I apologize if this has been asked elsewhere, but I can't seem to locate it: Does the Mystic Past Life ability work for multiple classes? RAW it would seem to me that it does.
It says all this happens at level 1; so it seems to me a Samsaran Wizard/Cleric would get to add both Divine and Arcane spells, based on their lvl 1 stats, probably at character creation. I see a lot of debate as to whether or not you can only take spells from 1 other class or multiples; has this ability been officially errata'd anywhere?
I am not sure how one would handle that. But I would rule it as You pick the spells at level 1 and what class they get added to.
I would also have it that they must be of the same type and from the same class added to the Same class.
Meaning you could add Bard Spells to a Magus or a Wizard. Inquisitor Spells to a Cleric or Druid.
But not one spell from Bard to Wizard and one spell from Druid to Cleric.
After all how would you balance them out.
And these must be chosen at level 1 so... Would a non-1st level caster Samsaren even benefit from this ability?
Well I know how *I'd* rule it, but I'm playing in this campaign and not GMing it. That's why I want as official a ruling as possible to be armed with going forward.
But I'd say the player in question needs to decide the spells before they take the class. Personally I'm pretty OCD when it comes to character planning, so I know from the beginning what I'm going to do for all 20 levels; but if I had a player who rolled a Samsaran melee type (for what? LOL) and then decided to add a primary caster, I'd have then pick the spells right then; since it's still their first caster level.
So a 10 Samsaran Bard who wanted to add a level of Cleric would pick all their cleric spells then, but they couldn't cast them till they were the appropriate level, of course.
The thing is if they took this trait then the class would be Bard as that is their current class at level 1. "current spellcasting class" is the key.
Now after looking over the trait and thinking about it some more.
I would let them lock in the number of spells and then let them actually decide the spells when they took their first level of a casting class. Say a Rogue 3 who decides to take a level in bard.
Remember this is any casting class not just full casters.
Heck one might argue you can use it for Paladins and Rangers.
I would argue any class with a spell list, yes.
Although what you said speaks to my point: I am arguing that a hypothetical Samsaran Bard/Cleric *could* take arcane spells based on their Chr (Bards cast by Charisma, right) and Cleric spells based on their wisdom.
If you think about it, this might not end up being that overly powerful without them being very MAD.
I am planning a Samsaran Mystic Theurge for our mythic playtest, and the outcome of this obviously will have a big impact on what the character can and and can't do.
You can only choose one class to take from and one different class in the same type (Arcane or Divine) to receive.
And it would be the current class that you have that can cast.
So in your example it would be Bard if you took Bard first. It would be Cleric if you took Cleric first.
Now I can see your reasoning. and heck you might end up winning me over.
In the end you might need to discuss this with the GM.
EDIT: I actually agree with you now...
Though I would limit it to one class per Casting Stat to be the recipient of the benefit of the trait.
While I freely admit my mind is clouded by my own power gaming, even if I was DMing I'd interpret the rule as follows:
I personally wouldn't limit it to just one spell list; they still will only get 5 extra arcane or divine spells known, and no increase in spell per day/level. Doesn't seem that game breaking to me.
*Edit: I wouldn't allow it as a loophole to get early entry into spells, though; since it clearly says 'from another spell list'; aka things you can't cast at all.
Especially since you still have to deal with the slowed spell progression drawbacks of multiclassing in the first place. So not only does it not imbalance things, IMHO, but it fits the flavor of a character who's supposedly had countless lives and experiences in times past.
I wouldn't necessarily deny a player who wanted to do that, since they'd suffer from a MAD character who was behind the power curve. But if it made them enjoy the game more, why the hell not, lol.
My character concept is basically Doctor Who. A Samsaran Cleric with the War/Tactics and Travel/Exploration (sub) Domains, and a Wizard specializing in Divination. Multi-Class into Mystic Theurge, join a guild and ultimately end up with Double 9 casting thanks to Esoteric Training.
I'm in the process of working it out with the DM, but I am not going to tell the party members who and what I am; I'll just have all these random skills and spells that shouldn't be possible, but it is, RAW. The character won't be a game breaking powerhouse, since the Doctor's number one weapon is his mind. But being able to cast a simultaneous Wish and Miracle at lvl 20 due to the MT cap stone is definitely the 'I win' button, ;)
You take the trait at level 1. It adds spells to the spell list of your current class.
It's a one-time thing, you only get to add spells to your list once (at first level.) The interpretation that you could use this ability multiple times for different classes makes no more sense than saying you can use it multiple times for the same class, adding every arcane or divine spell to your spell list.
Well I'm going to give it a shot, lol.
Seems to me the keys to doing it are a large toolbox of skills, spells, and abilities, and a GM that can accept out of the box thinking. Like the kind that rewards XP for trapping, outsmarting, or plain ol' avoiding fights, rather than just laying waste to things.
Still, pending if we ever get an official word on this (and I'd really appreciate it if you marked the OP as a faq candidate), combined with Esoteric Training it really would make a Mystic Theurge manageable. It would still be a long climb, and rightly so for the same of game balance. but if you made it to the end of the road you'd have quite a character to show for all your trouble. Mix in a few mythic tiers and you just might be an actual Timelord, lol.
Oh, I don't agree at all.Like take this example from the Oread race entry:
"Fertile Soil Oread sorcerers with the verdant bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Oread clerics with the Plant domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level. This racial trait replaces earth affinity."
There is no reason to say a character that started as a level 1 monk for instance, and then picked up a level of Cleric would't get the benefit of that racial trait. Doesn't say it RAW and I personally don't think RAI.
Taking it multiple times for one class wouldn't work because it's still the same base stat. But as Azaelas said, I think it *would* work for Int / Wis /Chr separately.
Look at the verbs - "Oread sorcerers... treat their Charisma as 2 points higher", "Oread clerics... use their domain power and spells". These are always active. The Samsaran ability, however says "You can add... to the spell list of your current spellcasting class." This is clearly an ability that is used only once, when you initially take the trait.
I mean, it explicitly says, "The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level." At level 1, you only have one current spellcasting class, and only one key modifier.
There's simply no way to read the trait that allows you to add spells to a spell list for a class that you don't have. You can't take your first level in Cleric and decide you'll add Bard spells to your Wizard class list (because it's not your current spellcasting class,) and even if you take Wizard at second level, you still can't add Bard spells to your list because "The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level."
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Any rule you want to break comes down to GM fiat. In this case, RAW and RAI are clear.
Except: When you take your first level of the second class, you are in fact first level.Hence the debate. If it said first *character* level, or first hit die, or even first *class* level, it would be a non-issue.
But it doesn't...so it is very much debatable.
I'd like to reiterate, though, we are talking about a total of 6-10 extra spells known, with no increase in spell slots or action economy, so it's not exactly game breaking either way (though I suppose Mystic Theurge abilities muddy that somewhat).
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Mebbe.I see the Doctor a lot like Gandalf. If you think about it, Gandalf really cast very few spells; hell he beat the Balrog to death with a sword. But it was his knowledge and longevity that really made him powerful. Always being one step ahead, with one foot into the next world, as it were. Same with the Doctor; he was waist deep in the Time war, and he was the last man standing for a reason.
But since there are no sonic screwdrivers in Pathfinder, a fireball may have to do, lol.
The first level of the class is what it goes by. Now the GM can extend this to the first spellcasting class, but the RAW and RAI are clear.
These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level.
If the spells are set according to what you can do at first level that seems pretty clear. I don't see a way around that. Now since the spells are based on the type of caster you also are at that time, that also sets things up for whatever you are playing at that time.
1st level=level 1.
If they had said your first caster level that would be different, and allow a little more leeway.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
It does seem that inserting "First character level" or "First class level" would pretty much knock it out.If it's first character level, Rumpin is right and you can only take it once; if it's class level, then we are right and you theoretically could do it 3 times (for int, wis, and chr as you pointed out).
Oh, well this is clear:
Core Rulebook p. 31 wrote:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on the character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
Anything not a class ability that refers to your level is talking about your character level.
So say at Character Level one I have a 15 in all 3 mental stats. That means even if I raise one of them they would still be locked in as being 3 additional spells added to the spell lists.
Either way it is still one of those either way it isn't as game breaking as people think. And really only good on Prepared Casters.
It does state 1st level of a spellcasting class.
The only thing locked in is the number of bonus spells per Stat.
It is an argument of Semantics.
Right, the *number* of spells would be set, based on your primary casting stat, I am not arguing that point. But it even says: "These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character.", which means it is allowing for future use beyond what you can do at level one.
At any rate, I hope someone on Paizo Olympus sees this and can render an authoritative judgement. I fully expect they'll rule that it only applies to one class but hopefully they allow multi-classed characters to do it. Traits like Magical Knack don't come into play until after you multiclass, so I don't see this being any different.
Obviously I stand by my interpretation of it being possible with more than one class as valid both RAW and RAI. It even fits with the fluff of several past lifetimes as an adventurer.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
But I do appreciate all the points of view, and you all make very compelling arguments; the fact that it's easy to argue either position or interpretation makes an official ruling even more important.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
We are saying the amount of spells are locked in at character level one. but the spells are gained at Class level one.
The ability grants you a (set) number of spells at (character) level 1. These spells must be added to the spell list of your current spellcasting class.
There is simply no way to "activate" this ability if you are beyond level 1, because you've already used your allotment of spells (which was set at character level 1) and added them to a different spell list (because that was your "current" class at level 1.)
Again it boils down to Semantics.
Though looking at it from a Simplicity is necessary view. I would say instead of one for each casting stat. It should be one per caster type.
Think of it this way say one my players took this. I would allow them the bonus spells added to both Spell list because either way the spell still takes up space in a Spellbook, Spells known list, or are blocking in Spell Slots.
This ability is designed to increase options. The way you are saying it has to be used means I can't take my level of Gunslinger to get that full d10 hit die and be a good combatant for the first level then take my levels in Inquisitor and gain the bonus of this trait.
Meaning I lose options and making this race a suboptimal choice for said builds.
This is the rule forum. But not all rules are clear cut. After all based on RAW Stealth is worse than useless in cases where it should shine.
In the end this all boils down to how the GM views their campaign. And honestly this thread should have been worded differently and placed in the Advice or Suggestions Forum.
We probably won't see anything near an official word on this until Samsarens become available in PFS. Or more widely available.
It all is, as I have stated, a semantics based argument. And honestly I am glad it isn't as bad as one of the races from one of the 3.5 splat books. It left such wide interpretation to where you could basically give a Wizard or Cleric access to nearly every chain of spells if you had a high enough stat and your GM didn't lock it down.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I put it here because I'm looking for a rules adjudication, not build advice.But you're right, it probably won't be a big deal until Samsarans enter PFS...but I'm going to ask the question on the 'Ask James' thread. If he replies, I'll come back and post it here.
So, how exactly does this trait effect PCs whose first level is not in a spellcasting class?
Wait, was this directed at me or at ecw? I thought you were asking him what justification he has for thinking it has any effect beyond level 1. If the question was directed at me, I maintain it has absolutely no effect unless your first level is in a spellcasting class.
Just to throw my voice into this... I think it is pretty clear it has no effect on non-spellcasters at first level and it can only affect one spellcasting class since you can only have one class at first level (barring some house rules).
And my interpretation would be it does nothing for a non-caster at character level one, but would apply when they took their first level of any spellcasting class.
You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class.
You don't have a 'current spellcasting class' if you make a 1st level character who is not a caster.
And boom goes the dynamite!
There are basically three questions…four actually:
1) Nope. It's tied to character level 1. The flavor is that you've had this ability in your past lives, and if you don't have it at 1st level, you just don't have it.
2. If the answer is it only applies at *character* level one, and not *class* level one, what about multi-class Samsarans? If I am building an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight, and I take the melee class first and the caster class later, does that mean I am just out of luck? This does not seem fair, since it would require Samsaran characters to take an inoptimal, squishy approach to their builds. Traits like Magical Knack only kick in after multi-classing, or things like the Fertile Soil Oread trait don’t have any connection to character level, and that seems to work just fine.
2) If you're planning on multiclassing and want to use this ability, make sure you take your spellcasting class at 1st level unless you have a generous GM.
3. Does the ability only allow you to take spells from ONE other class? AKA if you are a Cleric, and you take a Paladin spell, you can *only* take Paladin spells. RAW this does not seem to be the case to me, I would say the only restriction is the Arcane/Divine limitation, and total # of bonus spells; which list it comes from seems superfluous.
3) Just one other class. Again... unless you have a generous GM.
4. And finally, does this allow you take early entry into spells by taking something like Haste as a 2nd level spell, since Summoners get it at that point. I do not believe so, since it does say ‘another spellcasting class list’ which would seem to me you can’t take something that is on your own list; but it comes up frequently, so I may as well ask.
4) It would indeed let you do that, but the spell still functions as a lower level spell, which can have some bad side effects. (As another side note... summoner spell lists are kinda messed up and I've been kinda silently hoping they'd get errataed for a long time now, but that ship's mostly sailed, it seems...)
Not the answers I'd hoped for, but definitely the answers I foresaw.
You still have to choose the spells at first level, even if you can't cast them. The spells also have to based on the types of spells you can currently cast, not the types of spells you can cast later. There is no way around that.
That means that if you can cast arcane spells then you are locked into arcane spells.
How does interact with classes that do not gain spellcasting until later, like the Ranger and Paladin?
I think it works normally. The requirement is spellcasting class - which Rangers and Paladins (archetypes notwithstanding) are, despite the fact it takes a few levels for them to gain the ability to cast spells.
The distinction is between 'caster level' (which rangers and paladins do not have at level 1) and 'spellcasting class' (which rangers and paladins are).
Recent threads in Rules Questions