I agree with you about Amazing Initiative; I'd say the extra turn option needs another limiter besides how many points you have. I'd suggest keeping the same point cost but making it so you can only do it a number of times equal to your tier.
Strange. My only issue is the PCs getting +20 to initiative and always acting before non-mythic creatures.
I'm all for bumping it to 2 MP per usage, in part because I'm more afraid of mythic monsters bursting it than mythic characters. Yes, it's very, VERY good as written. I can easily see parties running out of MP before going into a mythic encounter and getting whooped if they're not careful.
The biggest restraint you can put on this, however, is not mechanical. The 15 minute work day needs to be out and/or the challenge level needs to be boosted to compensate for the diminished challenge presented by the monsters.
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I'm ok with the PC's acting first against non-mythic's but the extra turn seems to be way too much. An extra turn is what I would give a solo encounter BBEG to keep up with action economy of the party. I also believe this will bog down combat with everyone taking 2 turns. Its just a bit too much to give to everyone baseline, and so early in the tiers.
To judge Amazing Initiative properly, we need to ask and answer this question:
Is there anything you can do in one turn that involves one use of your mythic power that would be better than taking two turns without otherwise using your mythic power?
If the answer to that question turns out to be "No", then Amazing Initiative is overpowered.
Lead Designer
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Hey there all,
I have been concerned about this ability on a number of levels for a while now. My initial thought was to let it play and see how groups react. During our internal playtests, it saw a fair amount of use, and I am starting to think that it is indicative of a problem with the balance of the mechanic. Later on today I think I will start a separate thread with a number of options for changing the rule to try and see which one is a bit more balanced.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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(Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a +20
mythic bonus on initiative checks. In addition, you can
expend one use of mythic power each round to take an
additional turn, treating your initiative for this second
turn as your initiative roll without the +20 mythic bonus.
Using this ability is a free action that must be decided
at the end of your first action during the round. This
additional turn allows you to take the full range of
actions available to you, but both turns still only count as
one round for the purposes of durations and other effects
based on rounds.
I've messed around with this and it seems like it will bog down combat when you have four players capable of using it. I realize it's limited by your Mythic Power but it just seems overly complicated.
What if it worked more like this.
(Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a +8 mythic bonus on Initiative checks, you can also expend one use of mythic power to treat your initiative roll as if you had rolled a 20. In addition, you can spend one use of mythic power each round to take an additional standard action during your turn. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the start of your turn.
This would still allow for mythic creatures to act ahead of non-mythic creatures and allows an increase of action without being complicated. It also seems more in line with the other mythic powers given by the mythic paths. At least in my opinion spending a single mythic power to gain an entire round seems much better than most other abilities, strictly based on action economy.
So what is every bodies thoughts?
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Hey there all,
I have been concerned about this ability on a number of levels for a while now. My initial thought was to let it play and see how groups react. During our internal playtests, it saw a fair amount of use, and I am starting to think that it is indicative of a problem with the balance of the mechanic. Later on today I think I will start a separate thread with a number of options for changing the rule to try and see which one is a bit more balanced.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I like that idea Jason. I already know my players will use their mythic power to use the ability. My two fighters and rogue will be the ones using it the most as one has played Earthdawn and always used the talent that allowed him to take two turns a round. I can see him spending his power until it is gone taking two turns especially in the opening round.
(Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a +8 mythic bonus on Initiative checks, you can also expend one use of mythic power to treat your initiative roll as if you had rolled a 20. In addition, you can spend one use of mythic power each round to take an additional standard action during your turn. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the start of your turn.
Very nicely done.
You're fast and still can get the +20 to init but at a cost. At an extra cost you still get an extra action that will slow down combat a bit less.
A mythic feat (with tier 6 prerequisite?) can be made to make that standard action a full-round action if someone wants to spend resources on that.
Very nice.
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I have some questions around Amazing Initiative...
First of all, yes I agree with all of you those powers does seems a bit powerful.
I really find Amazing Initiative great... for a Boss. One of the biggest problems that I've find when you try to make a solo boss encounter (you can also witness it in most Adventure Path), is that... the boss really has a hard time. Amazing Initiative is great because with a Mythic Boss, a GM can build easily a challenging foe for his players in a Big Bad Guy behind it all way, without relying on minions or other things like that.
On a player's point of view... It's too damned powerful. Most encounters already end in a 1-2 rounds at level 7 and above, and with Amazing Initiative, it will end in a single Surprise Round.
Let's take a look at a rogue with a high initiative.
Let's say he plays first, after all he build himself to act first and benefit from surprise rounds. Let's say he's around level 5, with a 20 in Dex, 2 Mythic tiers so a grand total of 7 Mythic points.
Rogue makes a partial charge, the ennemy is flat-footed, 1 sneak attack, he decides to act a second time this round.
Rogue takes his 2nd turn, and does a full attack action (because of the current wording of amazing Initiative, he can... Maybe we could forbid the use Amazing Initiative in surprise round??), every single attack will be sneak attacks.
Rogue again, full attack, every single attack being sneak attacks against a flat footed opponent. If he's not dead since then...
The problem with amazing initiative is that some class and characters can benefit so much from it that it can become quite ridiculous. A rogue character certainly gains the most from it because of sneak attack. If he feints during the first turn, he stills benefits from it in the second round.
The scout archetype can at 6th lvl make sneak attack on all of his attack if he moved at least 10 feet prior to any attack. He can thus charge or move + attack in his first turn of the round, then make a full attack action in the second turn of his round.
If he took a Path ability allowing him to move as a swift action, he could move then take 2 full round attack action, to make tons of sneak attack, probably destroying the poor opponent in a single turn.
In all of those case, he spent between 1-2 points in order to do 2-3 full attack actions with sneak attacks on all of them.
Hey there all,
I have been concerned about this ability on a number of levels for a while now. My initial thought was to let it play and see how groups react. During our internal playtests, it saw a fair amount of use, and I am starting to think that it is indicative of a problem with the balance of the mechanic. Later on today I think I will start a separate thread with a number of options for changing the rule to try and see which one is a bit more balanced.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
That sounds like a good idea, Jason. However, I do like it as written as an ability for monsters (though maybe the +20 is a bit high) who can really use a boost if they're at an action economy disadvantage. In other words, it can really help make challenging fights when the party is going against a single boss type enemy.
Maybe instead of adding +20 to your init and having the option of getting a full extra turn, Amazing Initiative could just give you a single standard action at +20 init?
Another option is that every round that you use Amazing Initiative you can't use mythic power at all for anything else until your next turn. In a sense it would leave you vulnerable in exchange for those extra actions.
Or, you could simply put a time limit on Amazing Initiative. Say, you can only use it once every minute.
(Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a +20
mythic bonus on initiative checks. In addition, you can
expend one use of mythic power each round to take an
additional turn, treating your initiative for this second
turn as your initiative roll without the +20 mythic bonus.
Using this ability is a free action that must be decided
at the end of your first action during the round. This
additional turn allows you to take the full range of
actions available to you, but both turns still only count as
one round for the purposes of durations and other effects
based on rounds.I've messed around with this and it seems like it will bog down combat when you have four players capable of using it. I realize it's limited by your Mythic Power but it just seems overly complicated.
What if it worked more like this.
(Ex): At 2nd tier, you gain a +8 mythic bonus on Initiative checks, you can also expend one use of mythic power to treat your initiative roll as if you had rolled a 20. In addition, you can spend one use of mythic power each round to take an additional standard action during your turn. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the start of your turn.This would still allow for mythic creatures to act ahead of non-mythic creatures and allows an increase of action without being complicated. It also seems more in line with the other mythic powers given by the mythic paths. At least in my opinion spending a single mythic power to gain an entire round seems much better than most other abilities, strictly based on action economy.
So what is every bodies thoughts?
Sounds very close to how Hero Points work , but I guess Mythic is basically an extension of the Hero Point rules so makes sense
From the sounds of the vote my group will be trying Brain in a Jar's proposal to deal with it. We'll see how it goes next Friday.
Neat. I can't wait to here how it turns out.
Thanks to those that have said it's a good idea.
Could just change the +20 to a smaller number - like +8.
State that you must have a positive init to get a second turn.
Means the characters have to have an init of 13 before power in order to get the option to have a second turn at all.
Big thing I'd do, though, is drop init by 20 when you use the power.
At that point *when* you use the power becomes critical, and odds are you can only do it once per combat, *maybe* twice.
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Personally I'd like it if it gave you a nice +5 stackable init bonus (That way you can add improved init, and traits and have them mean something.) and allow for a MP to be spent to get either the +20 to go first, or the extra action. Not having both stacked on each other. Unless you REALLY want to burn 2 points to do it.