I'm re-reading Kingmaker with an aim to finally running it and while reading Rivers Run Red just came across the line, "If the PCs intervene, Grigori eloquently refutes any points they try to make". I know it's petty but it has incensed me.

The party would be the same level as him when they encounter him (near enough) and knowing my players there will be a Face character who will have insanely good social skills. Why then would Grigori be able to eloquently refute their points?

I'm thinking of having a series of opposed Perform: Oratory, Diplomacy, Bluff and Knowledge: Local (to represent that the PCs have been paying attention to what's been going on in their kingdom) checks in the form of a public forum to represent a battle for the hearts of the crowd. Just trying to figure out what would be decent DCs for the checks.

"eloquently refutes any points" pfffft.

Just have them roll and him roll and whoever gets higher wins that particular contest. After so many contests (or after one side gets a significant lead) have the crowd turn on the loser.

Grigori- best part of RRR!
It works best if you try to roleplay this scene- players at this moment should have on their account unpopular decisions , which Grigori can exploit , like withdrawing funds, heavy taxation, regular trips for adventures, low level of promotion/festival edics, probably sparing a life of werewolf murder etc. Some of these argument are named in AP.Reasonable and populist argumnets of Grigori should have a circumstance bonus in opposed check. Let them feel that their barony is not only big box of coins to crafting/shopping magic items.As a GM you are able to predict common arguments of players and overcome them. Grig is big pain in the ass, but my players were really enjoyed when they at last defeat him.

Grigori was and is awesome in our campaign. He was irritating as all get out when he arrived. (Our GM can talk circles around us in real life, and then we rolled badly too!) Eventually we got rid of him by exiling him. We cast a curse on him that would be active any time he entered our kingdom. Little did we know that he made his save and he's coming back!

Grigori was a favourite among my players to (at least favoured enemy). I did use oppoosed checks he used Perform (Oratory), while the party could choose Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate or Perform to oppose him with. It was a close run thing, but the PCs would consistently knock him off his high horse, at least until they left town on business at which point he'd start up again.

He was eventually assassinated by a rogue PC (not the class, he was an alchemist/assassin). Who was exiled from the kingdom for his crime (the player had to leave anyway). The party then had to cover up the crime so that Grigori's influential family in Pitax wouldn't find out. Fun times...

Grigori was great as well. He's the stereotyped rabble-rouser of politics, who riles people up over anything negative that has occurred in the kingdom and lays it upon the party. He'll turn anything into a negative:
- made peace with the kobolds? shame on you! explain yourselves to this grandmother who lost her son to a kobold attack (even if not the same tribe, it's all the same to the common folk)
- taxes normal? look how they live, eat, and dress! where'd that new sword or other flashy item come from? your taxes of course (even if it was paid for using treasure)
- violent? look at them, they have weapons and i have none, they will silence any voice that speaks the truth, it may be yours next!

I allowed both sides to make their points then allowed some checks. Our crew failed to disperse the mob but the Baron player detected some enthralling spell use and convinced the people on his word mind magic may have been used, which was against the law. Grigori was detained at the Inn, his room searched by neutral parties, and scrolls found that another neutral party said could be used to enchant one's will.

Our party found Grigori to be most frustrating, but that was part of the fun. Here was an enemy we couldn't just stick a sword in or fry with a spell. My bard (the ruler) had an open debate with him in the middle of the capitol the first time around, and managed to outshine him face-to-face, but his attacks kept on going.

We ended up not defeating him, in the long run, thanks to some character backstory that was incorporated into the scenario. My bard, unbeknownst to the rest of the party, was married. He'd run out on his bride a month before the start of the AP. She was the daughter of a powerful merchant in Brevoy. What began as a whirlwind romance ended in a union where she browbeat him to enter the family business and give up his life on the stage, so he ran out (much to the dismay of our resident Erastilian druid.) In any event, once the word was out that he'd become a baron, who should show up one day but the Baroness.

Now her father hadn't always been a successful merchant. He had ties to some unsavory criminal elements from his past despite "going legit." She had brought along two of his goons squeezed into footman's livery. After she began plundering the treasury to make herself more comfortable, Grigori started in on her. Shortly afterward, he was run down by the baronial coach in a tragic accident...after being stabbed. We took a hit with the unrest after that little incident.

There is a line in what I believe is the penultimate paragraph describing the Grigori encounter that a sequence of opposed diplomacy checks is sufficient to discredit Grigori in the eyes of the populace.

bhh39: I saw that moments after posting but in my nerd rage didn't want to admit that the AP had accounted for players having a duel of wits with him.

To the others: thanks. I imagine my players will love to hate Grigori too. I'm thinking of making the whole thing a bit more involved with Grigori starting off rumours in tap-rooms, secret meetings, gathering a core of dissidents and would be usurpers around him, so that when they do get rid of him - either through a direct public confrontation of ideas, arresting him and having a trial or just offing him on the quiet - there will be some unrest for a period of time afterwards as his rebellious contingent try to carry on without him. Without their charismatic and clever leader though the movement will just fizzle out. The players won't know that though and they could go on a hunt for the dissidents which may or may not increase unrest itself.

there will be some unrest for a period of time afterwards as his rebellious contingent try to carry on without him. Without their charismatic and clever leader though the movement will just fizzle out. The players won't know that though and they could go on a hunt for the dissidents which may or may not increase unrest itself.

Sounds like a bit of fun!

Just make sure the Kingdom is strong enough to survive this.
My player's kingdom was hard hit by spiralling unrest & a DC which just
got harder & harder to make. I'f it wasn't for me allowing a good idea
from one of my players - the kingdom would have crumbled. As it was, things
got bad enough for them to loose a hex.

That said though - they had a great time hating Grigory.

He was first introduced to the Kingdom when they were out of town & was
therefore only known by one or two of the NPC rulers. He'd applied for
a role on the council (all the better to accomplish his nefarious deeds).

The players were gobsmacked when they found out it was the same guy
causing all of the trouble & for the first time ever - the party bard
was handed her words on a plate as Grigory won each battle of wits &
voice.

After the last lot of kingdom building, one of the first suggestions was
to try & track Grigory down, & teach him a lesson... :)

Hypothetically, what would you DMs out there recommend if the PCs gave Grigori a job as a Chancellor in the ruling council? *eg*

I've had him lay low for many months to make them forget their suspicions, but it's about time to cause chaos.

Hypothetically, what would you DMs out there recommend if the PCs gave Grigori a job as a Chancellor in the ruling council? *eg*

I've had him lay low for many months to make them forget their suspicions, but it's about time to cause chaos.

Do whatever suits your/his purposes...

My players gave him job of Councillor..."Well, if you care so much for the
people, take this job in order to be their voice & make their lives
better..." :)
Only problem was, he didn't 'do' anything. They started asking him for
ideas, but he put them off with an - "I need to see what's happening
inside the council, before I can make suggestions on it's workings..."
This worked for a couple of months & unrest continued during that time,
& although the players thought it was him - they couldn't make their
Stability DC, so didn't find out... (He WAS being sneaky about it.)
Then there was a breakthrough in their spy apparatus, & the PCs found out
that Grigory was still quietly sowing seeds of discontent... hee hee hee...

I had great fun. Hardest job was keeping a straight face when they wanted
to employ their hardest critic yet...

I'm gonna love bringing him back!

Didn't the book say you can make opposed Diplomacy checks vs his own Diplomacy checks and beat him that way?

My players managed to outdo him in that manner, then captured him and rightfully executed him for attempted sabotage.

It was a great RP experience for us. Players didn't even try to roll it. Gist of their approaches,

General(Half orc fighter with, at this point Tuskgutters tusks fused to her jaw for a bite attack.) "Oh yeah? How about I give you a kiss with these? Have what you hold ya bastard, see if you can take me!" Bard, party leader, asked her to go away and get drunk, please.

Druid: Looks blankly before going to the dryad grove in town. "I don't do people." Oh those kegs from the carnival.

Marshal:(LG halfling monk whose attitude is somewhere between judge dread and space marine when it comes to evil.) "Is he doing EVIL? No? Then I will ignore him. If he should commit EVIL, then I will slay him, with fire." Yes, the player really does say evil like that, you can hear the capital letters and bold print.

Baron:(Human bard) "But sir, I don't understand. What is your point? No, that's not a valid argument. Saying I'm a terrible ruler doesn't change anything. What is your solution? No that isn't a valid solution because...." "I don't get it. This guy isn't making sense. He. He's acting like a politician!"

I have found a use for my political science courses after all. Nerds don't do well with tub-thumping politicking.

Yep, that's the default way to "beat" him.

If I cannot get anyone (aside from myself, of course) to win the people over and drive him out, I'll either rightfully execute him after a proper trial (*giggles a bit*) or assassinate him in a quiet but very painful manner. But if such a mongrel forces me to resort to that third option, I'll place his soul in a gem and then have it fed to the nearest Cacodaemon that I'll manage to summon in the same day. That should keep him from ever being a thorn in my side.

Didn't the book say you can make opposed Diplomacy checks vs his own Diplomacy checks and beat him that way?

Our GM definitely allowed it. He was going around playing up people's fears of another giant owlbear attack and the trolls to the south and other big monsters that might kill them at any time. My character had his whole family killed by Natala Surtova and is neurotic to the point of crazy about any of his people being killed, so he made a follow-up speech where he basically agreed with Grigori about the danger and told people to move out if they weren't willing to face the chance of a major attack by powerful forces "Grigori's owlbear and troll threats? Those I assure you the kingdom leaders have dealt with and will always continue to deal with. Those aren't anything you need to be worried about. But there's another major threat he's not aware of, so he's absolutely right that if you're frightened for your life or your livelihood, you should leave. If you've come this far though, into a frontier area, sharing my dream of a new land and a new life, then you knew there would be risks. Let me explain what the true risks are..." I beat him by over 20 (terrible roll for him, great for me), and surprisingly, the citizens didn't balk as I revealed what we had learned about the powerful spellcaster who had killed the unicorn and the fact that this spellcaster would likely return to be a threat within the kingdom leaders' lifetimes according to familiar-granted commune with Desna.

Meanwhile, the Magister determined Grigori was breaking the 5th River Freedom with his enchantment magic, so we took him to a public trial where the only crime we tried him for was violating the 5th River Freedom (other than that, he had freedom of speech by the 1st River Freedom). He was found guilty, and also the mob of people who he enchanted were starting to look like they might hurt him, so for his own safety, he received an armed escort to exile him from the kingdom. Our Magister used Share Memory to learn that Grigori had been hired by a cloaked figure in what seemed to be Fort Drelev, and then a familiar-granted commune to Desna (with some insightfully-chosen questions based on high Knowledge[Local] revealing that Grigori studied bardery in Pitax) revealed that it was actually Pitax who sent him.

All in all, it was an interesting situation with a lot of intrigue, but Grigori just got outbarded. So to the original poster, I assure you that it's not some kind of hopeless situation (though a party with no face and dumped charisma might be embarrassed by him, but in Kingmaker that seems very unlikely, given the King's Charisma-dependency).

Grigori got to do his bit in front of the party just once in my game... One of the PCs, a secret Inquisitor of Asmodeus, snuck into his room that night and killed him, dragging his body off to dump in the river.

I couldn't let that stand, so later he returned as a ghost haunting the inn.

Grigori was great as well. He's the stereotyped rabble-rouser of politics, who riles people up over anything negative that has occurred in the kingdom and lays it upon the party. He'll turn anything into a negative:

- made peace with the kobolds? shame on you! explain yourselves to this grandmother who lost her son to a kobold attack (even if not the same tribe, it's all the same to the common folk)
- taxes normal? look how they live, eat, and dress! where'd that new sword or other flashy item come from? your taxes of course (even if it was paid for using treasure)
- violent? look at them, they have weapons and i have none, they will silence any voice that speaks the truth, it may be yours next!

I allowed both sides to make their points then allowed some checks. Our crew failed to disperse the mob but the Baron player detected some enthralling spell use and convinced the people on his word mind magic may have been used, which was against the law. Grigori was detained at the Inn, his room searched by neutral parties, and scrolls found that another neutral party said could be used to enchant one's will.

I like it anything the PCs do make a truce with kobolds/wipe them out, the rabble rouser can attack.

On a side note I used Grigory in another game as an NPC who got axed to death by Grimlocks, the players loved it (even though it was not him).. ;)

"Genocide! that is their way."

In my game the party actually named the Tavern after Grigori, unaware he was spreading dissent against them. When it finally came to their attention they let the situation simmer for a long time dealing with other stuff and trying to get some dirt on him before finally confronting him.

Since nobody but the Ruler had decent social skills, he basically had to talk at Grigory alone to break the charm effect on the croud, with everyone else doing Aid Another actions. Unfortunately Grigory rolled a 20 on his Charisma roll and proceeded to get the crowd throwing vegetables at their leader.

The group finally decided to declare him persona non grata and publicly run him out of town. They gave him a day to leave, and when he hadn't left, the ruler decided to have some of the local guard "escort" him to the border, ostensibly to protect him from attack. The tavern was renamed.

After the group rooted out the cult of Gyronna, who were all hanged, the ruler decided to implicate Grigory as a member of the cult and issue a warrant for his arrest as a co-conspirator plotting to undermine the kingdom. So if he ever turns up again in the story, that would be interesting.

It's curious the lengths players will go to protect their kingdom, such as implicating Grigori as a member of the cult of Gyronna. Lol.

What would be doubly interesting is if a banished Grigori turns up later at Pitax's Rushlight tournament...

In my game the party actually named the Tavern after Grigori, unaware he was spreading dissent against them. When it finally came to their attention they let the situation simmer for a long time dealing with other stuff and trying to get some dirt on him before finally confronting him.

Since nobody but the Ruler had decent social skills, he basically had to talk at Grigory alone to break the charm effect on the croud, with everyone else doing Aid Another actions. Unfortunately Grigory rolled a 20 on his Charisma roll and proceeded to get the crowd throwing vegetables at their leader.

The group finally decided to declare him persona non grata and publicly run him out of town. They gave him a day to leave, and when he hadn't left, the ruler decided to have some of the local guard "escort" him to the border, ostensibly to protect him from attack. The tavern was renamed.

After the group rooted out the cult of Gyronna, who were all hanged, the ruler decided to implicate Grigory as a member of the cult and issue a warrant for his arrest as a co-conspirator plotting to undermine the kingdom. So if he ever turns up again in the story, that would be interesting.

Hopefully no one in the kingdom has high Knowledge Religion. Gyronna does...not-nice things to the male anatomy of any would-be male worshiper.

Hopefully no one in the kingdom has high Knowledge Religion. Gyronna does...not-nice things to the male anatomy of any would-be male worshiper.

Source? I haven't found that information anywhere but I could have missed it.

Edit: found it: Faiths of corruption

"She does not allow males into her faith, and strikes blind and impotent those she see trying to appease her."

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

Hopefully no one in the kingdom has high Knowledge Religion. Gyronna does...not-nice things to the male anatomy of any would-be male worshiper.

Source? I haven't found that information anywhere but I could have missed it.

I think it's in Faiths of Corruption, though I'm away from my books for a week. Pathfinderwiki does say her faithful are entirely female, though.

My party's royal assassin (a monk) shared a long walk off a short peer with Grigori late one night.... never saw him again. Guess he enjoyed the walk?

After we realized he didn't actually have any solutions to things we were allegedly doing wrong and was just trying to cause problems, we concluded he was an agent from a hostile faction and executed him as a spy. We then spent a bit of personal resources on settling the unrest that caused.

so you threw money at the problem after you executed him? Classic!

Thinking that NPC needs to be rebuilt using the court bard archetype.

; )

He gave my party fits. The ruler couldn't play the day they found him rousing the rabble in the town square. I thought the Mage was going to have an aplopectic fit! First the Mage cast fireball above the crowd because he figured out Grigori was using enthrall and any overt hostile action or attack would break the enchantment. While technically true, it also strengthened Grigori's point of the PC's lack of concern over their well being. Then the Mage engaged in oral battle, making good points but losing the rolls. Grigori retired to the inn and sang songs denigrating the PC's. The next day he was at it again in town square, the players got so angry I thought they might start throwing things at me! Finally they were so angry they attacked him openly, threatening any who helped him, killing him in front of the whole city. Definitely unrest that month. The emotional response from the players was so strong. They were absolutely enraged by him! The barbarian shrunk his head and wears it on a necklace!

Epic!!!

Thinking that NPC needs to be rebuilt using the court bard archetype.

; )

My Grigori is multiclassed Bard (Court Bard) with three levels of Rogue (Charlatan) with the Obfuscate Story and Steal the Story rogue talents.

I wonder if anyone has just tried to cast silence and invisibility on him?

My Grigori is multiclassed Bard (Court Bard) with three levels of Rogue (Charlatan)

Nice! Care to post your build?

Id like to see a gunslinger just shoot him, that'd be hilarious.

KenderKin wrote:

Thinking that NPC needs to be rebuilt using the court bard archetype.

; )

My Grigori is multiclassed Bard (Court Bard) with three levels of Rogue (Charlatan) with the Obfuscate Story and Steal the Story rogue talents.

Please please post that build!