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Question about mythic vampires with mythic tiers


GM Feedback


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

First off, I'll say that I absolutely love some of the abilities that mythic vampires get as part of their template, and am already looking for possible critters to apply to the template to. However, I have a question regarding how to apply the template to a vampire who already has mythic tiers.

Let's say we have Tom, the human vampire fighter 15/champion 6. On a beautiful and not so sunny day, he comes across a powerful artifact that transforms him into a mythic vampire. In this case, Tom is technically CR17(assuming PC gear), but with 6 mythic tiers. How does this factor into calculating his total CR for the purposes of determining which abilities he gets from table 6-1? For argument's sake, let's say we assume it's still CR17 and assign him MR8 according to the table. Tom gets all the nice mythic vampire abilities till overcome weakness(invitation). Cool.

But because Tom has a mythic rank, I assume that puts him into the mythic subtype as well. The mythic subtype and mythic tiers offer many of the same bonuses, such as bonus HP and increases to ability scores. How do the bonuses from these two sources interact/stack/not stack? For example, Tom gets 5 bonus HP per champion tier, but also 10 bonus HP per MR. Similarly, Tom gets his champion tier(6) + probably str modifier in mythic power, but the mythic subtype dictates that Tom also gets 8 uses of his mythic power per day due to his MR. How are MR and mythic tiers intended do work together in cases like these? Are they meant to?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Excellent question that I'm also curious about.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey there,

Concerning this template, we are assuming that you are either a mythic vampire with ordinary class levels and no mythic path... or... a mythic character with a path with the ordinary vampire template. You can't have both.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

I moved this to the GM Feedback Forum.

Jason


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there,

Concerning this template, we are assuming that you are either a mythic vampire with ordinary class levels and no mythic path... or... a mythic character with a path with the ordinary vampire template. You can't have both.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Interesting, by going either or with the Mythic Vampire it does set a precedent on race specific Mythic Paths in the future being either Elf or Archmage for example. While beyond the scope of the play test I can certainly see where this might be interesting to design in the future.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there,

Concerning this template, we are assuming that you are either a mythic vampire with ordinary class levels and no mythic path... or... a mythic character with a path with the ordinary vampire template. You can't have both.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I see, thank you for the answer!

I can understand how choosing to keep ranks and tiers separate could avoid a whole lot of mess in the future, but it does bring up the interesting question of how different a mythic vampire fighter 15 and a normal vampire fighter 15 with some champion tiers can be - both on a mechanics level and a story level - and which one to choose when designing encounters.

Time to gather up some players, it seems.


I like this aspect, as mentioned, it opens up a lot of potential for other "templates" that could be seen down the road. Mythic Lich? Mythic Werebat?Mythic clockwork, etc. All kinds of goodness there.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So the perks of being a Mythic Vampire would overlap rather than stack with being a mythic character instead?

This template is such a cool idea (and I really loved the nod to the Legacy of Kain series!)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
d@ncingNumfar wrote:

So the perks of being a Mythic Vampire would overlap rather than stack with being a mythic character instead?

This template is such a cool idea (and I really loved the nod to the Legacy of Kain series!)

It sounds more like an 'either or' rather than an overlap. You either get the perks of being a mythic vampire or you get the perks of being a mythic character, but not both.

And yes, the template is probably one of my favorite parts in the document, even in flavor alone. :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Defade wrote:
d@ncingNumfar wrote:

So the perks of being a Mythic Vampire would overlap rather than stack with being a mythic character instead?

This template is such a cool idea (and I really loved the nod to the Legacy of Kain series!)

It sounds more like an 'either or' rather than an overlap. You either get the perks of being a mythic vampire or you get the perks of being a mythic character, but not both.

And yes, the template is probably one of my favorite parts in the document, even in flavor alone. :)

Yes! So good.

Editor, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Some text in a sidebar could specify that's how it works, and also suggest allowing a mythic character that becomes a vampire to trade their mythic tiers for equivalent ranks in mythic vampire.

I agree that it's easily the best thing in the whole playtest document. And that's saying a lot because there's tons of awesome stuff in here.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know, after looking it over for a few hours, I'm starting to wonder how its going to hold up power-wise. It's awesome as hell, an slap full of flavor, but is it more beneficial for a vampire to take mythic vampire, or go with one of the paths instead. Both off great benefits.

Testing this will be interesting.


Starsunder wrote:

You know, after looking it over for a few hours, I'm starting to wonder how its going to hold up power-wise. It's awesome as hell, an slap full of flavor, but is it more beneficial for a vampire to take mythic vampire, or go with one of the paths instead. Both off great benefits.

Testing this will be interesting.

Same. It seems like a lot of the mythic vampire vs mythic tier decision is going to depend on the base class of the vampire - Tom the vampire fighter might really appreciate On Dark Wings and Energy Bleed, but Bob the vampire wizard probably won't have get as much use out of those two abilities when he has overland flight and a good enough attack roll to hit a commoner but not much else.

Channel immunity, DR/epic and overcome weakness would still be a great boon for both. I might end up trying to test this on a bunch of PCs who've been contemplating a raid on an ancient vampire underground.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Defade wrote:
Starsunder wrote:

You know, after looking it over for a few hours, I'm starting to wonder how its going to hold up power-wise. It's awesome as hell, an slap full of flavor, but is it more beneficial for a vampire to take mythic vampire, or go with one of the paths instead. Both off great benefits.

Testing this will be interesting.

Same. It seems like a lot of the mythic vampire vs mythic tier decision is going to depend on the base class of the vampire - Tom the vampire fighter might really appreciate On Dark Wings and Energy Bleed, but Bob the vampire wizard probably won't have get as much use out of those two abilities when he has overland flight and a good enough attack roll to hit a commoner but not much else.

Channel immunity, DR/epic and overcome weakness would still be a great boon for both. I might end up trying to test this on a bunch of PCs who've been contemplating a raid on an ancient vampire underground.

Yeah, I mean the DR/epic, Channel immunity, and overcoming the vampire weaknesses are pretty boss. But everything else, despite its awesome factor, is kinda weak. I mean, take the claws ability: awesome flavor (congealed, razor sharp blood!), but pretty damn weak, especially considering its having to spend a mythic point on them. I mean, a medium vampire does what, 1d6+str and bleed damage plus energy drain? Not too impressive once the vampire starts to get high in levels/tiers. And blood omen; just awesome flavor. But 1d4 con drain in a burst radius? For 2 mythic points? Eh....Compare that to path abilities like precision, amazing initiative, the archmage stuff..

I dunno. Like I said, I need to Playtest and see. But as written, it's flavorful but weak-ish.


Since I'm a little bit short of time at the moment, I just took one of the pre-made high level vampire fighters in one of the APs and slapped on him either champion 9 or MR9, as well as upgrading him to PC wealth, and then threw him into a 1-on-1 with the tarrasque, treerazer and Achaekek. His final CR ended up being 19 + 9 = 28, which makes the Achaekek a beyond epic encounter.

Mythic vampire 9 ordinary fighter:
What I had been kind of anticipating happened - both of them had trouble hitting each other. With some PC gear befitting a character of that level, the vampire's AC went over the roof with his +9 adjustment to natural armor thanks to the mythic subtype. This is taking into account his base +6 from being a vampire, and when you slap on an amulet of natural armor +5 on him, that goes up to +20 natural armor. Stick a +5 full plate(which still allows a +5 dex modifier thanks to armor training) along with a ring of protection +5 on him and that goes beyond epic. His final AC ended up in high 50s. Even Achaekak missed more often than not, with his +42 to hit. (and I'm pretty sure that's not just because I suck at rolling)

His survivability is also a lot better considering that he gets double the amount of bonus HP from the mythic subtype than the champion tier. However, the successive -5 penalty to his attack rolls really start to hurt against mythic opponents with ACs over the 40s. He can somewhat manage with his first 2 attacks, but after the -10 penalty kicks in, I need to roll closer to 20 to even scratch the three critters' ACs. This is made a lot more doable with his +1d10 to d20s, but doing this persistently means that he burns through his 9 uses of his mythic power incredibly fast. This, coupled with the fact that all three of them had regeneration/DRepic meant there were a few rounds when nothing really happened in battle as both parties failed to hit/otherwise do long-lasting damage.

Normal vampire champion 9:
His AC suffers as a result of not getting that +9 adjustment to his natural armor, and even the tarrasque can hit him more often than not. However, his increased attack rolls thanks to taking precision three times really shines here. That, and the ability to reroll a d20 per round means that he generally gets all his attacks in with 1 or 2 crits. He can actually afford to power attack now, which ups his DPR on the tarrasque to 200 even after applying DR/epic on every single strike, or closer to 160 if you take into account the tarrasque's regen. The tarrasque went down in 3 rounds, but managed to take out a little bit less than half of the vampire's HP just because it can actually hit now. The vampire ended up using his mythic power around 7 times, mostly to add 1d10 and reroll in each round, but also to use Sudden Attack.

On Achaekak, he's still dealing crap loads of damage, but the simply fact that Achaekak can hit him more means that he'll likely die before he can drop that 800 HP monster to 0, especially considering the mantis god's regen and DR20. He still managed to whittle more than half of it down before he was another full attack away from gaseous form, which I find to be quite impressive.

Overall, it seems like normal vampire with champion tiers are somewhat more glass cannon-y at higher levels, when the lack of that natural armor adjustment starts to really hurt. But they're definitely DPR beasts - and this vampire I used for testing isn't even a really optimized fighter build. I'm sure munchkins will probably be able to make a build that can take down Achaekak in 2 rounds.

Precision is one of the best abilities at late levels, when you're dealing with the AC of mythic creatures. The fact that it's a constant ability that doesn't require mythic powers is just the topping on the cake. Sudden Attack's ability to bypass DR and roll twice is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to crit on that one - which, with your ability to reroll one d20 per round and a high crit range, probably won't be that hard.

These short playtest encounters are all revolved around pure combat though, and I look forward to exploring some other differences between a mythic vampire and a normal vampire mythic champion. I'll also look to putting him in situations where his channel immunity and DR10/epic actually comes into play...

Edit: Ack, forgot the fact that I gave him mythic dodge and that he can get a +10 dodge bonus on his AC by using a mythic power. >_>


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

^^^^ I appreciate the breakdown. Sounds like it went about as expected. Overall I think the mythic vampire is a great template, it's just lacking offensively. Defensively it seems like its a beast.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, some changes that I'm going to try while playtesting this template this weekend include:

-add to mythic vampire template-

Rank 2: increased blood drain (1d6), increase scabrous claws to 2 attacks that deal damage equal to a monks unarmed strike of the same level as the vampires mythic rank (adjusted for size).

Rank 3: increase electricity and cold resistances to 15 each.

Rank 4: when using Children of the Night/Eclipse, may spend a point of mythic power to give summoned creatures the agile or savage mythic template.

Rank 5: gains Fog Cloud as an at will SLA. Telekinesis becomes an at will ability.

Rank 6: Telepathic: Gains Telepathy to a range of 100ft, and can use Detect Thoughts at will.

Rank 7: increase fast healing to 10.

Rank 8: increase electricity and cold resistances to 20 each.

Rank 9: May spend a point of mythic power to cast Control Weather. Increase blood drain (1d8). Translocation: May spend a point of mythic power to use Dimension Door as a move action (caster level equal to HD). Vampire may not take other creatures with it, but it is not restricted from taking further actions until its next turn.

Rank 10: DR increases by 5 and gains the Good requirement (becomes 15/epic, good, and silver).

Tried to beef up the vamp a little more and to include to well known vampire traits from lore and pop culture.

Shadow Lodge

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Starsunder wrote:
Translocation: May spend a point of mythic power to use Dimension Door as a move action (caster level equal to HD). Vampire may not take other creatures with it, but it is not restricted from taking further actions until its next turn.

*Dim-Door, casts Fireball, repeat until defeated, assume second form*


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Orthos wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
Translocation: May spend a point of mythic power to use Dimension Door as a move action (caster level equal to HD). Vampire may not take other creatures with it, but it is not restricted from taking further actions until its next turn.
*Dim-Door, casts Fireball, repeat until defeated, assume second form*

What is a man!?

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Starsunder wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
Translocation: May spend a point of mythic power to use Dimension Door as a move action (caster level equal to HD). Vampire may not take other creatures with it, but it is not restricted from taking further actions until its next turn.
*Dim-Door, casts Fireball, repeat until defeated, assume second form*
What is a man!?

A Miserable Pile of Secrets! But enough talk! Have at you!


Orthos wrote:
*Dim-Door, casts Fireball, repeat until defeated, assume second form*

lmao,I was thinking the same thing have to add vulnerability to Whip or Spiked chain.


This might be answered elsewhere, but this seemed a good a place as any to ask...How would On Dark Wings function with a vampire that already has the ability to fly due to race? Would his speed and maneuverability increase?

Qadira

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

My own thoughts are: Could this template be modified slightly to work with the Dual Paths feat. This would allow for the Wizards to get their some of their fancy archmage powers or fighters to get some of their fancy champion powers by swapping out some of their vampiric powers. Which ones that would be swappable is really the question of course.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, I've been playtesting the mythic vampire with the mythic vampire template, and vampires with mythic paths (champion, etc). The levels I've been testing are CR 5 with 2 mythic ranks, CR 12 with 6 ranks, and CR 20 with 10 ranks, all against a party of 4 mythic characters with an APL (mythic ranks included) 1-2 levels lower. I've been fairly surprised to find out that the mythic vampire template seems to be pretty weak overall. Some things I've found:

-yes, the overcome weakness aspect of the mythic template is strong, but the offensive abilities are kind of stunningly weak. Take scabrous claws: at lower levels, this is ok (and I stress ok), but at the upper end of mythic the damage output is crazy weak, and that's taking into effect the bleed damage and energy drain. Essentially it's a useless ability later on, and considering that the vampire has to use one of their precious mythic points (more on that later) to use it, that's really unfortunate.

-weak ability 2: Children of the Eclipse. It's awesome flavor wise. In practice? Again, at lower levels, this is ok. At higher mythic levels this is nigh useless. I would say the shadows and wraiths can be fairly dangerous because of their incorporeal nature and draining touch attacks, but against a fairly prepared (mythic) party, they get smashed flat in no time. Maybe at higher tiers the summoned creatures should come with mythic simple templates?

-weak ability 3: Blood Omen. This one hurts the most, because of how flipping awesome it is. Put simply, it's just too weak. 1d4 con damage if you fail a save is not that threatening to a high level mythic character especially considering the vampire has to blow 2 mythic points. This shows up at mythic rank 9, which means the vampire should be about CR 27-ish. A mythic party of say, 16th level, mythic rank 7-8 isn't going to be impressed. In the several playtests I ran they certainly weren't.

Now, there are a few other quirks that bug me (telekinesis takes a point of mythic power? Really??), but generally those are the big ones. Put simply, the mythic vampire template just didn't really come through offensively during my playtests, especially at higher levels. I ended up using the vampires class abilities far more. Which brings me to the next section, a vampire with a mythic path instead. No surprise, this vampire tended to be a lot more formidable.

-yes, the vampire loses all of those overcome weakness abilities, and that sucks. But look at what they gain! Amazing Initiative! Mythic saves! And look at how many more mythic points they'll have! And that's just base mythic powers, don't get me started on path abilities. What would a vampire warrior rather have, Scabrous Claws or Precision? How about the Archmage capstone where they get a very high SR versus arcane spells, with a chance to get back mythic power? Or any number of awesome path abilities that retain their usefulness as the vampire gets more powerful.

The mythic vampire template oozes flavor, which makes it awesome, because I'm a sucker for that. Its also pretty good defensively, although I think maybe the cold/electricity resistance should scale up, and perhaps the fast healing too. But, in the end, I think it suffers in terms of combat efficiency.

I don't know if this info is helpful, or if it falls into line with what other people have found, but hopefully this'll help provide some useful feedback.


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Yeah, really looking at the Mythic Vampire as written, I see it as follows (and hopefully you get my use of "roleplayer" vs. rollplayer)...

Are you a ROLEplayer? You want the Mythic Vampire. Who cares about being able to throw unlimited fireballs, I've got these awesome claws and I can fly!

Are you a ROLLplayer? You want the normal class based mythic tiers. So what if I can't go out in sunlight and am allergic to garlic, I can kick your ***!!!!


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Yeah, I've been wrestling with this recently, and had a lot of the same questions.

Frankly, for a high-level challenge, the "you can't do both just because" answer isn't going to cut it.

If I take a level 20 NPC and make it a tier 10 mythic vampire, my party of level 20 PCs with 10 tiers is going to wipe the floor with it, because those vampire abilities, while cool, pale in comparison to what the PCs get, especially with the lack of mythic initiative. Yeah, I get that mythic initiative will drastically change, but it hasn't yet.

So, my immediate thought was "okay, I'll turn a mythic NPC into a mythic vampire," but apparently that's verboten just because.

When these rules are finalized, we (as GMs) need to not have arbitrary things that can't be used together. If there's template A and template B, or mythic advancement A and mythic template B, they should work together rather than having an arbitrary "no, you can't do this" written in.

After all, why not have a level 10/mythic 10 character that's a tier 10 mythic vampire (besides the fact that it will be a really weak CR30 creature)? Or how about a level 20/mythic 5/mythic vampire 5 (in the event that someone's trying to observe some kind of hard cap at 10 mythic ties)?

The more exceptions and caveats there are in the rules, the harder they'll be to comprehend and interpret in a consistent way. Given that for mythic play the GM is going to need to use some pretty heavy interpretation in the first place, a bunch of "you can't do X" rules that are not common sense extensions of the rules will just make it really difficult for the GM.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there,

Concerning this template, we are assuming that you are either a mythic vampire with ordinary class levels and no mythic path... or... a mythic character with a path with the ordinary vampire template. You can't have both.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

but thats not make sense at all!!

what if Tom who becomes accidentally a vampire, stop from getting higher tiers from that and start tiereling´as a mythic vampire ´till 5?
mixing the rule, as the dual path feat but he only can take the 1st vampire template after the next tier hes reaching up?

it sounds more organic to me instead "you-can´t-have-both" speech!!

i argue for the good sake of the game flow, the circumstantial accident, and for the adventure flavor (not just for bonuses)

so:
to my toughs, if you want to take one monster tier ability, you need to pick the Dual Path Feat, with the only option to take vampires abilities.
and, when you´ll get the illness removed, you loose all of those benefits (sounds like loosing levels [now tiers], so, its fair enough don´t you think?).

treat the vampire template as a class path instead as a template

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