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Where's the higher level cap?


Mythic Adventures Playtest General Discussion

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I remember in discussions about going past 20th level ("epic levels"), somebody like James Jacobs would say something like: "That would be in a future book called Mythic Adventures."

I don't see anything about going beyond level 20 in this playtest.

Quite frankly, while the mythic idea is interesting, I don't think this is the book for 21+ level characters everybody has been waiting for.

So far, I'm disappointed.


Where it belongs.


Lord Embok wrote:
Where it belongs.

Which is where?


The Mythic rules are meant to be a replacement for the epic rules of old. These are meant to give you the boost in power needed to fight super high CR foes without the silliness of just adding a bazillion more levels. This has been stated on the forums many times in regards to this playtest. There will be no level 21+ play because with this book you won't need to go past level 20, just add Mythic Tiers.


James Jacobs said they weren't going to do post lvl 20. For the rules for higher powered games is Mythic Adventures.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Going beyond level 20 was probably the original idea that grew into what is now Mythic Adventures, because that's how the 3.0 epic rules were, and Mythic Adventures was conceived to b Pathfinder's version of those rules. However, some time during the development, it seems, it was decided that characters should not advance into mythic territory by simply extending the level scale past level 20 by these rules, but laterally, independent of character level. In this way, the rules are appealing to more people, as most people I know of don't play in these high level ranges, that "21+ Level" rules would ever become relevant. I certainly wouldn't, on a regular basis. Mythic Adventures, however, is designed so the rules can be used at any character level and still impart an epic feel to your campaign.

In short, I think this is the book. I don't think you should hold your breath for a book with "21+ level" rules, because that's probably not coming.

My tip for you is: just read the playtest document completely. This is a far more interesting concept than just extending the level scale upwards as the 3.0 epic rules did, without really adding anything besides ridiculous stuff with high numbers. (Escape Artist DC 100 to squeeze through a wall of force! Whee!)

Shadow Lodge

There's also no reason that in your home games you can't treat Mythic Tiers as epic levels. That's what I'm planning to do in my Kingmaker game - when players level up, they can choose to take a Mythic tier "level" in place of a class level; once they have all 20 levels of base classes, they continue to advance exclusively through Mythic until they reach 10th tier or the campaign ends.

Admittedly not the standard way the system is used, but no less viable.

In either case, it DOES allow characters to challenge opponents normally beyond their caliber. A party of 20th/10 mythic characters is supposed to be able to challenge anything short of true deities, who all hover around the CR Mid-30s range. So in a sense, yes, it does extend the game up into post-20th level challenges. It also allows lower-level characters to go up against challenges they normally wouldn't be able to face, by making the option for Mythic available at all levels, instead of strictly post-20th.


Mythic Adventures does effectively give you 10 extra levels to play with -- it is just that those levels are interpolated into the standard 20 level progression as desired instead of necessarily being appended to the end.

It will be interesting to see what happens when some 3rd party publisher combines the finaly Mythic Adventure rules with their own rules for play at level 21+. One product that statted out deities as 30 or 40 hit die monsters should certainly be revised to give each such deity all 10 mythic tiers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

The cap is still 20. Now however you can have extra stuffing in that 20 level sandwich by including mythic layers. in conjunction with those 20 levels.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
darth_borehd wrote:

I remember in discussions about going past 20th level ("epic levels"), somebody like James Jacobs would say something like: "That would be in a future book called Mythic Adventures."

I don't see anything about going beyond level 20 in this playtest.

Quite frankly, while the mythic idea is interesting, I don't think this is the book for 21+ level characters everybody has been waiting for.

So far, I'm disappointed.

Not "everyone" has been waiting for a 20+ level book.

Instead, Paizo has done what they've done well before. take the entire concept on it's backside and do something completely different with it.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future, but they do allow us to play with the game in a new and interesting way, allowing you to stretch out the power and play a bit further if you desire.

If you had your heart set on levels 21-50, this book is not the one you are looking for. If you are instead interested in seeing what a character with exception powers and abilities can do, regardless of level, Mythic Adventures it the book for you.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future, but they do allow us to play with the game in a new and interesting way, allowing you to stretch out the power and play a bit further if you desire.

If you had your heart set on levels 21-50, this book is not the one you are looking for. If you are instead interested in seeing what a character with exception powers and abilities can do, regardless of level, Mythic Adventures it the book for you.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I'd like to see just another 10 levels. Any more than that is just sillyness. I don't think Mythic Adventures is the place to add that, but it would be a good jumping point in the future. With 10 more levels and 10 Mythic tiers, you're still punching CR 40s in the teeth. I honestly never saw the need to go much higher than that in Epic play. Everything broke down too fast anyways in Epic. Especially where casters were concerned.

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future

Just my opinion but at this point doing Epic rules after releasing this seems somwewhat redundant since it will have two rules systems trying to do essentially the same thing.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future, but they do allow us to play with the game in a new and interesting way, allowing you to stretch out the power and play a bit further if you desire.

If you had your heart set on levels 21-50, this book is not the one you are looking for. If you are instead interested in seeing what a character with exception powers and abilities can do, regardless of level, Mythic Adventures it the book for you.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

That is good to hear. I would like to see level 21-30, 50 might be too game breaking in my honest opinion. Now this being said I am willing to give mythic a try. I just hope to see level 21+ rules sometime in the near future if possible.

Thanks Jason Bulmahn,
-Hexen


Kevin Mack wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future

Just my opinion but at this point doing Epic rules after releasing this seems somwewhat redundant since it will have two rules systems trying to do essentially the same thing.

This is why I was going to shy away from even using the mythic, however from what I have heard, you can have mythic ranks even though you are level 1, so I don't see that as being redundant, I keep hearing people saying you should treat these as level 21-30 rules by a different name, but in all honesty they are not, not by any real means of observation.

Designer

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MalignantMind wrote:
Everything broke down too fast anyways in Epic. Especially where casters were concerned.

The math is already pretty wobbly for levels 16–20; even if you just add 10 levels and say "30 is the limit, no more!," you're still going to have broken math at levels 21–30.

Which is why we're doing mythic the way it is.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
MalignantMind wrote:
Everything broke down too fast anyways in Epic. Especially where casters were concerned.

The math is already pretty wobbly for levels 16–20; even if you just add 10 levels and say "30 is the limit, no more!," you're still going to have broken math at levels 21–30.

Which is why we're doing mythic the way it is.

Sean - I've seen you reference this "broken math" several times. To what exactly are you referring? Also ... there will be some people who will want to push the level envelope a little. Just a little.

Folks - if you don't want to push characters past level 20/10 mythic tiers ... DON'T. If you want to add 5-7 levels, DO IT ... Pathfinder gives some basic ideas for that in the Core Rulebook.

The Mythic rules look great and I DOUBT adding 5-6 levels and creating a 26th level/10th tier character will cause that much hand wringing and ruination.

At the end of the day, respect the mechanics and gameplay guys like Jason & Sean are creating ... but remember that a few house rules are OK! Be confident in managing or respecting the spirit of the rules without becoming their prisoner.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That "wobbly math" is precisely the reason I'm doing a baseline test on 20th level characters before adding mythic tiers to them: the top-end of the game doesn't track perfectly with the progressions seen in the lower levels. If 20th level characters can handle eight encounters before needing to rest, that's useful data to have. If it's actually trivial to fight CR 22, that's useful data to have. If every single CR 25 encounter you can devise results in a TPK, that's useful data to have. Only after knowing those things can you properly determine what effect adding mythic tiers has on an adventuring party.

I'm not assuming the game works as it always has at 20th level, because I have relatively little experience playing at that level of power (compared to the number of 1st to 9th level characters I've played or GMd for). And I'm given to understand that's true for most people.

Osirion

Exemple of broken maths ?
Here is my example :
In my old D&D 3.X Campaign, I had two players with these characters :
A human paladin and an elven monk. Both were level 29 at the end of my campaign.
The paladin could hit most monsters, but his AC was so low that the monsters couldn't miss him except on natural 1.
On the other hand, the monk had an AC 25 points higher than the Paladin, and could only be hit by a natural 20, but his BAB was so low that he could only hit most monsters on a natural 20.

The paladin's BAB was actually higher than his own AC. And the monk had an AC about 25 points higher than his BAB.

That is the kind of broken maths you can find at such high levels.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm sure that some people were waiting for a book with ten more levels. I certainly wasn't.

The Epic Level Handbook did one thing and, to be frank, not very well. This opens up a lot of avenues, like the obvious 3.5 Epic game (with 20 levels followed by 10 ranks) or fully Mythic campaign (gaining the first rank early and keeping pace through the levels) or even just marking the "Chosen Ones" with a single rank.

It's also a toolbox for making sweet monsters and villains for non-Mythic games. And a handy way to DMs to tune their low-level games from "heroes" to "big damn heroes." And makes me want to run an E6 game where everything after sixth level has to be Mythic.

I'm just not sorry in the slightest that this is more than an Epic Level Handbook. That said, I still hope you find some stuff in there you like! Best of luck!

Cheers!
Landon

Cheliax

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"The math is broken" basically kicks in once your die roll becomes less important to success or failure on something than how many modifiers you can pack together. You can "break" Intimidate as soon as 4th level even without trying that hard (Half-Orc Inquisitor).

I for one liked the idea of capping it out at 36th level for a bit of the OD&D feel. My only real issue with Mythic thus far is it doesn't quite give me what I'm looking for when it comes to Geb and Nex and Tar-Baphon. Maybe with a Mythic Lich template, but still, Wizard 20/Archmage 10 doesn't look like what I expect from mages so mighty their names are to be known throughout history.

Designer

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Derron42 wrote:
Sean - I've seen you reference this "broken math" several times. To what exactly are you referring? Also ... there will be some people who will want to push the level envelope a little. Just a little.

What other people said, plus the disparity between your good saves and your bad saves starts to create situations where:

* the fighter only fails a Fort save on a 1 but only succeeds at a Will or Reflex save on a 20
* the wizard only makes Ref and Fort on a 20 but only fails Will on a 1
* etc. etc.

Which means that a saving throw effect is guaranteed to not affect some characters and guaranteed to affect other characters. So battles become a balance between "should I use a Reflex effect that'll kill the wizard, harm the fighter and cleric, and do nothing to the rogue, or should I use a Will effect that'll destroy the fighter and rogue but do nothing to the wizard and cleric?"

And if you scale up bonuses past level 20, they either (a) progress at a flat rate, which means you continue the existing problem, or (b) they scale up even farther than before, exacerbating the problem, or even (c) you plug in weird numbers to reverse this problem, which means the wizard is getting better at Fort faster than the fighter and the cleric is getting better at Ref faster than the rogue, which is contrary to how it should work.

Grand Lodge

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future, but they do allow us to play with the game in a new and interesting way, allowing you to stretch out the power and play a bit further if you desire.

If you had your heart set on levels 21-50, this book is not the one you are looking for. If you are instead interested in seeing what a character with exception powers and abilities can do, regardless of level, Mythic Adventures it the book for you.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

That is good to hear. I would like to see level 21-30, 50 might be too game breaking in my honest opinion. Now this being said I am willing to give mythic a try. I just hope to see level 21+ rules sometime in the near future if possible.

Thanks Jason Bulmahn,
-Hexen

50 is POSSIBLY game breaking?!? Sorry, but the game ALREADY breaks at 15+ at moderate system mastery and even sooner at good system mastery. Level 21+ is just...bad bad news. I think the mytic system is a great way to deal with epic adventures and characters.


Kvantum wrote:
I for one liked the idea of capping it out at 36th level for a bit of the OD&D feel. My only real issue with Mythic thus far is it doesn't quite give me what I'm looking for when it comes to Geb and Nex and Tar-Baphon. Maybe with a Mythic Lich template, but still, Wizard 20/Archmage 10 doesn't look like what I expect from mages so mighty their names are to be known throughout history.

I second the desire to see how these rules will be used for beings like Nex and Geb. Speaking of Geb (and the tale about the Field of Maidens), I was hoping to see a Mythic Flesh to Stone spell with a Greater version that turned it into a massive area effect spell. Sadly, no dice. Obviously, the list of spells in the playtest document isn't complete. Here's hoping for Greater Mythic Flesh to Stone for the finished product.

Silver Crusade

Personally, I am very happy with the direction Paizo is going with Mythic.

However if someone wants to play past level 20, there is already third party support for it..


Cold Napalm wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

James' early comments about Mythic were well before the idea was fully fleshed out and he spoke in error about the term. Mythic rules do not preclude us from doing epic in the future, but they do allow us to play with the game in a new and interesting way, allowing you to stretch out the power and play a bit further if you desire.

If you had your heart set on levels 21-50, this book is not the one you are looking for. If you are instead interested in seeing what a character with exception powers and abilities can do, regardless of level, Mythic Adventures it the book for you.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

That is good to hear. I would like to see level 21-30, 50 might be too game breaking in my honest opinion. Now this being said I am willing to give mythic a try. I just hope to see level 21+ rules sometime in the near future if possible.

Thanks Jason Bulmahn,
-Hexen

50 is POSSIBLY game breaking?!? Sorry, but the game ALREADY breaks at 15+ at moderate system mastery and even sooner at good system mastery. Level 21+ is just...bad bad news. I think the mytic system is a great way to deal with epic adventures and characters.

I think there can be some new content that can fix current higher level content. Feats come to mind first, but that actually have to be worth taking. Say a fighter only feat that ups their reflex and will saves, but also grants some other useful effect, and additional effects if they have other feats upping their fort and/or reflex saves. Spells would be another avenue. Similar things could be done for all the other classes, but it would take doing things that would not be all the elegant.

Also, if the game shows content to 20, and if you can't get to that point, then the game is broken. It is like playing a video game that has a level cap, but have the game break when you hit 1/2 way there. If this is the actual situation, then maybe it is time to scrap the current book and go for Pathfinder 2, as this wasn't properly handeled with the first.

Have you even played to level 20? I understand that on paper it might not look good but my group has now twice over the play-test and our first double campaign. We had problems with house rules, but not so much with other aspects, other than perhaps combination of Use Magical Device skill, Non-magical Magic item crafting, Leadership, and Item Creation feats rules. Saves specifically was mitigated with spells and magic items. Perhaps our GM was dealing with us with kid gloves, but it didn't feel like it.

Grand Lodge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Derron42 wrote:
Sean - I've seen you reference this "broken math" several times. To what exactly are you referring? Also ... there will be some people who will want to push the level envelope a little. Just a little.

What other people said, plus the disparity between your good saves and your bad saves starts to create situations where:

* the fighter only fails a Fort save on a 1 but only succeeds at a Will or Reflex save on a 20
* the wizard only makes Ref and Fort on a 20 but only fails Will on a 1
* etc. etc.

Which means that a saving throw effect is guaranteed to not affect some characters and guaranteed to affect other characters. So battles become a balance between "should I use a Reflex effect that'll kill the wizard, harm the fighter and cleric, and do nothing to the rogue, or should I use a Will effect that'll destroy the fighter and rogue but do nothing to the wizard and cleric?"

And if you scale up bonuses past level 20, they either (a) progress at a flat rate, which means you continue the existing problem, or (b) they scale up even farther than before, exacerbating the problem, or even (c) you plug in weird numbers to reverse this problem, which means the wizard is getting better at Fort faster than the fighter and the cleric is getting better at Ref faster than the rogue, which is contrary to how it should work.

Actually there is an easy fix. Soft cap BAB, skills and saves. I housed ruled this in 3.5 and it works. For example all classes BAB could soft cap at +25 but as you raise levels the BAB bonus could continue to increase in you second, third, and fourth attacks until they also reach +25.

For example
Fighter
Level
20 +20/+15/+10/+5
21 +21/+16/+11/+6
22 +22/+17/12/+7
23 +23/+18/+13/+8
24 +24/+19/+14/+9
25 +25/+20/+15/+10
26 +25/+21/+16/+11
27 +25/+22/+17/+12
28 +25/+23/+18/+13
29 +25/+24/+19/+14
30 +25/+25/+20/+15

Like wise saves can soft cap at +15, eventually your low save will catch up to your high one. Neat trick, huh.

Designer

That is actually a variant of (c) the wizard is getting better at Fort faster than the fighter and the cleric is getting better at Ref faster than the rogue, which is contrary to how it should work. As in "In ten levels, the fighter's Fort save only increased by 3 and the rogue's Fort save increased by 9."

Grand Lodge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
That is actually a variant of (c) the wizard is getting better at Fort faster than the fighter and the cleric is getting better at Ref faster than the rogue, which is contrary to how it should work. As in "In ten levels, the fighter's Fort save only increased by 3 and the rogue's Fort save increased by 9."

I disagree it's not at all a variation of (c). the wizard is getting better at the same rate as he always has there is just a cap at how good he can get. To me that's completely different then the wizard getting faster progression at higher levels.

But it's fine, sometimes you have find support from third party companies or do it yourself. I was just suggesting a system that works, I'm not saying you have to like it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I see where you're coming from, ZN. I actually quite like that - it would mean that (hypothetically), any level 45 character has +15 in all save categories, regardless of their class levels, and any level 50 character has a BAB of +25. Would you still cap attacks per round at their current levels, or would iteratively go to 4 for all classes? And should this discussion get the heck away from this part of the forum?

Grand Lodge

Chemlak wrote:
I see where you're coming from, ZN. I actually quite like that - it would mean that (hypothetically), any level 45 character has +15 in all save categories, regardless of their class levels, and any level 50 character has a BAB of +25. Would you still cap attacks per round at their current levels, or would iteratively go to 4 for all classes? And should this discussion get the heck away from this part of the forum?

I capped at 4 attacks for all classes. I also stopped progression at level 40, the players where considered demi-gods at that level.

Yep, this is the mythic play-test not my zany ideas thread.

Designer

Zombie Ninja wrote:
I disagree it's not at all a variation of (c). the wizard is getting better at the same rate as he always has there is just a cap at how good he can get. To me that's completely different then the wizard getting faster progression at higher levels.

That just means you're sort-of correcting the problem at level 30, and the problem is still in effect at levels 21-29. And it means that everyone ends up with the same save bonus at level 30, no class is any better at a particular kind of save, it's just dependent on ability scores and magic items... so you've spent 10 levels undoing the class paradigm that's held for the first 20 levels.

You'd actually need to fix how the progression is at level 1-20, anything done at 21-30 is just a bandaid.

But if it works for you, go for it. :)

Grand Lodge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Zombie Ninja wrote:
I disagree it's not at all a variation of (c). the wizard is getting better at the same rate as he always has there is just a cap at how good he can get. To me that's completely different then the wizard getting faster progression at higher levels.

That just means you're sort-of correcting the problem at level 30, and the problem is still in effect at levels 21-29. And it means that everyone ends up with the same save bonus at level 30, no class is any better at a particular kind of save, it's just dependent on ability scores and magic items... so you've spent 10 levels undoing the class paradigm that's held for the first 20 levels.

You'd actually need to fix how the progression is at level 1-20, anything done at 21-30 is just a bandaid.

But if it works for you, go for it. :)

I can't disagree with you, there is a need to bandaid the system past level 20. You're right in that you must make corrections for the math, but isn't that exactly what mythic rules are doing. It's adding on a sub-system that allows you to make more powerful characters by bypassing the the current class structure system. Perhaps that's why I'm not warming up to mythic rules, because it bypasses the current class, feat, archetype systems put in place. Every-time you do something like that it feels hit or miss, words of power comes to mind (some like it some don't.) What can I say, I'm trying to like mythic, but it feel so tacked on. Still I think I should just stop there reevaluate and give it more of a fair shot.


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I personally would like to see Paizo's version of post-20 play. I see Mythic as a supplement, not a replacement for such.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Derron42 wrote:
Sean - I've seen you reference this "broken math" several times. To what exactly are you referring? Also ... there will be some people who will want to push the level envelope a little. Just a little.

What other people said, plus the disparity between your good saves and your bad saves starts to create situations where:

* the fighter only fails a Fort save on a 1 but only succeeds at a Will or Reflex save on a 20
* the wizard only makes Ref and Fort on a 20 but only fails Will on a 1
* etc. etc.

Which means that a saving throw effect is guaranteed to not affect some characters and guaranteed to affect other characters. So battles become a balance between "should I use a Reflex effect that'll kill the wizard, harm the fighter and cleric, and do nothing to the rogue, or should I use a Will effect that'll destroy the fighter and rogue but do nothing to the wizard and cleric?"

And if you scale up bonuses past level 20, they either (a) progress at a flat rate, which means you continue the existing problem, or (b) they scale up even farther than before, exacerbating the problem, or even (c) you plug in weird numbers to reverse this problem, which means the wizard is getting better at Fort faster than the fighter and the cleric is getting better at Ref faster than the rogue, which is contrary to how it should work.

Thanks for that. That makes a lot of sense to me.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

While I admit I was curious to see how Paizo would handle the post 20th level stuff, I am not at all sorry to see this is not a Epic Clone book. I like how they have approched the whole issue of an optional change in power levels. As to specific issues, Playtest will show me, but overall I like the offered ideas.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The way I came up with for a soft cap is you calculate your saves and BAB etc normally.

However if they are above a figure (I.e the full progression in 3.5 epic) they are capped.

So yes you can go full wizard but your saves and BAB are lower then someone who took fighter at some point.

Another similar thing is the gestalt rules. Every extra level is a level in one of the classes that make up the gestalt.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Zombie Ninja wrote:
I disagree it's not at all a variation of (c). the wizard is getting better at the same rate as he always has there is just a cap at how good he can get. To me that's completely different then the wizard getting faster progression at higher levels.

That just means you're sort-of correcting the problem at level 30, and the problem is still in effect at levels 21-29. And it means that everyone ends up with the same save bonus at level 30, no class is any better at a particular kind of save, it's just dependent on ability scores and magic items... so you've spent 10 levels undoing the class paradigm that's held for the first 20 levels.

You'd actually need to fix how the progression is at level 1-20, anything done at 21-30 is just a bandaid.

But if it works for you, go for it. :)

We didn't find the majority of our game to have any high level math problems that can be mentioned. My GM is discussing it HERE if you want to talk to him.


I posted this on another thread but my idea was to break out a bigger die D30 from 21-30 d40 etc... granted they are hard to come by but supply and demand and what have you


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't see a need for 20+ levels. Mythic is just brilliant! It allows you to take group who may be level 20, give them a Mythic tiers and effectively play another 15-20 levels equivalent in game time. That's how long I think it would take to move up all 10 tiers based on how Greater Trials are described. At the same time you aren't required to level 20 acquire mythic tiers. You could start at level 1 and by level 20 be tier 10. This gives great flexibility as the system can be used by those looking play their level 20 characters but also allow those who never get beyond level 10 to make use of this book. As well I like how Mythic can be granted and taken away so you aren't stuck with it if you introduce it in a low level game.

Also nothing say you can use the rules suggestions in core book for beyond level 20. Simplest being pick prestige class or another class.


Actually, I like the approach of the Mythic rules to solving the high level breakdown dilemma. It bypassed the level system, which is probably essential to solving the math issues without doing stuff like capping bonuses or changing their progressions (which always feels artificial and leads to class convergence - something I dislike).

Mythic rules are conceptually a great solution to these issues. They don't change existing class progression, they avoid capstone issues (which I have been warning about as posing a challenge to levels beyond 20 since the original alpha playtest) and they don't require the rebuilding of a character with different rules for high-powered play. In other words, the mythic solution seems awesome. Now let's playtest these rules to make sure that they work just as well in practice.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Were I looking to start a new campaign rather than retro fit a long-running off & on high level campaign to Pathfinder, I might find Mythic a good fit for high level (post 20) play. For what I currently need, however, it will mostly be mined for ideas and possibly for epic monster stats.

It's an excellent marketing choice for Paizo and I do like a lot of the concepts that went into it, so I've no doubt I'll pick it up when it comes out. I may even try to victimize one of my tabletop groups with a playtest if we can find the time, given the holidays.

I hope that it does well enough that Paizo considers doing additional support, including true high level play, Paizo-flavored Legacy Weapons, and Ascension / De-Ascension rules, and various GM & Player supplements for suggestions on overcoming challenges for different levels of play (though I'm also some of which may be included in Ultimage Campaign).

-TimD


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I would really like a book to support levels 21 to 50 (and beyond). I think Paizo has all that is needed to make a working epic system.

Shadow Lodge

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Heladriell wrote:
I would really like a book to support levels 21 to 50 (and beyond). I think Paizo has all that is needed to make a working epic system.

Level 50, working, in a d20 system? * snorts *

Osirion Contributor

I love high level play, but there are some definite math issues. When success or failure is largley determined by rolling a d20, having a +40 starts to result in weird dynamics. The game quickly becomes either a cakewalk for PCs, or impossible for PCs. It takes a lot of houseruling and fudging to make the game exciting and fun.

Having said that, the core rules already allow us levels above 20 if we want. Also the 3.0 Epic book gives some basic system help that keeps the game from breaking down too quickly, but it's imperfect.

My idea for a higher than 20th level game is to simply add remaining tiers as levels (they won't always accomplish those challenges in line with gaining a level), and using core and 3.0 guidelines for progressions beyond 20th level.

Recall also that you can use different experience progression to pace your games as you see fit. SO if you don't want to get to 20th level ever, use a slower progression. If tiers get them past 20th, use the fast progression and make tiers 6-10 actual epic levels, allowing them epic mythic spells and such.

Osirion Contributor

oh. A great remark about folks wanting level 21-50 is that between 3.0 Epic and Pathfinder core/mythic adventures, you can play a system to whatever levels you want. Maybe most of us scratch our head at the idea of a 40th level character, but the important thing is your table can play whatever levels they want. They system might get shaky after 16-18, and really become ethereal at 24-25, but if you want it, enjoy it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Mythic rules kind of remind me of the E6 rules, too. Theoretically, you could have 6th level PCs taking on CR 16 critters using 10 mythic tiers. Or 3rd level PCs taking on CR 8 critters with 5 mythic levels, etc. etc.

Could lead to some interesting gritty situations.


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I'll sum up my points before launching into my wall of text:

1) Attack and save bonuses don't have to increase past 20th level to make play beyond 20th level interesting. Levels beyond 20 can instead grant abilities that are greater in scope and consequence than those gained pre-20.

2) Epic-level play in 3rd was, in part, about breaking the rules: getting saves against spells that don't allow them, affecting undead with mind-affecting spells, etc.

3) Even if some numbers shouldn't increase beyond 20th, the scope of what PCs can do and affect *should*.

4) If NPCs are capable of doing something in your fantasy world, PCs should, given enough time and effort, be able to do the same.

5) Play above 20th level is fun and should be supported by rules in Pathfinder.

First, I agree that the 3.0 ELH had math problems as levels increased, though the same problems (particularly attack bonus rapidly outpacing armor class) existed pre-epic, as well. This said, there were options presented in the book that I've yet to see supported by rules in Pathfinder. Yes, all of what I'm about to describe can be house-ruled or whatever you like, but I don't need a game system at all to support doing what I please.

I played a wizard to 34th level in the Forgotten Realms, the only published setting that came close to supporting play at such high levels. While being able to cast a Quickened Disintegrate (among others) is mildly entertaining, what I really enjoyed about epic-level play was the *scope* of it. Epic Spellcasting allowed my character to perform feats of magic at extravagant cost, in money, time, and/or xp that simply can't be duplicated by 9th-level spells. Yes, you can write up a spell description and research it, but casting a spell that, for example, sends a 30-second-long mental message to every sentient being within 2,000 miles even if it's immune to mind-affecting spells is going to fall outside the scope of the normal spell progression and no sane DM is going to allow it as a 9th-level spell.

Another part of what was fun about epic-level play was that, unlike previous editions of D&D, there were rules for doing the sorts of things previously reserved for boxed text and NPCs: in the Forgotten Realms, this included crafting mythals. Those rules weren't perfect, but they were balanced enough that I played with them in a campaign for over 5 years with few significant complaints.

Beyond math, the real problem that epic-level play posed was that, as I hinted above, spellcasters had options that were far more interesting and effective than those available to martial characters. Pathfinder has done an outstanding job of making martial characters more interesting from levels 1-20 than in 3rd and I'm confident that ways can be found to do so at levels above 20, as well.

I skimmed the Mythic Adventures playtest rules and, while they look interesting, I'd prefer something that allows the same sort of modularity that 3rd had. Actually, that's a gripe I have with Pathfinder in general, at times, since it seems to prefer kits to alternate classes/prestige classes (or, in this case, forcing a character to choose only one mythic path rather than allowing "multipathing"). Also, I don't necessarily *want* a character that's more powerful than a 20th-level PC to have the equivalent of a template added to him; I want to be able to make a normal 1st-level character and then progress him normally beyond 20th with the exception of attack/save progression (and perhaps other things I'm forgetting).

To anyone who read all of that, and to the designers of the game, thank you, and please seriously consider supporting level 20+ play in the official rules.

- Valtrim

Andoran

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Considering how many problems associated with high level play have to do with high level spells, I'm actually really excited about the idea of *lowering* the level cap for my home games and using the Mythic rules to replace the higher levels altogether. I've also never been terribly pleased with the experience point system itself, and I think that the Trial system has real potential as a replacement.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber
Steven T. Helt wrote:
I love high level play, but there are some definite math issues. When success or failure is largley determined by rolling a d20, having a +40 starts to result in weird dynamics. The game quickly becomes either a cakewalk for PCs, or impossible for PCs. It takes a lot of houseruling and fudging to make the game exciting and fun.

I have a friend who has found builds that can reach such numbers at sub-20th level . . . I couldn't even imagine where those numbers would go by the time you hit 25th, let alone 40th.

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