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An adjustment to the way Spell-Storing items work


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hi all. I have been discussing spell-storing items, and the several posts revolving around them, over the last week or two, with VCs, VLs, Paizo staff, and active gamers in the PFS community. My previous ruling that all spell storing items start out as empty neutered those items almost completely and that is certainly not what I want to happen. So, I have reevaluated the topic, and come up with what I think is a reasonable resolution to help these items maintain their value and usefulness. Please review the updated FAQ on them.

I have also removed the link on the compilation rulings post since it is now addressed in the FAQ.

Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this resolves the issue to most players' satisfaction.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Cool, thanks Mike. :)

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks Mike! You're the absolute best!

Spoiler:
EXPLOSIVE N'ORLEANS SAINTS RUNES!

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

I agree with The Gold Goblin Mike...

You smell nice.

;)

Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

Works well enough extended to ring of Spell Knowledge for my taste. Thanks for revisiting this!

****

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Thank you Mike,

This also answers the questions I had regarding the ring of spell knowledge and PFS.

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ooh, my oracle might just grab a spell-storing morningstar now. :)

Thanks Mike!

Dark Archive ****

Nice! I'll add such items to my list of "check it out" when buying new equipment.

Scarab Sages ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Columbia , Star Voter 2013 aka Topher Hays

I am still a bit confused on the Ring of Spell Knowledge.

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer

must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell
and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the
ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as
though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.

So with the FAQ Mike posted

FAQ:
Can a spell-storing item, such as a ring of counterspells or a spell-storing weapon, carry a stored spell from one scenario to another?

Yes. An NPC spellcaster may be paid to cast a spell into a spell-storing item and it can be carried over to the next scenario if unused. The GM should note the purchase on the Chronicle sheet. Once the stored spell is used, it should be noted on that scenarios Chronicle sheet in the Conditions Cleared box.

A PC with the ability to cast spells may cast a spell into a spell-storing item that he owns and it may be carried over to the next scenario. As noted above, the GM should notate on the Chronicle sheet, in the Conditions Gained box, that the spell-storing item contains a spell at the conclusion of the scenario. Once expended, treat as above.

PCs may fill one another's spell-storing items, but if such spells are not cast during the same adventure, they are lost and are not recorded on Chronicle sheets for future use.

Since you are the one teaching the spell to the ring via your spellcraft check, does it matter if its an NPC or another PC that casts the spell when you spellcraft it?

The way I see it is ..
1.) You have a scroll and make the check, the ring is loaded.
2.) If you pay to have the spell cast and make the check, the ring is loaded
3.) If a "Bad Guy NPC" casts it and you make the check, the ring is loaded? not sure on this one.
4.) If a PC casts the spell and you make the check, the ring is loaded? but only for that scenario? not sure on this one.

Any help on clearing up my understanding would be greatly appreciated :) Thanks!

*

Thank you, Mike!


How much does it cost for a spell? Most spells are free to cast basically, and since all you do is cast it into the sword it seems it would be cheap


Paying a NPC to cast a spell for you costs (Caster level × spell level × 10 gp) + material component costs if any


so the most expensive would be 150 gp then? That sucks, but oh well

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're getting one you should either have the ability to cast the spell yourself (in which case it's just a free spell that also adds your weapon damage), or you should get a friendly party member to cast it on your weapon for free.

If you're paying someone to cast a spell into your weapon, you might be better off with a different enhancement.

*****

So a player asked me if you can pay a summoner for spellcasting services to put a spell into a spell storing item for you. It seems that you have to get a cleric or wizard if you can, but what if the spell storing item must hold an arcane spell and you want it to hold barkskin (as the player does).

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the general rule of paying for spellcasting services from NPCs is:

Use the cost for a Cleric / Wizard / Sorcerer IF the spell is typically on those spell lists (even if available as a lower level spell on another list - i.e. Lesser Restoration costs the Cleric cost not as if a Paladin were casting it.

If the spell isn't on the Cleric / Wizard / Sorcerer lists then use the level at which it is available on another list (i.e. Barkskin on the Druid's list) - but I'm not entirely sure what general PFS policy is about paying for such spells as spellcasting services.

Clearly if the character has Barkskin on their own list then casting it into the spell storing device is trivial (and clearly allowed).

If they adventure with a Druid (or other class with Barkskin available) and request it cast into their item (I'm assuming either a ring or an ioun stone here - since barkskin makes for a strange enhancement for a weapon since you cast the stored spell ON the target you just hit) then they can use this during the session trivially - and if they want to keep in for a future scenario they have to follow the latest guidance (i.e. Document it on the chronicle sheet and have the DM sign off on it)

*****

Rycaut wrote:

I think the general rule of paying for spellcasting services from NPCs is:

Use the cost for a Cleric / Wizard / Sorcerer IF the spell is typically on those spell lists (even if available as a lower level spell on another list - i.e. Lesser Restoration costs the Cleric cost not as if a Paladin were casting it.

If the spell isn't on the Cleric / Wizard / Sorcerer lists then use the level at which it is available on another list (i.e. Barkskin on the Druid's list) - but I'm not entirely sure what general PFS policy is about paying for such spells as spellcasting services.

Clearly if the character has Barkskin on their own list then casting it into the spell storing device is trivial (and clearly allowed).

If they adventure with a Druid (or other class with Barkskin available) and request it cast into their item (I'm assuming either a ring or an ioun stone here - since barkskin makes for a strange enhancement for a weapon since you cast the stored spell ON the target you just hit) then they can use this during the session trivially - and if they want to keep in for a future scenario they have to follow the latest guidance (i.e. Document it on the chronicle sheet and have the DM sign off on it)

The player wants it in a Ring of Spell Knowledge, which only taks arcane spells, not divine, and he's not a summoner. Since spells from other players don't stay in the ring, the only way he's getting barkskin for his bard is if he can get it from a summoner. I told him it may or may not be legal.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

@Rogue Eidoln,

As I understand it, since the summoner is a 'full caster' I think he uses the cost for the summoner casting it, or the druids if lower.

****

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Edit: Whoops forgot that Summoners have to wait a level to get it. My bad.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

Matthew Morris wrote:

@Rogue Eidoln,

As I understand it, since the summoner is a 'full caster' I think he uses the cost for the summoner casting it, or the druids if lower.

The precedence is not based on cost, but rather on caster class:

Wizard/Cleric/Druid > anyone else with it on their spell list if it does not appear on the "big three".

Mahtobedis wrote:
The cost is the same for both. There is not a spell list I know of where Barkskin is not a second level spell.

In this particular case, the confusion is caused by the fact that the item only works for spontaneous arcane spell casters, and only stores arcane spells. You are correct that the costs don't change, the question is not "how much," but rather "may I?"

Since the ring allows you to store arcane spells that are not on your list, and since summoners are spontaneous arcane casters, I don't see why you couldn't get one to cast barkskin into the ring in PFS. However, note that the bard would have to use a 3rd-level spell slot to cast it, per the item description.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So for a Sorcerer with a Ring of Spell Knowledge to gain Barkskin it has to be a Ring of Spell Knowledge III (13,500gp) since Barkskin isn't on his class spell list it will be stored as a level higher spell and cast as a level 3 spell.

While the Ring of Spell Knowledge is only useful to spontaneous arcane casters I don't actually see any requirement that the spell knowledge stored in it are arcane spells - it just talked in terms of you have to make a DC 20 spellcraft check on seeing the spell in a written, active or cast version. Where did you get that it has to be an arcane spell to start with?

My reading of the ring as a player, especially given the level bump is that it is intended as a mechanical way for sorcerers to both get an additional spell known & get spells they usually wouldn't be able to cast usually (but at the cost of occupying a higher level spot).

Did I miss an errate or FAQ?


Michael Brock wrote:

Hi all. I have been discussing spell-storing items, and the several posts revolving around them, over the last week or two, with VCs, VLs, Paizo staff, and active gamers in the PFS community. My previous ruling that all spell storing items start out as empty neutered those items almost completely and that is certainly not what I want to happen. So, I have reevaluated the topic, and come up with what I think is a reasonable resolution to help these items maintain their value and usefulness. Please review the updated FAQ on them.

I have also removed the link on the compilation rulings post since it is now addressed in the FAQ.

Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this resolves the issue to most players' satisfaction.

How would this work with the Magus ring that allows a Magus to store Arcana Points into his ring?

Can he store points at the end of the adventure to have them for the next?

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

Rycaut wrote:
While the Ring of Spell Knowledge is only useful to spontaneous arcane casters I don't actually see any requirement that the spell knowledge stored in it are arcane spells - it just talked in terms of you have to make a DC 20 spellcraft check on seeing the spell in a written, active or cast version. Where did you get that it has to be an arcane spell to start with?

It's not explicit, and I was going to bring that up myself, but based on the fact that it calls out "arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list" as being one level higher for purposes of casting and storing, and doesn't say anything about divine spells doing so, and the fact that it's extremely unlikely that the developer intended to give a spontaneous arcane caster a break on picking up divine spells not on their class list while penalizing picking up arcane spells not on their list, I'd say the safest bet is to go with the narrowest (or more conservative) interpretation, i.e. this only works for arcane spells.

*****

Jonathan Cary wrote:
Rycaut wrote:
While the Ring of Spell Knowledge is only useful to spontaneous arcane casters I don't actually see any requirement that the spell knowledge stored in it are arcane spells - it just talked in terms of you have to make a DC 20 spellcraft check on seeing the spell in a written, active or cast version. Where did you get that it has to be an arcane spell to start with?
It's not explicit, and I was going to bring that up myself, but based on the fact that it calls out "arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list" as being one level higher for purposes of casting and storing, and doesn't say anything about divine spells doing so, and the fact that it's extremely unlikely that the developer intended to give a spontaneous arcane caster a break on picking up divine spells not on their class list while penalizing picking up arcane spells not on their list, I'd say the safest bet is to go with the narrowest (or more conservative) interpretation, i.e. this only works for arcane spells.

Mike also previously ruled that you can't use the ring to get divine spells (or spells from an obscure witch patron like divine favor from a Strength witch) in another thread.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Mike also previously ruled that you can't use the ring to get divine spells (or spells from an obscure witch patron like divine favor from a Strength witch) in another thread.

Missed that one... Ah, here it is. Notice you started that one, guess that's why you remembered it! :)

Might want to get that added to the clarifications thread...


Nunspa wrote:

How would this work with the Magus ring that allows a Magus to store Arcana Points into his ring?

Can he store points at the end of the adventure to have them for the next?

Anyone?

*

Nunspa, I'd allow that until someone specifically said the ring didn't carry over - but only if the Magus fed the points in themselves.

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