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NPC Codex and PFS


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Finally got my shipment notice, downloaded my copy and flipped (electronically) to the last chapter for the iconics. What I found:

  • All 11 core classes.
  • 20-point buy (hence the CR = Class Level)
  • Levels 1, 7, and 12

    Thoughts:

  • I think it's great that we can now pregens for every core class (once the Additional Resources page is updated).
  • Why the hell did Paizo choose 1, 7 and 12?! I get that this isn't just for PFS, but let's be real. Who is going to get the most use out of this chapter?!?! Not only do we have level 7's (which are imnsho not good for the Society to begin with), but level 12's? I'm assuming those won't be allowed in PFS, period. I can hear it now, "I need a level 4 monk." Sorry, but we only have these 4 core classes at level 4, but if you want a level 7, I've got all 11 classes." As a new player to PFS, I'd raise an eyebrow and question the vision of those behind this organized play thing.

  • ****

    Maybe someone with lots of game design experience could look at these characters at level 1, then at level 7, and create what they probably looked like at level 4, in a strictly-PFS-legal way, which he (or she) could then provide to Paizo to publish as the official 4th level pregen version of those same 11 iconics.

    ... or not. Just saying. :D

    *****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:

    Maybe someone with lots of game design experience could look at these characters at level 1, then at level 7, and create what they probably looked like at level 4, in a strictly-PFS-legal way, which he (or she) could then provide to Paizo to publish as the official 4th level pregen version of those same 11 iconics.

    ... or not. Just saying. :D

    This had already been done for every single class before by multiple different sources. The resistance to use them is still based on the time it takes to edit and develop them no matter who comes up with them.

    Before:

  • It's embarassing to tell players we don't have level 1 pregens for every core class. It's ok to explain that we have the 4 main classes of the core 11 because it takes time to develop them. It's embarassing to explain to players that we have pregens for Ultimate Combat but not the Advanced Players Guide (and even worse if you explain that we HAD them, but they weren't made correctly and haven't been replaced in well over a year.)

    Now:

  • It's embarassing to tell players that Paizo took the time and spent the money to publish new pregens for every core class, but not at level 4 AND we still don't have APG pregens.

    I'm thankful that for our 1st level players, they now have 7 new options to choose from (but really it's a net +1 if you could the 6 lost from the APG). Also, in my experience, brand new players more often ask to play an APG class over a CRB class, despite the 6 to 11 ratio. Again, just my experience.

  • ****

    Oh. Well, yeah, that sucks, then.

    Paizo Employee ** Developer

    Kyle Baird wrote:
    Why the hell did Paizo choose 1, 7 and 12?! I get that this isn't just for PFS, but let's be real. Who is going to get the most use out of this chapter?!?! Not only do we have level 7's (which are imnsho not good for the Society to begin with), but level 12's? I'm assuming those won't be allowed in PFS, period. I can hear it now, "I need a level 4 monk." Sorry, but we only have these 4 core classes at level 4, but if you want a level 7, I've got all 11 classes." As a new player to PFS, I'd raise an eyebrow and question the vision of those behind this organized play thing.

    The decision to make a version of each at 1st, 7th, and 12th was one made by the rules team in order to offer a wider spread of character levels in the book, such that each iconic would have a low-, mid-, and high-level version and players using them for modules and adventure paths could use the 12th-level versions.

    We will be releasing free PDFs of each of the 11 core classes (just like we currently have for the basic 4 and the Ultimate Combat classes (though I don't have a time estimate on when these will be available). At present, the 1st-level versions will need minor wealth adjustments when making them into free PDFs and Ezren will need one feat swapped out. Other than that, the 1st- and 7th-level versions are ready to go. I or another developer will need to make a scaled-down 4th-level version of each in order to get all three versions of each done, but we're already 2/3 of the way there over being at square one before these statblocks were generated for the hardcover.

    While the Pathfinder Society campaign is a large part of our audience, it's not the only one, and a book in the core line must serve multiple masters. I feel that we brokered a fairly substantial compromise in getting the pregens to a position that they'd be even remotely close to being PFS-legal. If that means that we get 22 Pathfinder Society-legal pregens when we previously had only 12, I call that a win, especially when one considers that the remaining 7 4th-level versions will be coming soon.

    *****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Mark thank you for the quick reply and insight.

    Mark Moreland wrote:
    If that means that we get 22 Pathfinder Society-legal pregens when we previously had only 12, I call that a win

    Not if 50% of the pregens aren't very useful to the campaign. I think there's a disconnect on how these pregens get used and what their value to PFS is.

    Scarab Sages *****

    Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
    Kyle Baird wrote:
    Not if 50% of the pregens aren't very useful to the campaign. I think there's a disconnect on how these pregens get used and what their value to PFS is.

    That is a possibility, in my experience Most pregens are used by New players and Most are 1st Level.

    Though sometimes I have players pick the UC Pregens, the vast majority of the time they pick a Core class. Even further the vast majority of the time they play Kyra.

    Grand Lodge ****

    Dragnmoon wrote:
    Kyle Baird wrote:
    Not if 50% of the pregens aren't very useful to the campaign. I think there's a disconnect on how these pregens get used and what their value to PFS is.

    That is a possibility, in my experience Most pregens are used by New players and Most are 1st Level.

    Though sometimes I have players pick the UC Pregens, the vast majority of the time they pick a Core class. Even further the vast majority of the time they play Kyra.

    Yeah.. any version of Krya is usually put forward.. since Clerics/healers are always at a minimum.

    Liberty's Edge *****

    People whine and complain about how useless the Pregens are, and how little choices there are.

    Now they have an option to present 7 more choices, and presumably (I haven't looked yet) they will be better than the existing ones.

    And still complaining... wow.

    Silver Crusade ****

    I will agree with Andrew Christian and Kyle Baird.

    Any improvement is welcome, and is a good thing.

    Having a high bar is also not a bad thing. When I was in the USAF, we had a saying. There is no such thing as "Good enough". I have yet to find a situation where "Good enough" is "Good enough".

    My expectation and thought is that Paizo has done a great job at improving the base stock of pregens, and of course, there is still room for improvement. In either case, thank you.

    Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Alaska—Fairbanks aka Relmer

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Andrew Christian wrote:
    And still complaining... wow.

    <sarcasm> Hi! Welcome to PFS! You must be new here on the message boards. Enjoy your stay! </sarcasm>

    Lantern Lodge *** Star Voter 2013

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    Having a high bar is also not a bad thing. When I was in the USAF, we had a saying. There is no such thing as "Good enough". I have yet to find a situation where "Good enough" is "Good enough".

    Yeah, that saying hasn't gone anywhere since you've been out. We're still holding tight to it. That and "Embrace the suck." Really becomes bothersome after awhile.

    *****

    Andrew Christian wrote:

    People whine and complain about how useless the Pregens are, and how little choices there are.

    Now they have an option to present 7 more choices, and presumably (I haven't looked yet) they will be better than the existing ones.

    And still complaining... wow.

    I don't see the original post or anyone else complaining, instead I see people concerned for the campaign... the only truly negative attitude in this thread, is yours.

    --------

    I've had tables where someone sits down with a pregen and players immediately ask if they can help the new player tweak it to make it actually usable.

    I've not had a chance to look over the new pre-gens so hopefully they are better.

    I shudder at the thought of a brand new player playing a level 12 pregen, hopefully those will not be made pfs legal and we stick with just the 1-7 versions (which I'd even prefer the 7s not be pfs legal, but that's a personal, experienced based opinion).

    I'm sure I'll have a better informed opinion on the pre-gens when I get my grimy little paws on a book, but until then.... I'll wait

    Grand Lodge *****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Robert Beasley wrote:
    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    Having a high bar is also not a bad thing. When I was in the USAF, we had a saying. There is no such thing as "Good enough". I have yet to find a situation where "Good enough" is "Good enough".
    Yeah, that saying hasn't gone anywhere since you've been out. We're still holding tight to it. That and "Embrace the suck." Really becomes bothersome after awhile.

    My uncle taught me the phrase: good enough for government work. He was a carpenter.

    I understand that Kyle was expressing concern, but it did sound like complaining to me. Especially when he made his second comment about 50% still not being useful. Not sure which 50% of the 1st and 7th level pregens he was referring to, and what is still not useful about them.

    Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

    I believe that I rather understand Kyle's point about level 7 pregens.

    They aren't that useful for two reasons:

    First, they represent an unfamiliar character with 4th level spells, or the other class features that are intended to compete with 4th level spells. There are a lot of different things to keep track of, and the option paralysis over what's the 'right thing' to do can be overwhelming for the new players that represent PART of the point of having pregens.

    Second, they are harmful to players on the table with significant investment in their characters (the 18-ish sessions it takes to be level 7) - they lack that investment and I have seen players take a "it's only a pregen, it doesn't matter if I die" approach to decision making.

    Places where level 7 iconics are useful:

    We have a local player who plays on 'hardcore' mode - no life-returning magic beyond Breath of Life. He is down to no PCs in the Tier 7+ range, and could contribute his genre and system savvy to groups that, honestly, could really use the help using the new NPC Codex pregens.

    So... that's the 11 of the 22 that are 'less' useful, in my guess at Kyle's opinion.

    Grand Lodge *****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    OK, if that's the case ... I agree. Less useful, but necessary.

    *****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    TetsujinOni wrote:
    So... that's the 11 of the 22 that are 'less' useful, in my guess at Kyle's opinion.

    Mostly this. Add in that we didn't really needthe other 7 classes and the existing 4 level 7 pregens accomplished their roles well enough for the times they are needed. More choice at that level, ime, isn't needed. The level 7 pregens almost never serve to attract a new player to the game.

    I'd even go as far as saying, instead of getting the new level 4's done, I'd rather have the APG classes released. If that's too much work, just release them with their 15 point buy. They were were still fun, highlighted some of the more unique classes out there, and were not vastly underpowered.

    *****

    Kyle Baird wrote:
    I'd even go as far as saying, instead of getting the new level 4's done, I'd rather have the APG classes released. If that's too much work, just release them with their 15 point buy. They were were still fun, highlighted some of the more unique classes out there, and were not vastly underpowered.

    This please ... when they were avilable I always chose the oracle pregen... she was and is by far my favorite

    Silver Crusade ****

    Kyle Baird wrote:
    I'd even go as far as saying, instead of getting the new level 4's done, I'd rather have the APG classes released. If that's too much work, just release them with their 15 point buy. They were were still fun, highlighted some of the more unique classes out there, and were not vastly underpowered.

    This is where I'll disagree. Options are nice, but I have seen too many players become frustrated with the fact that when they want to continue using a pregen past their first few scenarios that with the Non-Core ones they need to buy two books instead of just one. While I understand in the long run they'll probably end up buying those books anyways. It's a hindrance to our game as an up front cost from my point of view.

    *****

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    Kyle Baird wrote:
    I'd even go as far as saying, instead of getting the new level 4's done, I'd rather have the APG classes released. If that's too much work, just release them with their 15 point buy. They were were still fun, highlighted some of the more unique classes out there, and were not vastly underpowered.
    This is where I'll disagree. Options are nice, but I have seen too many players become frustrated with the fact that when they want to continue using a pregen past their first few scenarios that with the Non-Core ones they need to buy two books instead of just one. While I understand in the long run they'll probably end up buying those books anyways. It's a hindrance to our game as an up front cost from my point of view.

    with that line of thinking the powers that be need to also nix the UC pregens .. as that is also a 2nd book the new player needs to buy.

    *****

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    TetsujinOni wrote:
    they are harmful to players on the table with significant investment in their characters (the 18-ish sessions it takes to be level 7) - they lack that investment and I have seen players take a "it's only a pregen, it doesn't matter if I die" approach to decision making.

    One thousand times this. Can you imagine this mindset at my table?!

    If people have that mindset with a level 4 pregen, it's usually still low level enough that the rest of the party can survive. Usually. Well, unless BobBob's at the table.

    I'd rather the pregens be levels 1 and 5 with no other options.

    Level 5 gives you:

    • Play subtier 4-5 of a tier 1-5 scenario. Being the of the highest level and strongest you can be at that tier, thus compensating for lack of player investment or knowledge.
    • Play either subtier in a tier 3-7 scenario. Flexibility.
    • Play any subtier in an old tier 1-7 scenario. Flexibility.
    • Play the 5-6 subtier of a tier 5-9 scenario. Not a great option for those wanting to play subtier 8-9, but better than a level 7 playing at 10-11!
    • One more feat than the level 4's.
    • 3rd level spells for clerics, druids, and wizards.
    • Divine Bond for the Paladins.
    • Channel 3d6. Sneak attack 3d6.

    What you give up:

    • Players can't jump into a tier 7-11 game.
    • GM's can't run a table of 3 players in a tier 7-11 game.
    • ?????

    *****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    I realize that we have had levels 1, 4 and 7 since the beginning of the campaign, but does that mean we can't improve? As silly as it may sound to some, improving the presentation and utility of the pregens is a step to improving the image of the campaign, something that needs to be focused on this year before the launch of that other big RPG's newest release.

    Kaizen.

    Silver Crusade ****

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Kyle Baird wrote:

    If people have that mindset with a level 4 pregen, it's usually still low level enough that the rest of the party can survive. Usually. Well, unless BobBob's at the table.

    I'd rather the pregens be levels 1 and 5 with no other options.

    Level 5 gives you:

    • Play subtier 4-5 of a tier 1-5 scenario. Being the of the highest level and strongest you can be at that tier, thus compensating for lack of player investment or knowledge.
    • Play either subtier in a tier 3-7 scenario. Flexibility.
    • Play any subtier in an old tier 1-7 scenario. Flexibility.
    • Play the 5-6 subtier of a tier 5-9 scenario. Not a great option for those wanting to play subtier 8-9, but better than a level 7 playing at 10-11!
    • One more feat than the level 4's.
    • 3rd level spells for clerics, druids, and wizards.
    • Divine Bond for the Paladins.
    • Channel 3d6. Sneak attack 3d6.

    What you give up:

    • Players can't jump into a tier 7-11 game.
    • GM's can't run a table of 3 players in a tier 7-11 game.
    • ?????

    I would back this initiative. The 1, 4, 7 never quite made sense to me. I understand the logic. I just don't agree with it.

    *****

    Kyle Baird wrote:
    TetsujinOni wrote:
    they are harmful to players on the table with significant investment in their characters (the 18-ish sessions it takes to be level 7) - they lack that investment and I have seen players take a "it's only a pregen, it doesn't matter if I die" approach to decision making.

    One thousand times this. Can you imagine this mindset at my table?!

    If people have that mindset with a level 4 pregen, it's usually still low level enough that the rest of the party can survive. Usually. Well, unless BobBob's at the table.

    I'd rather the pregens be levels 1 and 5 with no other options.

    Level 5 gives you:

    • Play subtier 4-5 of a tier 1-5 scenario. Being the of the highest level and strongest you can be at that tier, thus compensating for lack of player investment or knowledge.
    • Play either subtier in a tier 3-7 scenario. Flexibility.
    • Play any subtier in an old tier 1-7 scenario. Flexibility.
    • Play the 5-6 subtier of a tier 5-9 scenario. Not a great option for those wanting to play subtier 8-9, but better than a level 7 playing at 10-11!
    • One more feat than the level 4's.
    • 3rd level spells for clerics, druids, and wizards.
    • Divine Bond for the Paladins.
    • Channel 3d6. Sneak attack 3d6.

    What you give up:

    • Players can't jump into a tier 7-11 game.
    • GM's can't run a table of 3 players in a tier 7-11 game.
    • ?????

    when I was a gencon (2011), I ran a 7-11 table.. 6 players, only one was a real character, the rest were pregens.. I lost count of the number of times I had to stop the pregen players from purposfully screwing with the faction mission of the real player... going so far as to stop the game entirely and have a conversation with the table about pvp and the don't be a jerk rule.

    They never should have been allowed to pick up lvl 7 pregens and attempt ruin another players fun like that. I truely felt bad for the guy with the real character.

    I'm all for the lower level pregens ... I don't think that there should be high level pregens allowed, except on a GM level to round out a table if needed, but certainly not player-run lvl 7+ pregens.

    Silver Crusade ****

    Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:


    with that line of thinking the powers that be need to also nix the UC pregens .. as that is also a 2nd book the new player needs to buy.

    I would be 100% ok with that. If the goal is to try and force new players into buying two books instead of one. Mission accomplished, but you're pushing players away in the same effort. Not sure if it's a net win. I'll let accountants figure that out.

    Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
    I truely felt back for the guy with the real character.

    Stop feeling people's backs. Even at a convention, that's just creepy.

    ;)

    *****

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:


    with that line of thinking the powers that be need to also nix the UC pregens .. as that is also a 2nd book the new player needs to buy.
    I would be 100% ok with that. If the goal is to try and force new players into buying two books instead of one. Mission accomplished, but you're pushing players away in the same effort. Not sure if it's a net win. I'll let accountants figure that out.

    I'd personally be super happy with a set of pregens that covered all the core classes that were accurate and fun to play...

    I also undestand that the apg and uc pregens were/are out there to help sell those books ...

    i just wish we could find a happy medium for everyone with the pregens.

    ****

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    This is actually a good idea. Level 1 and 5 pregens from core classes only: You can find out what sort of things you can play for free, and you can get a range of experience, but the high level stuff is reserved for people who earned their way there.

    Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

    I'll enter the dissenting opinion on the UC classes - we've had a lot of people that really enjoyed picking up the gunslinger or samurai pregen, and both are somewhat reasonable builds (absent the illegal feat choices on the samurai...)

    Given the tendency to buy on PDF, $20 for the potential of 200-odd hours of entertainment (slow track) on your first character is dirt, dirt cheap.

    Thea just needs to check with Tersha, then she could feel my back at a con if she felt the need. Given the knots I carry around in my shoulders, it's almost always welcome. ;>

    Silver Crusade ****

    PDF's are an option, but I would say in my experience only a guesstimate of 10% of players seek them out. It's the tablet and laptop users who like them primarily (I count myself among them).

    Grand Lodge ****

    I like the idea of not having any level 7 pregens. Or pregens above level 5 at all.

    Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

    It seems my region is seeing a lot more use out of the level 7 pregens than others. Datamining that could be interesting, I suppose, even given the erroneous conclusions it'd push due to the limitation of accuracy in the reporting system...

    Scarab Sages *****

    Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
    Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:

    when I was a gencon (2011), I ran a 7-11 table.. 6 players, only one was a real character, the rest were pregens.. I lost count of the number of times I had to stop the pregen players from purposfully screwing with the faction mission of the real player... going so far as to stop the game entirely and have a conversation with the table about pvp and the don't be a jerk rule.

    They never should have been allowed to pick up lvl 7 pregens and attempt ruin another players fun like that. I truely felt bad for the guy with the real character.

    I am almost postive I mustered that table. I could not convince those players to either go to a lower level table or break up. They all had tickets and refused to play anything other then the 7-11 game they did not have PCs for.

    *****

    Dragnmoon wrote:
    Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:

    when I was a gencon (2011), I ran a 7-11 table.. 6 players, only one was a real character, the rest were pregens.. I lost count of the number of times I had to stop the pregen players from purposfully screwing with the faction mission of the real player... going so far as to stop the game entirely and have a conversation with the table about pvp and the don't be a jerk rule.

    They never should have been allowed to pick up lvl 7 pregens and attempt ruin another players fun like that. I truely felt bad for the guy with the real character.

    I am almost postive I mustered that table. I could not convince those players to either go to a lower level table or break up. They all had tickets and refused to play anything other then the 7-11 game they did not have PCs for.

    Not sure who the musterer was .. but it was a train-wreck of a table ... oh well, just an example of why lvl 7s don't work out well for the real players.

    ****

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Level 7 pregens are by their nature for experienced players only. I find in our con's and game-days they are generally only offered to more experienced players anyway. Usually those guys/gals who might be a bit short on XP (out of tier) and want to play with mates.

    Most newbies get level one's - the only question asked sometimes is for a male/female opposite or variation to the Iconics.

    Aside from that, what do you give to lady who'd prefer to play a dwarven cleric etc? the only other sanctioned option being Valeros.

    I am not sure where I saw it but someone put together a group of level pregenerated characters that offered a variety to choose from. (not Iconics obliviously,) but something technically well-built that going forward they can assign traits to and name themselves. Basically it becomes the character. It joins the need between the newbies idea of the 'type/concept' of character they want to play with the mechanics that make it work and they don't have the experience yet to put into action themselves - it makes characters work!

    It's saves me time building new PC's at a table where I have 7 newies for for first steps.

    Silver Crusade **

    For Level 1 Characters, I keep a folder of home-made pregens. With the level 1 rebuilding now available, it lets them tweak it to their delight after the game, and it gives them far more options at the start of the game.


    I would actually be totally screwed without level 7 pregens, since where i play there are only ever 3 players who show up.

    Maybe you guys are lucky and get five guys, but I would like it if I could play my characters past level 6 or something

    Liberty's Edge

    I would hate to see the level 7 pregens disallowed, but I do agree that they have their place. They are best played by more experienced players.

    I was in a PFS game just today where I did not have a high enough character, so I chose to play Hayato, a level 7 Samurai. As I do not own Ultimate Combat, this is not a class I could normally play. I enjoyed the character so much that it has gotten me to think about purchasing Ultimate Combat to make up my own for PFS play.

    ...if one of the reasons for pregens is advertising, well, mission accomplished.

    My only complaint with the character was that it did not fully follow PFS character creation guidelines and some skill points were missing, making it slightly weaker than it should have been. Once Paizo releases updated pregens (that hopefully follow PFS guidelines), I think you will see some happy campers.

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