caster level plus 1-5? Cast a quickened buff spell that's not on your spell list once per turn? I think a lot of players can turn those abilities into something totally epic.

Having said all that, I'm glad to see Jason say there's more already on the table, and Lucent deserves credit for several fantastic ideas. My build tonight will totally have dismantle.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I only say 3 levels of magus, extra arcana, wand wielder arcana and wand mastery arcana, or rod wielder and rod mastery. Then add that wand dancer feat if you even need it and craft wand or rod or staff or go staff magus at all and mythic item craft becomes an insane new amazing totally cool feature that makes a whole lot of fun to play.

And as a rogue you can´t do quite that, but still amazing things. Obscuring mist, pyrotechnics, etc become your friends. Or darkness. Or blur. Or mage armor. i Can see rogues taking magical aptitude at level 1.
Only too bad that you can´t take 10 with UMD.


Lucent wrote:
Pilfered Morality: By expending a point of mythic power, the trickster may attempt a sleight of hand check on an adjacent target. If successful, he temporarily appears to have the same alignment as the victim. Spells and abilities that detect alignments or alignment-dependent abilities or items detect the victim's alignment, not the trickster's. The trickster does not know what the target's alignment is, unless he has other means of detecting it independently. Pilfered morality lasts for 1 minute per mythic tier.

I'm not so sure about this one. I already have visions of the trickster player trying to force a paladin-fall on a fellow party member just because he can.


Grey Lensman wrote:
Lucent wrote:
Pilfered Morality: By expending a point of mythic power, the trickster may attempt a sleight of hand check on an adjacent target. If successful, he temporarily appears to have the same alignment as the victim. Spells and abilities that detect alignments or alignment-dependent abilities or items detect the victim's alignment, not the trickster's. The trickster does not know what the target's alignment is, unless he has other means of detecting it independently. Pilfered morality lasts for 1 minute per mythic tier.
I'm not so sure about this one. I already have visions of the trickster player trying to force a paladin-fall on a fellow party member just because he can.

How? It doesn't take the paladins alignment away.


VM mercenario wrote:
How? It doesn't take the paladins alignment away.

I think the idea is that the Trickster is Evil but doesn't join the party until he's already Mythic and has taken Pilfered Morality, then pretends to be Good to avoid the Paladin's Detect Evil, joins the party, and then the GM declares that the Paladin falls for associating with an evil character and the GM and Trickster high-five each other and the Paladin asks what the point all of this was and how it was supposed to be fun in any way and leaves the table because the other players are clearly jerks.

So basically it lets jerks do what they can already do during levels 1-4 (since you need 5 HD or some special reason to have an aura like being a cleric of an evil deity before Detect Evil registers you as evil, so a fourth-level evil Fighter could already do exactly the same thing).

I see what Grey Lensman thinks the problem is, but I disagree that it's an issue in any way.


Roberta Yang wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
How? It doesn't take the paladins alignment away.

I think the idea is that the Trickster is Evil but doesn't join the party until he's already Mythic and has taken Pilfered Morality, then pretends to be Good to avoid the Paladin's Detect Evil, joins the party, and then the GM declares that the Paladin falls for associating with an evil character and the GM and Trickster high-five each other and the Paladin asks what the point all of this was and how it was supposed to be fun in any way and leaves the table because the other players are clearly jerks.

So basically it lets jerks do what they can already do during levels 1-4 (since you need 5 HD or some special reason to have an aura like being a cleric of an evil deity before Detect Evil registers you as evil, so a fourth-level evil Fighter could already do exactly the same thing).

I see what Grey Lensman thinks the problem is, but I disagree that it's an issue in any way.

Yeah, and if you read the rules for Associates, no where does it say you auto fall for associating with evil. The closest thing in the RAR is that they should disassociate with the evil character once their true alignment becomes known.


Roberta Yang wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
How? It doesn't take the paladins alignment away.

I think the idea is that the Trickster is Evil but doesn't join the party until he's already Mythic and has taken Pilfered Morality, then pretends to be Good to avoid the Paladin's Detect Evil, joins the party, and then the GM declares that the Paladin falls for associating with an evil character and the GM and Trickster high-five each other and the Paladin asks what the point all of this was and how it was supposed to be fun in any way and leaves the table because the other players are clearly jerks.

So basically it lets jerks do what they can already do during levels 1-4 (since you need 5 HD or some special reason to have an aura like being a cleric of an evil deity before Detect Evil registers you as evil, so a fourth-level evil Fighter could already do exactly the same thing).

I see what Grey Lensman thinks the problem is, but I disagree that it's an issue in any way.

What.

...
What.
That DM would deserve a high five. In the face. With a chair. Until he stopped being concious.


I misread the entry. Instead of seeing that the trickster mimics the alignment of the victim, I came away thinking he steals the alignment of the victim and forces his alignment on them.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

So I have a question on Surprise Strike. Is it able to be used with spells, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities with multiple uses/day, and such like that involve attack rolls? I have a player interested in going into Trickster or Dual Path Trickster/Hierophant with a Spellscar Oracle, with full intent on using Surprise Strike to spam eldritch bolts en masse. However, another of my players says it shouldn't work with spell effects (and is trying to talk the first player out of Trickster, with this as one of her pieces of evidence), hence my inquiry.

Scarab Sages Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Should work with anything that requires an attack roll, and is readily available. So if you have a spell with a held charge or that allows ranged attacks while in play (ie produce flame), the feat should work just fine. Note it doesn't let you cast a spell as a swift action or use spells that don't require attack rolls.

Sovereign Court

Nice stuff Lucient!

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Steven T. Helt wrote:
Should work with anything that requires an attack roll, and is readily available. So if you have a spell with a held charge or that allows ranged attacks while in play (ie produce flame), the feat should work just fine. Note it doesn't let you cast a spell as a swift action or use spells that don't require attack rolls.

Here's the ability in question:

Quote:
Eldritch Bolt (Su): You can damage foes with a bolt of raw magical energy. Make a ranged touch attack against any foe within 30 feet. On a hit, you deal 1d8 points of force damage, +1 point of damage per two oracle levels. At 10th level, the bolt’s range increases to 60 feet. You may use this revelation a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

It's not a spell, so no casting time is involved. So, by my reading and your clarification, so long as she has uses still available for the second attack she can use it with Surprise Strike.

Scarab Sages Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

You could surprise strike with this ability, provided that surprise strike doesn't use an action. The ability in question is normally a standard action on its own, so you couldn't use it if surprise strike is a standard action.

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

I'll look it up when I get home then. Thanks!

Shadow Lodge Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Surprise Strike is a Swift action. Looks like they do indeed work together. Thanks for the clarification!


Got your nose!: You can steal senses. Perform a steal combat maneuver and choose nose, ears, or eyes. If successful, you steal that from the target and it appears on your person, denying that creature that sense and allowing you to use it within your natural reach for 1 round plus 1 round for each 5 you beat the CMD. If you beat the CMD by 5 or more, you can steal blindsense or tremorsense and reduce the duration by 1 round. If you beat it by 10 or more you can steal blindsight and reduce the duration by 2 rounds. You must be Xth level to select this power. Other than losing the sense, the target takes no other penalty and can breathe normally.


HA!

Sovereign Court

Vanishing Act (EX) Trickster does an area bluff against all targets within 30 feet vs their Sense Motive. Immediately afterwards the trickster moves up to his full move towards any cover. All those he beats in the test consider him invisable unless he moves. All those that won the test know roughly where his is but he gains the benefit of full cover until he moves.

I'm trying to emulate Batman's trick here...


Lucent wrote:
In your Ear: Instead of making an automatic critical hit as part of the "back of the head" power, you can instead whisper words of power in their ear and dominate them if they fail their will save treating them as a loyal war trained mount of INT 3 or less for a number of rounds equal to your mythic level. If you dismount the effect ends. Once a creature has been targeted by this power it is immune until the following day.

MASTERBLASTER!!! awesome.


Pharmalade wrote:
Got your nose!: You can steal senses. Perform a steal combat maneuver and choose nose, ears, or eyes. If successful, you steal that from the target and it appears on your person, denying that creature that sense and allowing you to use it within your natural reach for 1 round plus 1 round for each 5 you beat the CMD. If you beat the CMD by 5 or more, you can steal blindsense or tremorsense and reduce the duration by 1 round. If you beat it by 10 or more you can steal blindsight and reduce the duration by 2 rounds. You must be Xth level to select this power. Other than losing the sense, the target takes no other penalty and can breathe normally.

Time to steal the ears of every elf I ever encounter.


I am really glad to read these suggestions. As it was, I saw no reason for a rogue to even mess with trickster and to use champion instead. Was sorta depressed about that.

Greg


Apologies for digging this old thread up, but I thought of an ability that's a must have for any illusionist wanting to do anything at all at high levels.

False Seeing
See invisibility and true seeing do not automatically see through your spells. The first time a creature with see invisibility or true seeing would see an illusion or polymorph effect of yours, it must make a Will save against the spell or treat that spell or effect as if they did not have see invisibility or true seeing for the next 24 hours. After this time, if it encounters the same spell or effect again, it may make an additional save.


I'll admit first up that I haven't had time to go through all of the suggestions thus far, so I apologize if any of these have already been done in one form or another!

I was a little uncertain about the early focus on the steal combat maneuver - while it is a cool gimmick, and a lot of the ideas are great, it would be disappointing if the Trickster became entirely about stealing thing. Not every rogue is a thief, and not everyone taking the trickster path is a rogue. I noticed Umbral Reaver was doing a series of ideas for spellcasting tricksters, so I kept mine to a more physical theme. Some of these would probably have minimum Tier requirements.

Blind Man's Intuition: A trickster possesses incredible awareness of her surroundings. As a free action, she can spend 1 mythic point to gain blindsight 100ft for a number of rounds equal to her mythic tier.

Flowing Water: Once per round, when the trickster makes a successful Reflex save against an area attack (such as a spell or breath weapon) or is missed by a melee attack, she may move up to her speed as an immediate action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, however the trickster cannot end this movement in any square threatened by an opponent.

Ghostly Step: For a number of rounds equal to her mythic tier, trickster can use the run action without suffering any penalty to her Stealth checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. While using this power, the trickster does not touch the ground, rendering her invisible to tremorsense and immune to any effect, such as many traps and some spells, that require a creature to make contact with a surface. Additionally, a trickster can spend 1 mythic point as a swift action to become invisible while using the run action.

Run Like The Wind: A trickster may use the run action for a number of hours equal to their mythic tier without having to make Constitution checks or suffering nonlethal damage. At the end of this run, they must return to their normal movement and begin making Constitution checks every hour as per the forced march rules. Additionally, a trickster can spend 1 mythic point as a swift action to double their charging or running distance for 1 round.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd personally like to see some of the Trickster abilities play up their strength in social encounters rather than everything just being about new and interesting ways to deprive someone of wealth or life. Feat of Charisma is handy naturally, but it just seems like a rather brute-force way of going about it.

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