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Mythic weapon finesse seems unbalanced...


Player Feedback

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dex based fighter.Sounds good to me. Roll with it. You guys need to stop meta gaming and just game for a bit. Enjoy yourself and your new toys rather than yelling about what you didn't get. Not aiming this at anyone in particular but if you start tearing something apart because it isn't perfectly balanced you'll end up with nothing. Its playable and its logical. Grass is always greener on the other side guys.....

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Midnight_Angel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Although I am quite certain the theorycrafting community is drooling over the possibilities, decent GM's aren't going to hand out mythic status like candy.

Huh? I was under the impression I could hand out mythic status to my player characters like candy to a child.

For being good (as opposed to being cookie-cutter shapes, behaving disruptively, or the like)

And this is my point. If someone is trying to game the rule with a build and says "Give me mythic stuff so my cheese will be strong" you just say "No soup for you! Play the build you built!"

It's a nice kick to the face of the player entitlement community.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
It's a nice kick to the face of the player entitlement community.

:)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Hi, welcome to the Mythic Playtest subforums.

Mythic Rules, which allow PCs to become legendary heores, are based on real world mythology.

Such as Heracles cleaning out stables by diverting river, or Atlas holding the world on his shoulders, or Loki(I think) gettng into an eating contest with Fire, etc..

Allowing a Dex based character to add his chosen stat to damage is ok in such a world, as these rules are intended to bend or break the rules.

Even better, these rules are the sole purview of the GM, which means that he can come to these forums, check out other peoples *actual* experiences with Mythic Weapon Finesse and mod the feat if he so desires.

Let it go. Its not unbalancing, it just bends the rules abit, it doesn't shatter them.

Shadow Lodge

Monkeygod wrote:
or Loki(I think) gettng into an eating contest with Fire

You got it right =) Loki challenged Fire to an eating contest, Pjalfi races Thought, and Thor wrestles Old Age. All lost... but only barely.


Vexous wrote:
Dex based fighter.Sounds good to me. Roll with it. You guys need to stop meta gaming and just game for a bit. Enjoy yourself and your new toys rather than yelling about what you didn't get. Not aiming this at anyone in particular but if you start tearing something apart because it isn't perfectly balanced you'll end up with nothing. Its playable and its logical. Grass is always greener on the other side guys.....

The issue is that there is little mechanical advantage to a strength build. Dex governs AC, initiative and a much better set of skills. If a dex fighter can do equal damage to a strength fighter, then dex is going to be a better build.

Andoran

Monkeygod wrote:

Hi, welcome to the Mythic Playtest subforums.

Mythic Rules, which allow PCs to become legendary heores, are based on real world mythology.

Such as Heracles cleaning out stables by diverting river, or Atlas holding the world on his shoulders, or Loki(I think) gettng into an eating contest with Fire, etc..

Allowing a Dex based character to add his chosen stat to damage is ok in such a world, as these rules are intended to bend or break the rules.

Even better, these rules are the sole purview of the GM, which means that he can come to these forums, check out other peoples *actual* experiences with Mythic Weapon Finesse and mod the feat if he so desires.

Let it go. Its not unbalancing, it just bends the rules abit, it doesn't shatter them.

More to the point, since unlike other options that are entirely player decided, these will only be given to players who earn them based on the GMs criteria.

So if you are an annoying munchkin at a table that isn't interested in your cheese, your GM doesn't have to give you access to this stuff.

It is a brilliant compromise, really.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

All feats and abilities are GM decided. Some just more than others.


This is why we "playtest" and not "Armchair Design".
I'm going to build a Mythic Finesse character for my part of this playtest on sunday. among a few other I deas I have.


I have played (and DMed) with Dervish Dance to any finesse-able weapon and haven't seen absolutely no problems; strengh-based fighters and barbarians are still damage kings by large.
Only problem I can see is with 1.5 times damage with two-weapon damage. Don't let that, and strengh based characters have zero possibilities of become obsoletes.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Vexous wrote:
Dex based fighter.Sounds good to me. Roll with it. You guys need to stop meta gaming and just game for a bit. Enjoy yourself and your new toys rather than yelling about what you didn't get. Not aiming this at anyone in particular but if you start tearing something apart because it isn't perfectly balanced you'll end up with nothing. Its playable and its logical. Grass is always greener on the other side guys.....
The issue is that there is little mechanical advantage to a strength build. Dex governs AC, initiative and a much better set of skills. If a dex fighter can do equal damage to a strength fighter, then dex is going to be a better build.

I see fewer people taking issue with a fact that any wizard build is going to be significantly better than either.

Seriously, if the game didn't implode from scimitars adding Dex to damage with two feats, it won't implode from Elven curve blades either.

And the advantages of a Str-based build are fourfold:
1. You can carry more stuff without investing in extra gear,
2. You don't have to blow two feats, one of them Mythic, just to play an effective damage-dealer,
3. You don't have to dip into a now-useless stat to use the ever-necessary Power Attack,
4. You get to be the big, strong guy - chicks dig that!

Osirion

Merkatz wrote:

Oh no Dex to damage!!!! Of course it's more powerful than Dervish Dance. This is a Mythic feat, it's supposed to be better.

And as far as Mythic goes, it's still not that powerful in comparison to other things.

A 5th level Wizard with 20 Int who gets 1 Tier of Archmage, selects Wild Arcana and can now choose to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell 3rd level or lower 5 times per day without any preparation.

For those of you keeping track at home, that Wizard can choose from around 500 spells to cast from as needed. And that only get's much worse as the Wizard levels (he doesn't need any more Mythic Tiers). Schrodinger's Wizard is now an actual reality.

You mean they gave wizards a mythic feat that is still less than paragon surge?

Osirion

Monkeygod wrote:
or Loki(I think) gettng into an eating contest with Fire, etc..

Loki tricked one of Thor's traveling companions into an eating contest with fire.

Thor himself was tricked into a wrestling contest with an old lady, who he was unable to throw and to whom he bent only a single knee and an attempt to lift Loki's cat off the floor, which he managed to lift only a single paw.

The tricks: the old lady was time and the cat was the Midgard Serpent.

There was also a female companion tricked into racing thought.

Osirion

Foofer wrote:

I really can't understand where you people (those defending the feat) are coming from. It's not balanced, clearly. Not one of you have brought up any points to the contrary. You're just calling me a whiner. It's not like it effects me as a player, it just allows me to build that much more powerful a character, and it's not like it would adversely effect me as a DM, because I could just ban the feat. All I'm doing is pointing out that it's unbalance. Are there other things that are unbalanced? of course. That doesn't mean this isn't.

Now do me a solid, and if you're going to reply, do so in a constructive way. I'm willing to have my mind changed if you make some legitimate points on the subject matter.

Why don't you draw up two optimized builds, one strength based, one dexterity based. Then we can do a side-by-side comparison.

Better yet, draw up several builds at different levels. Give us real numbers to discuss instead of unsupported complaints.

Shadow Lodge

Artanthos wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:
or Loki(I think) gettng into an eating contest with Fire, etc..
Loki tricked one of Thor's traveling companions into an eating contest with fire.

Close but not quite ;) It was Utgard-Loki, different character despite the similar name, and Loki himself was the contestant =)

Osirion

Orthos wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:
or Loki(I think) gettng into an eating contest with Fire, etc..
Loki tricked one of Thor's traveling companions into an eating contest with fire.
Close but not quite ;) It was Utgard-Loki, different character despite the similar name, and Loki himself was the contestant =)

Ah well, is what I get from going off 30 year old memories of the stories I read in grade school.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Artanthos wrote:

You mean they gave wizards a mythic feat that is still less than paragon surge?

No, not the feat. The base ability for Archmages called Wild Arcana. And it is much better than Paragon Surge. Paragon Surge requires you to use a spell and a round to set it up to get a specific spell for a short duration. And the spells you cast still come out of your available slots. Wild Arcana lets you use Mythic Power at will to cast any spell your class could let you without expending spell slots. Welcome to +15 additional 9th levels spells that the wizard can spontaneously cast at 20th level- just from one level of Mythic.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

But back to Mythic Finesse:
Well the feat is incorrectly and poorly worded at best. But i think so long as it doesn't do 1.5 damage with two handlers its fine.

And let's be fair, while Dex is a god stat in the regular game, there are a lot of little abilities in Mythic that make Dex far less necessary.

Inititiative bonus? Everyone gets a +20 at Myth 2.

Reflex Saves? Its the least important save. You can always burn Mythic Power after the fact if it is critically important. And there are other Myth features that can help make such thing irrelevant (heck everyone gets a version of improved evasion, but it works for all saves, except those from mythic spells at tier 5).

AC? Mythic offers a few ways to get DR, a couple ways to flat out ignore damage, and quite a few ways to get some AC bumps (mythic combat expertise gives you a +3 to +8 Dodge bonus at no penalty for 10 rounds at the cost of 1 Mythic Power for instance).

So what martial characters would choose Str over Dex? Those who don't want to be terrible in early levels before Mythic comes into play and those want to explore more interesting options in Mythic without having a delayed progression because you need a certain feat and some paths abilities to max out Dex properly (after all, tiers are supposed to take longer to obtain than normal levels).

Grand Lodge

Tels wrote:


I know, but you'd need to be at least Tier 2 to get both Component Power and Competent Caster. Endless Power can't be taken till Tier 6. I was referencing the bolded part above.

You need to be teir 2 ANYWAYS. You can't choose component power or competent caster in place of wild arcana. You get to choose one of those two and either wild arcana, arcane surge or mage strike. You can't swap an archmage arcana for a path ability.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I don't see this as any more balance impacting then several others. Do I agree this is unbalance if it is introduced by it self? Sure but it is not. The complete picture has to be taken into account.

I would suggest you play it as is with your group and see how much it really impacts things. Then report what you found in a playtest. What happened in real play. Of course that is just a suggestion. :-)


Weapon Finesse(Mythic) wrote:


You are an expert with weapons that rely on your agility.
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, 1st mythic tier.
Benefit: You can use your Dexterity score on all melee
attack rolls and damage rolls instead of your Strength
score.

Wouldn't the most balanced approach to this be to simply do this;

Weapon Finesse(Mythic)- Allows you to use Dexterity instead of Strength with any weapon. But doesn't allow you to gain 1.5 Dexterity for 2-Handing.

Pros: Can focus on Dexterity and gain more of a bonus on reflex and armor class, etc.

Cons: Less damage than Strength.(Since you can gain 1.5 Strength while using Strength.)

That way Strength allows for more damage while Dexterity is an option and adds more defense.

Fair?


I'd be willing to see how this actually plays out in practice.

In the case of 2 handed weapons, I'm willing to contend that if the dex damage cant be multiplied by a 2 handed grip the same way as strength can, that might balance it somewhat.

The potential problem I see is in that with this feat Dex becomes the one-stop combat stat, and focusing on it becomes a no-brainer for anyone who wants to get the most bang out of their point-buy. It isn't that having dex to damage is actually bad in isolation, it's the fact that dex then gets you awesome AC, awesome saves, awesome ranged, and awesome melee bonuses all in one convenient little stat that is potentially problematic.

No other stat gets you that much bang for your buck.


TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:

I'd be willing to see how this actually plays out in practice.

In the case of 2 handed weapons, I'm willing to contend that if the dex damage cant be multiplied by a 2 handed grip the same way as strength can, that might balance it somewhat.

The potential problem I see is in that with this feat Dex becomes the one-stop combat stat, and focusing on it becomes a no-brainer for anyone who wants to get the most bang out of their point-buy. It isn't that having dex to damage is actually bad in isolation, it's the fact that dex then gets you awesome AC, awesome saves, awesome ranged, and awesome melee bonuses all in one convenient little stat that is potentially problematic.

Keep it mind in order to do it you need to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse and later if you reach mythic tier two you spend a mythic feat in order to do that.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:

I'd be willing to see how this actually plays out in practice.

In the case of 2 handed weapons, I'm willing to contend that if the dex damage cant be multiplied by a 2 handed grip the same way as strength can, that might balance it somewhat.

The potential problem I see is in that with this feat Dex becomes the one-stop combat stat, and focusing on it becomes a no-brainer for anyone who wants to get the most bang out of their point-buy. It isn't that having dex to damage is actually bad in isolation, it's the fact that dex then gets you awesome AC, awesome saves, awesome ranged, and awesome melee bonuses all in one convenient little stat that is potentially problematic.

Keep it mind in order to do it you need to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse and later if you reach mythic tier two you spend a mythic feat in order to do that.

Yes, and the question - which I don't have an answer to yet, I'm just voicing possible concerns - is whether or not those two feats are a sufficient charge to gain that benefit. Does that make mythic characters going this route inherently advantaged in how they build their characters?

I imagine it's subjective, and I don't think I can answer it until I've actually seen some examples of how it plays out, since it's not just an issue of combat balance, but of how two differently built characters aiming for a similar niche (damage dealer) stack up against one another.

I don't know yet.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

5 people marked this as a favorite.

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Really, this doesn't need to be dumbed down, if anything, some of the other mythic powers need to be raised to the same level.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, I think it needs to be "dumbed down".


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
No, I think it needs to be "dumbed down".

I can support limiting it to Finesse weapons only.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was planning on asking a player of mine to make a two-handed fighter who used the mistaken version ("all melee attacks") when we playtest at level 20.

Might still do that, but with the finesse weapon clause.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. (...)

Please don't be. It works and expands the number of viable builds.

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:

I was planning on asking a player of mine to make a two-handed fighter who used the mistaken version ("all melee attacks") when we playtest at level 20.

Might still do that, but with the finesse weapon clause.

I have a player playing a Spring-Attacking, Greataxe-weilding Paladin with 18 starting Dex who was planning the same thing. (Her current Str is 16 with a +2 Belt included, for the curious) Would have been interesting at the least.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Tels wrote:


I know, but you'd need to be at least Tier 2 to get both Component Power and Competent Caster. Endless Power can't be taken till Tier 6. I was referencing the bolded part above.
You need to be teir 2 ANYWAYS. You can't choose component power or competent caster in place of wild arcana. You get to choose one of those two and either wild arcana, arcane surge or mage strike. You can't swap an archmage arcana for a path ability.

Read what I said again, I already knew you have to be Tier 2 to get both abilities, I never said you could get them at first tier. My point was, that a Wizard would benefit from continuing to advance in Tiers, at least till Tier 2. The next juicy ability doesn't come until Tier 6, which he may deem too much effort to work for.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Orthos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I was planning on asking a player of mine to make a two-handed fighter who used the mistaken version ("all melee attacks") when we playtest at level 20.

Might still do that, but with the finesse weapon clause.

I have a player playing a Spring-Attacking, Greataxe-weilding Paladin with 18 starting Dex who was planning the same thing. (Her current Str is 16 with a +2 Belt included, for the curious) Would have been interesting at the least.

And with all of those extra stat boosts you get, combined with the nearly SAD-ness of the dex-based fighter that gets dex-to-damage, and you've got a hard to hit, fast moving, one man blender :)


Honestly, I've never bought into that the Dex Fighter would out perform the Strength fighter. Part of it comes from the fact that the Dex Fighter is never going to be able to outclass the Strength Fighter's AC; any armor that could actually let them overcome the Fighter has a pretty steep Max. Dex bonus. As others have said, the Dex Fighter is also going to lag behind in versatility because if they're both stacking nothing but DPR feats, the Dex Fighter has a two-feat tax that the Str Fighter doesn't have to worry about; when Mythic Dex Fighter is just taking the one feat that will make his build work, Mythic Str Fighter is taking Mythic Power Attack to pull ahead. This is even more important if the Mythic Dex Fighter is still limited to Weapon Finesse weapons, which means the Str Fighter is going to typically have a larger range of weapons to pool from.

Here's a look at the two ability scores:

Str Fighter
-Increases melee attack rolls.
-Increases melee damage rolls.
-Increases CMB and CMD.
-Increases carrying capacity.
-2 Ability skills (Climb / Swim)

Dex Fighter
-Increases ranged attack rolls.
-Increases AC.
-Increases CMD.
-7 Ability skills (Acrobatics / Disable Device / Escape Artist / Fly / Ride / Sleight of Hand / Stealth)
-Increases Reflex saving throws.
-Increases Initiative bonus.

+Weapon Finesse (Dex on Melee Attack Rolls with specific weapons)
+Agile Combat Maneuvers (Dex on CMB)

Differences
-Strength improves damage, Dexterity improves AC.
-Strength improves both CMB and CMD, Dexterity only improves one.
-Dexterity has 5 more skills than Strength.
-Dexterity adds a bonus to a saving throw (Reflex) and to Initiative checks.
-Strength improves carrying capacity, which is either extremely important or utterly ignored.

So, right off the bat its clear that Dexterity is the winner, especially if Dexterity was given more dependencies. One thing that I'm surprised that no one has ever tried is giving Strength characters a chain of feats as an option to arms race with Dexterity fighters. For example:

As far as I know, Powerful Throw (Strength on attack rolls with thrown weapons) was never added to the game. Why not? And why not expand it a little bit? Allow the feat to allow the character to use their Strength bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and composite bows (long and short).

For skills, there's several skills that can be easily justified as Strength skills:

-Acrobatics was originally part-Strength (jump checks) and when using it to move through a space without provoking attacks of opportunity, I can imagine a big beefy guy using their muscle to overpower attacks to strike at them instead of nimbly dodging them. I'm sorry to say that anyone who thinks you do not need powerful muscles to be an actual acrobatic is simply wrong. They aren't surging with muscles, no, but they are lean and mean.

-Escape Artist checks go hand-in-hand with Strength checks; everything that allows one allows the other. I wouldn't reflavor the skill; I would say you get a bonus equal to 3 + your Hit Dice on Strength checks made to escape from bonds and similar obstacles that also allow an Escape Artist check.

-Fly could be a Strength check in the same sense that you'll see people trying to "swim" through the air in zero-gravity situations. This one isn't as compelling when the flight is magic-based, but I don't think there's any suspension of disbelief when you say that something like a dragon is using its tremendous Strength to fly.

-Ride is fairly easy to make into a Strength check; you're using your strength and applying physical pressure to actually force the mount (rather than guiding it) where you want it to go.

Right off the bad, that's 4 skills you could give to Strength with the right doses of flavor. And after all, we're talking Mythic characters here, right?

Now, you could also go for Strength instead of Constitution on Fortitude saves, you could go Strength as an untyped bonus to AC (you're so meaty that your physical strength aids you in deflecting blows), or even Strength to hit points. Considering what the game does to characters who don't invest in a Constitution score its not entirely gamebreaking if you want to give players that choice. (Especially given how Str characters tend to be front-line and therefore getting rocked by poisons and the like constantly.)


The Champion has an ability to remove the Max. Dex of armor. So a pure Dex Melee class could easily bump his AC through the roof, while retaining good damage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eh, I'm sure there are roughly a billion threads over in the main forums if people want to debate dex-to-damage again. I did my part in derailing this, so I'm going to make my amends and do my part to try to get people to discuss the playtest of this mythic feat (with the errata of "weapon finesse only" applied to it, of course).

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Hmm, that's too bad, The feat was really not that powerful if you keep in mind a few things.

1) Yes Dex is important for your AC, but a fighter is GREAT with an heavy armor... and I doubt you'll ever be able to wear one. Why? Because let's not forget that the STR score determines the carrying capacity, I know a lot of people tend to forget about that rule, but with a low STR score, you really can't have that lot of things on you. A big sword and an armor can get you into the medium load, which means you get all of the associated maluses.

So if you could use ANY melee weapon with this feat, it would mean that yeah, you get the big sword... but you also get its weight.

2) In the pathfinder society field guide and now in ultimate equipment, there is the agile special ability that you can apply on any finesse melee weapon.
By restricting this feat to only finesse weapon, you give it the value of a +1 enhancement bonus on a weapon or it just becomes a second Dervish dance. The mythic aspect of gets a little bit thrown off, and I find it really sad...

To let the feat in its current state(all melee weapons), and add that you cannot add 1+1/2 your dex bonus to a two-handed weapon would be the only change I would make to make the feat interesting.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Have str minuses count against you, but bonuses still not help. So dex 18 Str 8, have them only get +3 instead of the +4 from the 18 dex.

BOOM!!! balanced.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just a note Darkorin, Agile is not in Ultimate Equipment. A few other things from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide are in there, but that one isn't.


Tels wrote:
The Champion has an ability to remove the Max. Dex of armor. So a pure Dex Melee class could easily bump his AC through the roof, while retaining good damage.

Exactly, a Mythic dex fighter should be wear mithral full plate.


Darkorin wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Hmm, that's too bad, The feat was really not that powerful if you keep in mind a few things.

1) Yes Dex is important for your AC, but a fighter is GREAT with an heavy armor... and I doubt you'll ever be able to wear one. Why? Because let's not forget that the STR score determines the carrying capacity, I know a lot of people tend to forget about that rule, but with a low STR score, you really can't have that lot of things on you. A big sword and an armor can get you into the medium load, which means you get all of the associated maluses.

So if you could use ANY melee weapon with this feat, it would mean that yeah, you get the big sword... but you also get its weight.

2) In the pathfinder society field guide and now in ultimate equipment, there is the agile special ability that you can apply on any finesse melee weapon.
By restricting this feat to only finesse weapon, you give it the value of a +1 enhancement bonus on a weapon or it just becomes a second Dervish dance. The mythic aspect of gets a little bit thrown off, and I find it really sad...

Mithral fullplate is 25 pounds and kukris are 2 pounds each. Put strength at 10 and wear a masterwork backpack and you have plenty of space.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Just a note Darkorin, Agile is not in Ultimate Equipment. A few other things from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide are in there, but that one isn't.

You're right sorry, I was sure that I'd seen it there somewhere @_@, but well... it still exists (not Core alright...), and dervish dance exemple still works!

Edit for johnlocke: But let's not forget it costs 9 000gp to make it in mithril...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Please, just keep it as is.

It's not all that powerful, and being able to do something no non-mythic character can do is what Mythic SHOULD be about.

None of the people saying it is broken have actually tested it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Even if it was finesse only, it's something no non-mythic character can do, assuming the core rules. That's plenty good.


Allow the feat to work with all melee weapons, but not multiply two handed bonuses. Its way better that way than the finesse weapon only route because all you will end up with is elven curve blades coming out of every orifice. Allow people to have choices that are thematic, but make that choice to consolidate a trade off.

Loosing 50% of your bonus damage is something most players wont make, even if they could have an armour rating into the mesosphere.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Hmm, that's too bad, The feat was really not that powerful if you keep in mind a few things.

1) Yes Dex is important for your AC, but a fighter is GREAT with an heavy armor... and I doubt you'll ever be able to wear one. Why? Because let's not forget that the STR score determines the carrying capacity, I know a lot of people tend to forget about that rule, but with a low STR score, you really can't have that lot of things on you. A big sword and an armor can get you into the medium load, which means you get all of the associated maluses.

So if you could use ANY melee weapon with this feat, it would mean that yeah, you get the big sword... but you also get its weight.

2) In the pathfinder society field guide and now in ultimate equipment, there is the agile special ability that you can apply on any finesse melee weapon.
By restricting this feat to only finesse weapon, you give it the value of a +1 enhancement bonus on a weapon or it just becomes a second Dervish dance. The mythic aspect of gets a little bit thrown off, and I find it really sad...

Mithral fullplate is 25 pounds and kukris are 2 pounds each. Put strength at 10 and wear a masterwork backpack and you have plenty of space.

And no ability to power attack? Which just put your DPS at a piddle compared to a STR based build.


Cheapy wrote:
Even if it was finesse only, it's something no non-mythic character can do, assuming the core rules. That's plenty good.

Agile property.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Even if it was finesse only, it's something no non-mythic character can do, assuming the core rules. That's plenty good.
Agile property.

Still isn't core :-)


KHShadowrunner wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Hmm, that's too bad, The feat was really not that powerful if you keep in mind a few things.

1) Yes Dex is important for your AC, but a fighter is GREAT with an heavy armor... and I doubt you'll ever be able to wear one. Why? Because let's not forget that the STR score determines the carrying capacity, I know a lot of people tend to forget about that rule, but with a low STR score, you really can't have that lot of things on you. A big sword and an armor can get you into the medium load, which means you get all of the associated maluses.

So if you could use ANY melee weapon with this feat, it would mean that yeah, you get the big sword... but you also get its weight.

2) In the pathfinder society field guide and now in ultimate equipment, there is the agile special ability that you can apply on any finesse melee weapon.
By restricting this feat to only finesse weapon, you give it the value of a +1 enhancement bonus on a weapon or it just becomes a second Dervish dance. The mythic aspect of gets a little bit thrown off, and I find it really sad...

Mithral fullplate is 25 pounds and kukris are 2 pounds each. Put strength at 10 and wear a masterwork backpack and you have plenty of space.
And no ability to power attack? Which just put your DPS at a piddle compared to a STR based build.

Power attack depends on the build. A natural attack or two weapon fighting build won't use it.

Editor, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So... yeah.

This feat somehow slipped through as an older version. It is supposed to only apply to the weapons that you can use with Weapon Finesse. That said, I am still a little worried about the balance on this one. Obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent, although even with this revision, assuming the right character build, that might still be an issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Please don't neuter the feat so DEX-based characters aren't left entirely shafted. It's true that DEX is more powerful than STR in terms of what it affects, but the system has very little support for characters that don't rely on Strength in melee. As is, the DEX-based melee has to spend two feats that the STR-based melee does not. As long as the feat is limited to weapons that can normally be used with Finesse, it shouldn't get to the point where it's an issue. Most such characters will also still need a moderate (i.e., 13+) STR to handle Power Attack, so they're actually wasting points, in a sense, that the entirely STR-based character doesn't necessarily need to worry about.

Even with the Agile weapon enchantment, it's often better to just go full STR anyway, since it frees up feats and enchantment resources you could use for other thing instead.


I don't really see limiting it to finesse weapon as a noticeable change in power, just something that kills a lot of fun character concepts. All weapon selection does is base die (a tiny increase in damage: 1d3 is an average 2 while 2d6 is 7, an increase of 5 damage, and that's a gauntlet to a greatsword, the absolute MOST a medium character's weapon die will change), crit range and crit mod (You can already get either one on a finesse weapon in core. Rapier and Light Pick) and special properties (again, already on finessable weapons)

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