Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

RPG Superstar 2015

The Pregenerated Revolution - A Vote for Change


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

51 to 100 of 103 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:

]How often do people pay for event tickets for a specific 7-11 scenario without having a level 7+ character (serious question)?

Half the 7-11 tables at Gen Con.

Specific event tickets or generics? Do you think they take seats away from people who have real characters? How do we prevent people from signing up for Eyes of the Ten (should it be offered)?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:

]How often do people pay for event tickets for a specific 7-11 scenario without having a level 7+ character (serious question)?

Half the 7-11 tables at Gen Con.
Would it work, from your perspective, to limit the 7-11 tables, list them as no pregens available and then open up more 1-7 tables?

Probably not. WHat I saw this year is that people just bought real tickets and didn't read what the event was, what levels it was for, etc... Gen Con will not allow me to put tiers or levels in the event title so that is out.

I significantly reduced the amount of 7-11 tables this year, and increased both 1-5 and 3-7. Next year, 7-11 will probably remain about the same with an increase to both of those.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem that I see, is that all those people playing 5-9 last year at GenCon may have characters in the 7-11 range by next year's GenCon. So just because half of the players of 7-11 scenarios were pregens this year doesn't mean that that same percentage will be doing that next year.

You are going to lose a significant amount of money by NOT offering 7th level pregens at gencon, no matter what the percentage is.

Level 7 Pregens give you an option to play at the high tier for 1-7 and 3-7 games, either tier at 5-9 and low tier at 7-11. They are incredibly versatile and I would hate to lose them.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Kyle Baird wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:

]How often do people pay for event tickets for a specific 7-11 scenario without having a level 7+ character (serious question)?

Half the 7-11 tables at Gen Con.
Specific event tickets or generics? Do you think they take seats away from people who have real characters? How do we prevent people from signing up for Eyes of the Ten (should it be offered)?

Real tickets, not generic. As I mentioned above, people by and large don't read event descriptions even though I advise that the scenario is for characters of levels 7-11.

I don't have a solution for people signing up for Eyes of Ten who don't have level 12 characters. I am happy to take suggestions but what I can do with the ticketing system is very limited.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Todd Morgan wrote:

The problem that I see, is that all those people playing 5-9 last year at GenCon may have characters in the 7-11 range by next year's GenCon. So just because half of the players of 7-11 scenarios were pregens this year doesn't mean that that same percentage will be doing that next year.

You are going to lose a significant amount of money by NOT offering 7th level pregens at gencon, no matter what the percentage is.

Level 7 Pregens give you an option to play at the high tier for 1-7 and 3-7 games, either tier at 5-9 and low tier at 7-11. They are incredibly versatile and I would hate to lose them.

Level 7 pregens aren't going away. They are essentially complete and in the back of the NPC Codex.

As for losing a significant amount of money if we didn't offer 7th level pregens, probably not.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Well, I would say a couple hundred dollars is significant, but from a corporate level, significant may not be the term I would use.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Level 7 pregens aren't going away. They are essentially complete and in the back of the NPC Codex.

What about making level 5 pregens instead of level 4?

Liberty's Edge *****

Michael Brock wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:

The problem that I see, is that all those people playing 5-9 last year at GenCon may have characters in the 7-11 range by next year's GenCon. So just because half of the players of 7-11 scenarios were pregens this year doesn't mean that that same percentage will be doing that next year.

You are going to lose a significant amount of money by NOT offering 7th level pregens at gencon, no matter what the percentage is.

Level 7 Pregens give you an option to play at the high tier for 1-7 and 3-7 games, either tier at 5-9 and low tier at 7-11. They are incredibly versatile and I would hate to lose them.

Level 7 pregens aren't going away. They are essentially complete and in the back of the NPC Codex.

As for losing a significant amount of money if we didn't offer 7th level pregens, probably not.

What you could do is:

Have a Generic PFS ticket, that will get you sat at a few tables for said tickets.

The only people looking to play their level 12 guy, is probably going to be paying attention on these boards anyways.

So you announce here, that if you want to play Eyes of the Ten, buy a PFS Generic, then show up Thursday Night/Friday Morning to sign up manually on an Eyes of the Ten sign-up sheet.

Everyone else that shows up with a PFS Generic ticket will get sat at an appropriate 3-7, 1-5 or first steps table.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I am generally favorable for this proposal, with one concern and one observation.

Concern: A Level 7 pre-gen is a better fit for most of the Tier 5-9 teams than a 5th-level pre-gen. If the rest of the PCs are ready to play the high subtier, the 5th-level pre-gen is going to struggle, contribute little, and die.

But that's not any different than 7th-level pre-gens now, in a Tier 7 - 11 adventure.

Observation: This would put the Tier 7-11 scenarios (about 20% of the existing PFS scenarios?) out of reach for people playing pre-gen characters. That will lend a certain cachet to those adventures, making them more rarely played.

I am interested in hearing from the people playing at Fantasy Flight Games up in the Twin Cities, since they are specializing in high-tier and high-subtier scenarios. This sort of change would impact that environment more than any else.

Dark Archive **

Michael Brock wrote:
As I mentioned above, people by and large don't read event descriptions even though I advise that the scenario is for characters of levels 7-11.

What's wrong with simply turning them away and explaining that they should read their event descriptions next time? I see no problem with literacy being a prerequisite for participation in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

;)

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Grammar Nazi wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
As I mentioned above, people by and large don't read event descriptions even though I advise that the scenario is for characters of levels 7-11.

What's wrong with simply turning them away and explaining that they should read their event descriptions next time? I see no problem with literacy being a prerequisite for participation in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

;)

I wouldn't mind it except it would be nearly 30% of the tickets we sell. It also is prevalent in 5-9 and 3-7 scenarios with people showing up with 2nd level characters.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Yeah, that silly grammar nazi is so picky!

Grand Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Level 7 pregens aren't going away. They are essentially complete and in the back of the NPC Codex.
What about making level 5 pregens instead of level 4?

The problem with having level 5 pregens instead of level 4 is that sanctioned modules are covered by 1, 4, and 7 up to Tier 7-9. If you use a level 5 pregen instead then there is no pregen for a Tier 2-4 module.

1, 4, 7 is the best spread to cover what is available for PFS.

The Exchange ****

Admittedly, as a player who is capable of reading, I am sad they don't allow you to put the level range in the title. stupid gencon :-p.

it'd be nice to just skim through the titles and know the levels :(

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Are pregens used in sanctioned modules that much? I always figured they were mainly used in scenarios.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Austin aka Pegastar

I vote yay, I can't think of a time when a level 7 pregen has ever been played at any of the games I have gone to, or at any of the games I have helped organize. We are playing mid to high tier levels, and everyone already has a character in those tiers. We have at least one table set aside for lower level characters and we play the level one and the level four pregens.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's not about how much they are used. It is about there being an option for their use when without them, there would be no option to play.

Is having no option a bad thing? Yes.

Is having a well-built very strong pregen a bad thing? Yes. Many would not want to build their own PC. We'd have a bunch of clones out there.

Show new players the problems with the pregens. Consider it a learning experience. It will motivate them to build their own PC better.

****

Leave the pregens at the levels there are now.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Don Walker wrote:
It's not about how much they are used. It is about there being an option for their use when without them, there would be no option to play.

So then it also bothers you that there are no pregens in range of the sanctioned modules that run from levels 9-18? Sure, they wouldn't get used as much as pregens within scenario ranges, but if it's not about how much they are used...

Quote:
Is having no option a bad thing? Yes.

Okay, so it's a bad thing that there are no 14th-level pregens for use in PFS sanctioned modules.

Either that, or it is about how much they're used, and past a certain threshold it becomes not worth having, and we can discuss where exactly that line is.

Quote:

Is having a well-built very strong pregen a bad thing? Yes. Many would not want to build their own PC. We'd have a bunch of clones out there.

Show new players the problems with the pregens. Consider it a learning experience. It will motivate them to build their own PC better.

Not sure where this came from, but I agree. :)

Grand Lodge ****

Kristina Wang wrote:
I vote yay, I can't think of a time when a level 7 pregen has ever been played at any of the games I have gone to, or at any of the games I have helped organize. We are playing mid to high tier levels, and everyone already has a character in those tiers. We have at least one table set aside for lower level characters and we play the level one and the level four pregens.

I know a player who once his PC reaches level 7 he will jump to level 9 because of all the level 7 pregen credit he has racked up. Food for thought.

* Star Voter 2013

Nay.

I’d rather not see the elimination of the level 7 pregens. Many tables I’ve participated in would not be possible without the level 7 pregens. Where you live, they’re probably not needed and are undesirable. Where I live, tables don’t happen if they’re not available. Level 7 pregens are adequately powerful enough to help in subtier 5-6 and 7-8, and 6-7. Level 7 Kyra (with an altered spell selection) still does well at subtier 8-9.

Your level 5 pregens would have to be VERY twinked and powerful indeed to be adequate in subtier 6-7 or even 5-6. And we all know that they won’t be, because they need certain iconic abilities and style. Level 7 pregens are currently only useful at subtier 5-6 and 6-7 because they’re at the top of the subtier. If we had level 5 pregens and lost the level 7 pregens, we’d lose the ability for pregens to play (effectively) at subtiers 6-7, 5-6 and 8-9, and 7-8. At my local scene, that would not be a good thing. I can see your perspective on the pregens being deadly at high level tables, but if I had to choose between playing with a pregen or not playing at all, I’ll play with a pregen.

I want the pregens to be updated and optimized, but at their current levels. And I want all of the core classes (and maybe base classes as well) included as pregens at level 1. At level 4 I’d prefer a more limited pregen selection. At level 7, I want only some of the core class pregens, the ones that are the easiest to play and are the most useful (Ex. Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and maybe Barbarian) with optimized spell selections. For example, I do not want the level 7 gunslinger, samurai, or cavalier.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Don Walker wrote:
The problem with having level 5 pregens instead of level 4 is ...sanctioned modules

Each sanctioned module has pregens in the back of it that are legal for that specific module (can't find the post right now). Modules are not a problem.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Additionally, modules are a bonus to PFS play. A level 5 pregen can be used in more scenarios than a level 4.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Fresno aka Sarta

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to propose the following amendment:

If Painlord is playing or running the table, all pregens must be gunslingers.

The Exchange **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

No.

If someone winds up with a level 6 character, but the only available table is going 7+, i don't want to have to relegate someone to wandering around with nothing to do for 5 hours or go home early.

Also no, for basically this reason. I have a friend who rarely plays PFS. His only character has just reached 5th level. Being able to play a 7th level pre-gen when we've exhausted all lower level scenarios that all of us in the group haven't played allows him to continue to play with us even when the only scenarios available are 7-11s. I personally think that level 12 pre-gens should be made for the same reason with regards to sanctioned module play--but that's another thread all together.

The Exchange ***

Kyle Baird wrote:
To build more on what PFCBG is saying, I have literally wanted to walk away from a table because of a pregen at that tier. By the time you've gotten to that level, you're strongly invested in your character's survival and to have one or more people at the table with little to no investment really ruins the experience.

I don't know that your experience is necessarily tied to Level 7 pregens. If you can remember Dragon*Con I was at a 7-11 table you were GMing. We had a couple of level 7s. Neither were pregens but the way they were played made me wonder if the players had any emotional investment in them or knowledge of how the class mechanics worked.

From a more personal viewpoint, I've had worse experiences with the level 1 pregens. Often these are players completely new to RPGs, not just PFS. There's no investment there at all. My most sickening experience was at a con when one of my characters was in his ninth scenario. We triggered a (winnable) fight, I moved in, and the level 1 pregens ran away. I died and had neither the gold nor Fame for a raise dead.

But I don't think level 1 pregens should be banned. It's the best way to introduce new players. Neither do I think level 7s should be banned. Maybe it's just that I haven't had your experiences. I generally see level 7 pregens played as a fill-in when a player was expecting to play a lower tier table that didn't make. The players may not have the emotional investment in that character but I haven't seen much "showing up to play a pregen" going on. (Sidebar- new players really shouldn't play anything but level 1s).

Summary: it's a function of the players, not the pregens.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
Don Walker wrote:
The problem with having level 5 pregens instead of level 4 is ...sanctioned modules
Each sanctioned module has pregens in the back of it that are legal for that specific module (can't find the post right now). Modules are not a problem.

I do not think the module pregens are legal for every sanctioned module. They are legal for:

We Be Goblins
Dawn of the Scarlet Sun

I do not think there are any full length modules where the included pregens are legal.

The Exchange ***

Michael Brock wrote:
Grammar Nazi wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
As I mentioned above, people by and large don't read event descriptions even though I advise that the scenario is for characters of levels 7-11.

What's wrong with simply turning them away and explaining that they should read their event descriptions next time? I see no problem with literacy being a prerequisite for participation in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

;)

I wouldn't mind it except it would be nearly 30% of the tickets we sell. It also is prevalent in 5-9 and 3-7 scenarios with people showing up with 2nd level characters.

And sometimes it isn't the player's fault that they are in the wrong tier. At D*C this year I was GMing a 5-9 in the very last slot of the convention. I had a family group show up (always cool). But to the vagaries of conventions (tables not making, Character death, etc. only Mom and Dad had level 5s. If everything went according to plan the kids *would* have had level 5 characters.

Grand Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Don Walker wrote:
It's not about how much they are used. It is about there being an option for their use when without them, there would be no option to play.

So then it also bothers you that there are no pregens in range of the sanctioned modules that run from levels 9-18? Sure, they wouldn't get used as much as pregens within scenario ranges, but if it's not about how much they are used...

Quote:
Is having no option a bad thing? Yes.

Okay, so it's a bad thing that there are no 14th-level pregens for use in PFS sanctioned modules.

Either that, or it is about how much they're used, and past a certain threshold it becomes not worth having, and we can discuss where exactly that line is.

...

Infer what you will from my words, but I did not say anything about higher level pregens.

PFS scenarios run from level 1 to level 11. The 1, 4, and 7 level pregens cover all those Tiers. Having a level 4 pregen allows for level 3 module play (Tier 2-4). When you get to level 12 you have the special Eyes of Ten arc or high level sanctioned modules to play.

Getting past the 7-11 Tier scenarios is a milestone. You are no longer playing regular PFS scenarios (Eyes of Ten is a special case). My personal opinion is that this high level play in PFS should be reserved for those who have invested the time and skill to reach level 12.

This is not changing anything. This is not taking away the ability to play regular PFS scenarios - that removing the level 7 pregen would.

The Exchange ****

i'm leaning towards nay.

I think Don summed it up pretty well.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the suggestion though I understand that the Level 7's are here to stay (though really looking forward to them being updated in the NPC codex).

I would like to, however make a related suggestion.

Adapt the pregen model from the Free RPG day module, Dawn of the Scarlet Sun and build into the pregens a small amount of customization/variability to formalize a means by which a new player can quickly customize their specific instance of a pregen without that customization being unbalanced - but while also offering them a bit more flexibility to match a pregen to their play style and the scenario.

This doesn't have to be special boons - but could be simple swaps of some of the default combat gear or the spells prepared that day (especially for Kyra where many players wonder why certain choices were made) and for any future iconic/pre-gen Druid etc. Prepared casters like wizards etc could also benefit from a bit more flexibility.

I've certainly seen old and new players alike make great use of pregens when they haven't had a character to play at that level (especially Valeros at higher levels who has some often very useful combat gear and Kyra's healing etc is almost always appreciated)

Options that showed, however, some of the flexibility of Pathfinder might be helpful in showing new players how small changes could make for dramatically different characters - i.e. a different choice of domains (and feats) for a cleric or school specialization for a wizard etc.

And on the most basic level I hope the new, revised Pregens have no technical mistakes - they don't have to be perfectly optimized but hopefully won't have outright mistakes.

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Are pregens used in sanctioned modules that much? I always figured they were mainly used in scenarios.

Almost every Module I have ever run has had at least 1 Pregen.

Usually we are a set group of players that like playing together, so for all of us to play that may require a Pregen.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey , Star Voter 2013 aka Shivok

I'd vote to leave the pregens as is at Lvls 1, 4 and 7.

This at least covers every tier. I dont like pregens in 7-11 tables but if needed to make the table go off so be it.

What I would like to see is all of the pregens statted out, this has been on the backburner for a while, so perhaps with volunteer help from some of the module/scenario writers this could alleviate the workload of the developers. Send out pregen creation guidelines to the select individuals and have the others critique the pregens work for accuracy. Make the changes to the pregens on the NPC Codex as required.

Have a developer review the final product and within 60 days you shall have your pregens.

*****

Rycaut wrote:
And on the most basic level I hope the new, revised Pregens have no technical mistakes - they don't have to be perfectly optimized but hopefully won't have outright mistakes.

I don't spot any so far, but I'm still a little bit sad that pregen Kyra in the codex is still prepping Cure spells, which she can spontaneously swap to, in her non-domain slots.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If they're meant for new characters, then they may not know about that ability. That's not the best reason, but it's an alright one.

****

I guess it is all about best use of resources. It has not proved practical to replace the APG iconics so clearly we don't have resources to burn.

If there were unlimited resources then we coud have more pre gens and have them faster. Given that we have already spent substantial resources on lvl 1, 4 & 7 there would have to be a pretty good reason to dump the 4s and 7s and replace them with 5s and NPC only 7s.

So as they have been invested in heavily I am glad that the 7s are here to stay.

So that leaves the question of would 5 be a better mid level than 4? Instinctively having a Mage with a lvl 3 spell is one of the things that separates mid from low. I like the idea and if it were to be done it woud have to be before the new lvl 4s come into play.

But

As Don points out the problem it that the lvl 3 modules that would be left without pre gens. This is a sticking point. If we need to support the entire range then 1 4 7 seems unavoidable.

W

Paizo Employee ** Developer

June Soler wrote:
What I would like to see is all of the pregens statted out, this has been on the backburner for a while, so perhaps with volunteer help from some of the module/scenario writers this could alleviate the workload of the developers. Send out pregen creation guidelines to the select individuals and have the others critique the pregens work for accuracy. Make the changes to the pregens on the NPC Codex as required.

We tried this exact thing almost 2 years ago; your 60-day estimate is inaccurate.

Development of statblocks often consists of rebuilding the stats from scratch using the turnover as a guideline, checking math as the developer goes and assessing each choice made along the way. Since statblocks take the same amount of time to develop as they do to design (when making NPCs; new monsters are different), the time needed to develop something that is only statblocks like the pregens is the same as writing them in the first place.

What happened before and what I don't want to repeat is a bunch of volunteers putting in time making pregens that then don't get developed, laid out, edited, or released due to lack of bacndwidth. That's a waste of our volunteers' time, and it's the main reason we built the design, development, layout, and editing of the 11 core iconics into the schedule and budget of NPC Codex. Now that those parts of the process are done, getting them adapted to the format of our other free PDF pregens are on the product schedule and resources will be allotted to them.

In the meantime, the existing 21 pregens available for free remain available as do an 14 previously unreleased Pathfinder Society-legal pregens can be found in the NPC Codex. In time, we'll have them available as free PDFs in event-organizer-friendly bundles and at 4th level as well. We appreciate the passion folks have for making the pregens as good as they can be for the betterment of the society as a whole, and we're listening to feedback. Processes are in motion, however, and changing course isn't always possible.

Thanks for your patience.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

For modules that include them, I see no reason not to allow the included pregens. Presumably, they are balanced for play with respect to the module they are included. Who cares if it's a 15 point-buy or 20? Or if the wealth of the pregen is slightly off from the WBL curve? They were included as a reasonably balanced built suited for play in that module, otherwise, why include them in the first place?

The pregens are intended to only fill one of two roles.
(1) To introduce new players to PFS. In this capacity, the pregens do not need to be a biggest, baddest guy on the block. They are all serviceable and support a fun game session for n00bs. It's an intro people, nothing more. They are not intended to demonstrate everything the game has to offer, just provide a general, overall experience. I challenge everyone that if YOU demonstrate friendly inclusiveness, and GM's encourage inclusiveness of the new player, the pregen is irrelevant as to whether or not said n00b joins our community or walks away.

(2) As a stop-gap for existing players who, for whatever reason, are trying to sit at a table that none of their PC's qualify for. Sorry, and this might be a harsh stance, but if you want to play that game, at that table, then organize your gameplay such that you qualify for it. Want to play high level? Earn it. That's what most of us do. Is your locale organizer not offering scenarios you can play? Get involved, assist the organizer in coordinating the venue, GM's, players, etc. and help shape your experience. In my experience, if you are forced to use a pregen in order to play more than a couple of times a year, then either you need to be more responsible with your game participation or your organizer is failing in their role. I just don't see a huge need to bend over backwards to accommodate exceptions-based play.

With only a few minor error corrections to the mechanical aspects of a couple pregens, what we have functions just fine for their purpose. And, *we* are getting a few more options with the inclusion of the NPC Codex. I hope that once those pregens are formatted and posted for download, we can finally put this ongoing, and exhausting argument about the pregens to bed.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston , Marathon Voter 2014 aka Netopalis

Bob Jonquet wrote:

For modules that include them, I see no reason not to allow the included pregens. Presumably, they are balanced for play with respect to the module they are included. Who cares if it's a 15 point-buy or 20? Or if the wealth of the pregen is slightly off from the WBL curve? They were included as a reasonably balanced built suited for play in that module, otherwise, why include them in the first place?

The pregens are intended to only fill one of two roles.
(1) To introduce new players to PFS. In this capacity, the pregens do not need to be a biggest, baddest guy on the block. They are all serviceable and support a fun game session for n00bs. It's an intro people, nothing more. They are not intended to demonstrate everything the game has to offer, just provide a general, overall experience. I challenge everyone that if YOU demonstrate friendly inclusiveness, and GM's encourage inclusiveness of the new player, the pregen is irrelevant as to whether or not said n00b joins our community or walks away.

(2) As a stop-gap for existing players who, for whatever reason, are trying to sit at a table that none of their PC's qualify for. Sorry, and this might be a harsh stance, but if you want to play that game, at that table, then organize your gameplay such that you qualify for it. Want to play high level? Earn it. That's what most of us do. Is your locale organizer not offering scenarios you can play? Get involved, assist the organizer in coordinating the venue, GM's, players, etc. and help shape your experience. In my experience, if you are forced to use a pregen in order to play more than a couple of times a year, then either you need to be more responsible with your game participation or your organizer is failing in their role. I just don't see a huge need to bend over backwards to accommodate exceptions-based play.

With only a few minor error corrections to the mechanical aspects of a couple pregens, what we have functions just fine for their purpose. And, *we* are getting a few more options...

I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with one thing here. At times, it is impossible to accommodate every player's level preference, especially in a local game. Let's say that you are going to a convention, you sign up for 3 level 5-7 games with a level 6 character, but you die on the second mission. What do you do for the third game? Do you give up the slot and the event ticket? Find a different table and hope that the rest of the group that signed up for it can wing it with one less member? Or do you let somebody play a pregen under the premise "Play, play, play"?

I also find it rather striking that those who are the most against the higher-level pregens and are the most in favor of playing higher and higher-level tables are also the ones who are the most vocal about high rates of player character death. Do you just not want to participate in many games? If the system has permanent player character death, then there needs to be some sort of a backup for situations like the above. Otherwise, the Society's ability to organize legal, high-level tables is severely compromised. Given the surprisingly low number of level 1 scenarios, this is a significant problem.

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I just don't see a huge need to bend over backwards to accommodate exceptions-based play.

Bob, I am confused by this comment and your statement on high level pregens in general. You make it sound like people are complaining that that want that ability to do so but they can't. As you know it is already allowed within the rules to play a level 7 Pregen and to get credit for it, so I am not sure how you see it as bending over backwards to allow accommodate something that is already being acomadated...? Really things just happen, it is rare but sometimes a player even at a well organized game may have to play a level 7 Pregen because something un predictable happened, it is neither the players fault or the organizers fault. When things like that happen it is great having those level 7 pregens as a last ditch option. In my experience it is not the players fault but just s@#! happening.

This whole idea you need to earn the right to play I have heard a few times here is a bit disturbing, and not what we should be putting forth as a social and gaming organization...IMO

I am not going to tell a player who signed up for a game that I organized, and then that day for whatever unforeseen reason I had to cancel and he has already played in the other scenario that is avaiable that he has a pc of level that he can't play the 7-11 game because he has not "earned that right".

I like you bob, you know but that has to be the most ridicules thing I have ever seen you say.

Netopalis wrote:
Or do you let somebody play a pregen under the premise "Play, play, play"?

Ahhhh!!!!!! *head explodes*

Play, Play, Play! Was taking out of the guide quite awhile ago, sorry if you don't get the head exploding reference ;)

Liberty's Edge ** Star Voter 2013

I vote nay. Ditto on what Don said.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
Not only that but you eliminate flexibility in allowing walk-ins to sit down at a 7-11 table, both locally and at large cons, where tickets = $$

How often do people pay for event tickets for a specific 7-11 scenario without having a level 7+ character (serious question)?

How does this demand weigh vs. the quality of experience provided by a table with those pregens?
Has anyone scheduled Eyes of the Ten and had to turn a player away who signed up without a level 12 character?

We shouldn't look for a solution for GenCon only.

I have a very small gaming group here that I try constantly to enlarge but the closest RPG shop is 100 miles away, the closest university 30 miles away. Players I recruit often have zero background in RPG and a few experienced players recently moved away due to the closure of a large company they worked for.

I'm in favour of level 7 pregens. They have been used a few times here at my local table. The important part is not banning them but educating when they are useful and when bettter to avoid them. Examples are:

a) Playing a tier 5-6. Having 3 players in that tier and a fourth player closing in but not there yet. In one case the character not yet level 5 was based on Kyra, in two other cases it was based on Merisiel. In all three cases the player was a less experienced player and having a level 7 in a tier 5-6 actually worked very well. A level 5 would not have been as good for these players as they are inexperienced.

b) Having had my fellow local GM and one of my level 7+ players move away and having had another 7+lvl player drop out for personal reasons (he likely will be back eventually) having a new experienced player use a lvl 7 pregen (Valeros) was the only valid way to get a table together.

c) Having scheduled a tier 7-8 game with 4 players and getting a cancelation half an hour ahead of the game resulted in a lvl 7 GM played pregen.

I try to push new players up to the higher tiers. I try to avoid high level pregen play. I try to encourage the local lvl 7+ players to do high level play at conventions and discourage low level play there. I do use the modules and just did Masks of the living Gods to ensure frequent players could play and get credit while new players got an important level towards the higher tier.

Please don't take away options that work well for some people because you have seen negative experience.


No.

Better to have people play play play pregens in higher level games than not play at all.

Talk about "earning the right to play" is silly posturing, IMHO... :)

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston , Marathon Voter 2014 aka Netopalis

Dragnmoon wrote:


Netopalis wrote:
Or do you let somebody play a pregen under the premise "Play, play, play"?

Ahhhh!!!!!! *head explodes*

Play, Play, Play! Was taking out of the guide quite awhile ago, sorry if you don't get the head exploding reference ;)

...

Wait, really?

*checks*

Oh. Sorry about that. I had seen it referenced on the forums and looked it up. While it may be out of the guide, though, isn't the core idea still a good one? Having more legal tables is better for the society.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia aka Marack

I do see the level 7 pregens used. I do not want them to go away, they are necessary. There were times at the my local convention where play happened that would not have without them. The players were competent and successful. It also showed them that higher level scenarios were really cool and caused someone that was constantly creating new characters to pick one and focus.

I don't support the idea that high tier play must be earned. It's just silly. Many of us have been in this hobby for decades before coming to PFS. I like the spread as it exists now. It covers the broadest range of scenarios and modules and not all modules come with pregens.

The only change I would have is to include pregens for all the classes. We are moving in a good direction with the NPC guide pregens being added. I feel that people would play higher level pregens more skillfully (which seems to be the complaint) if they are playing a class that they are familiar with.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter 2014

Kyle Baird wrote:
I'm wondering how pervasive this is. I personally have the exact opposite experience and would love to hear from others. Is this because of how the conventions are organized or are you bouncing around and filling in holes?

A little from column A a little from column b. I'm sure there is some other theoretical workaround where everyone gets to play, but it would probably take half an hour putting an entire room on the whiteboard filled in with their available characters, what scenarios they can play, and what scenarios they can run.

If the player isn't trying to keep you alive, that's a player problem not a pre gen problem. If anything I've seen people say "well i'm Kyra clone #428, you guys run i'll hold them off. "

If the pre gens can't contribute because their build is sub optimal (I'm looking at YOU valeros)then i would think the solution is better pregens.

The Exchange **

I agree with the fifth level pregen over the fourth.
I have personally seen terrible play from level seven pregens because people aren't experienced enough to use that level of character. They don't understand party tactics or their role and the role of other classes in combat and play.
Also the pregens are a little underpowered or off skew. If you ask me. Slight tweaking would be nice. Ex- why does the rogue not have weapon finesse? I mean come on.
If you were to keep the level sevens I say make it for the GM only. For those rare occasions you only have three PC's and have to run the scenario.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

DeathsRhand wrote:
Ex- why does the rogue not have weapon finesse? I mean come on.

...She doesn't? I don't have her in front of me, but not too long ago I ran a game with her and I seem to remember her having it.

Liberty's Edge *****

I understand the ocassional need for a level 7 pregen, and I think they should stay.

I also fully supposrt Kyle's suggestion of dropping level 4 pregens for level 5. Kyle lists very good reasons why it should be switched.

I guess I'm more 'meh' than yay or nay. :P

Edit:

OH! Also, before these new pregen are released, somebody make sure the person who is making the Valeros stat block knows how the TWF tree of feats works and knows the number of off-hand attacks they grant. The current level 7 Valeros only has TWF (no ITWF) and has 2 off-hand attacks.

The Exchange ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that Modules are a completely separate product line from PFS. A couple of years ago the decision was made to create chronicle sheets for the modules to "give players more opportunities to play their PFS characters." I can't put words in the mouths of Paizo employees but it seemed like a "we can add this little bonus for not much work" kind of situation. The PFS pregens are for just that; PFS. Modules are not PFS.

From a personal viewpoint, why would you want pregens in a module? Modules represent a significant investment of time and are not meant to be played in a standard 4-6 hour slot. It's more of a "Hey, we've all got 9th level characters, right? Let's play 'The Harrowing' next Wednesday and Thursday." I personally wouldn't want to play a pregen in a module, it's something for your character to experience.

Summary: Module chronicles were intended for when you would be playing the module anyway so there shouldn't be pregens for every module level.

51 to 100 of 103 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Society® / General Discussion / The Pregenerated Revolution - A Vote for Change All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.