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Everything is a Swift Action...


Player Feedback


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Okay, so a little bit of hyperbole, but there seems to be a heck of a lot of abilities using Swift (or Immediate) Actions in this playtest.

That's great for a classes like Fighter who really don't have any use for swift actions, but it seems like Bard and Inquistor who already struggle with their number of swift action abilities are getting the shaft.

I played an Arcane Duelist that already needed swift actions for Performance, Arcane Strike, and quite a few spells (the finale and inspiration line of spells for instance). The obvious path for bard is Marshal, yet every single Marshal's Order requires a swift action, Mythic Power requires a swift action, and a lot of the path abilities require swift actions.

Would it be that terribly overpower to change at least some of these to 1/round free actions?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Perhaps rather then a swift action, which is already common in particular classes it should be "As a mythic action" or some other sort of new term which is similar to swift/immediate but doesn't interfere with existing options.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

While I understand what you are saying, I don't necessarily think its a bad thing that fighters are getting some additional depth while classes already performing several actions a round won't be getting more action heavy.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Well, we dont want to add a new action type that is for sure. Some of these might work as a free action, but I think we will have to evaluate that on a case by case basis. I am looking forward to seeing some playtest feedback on this to see the scope of the issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I also think that there are a lot of swift and immediate actions, some of them should become free or no actions.


While this does not solve all the problems with swift action requirements, Mythic Arcane Strike lasts for 1 minute if mythic power is expended during its activation.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Well, we dont want to add a new action type that is for sure. Some of these might work as a free action, but I think we will have to evaluate that on a case by case basis. I am looking forward to seeing some playtest feedback on this to see the scope of the issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

While this is not exactly playtest and more theorycraft, let me provide an example.

All of the Guardian's call abilities are swift or immediate actions, let's specifically concentrate on Absorb Blow and Sudden Block, both of these abilities require me to be hit in order to be useful, thus in trying to come up with a character that would get hit often, I immediately thought of the In Harm's Way feat to protect my allies as a good guardian should, the issue here is that In Harm's Way requires an immediate action as well, and the only feat I could think of that would allow me to do the same thing is Archon Diversion from Blood of Angels, a feat typically restricted to Aasimars, and requires you to have 1 free hand.

Now the problem is the Guardian has nothing themselves that enables them to take attacks that an ally would take instead, they can take ranged attacks, but not melee attacks, and the ability to redirect ranged attacks, Call Arrows yea, it's an immediate action, so I can't use it with any of the guardian call abilities, or In Harm's Way.

Well how about Ally Defense to protect that adjacent ally...well it's an immediate action, frankly In Harm's Way is strictly better, especially if the adjacent ally is a non-mythic spell caster or maybe an NPC class character or something that we need to protect from mythic melee opponents. Even if Ally Defense works, it's not going to protect against a full round action of attacks, it only stops 1 attack...from 1 source.

Let's just go ahead and take a look at the guardian abilities that are not swift/immediate actions shall we?
Additional Call Well, it gives another guardian call, a swift/immediate action
Cage Enemy Ok, this is part of an attack of op, specifically from a creature moving out of the guardian's reach
Catch Hazard Protects allies against traps, great, if everyone is adjacent to you when the trap triggers.
Devastating Smash HULK SMASH! Err why is this a guardian ability again? It doesn't even work for Sunder
Dimensional Grapple the dimensional anchor part is nice, I must admit.
Drive Back Standard action, AoE bull rush, limited usefulness
Epic DR Passive ability, and not terribly bad at that.
Mythic Companion Yea, I'm going to ignore this one and move on
Quick Recovery Passive, nice, but doesn't protect one's allies
Sweeping Strike Full Round Action, there are few cases where I see this being better then Whirlwind Attack, a non-mythic feat
Unmovable and our last non-swift/immediate action for the guardian path abilities, and it's a passive that simply makes the guardian harder to move.

Out of these non-swift/immediate actions, Cage Enemy is the only one that can really be used multiple times a turn, and that only really has an advantage when the guardian is surrounded on all sides, to prevent multiple enemies from getting away (paired with Mythic Combat Reflexes it really shines) however that is the only ability that is really protecting the guardian's allies in combat that is not a swift/immediate action.

I know this post has been all about the guardian, and specifically using it to defend it's allies, but is that not something the guardian is supposed to be able to do? And the overabundance of swift/immediate actions IMHO prevents the guardian from effectively defending it's allies from direct harm.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh no I have too many swift actions! Its broken!


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Well, we dont want to add a new action type that is for sure. Some of these might work as a free action, but I think we will have to evaluate that on a case by case basis. I am looking forward to seeing some playtest feedback on this to see the scope of the issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

It might be better to revise some of the core actions.

If Arcane Strike were a free action it would allow a couple 6 level casters to use quicken more into their prodigious supply of level 5+ slots.

If Arcane Armor Training were a free action the Eldritch Knight PrC would fail a little less and haramaki and silken ceremonial armor would be less broken.

If a swift action gives a bonus that lasts all turn it may as well be free because bonuses don't stack with themselves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right? so, technically, you could do 3 different swift actions in a round, one swift, one instead of move and the last instead of the standard.

Some abilities could function if they were as part of another action, like as part of a swift action.

I haven`t seen the Mythic Playtest yet, but surely i will and post others thougts.


Darklord Morius wrote:

First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right? so, technically, you could do 3 different swift actions in a round, one swift, one instead of move and the last instead of the standard.

No they can't.

You can take a move action instead of a standard action, but that's it.
Swift action is separate.

Of course allowing this for Mythic PCs would probably solve these issues, while not changing anything for lower level play.


Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?

Nope.

Shadow Lodge

Could always introduce a mythic power that lets you take up to two swift actions a turn. We're already handing out full and move actions, so it's not exactly a game breaking idea.
Not sure if it should cost mythic power though.
Maybe activate for one mythic power and then you can take two swift actions a turn for the next hour or hours x mythic tier?


A mechanic that tends to work well in situations like this is to make it "as part of" another action. As part of an attack, as part of a move action, etc. I also agree that specification on a case-by-case basis would be a good idea with mythics, such as:

"This functions exactly like an immediate action, except that it doesn't take away your ability to use another immediate action before your next turn, and you can still use a swift action on your next turn."

Hmm... maybe too wordy, but you get the point.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?
Nope.

There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

Anyway, yes you CAN use a swift action and COUNT it as a move action, but the action itself is still a swift action. For example, you can use 2 swift actions and a standard action during your turn. You expended a move action to do the 2nd swift action, but the action itself was still a swift action.


Sinatar wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?
Nope.

There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

Anyway, yes you CAN use a swift action and COUNT it as a move action, but the action itself is still a swift action. For example, you can use 2 swift actions and a standard action during your turn. You expended a move action to do the 2nd swift action, but the action itself was still a swift action.

Nope.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Sinatar wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?
Nope.

There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

Anyway, yes you CAN use a swift action and COUNT it as a move action, but the action itself is still a swift action. For example, you can use 2 swift actions and a standard action during your turn. You expended a move action to do the 2nd swift action, but the action itself was still a swift action.

I can find nothing on this page that supports your claim, please direct me to the RAW statement saying that a swift action can replace a move action.

Taldor

Dylos wrote:
I can find nothing on this page that supports your claim, please direct me to the RAW statement saying that a swift action can replace a move action.

Woaw... Ok, that changes a few things... Never noticed. Even if it is quite strange to not be able to take a more complicated action in order to perform a swift action, there are some case where it can make a great difference...

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How about a blanket limitation to how many mythic points you can spend in a turn, something like half your tier rounded up? Seems this would allow for a lot of awesome combined actions but still limit the number of times you can do things in a round. Also makes it so the really expensive ones feel less restricted solely by tier and are also prohibited by a more basic general rule.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, my bad, only one swift action per round, as kindly (and unkindly) stated above. I don`t know why, but i was thinking that open doors was swift action, that`s why i found the statment one swift per round absurd. But open doors are move, so - yes, only one swift per round.

That doesn`t invalidate the idea of more than one swift action for mythic characters.


Dylos wrote:
I can find nothing on this page that supports your claim, please direct me to the RAW statement saying that a swift action can replace a move action.

Wow, I concede defeat. My apologies.

This is going to sound silly, but my assumption got mixed/confused with 4th edition rules (that is the case with minor actions in 4e). For whatever reason I've always thought it was the same for Pathfinder...

Though that doesn't make me look any less of a retard. -_- My mistake.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sinatar wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?
Nope.

There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

Anyway, yes you CAN use a swift action and COUNT it as a move action, but the action itself is still a swift action. For example, you can use 2 swift actions and a standard action during your turn. You expended a move action to do the 2nd swift action, but the action itself was still a swift action.

No you can't and i am pretty sure we can guess the reason.


Sinatar wrote:
There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

What more is there to say than "Nope"? There's nothing to elaborate on. It's not a thing you can do because it's not a thing you can do.


How about a Path Ability or Universal Ability to take 2 swift actions per round?

Maybe it advances per Mythic Tiers...such as 1st, 5th, and 9th you get +1 swift actions?

Or...spend a Mythic Power use to make your swift actions be considered immediate or free actions for a number of rounds equal to your mythic tier?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Pendin Fust wrote:

How about a Path Ability or Universal Ability to take 2 swift actions per round?

Maybe it advances per Mythic Tiers...such as 1st, 5th, and 9th you get +1 swift actions?

Or...spend a Mythic Power use to make your swift actions be considered immediate or free actions for a number of rounds equal to your mythic tier?

Keep in mind that immediate actions are just swift actions outside of your turn in initiative, they count as your swift action for the turn.

I'm behind the idea of multiple swift/immediate actions in a turn, not sure about it being based on being mythic, though being based on being mythic does prevent non-mythic characters from casting multiple quickened fireballs in a single turn.


Preventing the non-mythic's from obliterating a mythic char with 2 quickened disintegrates was EXACTLY what I thought about like...

Rise of the Runelords:
Mokmurian if he didn't have mythic levels but was allowed 2 swift actions


While I'm sure there will be some concerns with swift actions and economy, my players found that with the Mythic initiative they were able to get more than enough done per round, needing swift actions or no. In fact, in the final encounter they spent three points a few rounds just to maximize their actions.

Don't forget, mythic bards, you only need to maintain your performances once per round - spend that mythic power and do other stuff in the second initiative count!


When you use Amazing Initiative to get another turn, you do get another swift action in the same round. Maybe we're over looking this.

Taldor

goldomark wrote:
When you use Amazing Initiative to get another turn, you do get another swift action in the same round. Maybe we're over looking this.

Amazing Initiative is gonna be changed, Jason already posted some other possibilities and none of them contains bonus swift actions

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

goldomark wrote:
When you use Amazing Initiative to get another turn, you do get another swift action in the same round. Maybe we're over looking this.

Actually, Jason is thinking about changing Amazing Initiative.


Yeah, I know, but it doesn't mean it will change. I think that in play AI drains lots of mythic power points. If you have four fights in a day you better be careful not to get too many extra turns that also let you spend even more mythic power points.

My main problem with AI is the +20 to initiative, not the extra turn.


Just remember though, that the BBEG will have that +20 as well if they are mythic. This might make standard combats even more of a breeze, but if you're running a Mythic campaign, then the harder battles will have that same leveled playing field.

Osirion Contributor

I think two swift actions per round breaks open classes that depend on them a lot. Inquisitors and such. Plus giving fighters more swift actions then letting them take two/round is ripe for abuse.

I actually think making a few of these core swift actions free actions as part of another action is a really good idea. It doesn't break the game for Arcane Strike or Bane to be free for the rounds per day they get used.


Pendin Fust wrote:
Just remember though, that the BBEG will have that +20 as well if they are mythic. This might make standard combats even more of a breeze, but if you're running a Mythic campaign, then the harder battles will have that same leveled playing field.

Yeah, I know it won't mean much against a BBEG, it's the regular battles that worry me. It might trivialize them if the PCs always go first.

This might happen more often then we think at low level, when PCs will face fewer mythic opponents.

Spending a MPP to get that +20 sounds a like a better idea. I have no objections against a lower static bonus to initiative or getting a +1 bonus per mythic tier.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hecknoshow wrote:

Could always introduce a mythic power that lets you take up to two swift actions a turn. We're already handing out full and move actions, so it's not exactly a game breaking idea.

Not sure if it should cost mythic power though.
Maybe activate for one mythic power and then you can take two swift actions a turn for the next hour or hours x mythic tier?

3 spell in one round

Yes, it is broken, as everyone that played with the 3.0 version of haste know.
For that to work you would need to use a new kind of action that don't allow spellcasting.

Sinatar wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?
Nope.

There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

Anyway, yes you CAN use a swift action and COUNT it as a move action, but the action itself is still a swift action. For example, you can use 2 swift actions and a standard action during your turn. You expended a move action to do the 2nd swift action, but the action itself was still a swift action.

A swift action allow you to cast a spell, a move action don't.

They can't be exchanged.

Shadow Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:
Hecknoshow wrote:

Could always introduce a mythic power that lets you take up to two swift actions a turn. We're already handing out full and move actions, so it's not exactly a game breaking idea.

Not sure if it should cost mythic power though.
Maybe activate for one mythic power and then you can take two swift actions a turn for the next hour or hours x mythic tier?

3 spell in one round

Yes, it is broken, as everyone that played with the 3.0 version of haste know.
For that to work you would need to use a new kind of action that don't allow spellcasting.

Sinatar wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Darklord Morius wrote:
First of all, swift action can be converted to move actions, right?
Nope.

There's a fine line between failing to elaborate and just being a jerk. -_-

Anyway, yes you CAN use a swift action and COUNT it as a move action, but the action itself is still a swift action. For example, you can use 2 swift actions and a standard action during your turn. You expended a move action to do the 2nd swift action, but the action itself was still a swift action.

A swift action allow you to cast a spell, a move action don't.

They can't be exchanged.

The selection of spells that can be cast as a swift action is somewhat limited. That being said I see your point.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Hecknoshow wrote:
The selection of spells that can be cast as a swift action is somewhat limited. That being said I see your point.

Only until Quicken Spell hits the scene.


The ideal would be having a second swift action per turn, but restricting it's use to activating mythic powers.

On a side note, I know that you can't change a swift action to a move action, but I've always allowed it for bardic performance at higher levels. But that's only because before level 13 (I think) it's a move action to start anyways. I see no reason to penalize a person starting their barding performance and using arcane strike just because they leveled past 12.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Flintas wrote:
The ideal would be having a second swift action per turn, but restricting it's use to activating mythic powers.

Only if your first swift action is restricted to non-mythic uses. If you get two swift actions per round that can both be used for mythic actions, you'll get champions moving, attacking at full BAB, moving, attacking at full BAB, and then full attacking, all in one round.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I have to agree that with so many of the path abilities and feats being powered by swift actions, it makes it very challenging to making a mythic character who's class already has a lot of abilities that use swift actions, like an inquisitor. At this point, it's just theory on my part that this is a problem, but I'm trying to think about how I'll update my inquisitor to mythic for playtesting, and that portion of the playtest is all theory. Once I actually play withy the character, there will be playtest feedback from game play, but for simply updating the character, it already seems like a non-level playing field for some classes versus others because of the swift action use, which is part of game play, even if it's a part that happens outside of the actual playtime.


Why are we delving into the idea of granting players another swift action? They just need to make some of the powers a 1/round free action or just as a part of another action.

Now there would still be the worry of using a bunch of different abilities in one turn, but they can just do like they did for the SA Rogue Talents. Put an asterisks next to the troublesome ones and just say you can't use more than one of those per round as a general rule. That sort of falls in line with what we have already without the need to add extra action types.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Why is this such a problem? There is already a type of action that can fill in for most of these options -> Free Actions.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Peter Stewart wrote:
Why is this such a problem? There is already a type of action that can fill in for most of these options -> Free Actions.

Because there is no hard limit on the number of free actions you can take each round, and by default, free actions can only be performed on your turn. So redefining swift and immediate actions as free actions would require rules exceptions defining which free actions you can and cannot take in the same round, and which free actions you can and cannot take out of turn.

Osirion Contributor

A lot of these abilities need to be restricted in use, so you can't go with free actions. Also, the problem with mythic-only swift actions is that most will wonder why a presumably less complicated, less powerful action can't be taken with the mythic action. It might help balance the activation economy, but it won't make common sense to most.

I still think a few nonmythic swift actions should be made free as part of an attack or other action, and that all mythic swift actions should stay swift. Helps nonmythic characters, too, since some classes are already slowed by a plethora of mythic actions.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Flintas wrote:
The ideal would be having a second swift action per turn, but restricting it's use to activating mythic powers.
Only if your first swift action is restricted to non-mythic uses. If you get two swift actions per round that can both be used for mythic actions, you'll get champions moving, attacking at full BAB, moving, attacking at full BAB, and then full attacking, all in one round.

Yeah, that sounds like a good restriction to add. I hadn't thought of that.

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