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Your friends must not have good friends if they put up with this sort of treatment.
Gah! I'm washing my hands of this silliness.
Of course they put up with it. I do not say:"Use an mmo term and you're out. I say that they shouldn't use them for my mental health. And they comply. Plus not all friends are good players.
The term MOB, meaning 'Mobile Object' goes back to 1978.
1978.
Lets look at that year again...
1978.
To say that 'mob' as a term is new to the gaming table is just plain wrong, like 'Tank', the term has been around forever.
1978.
Does the word "mob" meaning "non-boss monster to kill" also date back to 1978? Probably not. Tank has been around since there have been objects referred to as tanks. Since some tanks are weapons, you can say that the word has been at the gaming table since the beginning, but the definition of the word has certainly changed.
The term "mob" is new to my gaming table. I prefer not to have my monsters referred to as mobs, especially in encounters with enemies of multiple types. It muddles communication. I'd rather have the player say "I'm attacking the bandit to my left," rather than "I attack one of the mobs." It's more precise and to the point and I don't need to ask for specifics. Makes for a smoother combat round.
Then it's about your preference for certain terms.
MOB - Mobile Object was a term used in MUD's back in 78, and shortly thereafter at Tabletops.
If you are attacking the Bandit to my left then I might well feel I am playing a WWII sim - 'Bandit' being the term for radar contact confirmed to be hostile to the pilot... hey that sounds just like... MOB!
I'd thus appreciate you no longer using the term BANDIT at the table, as it squarely belongs in WW2 flight sims. Please find another term.
Air Traffic Control: Bandits, to the south east, around 5 mile range.
Pilot: Tallyho old chap!
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Then it's about your preference for certain terms.
MOB - Mobile Object was a term used in MUD's back in 78, and shortly thereafter at Tabletops.
If you are attacking the Bandit to my left then I might well feel I am playing a WWII sim - 'Bandit' being the term for radar contact confirmed to be hostile to the pilot... hey that sounds just like... MOB!
I'd thus appreciate you no longer using the term BANDIT at the table, as it squarely belongs in WW2 flight sims. Please find another term.
Air Traffic Control: Bandits, to the south east, around 5 mile range.
Pilot: Tallyho old chap!
Your point being?
Your point being?
That your purist view of gaming terminology is flawed, and that gaming terminology is by and large about as pure as a bowl of poridge.
You define words as 'MMO' terms, yet some of those terms quite often pre-date MMO's, so you are misattributing them.
Whilst you have dressed up the dislike for the terms as being based in a desire to be inclusive, you have pretty much come out and just plain said its really because you dont like them, and are prepared to be exclusionary about it, to the point of punting players for doing it.
So it seems to me a bit of misplaced idealism, and a lack of historical understanding of both tabletop gaming and MUD/MMO language.
MMO language has been a feature of RPG tabletop games since prior to 1980.
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Your point being?That your purist view of gaming terminology is flawed, and that gaming terminology is by and large about as pure as a bowl of poridge.
You define words as 'MMO' terms, yet some of those terms quite often pre-date MMO's, so you are misattributing them.
Whilst you have dressed up the dislike for the terms as being based in a desire to be inclusive, you have pretty much come out and just plain said its really because you dont like them, and are prepared to be exclusionary about it, to the point of punting players for doing it.
So it seems to me a bit of misplaced idealism, and a lack of historical understanding of both tabletop gaming and MUD/MMO language.
MMO language has been a feature of RPG tabletop games since prior to 1980.
Maybe it was. Today, most of these terms have found their place in MMOs
Good riddance i say. I was born near the end of the 80s, so i was maybe spared of these terms being used in tabletop rpgs. I have encountered them extensively during my foray into MMO land. I dislike MMOs, i dislike the terminology. I don't want it at my table.Anyway, good night to all...
No worries.
I was gaming around 1982, and they were cropping up then.
Along with PbM games... the original Play-by-post... literally by mailing stuff, in envelopes!
If you do not like the way a person plays a game, you cannot change it by NOT playing with them.
Yes you can, you can argue with them on the internet until they give in and change their badwrongfun ways.
Your argument is flawed! No one ever changes their mind on the internet!
Falacy. PPOR.
Maybe it was. Today, most of these terms have found their place in MMOs
Good riddance i say. I was born near the end of the 80s, so i was maybe spared of these terms being used in tabletop rpgs. I have encountered them extensively during my foray into MMO land. I dislike MMOs, i dislike the terminology. I don't want it at my table.Anyway, good night to all...
Language changes over time. Gaming terms have bled into other hobbies and vice versa for as long as the hobby exists. Get over it.
Then it's about your preference for certain terms.
MOB - Mobile Object was a term used in MUD's back in 78, and shortly thereafter at Tabletops.
If you are attacking the Bandit to my left then I might well feel I am playing a WWII sim - 'Bandit' being the term for radar contact confirmed to be hostile to the pilot... hey that sounds just like... MOB!
I'd thus appreciate you no longer using the term BANDIT at the table, as it squarely belongs in WW2 flight sims. Please find another term.
Air Traffic Control: Bandits, to the south east, around 5 mile range.
Pilot: Tallyho old chap!
You're arguing apples and oranges. First, I've already said that the term mob hasn't ever cropped up at my table, despite your history lesson. Having gamed since 1980 and never having had the term crop up anywhere in my experience, I'm guessing it never really caught on much outside of MUDs.
As for bandits, if you're playing a fantasy role-playing game and get confused about whether "bandit" means a person who commits armed robbery or an enemy aircraft, I don't think it's my terminology that's to blame. On the other hand, "mob" is a vague term when there are numerous opponents of various types in the combat. I'm asking for a little specificity is all. Why this bothers you, I have no idea.
Of course they put up with it. I do not say:"Use an mmo term and you're out. I say that they shouldn't use them for my mental health. And they comply. Plus not all friends are good players.
Bad for your mental health?
I'm asking for a little specificity is all. Why this bothers you, I have no idea.
Ok "I attack that Mob to my left". By using Mob instead of Bandit, how is this any less clear or specific?
Why this bothers you, I have no idea.
Language changes over time. Gaming terms have bled into other hobbies and vice versa for as long as the hobby exists. Get over it.
Maybe it was. Today, most of these terms have found their place in MMOs
Good riddance i say. I was born near the end of the 80s, so i was maybe spared of these terms being used in tabletop rpgs. I have encountered them extensively during my foray into MMO land. I dislike MMOs, i dislike the terminology. I don't want it at my table.Anyway, good night to all...
The most illuminating single passage on language I've ever read comes from E. B. White:
"The living language is like a cowpath: it is the creation of the cows themselves, who, having created it, follow it or depart from it according to their whims or their needs. From daily use, the path undergoes change. A cow is under no obligation to stay in the narrow path she helped make, following the contour of the land, but she often profits by staying with it and she would be handicapped if she didn't know where it was or where it led to."
I'm asking for a little specificity is all. Why this bothers you, I have no idea.Ok "I attack that Mob to my left". By using Mob instead of Bandit, how is this any less clear or specific?
Why this bothers you, I have no idea.
Did you not see that in my example I was talking about encounters with multiple types of opponents?
Anyway, I just have one question for this thread: does ANYONE know where this "toon" term came from? It's going to bug me all week if no one tells me. :S
It came from the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" (1988).
It does seem rather appropriate for WoW characters.
Anyway, I just have one question for this thread: does ANYONE know where this "toon" term came from? It's going to bug me all week if no one tells me. :SIt came from the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" (1988).
It does seem rather appropriate for WoW characters.
I'm pretty sure it came from the earliest graphical representations of people in online worlds/communities, where they would literally be cartoon figures or drawings. While the avatars' graphical representations eventually outgrew the original nomenclature, it seems that the shortened version stuck.
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A square of cyberspace directly in front of him flipped sickeningly and he found himself in a pale blue graphic that seemed to represent a very spacious apartment, low shapes of furniture sketched in hair-fine lines of blue neon. A woman stood in front of him, a sort of glowing cartoon squiggle of a woman, the face a brown smudge.
Why does this come to mind...
A square of cyberspace directly in front of him flipped sickeningly and he found himself in a pale blue graphic that seemed to represent a very spacious apartment, low shapes of furniture sketched in hair-fine lines of blue neon. A woman stood in front of him, a sort of glowing cartoon squiggle of a woman, the face a brown smudge.Why does this come to mind...
Because it's quoted in the Wikipedia article on avatars?
That, or you've read Count Zero.
Did you not see that in my example I was talking about encounters with multiple types of opponents?
But apparently if they said, "I'll attack the one on the left" or "the dude on the left" or "the monster on the left" then all of those vague examples would be ok because they weren't from MMO's.
As long as they dont say Mob, all is good.
If all you are saying is you want your players to be specific as to their actions to avoid confusion, then fine, but this is about the use of 'mmo terms at the table'.
Despite the fact that terms like 'mob' predate the lives of half the people posting on this thread and were invented well before MMO's.
All further discussion in this thread should be carried out using various MMO and gaming terminology and internet shorthand. IMHO. LOL.
Did you not see that in my example I was talking about encounters with multiple types of opponents?But apparently if they said, "I'll attack the one on the left" or "the dude on the left" or "the monster on the left" then all of those vague examples would be ok because they weren't from MMO's.
As long as they dont say Mob, all is good.
If all you are saying is you want your players to be specific as to their actions to avoid confusion, then fine, but this is about the use of 'mmo terms at the table'.
Despite the fact that terms like 'mob' predate the lives of half the people posting on this thread and were invented well before MMO's.
None of those would be appropriate either, as any of them are too vague. My point being that as long as the target isn't the "BBEG," she'll revert to the vague, unsatisfying term "mob." I don't have this problem with any other players.
Never did I say, "players can call my monsters anything they want as long as they don't say 'mob.'" And perhaps that's the thing about MMO-speak that bothers me. Monsters cease to become recognizable opponents. They're relegated terms that describe their abilities or roles, like nothing else matters. That tends to suck the fun out of the game for a GM like me, when a vividly described and roleplayed scenario becomes nothing more than a tactical exercise where the opponents are nothing more than random targets.
I have to say, I do not think I'd make it in a game where the DM said we couldn't use terms from MMO's.
PC'd be out. NPC'd be out. Kite would be out, Tank would be out.. Healer would be out.
orc, goblin.. all those'd be out. Have seen those in MMO's too. Dang.
Sounds ridiculous until you realize that.. trying to figure out what is and isn't an "mmo term" is entirely and completely 100% subjective to the listener and to the speaker. SO basically it comes down to..
The person not wanting "words spoken" has to make out a list and players are forbidden to use.
No thank you. I won't use "bad words" if asked, or if there are children around/likely to be listening but asking me to audit my general gaming vocabulary because you can't be bothered to expand your own awareness of the changing face of the game isn't really going to cut it for me.
You demanding something be an MMO concept or idea, doesn't make it so.
You thinking it is bad doesn't make it so.
Rather than force your players to audit their vocabulary or face removal from your games you should instead work to expand your vocabulary..
And in NO WAY to I propose that D&D is or should be an MMO.
Let them try to kite if they want to. An intelligent foe might just pick someone else to attack..
-S
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I have to say, I do not think I'd make it in a game where the DM said we couldn't use terms from MMO's.
PC'd be out. NPC'd be out. Kite would be out, Tank would be out.. Healer would be out.
orc, goblin.. all those'd be out. Have seen those in MMO's too. Dang.
Sounds ridiculous until you realize that.. trying to figure out what is and isn't an "mmo term" is entirely and completely 100% subjective to the listener and to the speaker. SO basically it comes down to..
The person not wanting "words spoken" has to make out a list and players are forbidden to use.
No thank you. I won't use "bad words" if asked, or if there are children around/likely to be listening but asking me to audit my general gaming vocabulary because you can't be bothered to expand your own awareness of the changing face of the game isn't really going to cut it for me.
You demanding something be an MMO concept or idea, doesn't make it so.
You thinking it is bad doesn't make it so.Rather than force your players to audit their vocabulary or face removal from your games you should instead work to expand your vocabulary..
And in NO WAY to I propose that D&D is or should be an MMO.
Let them try to kite if they want to. An intelligent foe might just pick someone else to attack..-S
Funny, we were talking about slang terminology like Mob or Tank Or kite or cc. Not names for creatures. I do not want to expand my awareness with flimsy half-formed words that mangle the English language, like most of internet speak, and chat speak and other forms of idiotic ways to pronounce words...like lol speak. Those thinks can be fun, but not during a gaming session where people are trying to get into the role of their characters.
It drives me insane when i hear a player of mine tell the fighter to "kite" the BBEG, or when he says he is going to make a tank. Or when the wizard says that he wants to be good at cc (crowd control). I have told them to drop the terminology or find another GM. They have, thanfully stopped using it. With small relapses.
I don't care how much wow a week you play. I don't care how imprinted that terminology in your brain is. I don't care how cool it sounds to you. Use it at my table and you will be asked to either shut up or leave.
One of the main reasons i rarely ask consummate MMO players to join my table. It annoys me to no end.
I'd go the "Find another GM" route, and I don't even use those terms in my games. You just sound like kind of a Nofun McKillsagame.
As for "flimsy half-formed words that mangle the English language", I'd be tempted to rip your various posts apart for grammar, typographical, and usage errors, but that would make me a troll.
It drives me insane when i hear a player of mine tell the fighter to "kite" the BBEG, or when he says he is going to make a tank. Or when the wizard says that he wants to be good at cc (crowd control). I have told them to drop the terminology or find another GM. They have, thanfully stopped using it. With small relapses.
I don't care how much wow a week you play. I don't care how imprinted that terminology in your brain is. I don't care how cool it sounds to you. Use it at my table and you will be asked to either shut up or leave.
One of the main reasons i rarely ask consummate MMO players to join my table. It annoys me to no end.
I'd go the "Find another GM" route, and I don't even use those terms in my games. You just sound like kind of a Nofun McKillsagame.
As for "flimsy half-formed words that mangle the English language", I'd be tempted to rip your various posts apart for grammar, typographical, and usage errors, but that would make me a troll.
He already has said English is not his primary language and if he is using something incorrectly it is not intentional, so it would also be pointless.
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As for "flimsy half-formed words that mangle the English language", I'd be tempted to rip your various posts apart for grammar, typographical, and usage errors, but that would make me a troll.
Especially since he has stated he is not a native English speaker and would like errors pointed out so he can improve himself.
Funny, we were talking about slang terminology like Mob or Tank Or kite or cc. Not names for creatures. I do not want to expand my awareness with flimsy half-formed words that mangle the English language, like most of internet speak, and chat speak and other forms of idiotic ways to pronounce words...like lol speak. Those thinks can be fun, but not during a gaming session where people are trying to get into the role of their characters.
The thing is that most of those terms are derived from sources other than MMOs, were in use in various gaming circles for a long time, and in many cases pre-date the internet. MMOs have just provided a large focal point, just as the internet in general, to change the commonly used slang terms. This has given these terms a larger audience, making many of them new to you, but that doesn't mean these terms are specific to MMOs or do not apply, just that they are new to you.
Funny, we were talking about slang terminology like Mob or Tank Or kite or cc. Not names for creatures. I do not want to expand my awareness with flimsy half-formed words that mangle the English language, like most of internet speak, and chat speak and other forms of idiotic ways to pronounce words...like lol speak. Those thinks can be fun, but not during a gaming session where people are trying to get into the role of their characters.
Pretty much every word ever went through a phase where certain people would accuse it of being the downfall of Language X. Linguists, of course, laugh at this notion.
Anyway, I just have one question for this thread: does ANYONE know where this "toon" term came from? It's going to bug me all week if no one tells me. :SCould it be from this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toon_(role-playing_game)
I actualy think characters were called Toons...it was soo long ago though I don't remember.
Highly doubt it. Loved that game but the terminology did not really seem to translate and its important to note that the game itself was never a big success, kind of has cult status now along with Bunnies and Burrows but I don't think it was popular to be the origin of the term. Finally I don't recall any use of the term this far back...it just was not in the lexicon.
That said I'd love to find out where it originated. My pet theory is CCRPGs from the mid 90's but I don't really know.
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I'd go the "Find another GM" route, and I don't even use those terms in my games. You just sound like kind of a Nofun McKillsagame.
Well, you would have to ask my players then. They seem to have fun and rarely let me play, as they ALL claim that my GM-ing skills are superior to theirs, and that I'm a good storyteller. After every session, i ask if there was something wrong, some complaints and whether they had fun playing. Unless they are lying to me, they are.
I just have some principles that i hang on to and have no desire to stop doing so. I like myself the way i am, and though i see lot of room for improvement, letting others get away with crippling grammar and speech is one thing i will not.
letting others get away with crippling grammar and speech is one thing i will not.
But, again, no one seems to be crippled by them at all.
Except, perhaps, you.
I just have some principles that i hang on to and have no desire to stop doing so. I like myself the way i am, and though i see lot of room for improvement, letting others get away with crippling grammar and speech is one thing i will not.
Right, and as they know that the punishment for disagreeing with you or saying something you don't like is excommunication from the game table, what do reckon they might have to say when questioned about the game and their enjoyment?
Never did I say, "players can call my monsters anything they want as long as they don't say 'mob.'" And perhaps that's the thing about MMO-speak that bothers me. Monsters cease to become recognizable opponents. They're relegated terms that describe their abilities or roles, like nothing else matters.
I think the same thing about min/max optimisers, the nature of wargamers, and those that basically treat Pathfinder like a game of tactical minis. When you have people on these boards who point out that Roleplaying is not an essential part of Pathfinder (apparently it is not in the RAW, there are no roleplaying rules) then I'd say we need to move on and accept that some people play it very differently.
Mobs, mooks, minions, 'that orc'... same same, its not how I prefer to play, but it has little to nothing to do with MMO's or MMO terminology, it has been this way since the white box set.
Some players are vague and undescriptive, and it got WORSE when we started slapping miniatures on the mat.
Ironic that in a thread about communication people are jumping down Hama's throat about his attempt to express a dislike for lingo whose connotation implies mindless dumbed-down interactions. I'd be rather annoyed too if after all the hard work I put into characters and plot hooks my players only thought of the game as an offline MMO.
From what I've gathered, Hama's point is that he dislikes such terminology because (due to its common usage in the vernacular) it tends to set a particular "tone" or level of gameplay that is less than what he is hoping to achieve.
Maybe I've gotten spoiled by the level of immersion and roleplay possible in PbPs. If my player suddenly started seeing NPCs as merely quest-givers or limited their thinking and tactics to what they would use in an MMO, I'd be rather disappointed. If it persisted for a long time after me trying to coach the players to think more creatively and allow their characters to act in a more natural form, I'd probably call the game.
Even as good as I am with automation, any computer can handle number crunching far better/faster than I. If the entirety of the game got boiled down to merely being a battle simulation, then there would be no point to trying to build a collaborative story. That's where my resistance to introducing lots of jargon into the story comes from.
Therefore, since words are a reflection of thoughts, I can certainly appreciate the sentiment that Hama would prefer to avoid terms that tend to over-simplify...
A fair enough point that you raise, but I always find that the buiding of immersion starts with the GM.
Its like school, is it an unruly class, or a poor teacher?
Yep, it definitely starts with the GM. My understanding was that Hama's stance on jargon is his 'statement of expectations' for his table.
Part of the reason I find this interesting is due to timeliness...
A couple months ago, I learned that a friend of mine who has played MMOs for years had never had the opportunity to play and tabletop RPGs. (Thank you Jack Chick.) For his birthday then, I got him a copy of the core rulebook, and just last month restarted my local Pathfinder group to help him learn the ropes.
During character creation, he used many MMO terms like Tank, DPS, etc. trying to express to me as best he could various 'roles' or 'builds' that he might be interested in. He was sincerely trying to communicate using the most informative language he knew. While I've never played an MMO (I know myself well enough not to start), I have enough friends who do that I'm familiar with a good deal of the terminology.
As part of the teaching/learning process, I've found that it's important to... 'uncompress' the mindset that relies upon such terms. Let's face it, if you are playing a cooperative game where one of your teammates will die in a few moments if you don't communicate and act very quickly, acronyms and jargon can save a lot of anguish over character death and wasting several hours of your life on a failed raid/mission. I played FPSes competitively for many years and I can appreciate the need for fast, efficient communication.
However, not only is that not necessary around the kitchen/coffee table, it can be as detrimental to the roleplaying/immersion aspect of a tabletop game as someone queuing up YouTube videos on their laptop. Basically then, I've found that a good part of the 'teaching' that I'm doing (he and I are both 35 btw, not little kids) is not only teaching rules mechanics but also getting him to realize that thinking outside the box is beneficial and encouraged.
I'd argue that in a very real sense an over-reliance on using jargon to define all your tactics not only cheapens the quality of the shared narrative, but it tends to limit your thinking to that very box you need to think outside of.
Thus far I'm happy to say that my new player is learning the game quite well and having a blast. He actually invited me to come out to an LGS on Free RPG Day... I didn't even know there were any left in Charlotte! So yeah, he's definitely loving it and fitting in well with other established tabletop gamers already. :)
So to use your school example, I'd definitely agree that it is important that a GM is willing to attempt to be a good teacher. Where there's a will there's a way, right?
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Practice what you preach.
Obviously, you do not read my posts unless there is something that you disagree with in there. English is not my primary language. Actually, my primary language is so different then English that there is no comparison between the two.
I have expressed the desire to clean up my English and make it better.
You have no way to prove that. Do not base your arguments off of flawed logic. Just because something could happen, does not mean it will. Time to take a step back and reflect. If you wish to isolate yourself from your friends, that is your choice. Many people here are forgiving enough to let words like 'tank' slide.
It has happened a few times already. I came to GM a good story i made over three weeks, just to find out they wanted to play MMO on paper. I am not playing with those groups any more. I like to differentiate my tabletop RPG experience from a video game thank you very much. If i wanted to play a video game, i would have been sitting in my home, alone, and playing a video game.
You are forgiving enough, i have learned that some things should not be allowed. It makes for a better game. No player has yet left my group for asking them not to use MMO terminology.
Someone out there disagrees with you.
I don't care. I haven't played DDO much so i can't say how much D&D lingo is in there, and i haven't played champions online at all.
When my players use MMO terms for things in my game, it just kills immersion for me. And how can i provide immersion if i do not feel that i am in the game?
I think the same thing about min/max optimisers, the nature of wargamers, and those that basically treat Pathfinder like a game of tactical minis. When you have people on these boards who point out that Roleplaying is not an essential part of Pathfinder (apparently it is not in the RAW, there are no roleplaying rules) then I'd say we need to move on and accept that some people play it very differently.
Mobs, mooks, minions, 'that orc'... same same, its not how I prefer to play, but it has little to nothing to do with MMO's or MMO terminology, it has been this way since the white box set.
Some players are vague and undescriptive, and it got WORSE when we started slapping miniatures on the mat.
Maybe i should have called the thread Stupid dumbed-down terminology in RPGs?
Right, and as they know that the punishment for disagreeing with you or saying something you don't like is excommunication from the game table, what do reckon they might have to say when questioned about the game and their enjoyment?
Proper speech is important to me. It always has been, and thankfully i have been blessed with educated players. There is one guy in my game who speaks english really bad and is annoyed when i read english descriptions he can't understand. But he started going to some classes to understand it better. I do not punt a player from the game if he slips and says 'mob' or 'tank'. I ask them not to do it. And if they deliberately use it afterwards because they think that i am intruding on their freedom somehow by politely requesting that they use proper language, they can go be free somewhere else.
If they don't like me or the way i GM, they can go find another game. There are plenty of player-starved GMs in my city. Just waiting for somebody. Since they stay, it is obvious that they like me and my GMing style.
A fair enough point that you raise, but I always find that the buiding of immersion starts with the GM.
Of course it does. But, how can a GM achieve immersion if his players are treating the game like a video game?
I know there are video games that provide great immersion, but we are talking MMOs here. A game where you get ostracized, demeaned and called a f~+ if your 'build' is not up to par. God forbid if you want to RP some.Just to note, I love video games and play them frequently. For the story. I love a good story in a video game.
@KaeYoss
Nobody is at fault. One person doesn't understand how the term "tank" is applied to Pathfinder. A simple, 5 second explanation and everyone knows what's up and continue playing the game.
And then? What version will be used? Theirs, or the proper one?