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Create Water - How much water?


Rules Questions

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Is there a limit to how much water one can create in a day using the Create Water spell? It's an orison so it can be cast an infinite amount of times a day but surely it would get ridiculous if a 1st level cleric can just keep casting it out of combat. Its rules say it's a maximum of 2 gallons/level but is that per day or per casting? If it's per casting, casting it every 6 seconds (per round) they end up with 28,800 gallons over 24 hours!


You can cast it as many times a day you want, however, I believe the spell description says that you must have a container capable of holding it. Using phone so don't quote me


I don't really think it's that big a deal, as the only purpose of create water over long durations is for it to be consumed by people, as the spell says that is disappears after 24 hours if not consumed. Also, considering you cant *really* cast for 24 hours straight, unless you want the penalties for not sleeping, lets say you cast for 16 hours straight. IF you were casting into an olympic swimming pool, you'd only fill it about 5-6 inches deep, and then the water is gonna start disappearing again at 2gal/lvl/rd.
So i'm not sure what's happened in your game for this to be a big problem...

Edit: A Ninja ninja'd me.
You can only make the water show up somewhere it would fill a container, or up to 3 times that size, so 6gal/level
no swimming pools for us, and that'd take a lot of cups


I have cleric that uses it as a dirty trick at times, pours over a combatants, or their helmet, armor, etc suddenly has rush of water in it.


I'm not very good at visualising volumes so maybe I was overestimating exactly how much that was.
It didn't actually come up in a game, I'm just putting together some character sheets for beginners for a Legacy of Fire campaign I'm hoping to run and suddenly thought that Create Water was going to be a bit of a mad spell to have!


Jackanory wrote:
Is there a limit to how much water one can create in a day using the Create Water spell? It's an orison so it can be cast an infinite amount of times a day but surely it would get ridiculous if a 1st level cleric can just keep casting it out of combat. Its rules say it's a maximum of 2 gallons/level but is that per day or per casting? If it's per casting, casting it every 6 seconds (per round) they end up with 28,800 gallons over 24 hours!

Yes it is per casting. The water is even environmentally friendly as it vanishes after a certain time period. Yes you can use it to sustain living things (you can use it to water crops and nourish them, with the excess vanishing after 24 hours). Yes you can create resetting magical traps that produce water in incredible quantities when a button is pressed for relatively little money. Yes, it opens up a world of possibilities in a fantasy setting.

Just to mess with your mind, an adept with create water and craft wondrous item can easily craft a CL 15 resetting trap of create water. This trap costs 3,750 gp and produces 5 gallon of water every second that it is left activated. In one hour it produces 3,000 gallons of water. In 24 hours it produces 72,000 gallons of water. For a community, commissioning multiples of these traps and allowing them to run continuously is not only reasonable in expense but can allow sustained culture and civilization beyond readily available sources of water, which allow you to have population centers that are not anchored to rivers.

Twenty of these devices would take a total of about 2.5 months to produce from a single 3rd level adept, and costing 75,000 gp for the whole lot of them. When you consider the kind of income a government body makes on its people, this is not unreasonable for the advancement and growth of a community. Twenty of these devices would produce 1,440,000 per 24 hours, but then portions of that water would vanish continually, so one you had the devices operating for 24 hours they would settle into a comfortable amount that doesn't deplete nor overflow. You can increase the supply by adding more devices as the population expands. Alternatively a 250 gp individual device at CL 1 can be produced, which is enough to give a household running water on the cheap.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Compare to a Decanter of Endless Water

For 9 grand you can produce 30 gallons a round (the same as a lvl 15 cleric with create water, unless he quickens it).


For some of our campaigns we detail many of the cantrips (due to their infinite use) and have create water draw moisture from the surrounding area (soil/plants if need be) being potentially hazardous if mass used (some of our campaigns prefer not to have such a basic life sustaining element drawn upon infinity, however those campaigns reduce the abilities of most creation effects) However it just depends on your level of fantasy and if you want people basic needs easily taken care of. I would expect most cities to have magical sources of water as described above if some of them do. (magic phobia and poverty nations aside)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think create water shouldn't be an orison. As written, a dozen first-level clerics could turn a desert into farmland, and I think that's way beyond the power of a 0-level spell.

I've slightly re-written it for my campaign world as a first-level spell. As a first-level spell, I've given it some extra functionality in the "downpour" option, such that it can extinguish small nonmagical fires.

If you're interested, here's my spell write-up at my campaign site.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I love it when people put real world stuff into games.

1 acre of wheat (per averages I found on-line, may be wrong) takes about 15 acre/inches of water

This gives us about 1116 Gallons per day (365 days a year) to grow wheat on average. At a book cost of 5 gp per 2 gallons (standard spell casting cost from the core book for a 0 level spell by a 1st level caster) this would cost 2790 GP per day / acre to water.

How much does it cost to dig a well?

Or the 5gp per 2 peoples worth of drinking water (1 gallon a day for hard working people). A poor standard of living per the core book is 3 gp/ month. That water is suddenly very expensive. Much cheaper to either buy a Decanter of Endless Water, or dig a well.


I like the idea of a Device that generates water for the community...

Personally I prefer it as a 0-level spell.

But yes you can use it infinitely unfortunately it starts vanishing.


There was a post a while back (can't remember exactly where at the moment, maybe someone else can help me) describing "ways of clearing out a dungeon from the outside", wherein some clever person with an abundance of time on his hands calculated that you couldn't get the water more than a few feet deep before it would be evaporating at the same rate as you were creating it.

Now, if you had some sort of container with a very low surface area to fill up, you wouldn't have that problem...


Azaelas Fayth wrote:

I like the idea of a Device that generates water for the community...

Personally I prefer it as a 0-level spell.

But yes you can use it infinitely unfortunately it starts vanishing.

I like it because it allows us more fantastic worlds. Historically the only way you could support a civilization was to place it on large rivers or other readily available sources of water. Irrigation systems when developed helped a bit, but water is a problem even today, and California never could have fared as well as it has without an incredibly grand-scale project to get water to it (lookup California water systems).

However in a fantasy world where magic trinkets and adepts are out and about it becomes possible to place communities, large communities, or even great cities in places that wouldn't normally be feasible or even possible without killing all your people; which allows for communities or individuals to live in unusual locations. With a few magical trinkets (I say trinkets because they tend to be of minor magical measure), you can easily explain how a few villages dot otherwise inhospitable places, or provide certain conveniences to homes (a well to-do house may have a decorative fountain in their garden, and may have running water inside).

The possibilities are incredible. Even with low-level spells (3rd or less), you can very easily change the world. Instead of railing against this, let your mind soar through the endless possibilities for what it means for your world.


I love using Magic to make a Fantasy World into a Psuedo Modern world.


I think I'd rather go more towards ashiel's ex. I am not a high magic fan but an occasional "fantastic" place among the "mundane" places of my world is always fun. Think of how fantastic it must've been for rural farmers to see the temple at karnak when the doors automatically opened (by compressed air) and flames shot up from no where. Imagine the spectacle of aqueducts delivering a floating river deep into the roman interior.

Plus how cool would that be to explain to your players, as they roam these sewers beneath your city? So they round a corner and suddenly instead of the stench of sewage they find cystal clean water spouting from rows of leering faces artfully crafted on the wall.

And letting your mind wander that way, imagine chambers filled with constant cooling breezes, or ranges that cook with gas at communal bakeries thanks to tapped underground gas and spark spells. Floating cities with constant root spells to account for turbulence.

If we're supposing that we're dealing with a world where magic is real and those few folks lucky enough to cast 0 level spells can cast them forever, I think you could come up with some truly epic coolness.


I agree with that Mark Hoover. My worlds tend to have few high level Casters But those that do exist will nearly take any job on the cheap.

So Adepts might agree to make those Magical Traps that constantly fill the aquaducts at cost in exchange for them setting up a Temple/School in their town.


What if the traps also contained rays of frost? It'd make em way more expensive and I don't think they'd be spitting out ice, but you could make it a cold river underground, or even have it create thick layers of rhime everywhere.

Oh man, I've got some world building to do when I get home.


Why a Cold River? Ooooo. A fire based spell to make a Hot Springs kinda thing. Have it flow through the walls of the Buildings sort of Winterfell's castle in A Song of Ice and Fire.


A very simple method of creating an infinite steam engine is with a repeating trap of create water and one of burning hands (possibly CL 5th for more heat). One produces water into a boiler, the other heats the boiler. The whole system can be run on 2 buttons (one red, one blue). A basic steam engine existed before Christ, so adapting this sort of thing into a power source for something is not a stretch. The biggest issue with steam-based technology is the cumbersome aspect. A train engine needed entire cars of coal behind them to burn. With magic however it becomes a rather simple affair to produce steam in very large quantities. Once you've got your infinite clean-burning fuel source, the sky is the limit.


Take water trap, add other 0 levels, here's what I've come up with so far:

A moat and fountains flowing around a temple spitting out undead-disrupting water

A frigid cistern constantly balancing the magma vents deep underground

Flouride-enhanced water for the entire populace (resistance)

A low-voltage electrified pool dealing 1 pt of damage/rnd to anyone stuck in it

Fonts of Revivication: a basin constantly full of a drinkable liquid which both stabilizes and bestows 1hp to any consuming it (a handy item to build into a dungeon?)

Pools of Detection: a basin of liquid into which an item can be submerged; upon doing so if the item is magic the liquid changes color. A person suspected of being poisoned can submerge a hand at which point the water changes a different color

and for the coup de grace...

A river that ONLY flows north. I don't know what to use this for right now, but just imagine combining Know Direction, Breeze, Scoop and Create Water, en masse, to constantly propel the water in one direction. Or what about...UPHILL? Water Sculptures anyone?


3D water sprinkler from Phinies(spelling?) & Ferb.

But you wanna make the Nile?

Cheliax

Man, you guys are thinking way too small.

Stack of metal armor + Heat Metal + Create Pit + Create Water = Hot Tub Party.

If anyone can solve the depth issue they get candy.


What do you mean by Depth issue?

And we are thinking more of basic needs. And I can do you one better.

A Roman Hot Tub. A Bathtub with a small hot box underneath with an adjustable lid.

Artificial Japanese style Hot Springs.

Both are able to be done in so many ways it is rediculous.

And Why do I wanna make the water trap from the new Thundercats cartoon in the Tower of Omens?


ah this made me think of sewage systems. imagine toilets that flushed waste elsewhere, but the water would disappear after 24 hours leaving the waste behind. maybe in an Otyugh pit?


Roman style baths:

Hot room - (warning: requires serious engineering and Inteligence) find and tap natural gas; otherwise slaves/unseen servants/undead + hot coals, if nat gas then gas into furnace fitted with Spark cantrip to generate heat in boiler; boiler water constantly filling/evaporating/flowing via create water and then out to the bath

Cold room - cold water fonts a la my comments in a previous post

@ Lamont: I'm just sticking to Ashiel's idea of an adept using cantrips on the cheap but then mass producing such cantriped items for grand effect...and making sure they include create water since the thread kind of demands it.

How about some attack effects:

Dazzling Spray - create water + flare; once the trap is tripped a brilliantly illuminated water spout begins; once every round it targets 1 creature w/in sight of the trap to make a save or be dazzled (the light inside the crystaline spray bounces and flares chaotically)

Gorespray Disruption - for fans of the evil dead movies; once the trap is triggered a create water/prestidigitation/daze effect goes off; a horizontal gout of "gore" explodes out of the wall into the face of the victim; failed save = victim trapped in the spray, befuddled and disgusted so badly that they forefit all actions that round

And y'know, that last one gives me a horrible idea...

River of Gore - add multiple prestidigitations to your eternal create water traps to make a really gross necromantic-inspired watercourse

Soaking fix - immerse your broken items to "wash" them fixed with mending; requires you leave the item submerged for 10 minutes.

Viewing Veil - a falling veil of water descends from the wall creating a sort of vertical screen behind which is a small bookstand. If you place a magical text on this stand the words are projected, translated as if by read magic, onto the surface of the veil for you to read

Soda Fountain - an elaborate sink with numerous levers and pulls surrounding a single spigot. Choosing different selections adds a number of flavors, fizzing effects, colors and sweeteners (prestidigitations) to the water for customizable beverages

Whisper Fonts - installed in plazas, cathedrals or other large gathering places you deposit a coin, gesture to the recipient and then whisper your message into an everful font; instantaneously an adjoining font nearby rings and the recipient, upon stepping up to the device hears your message.

Leaping Lanterns - spouts of timed create water/dancing lights that bounce and play across an open square or plaza

Aqua Friends - upon entering a building each noble is assigned an extremely minor magical construct; each time they pass a font they can cause their aqua friend to bubble up; each creation is a foot tall, holds items like a mage hand, can assume multiple amusing shapes, colors and illuminations and can whisk off to deliver messages to indicated recipients.


Thank you Mark Hoover... You keep adding things that will be added to my world.


Glad to help; this is a lot of fun. I thought of one more last night:

Fatiguing Goremist: along the same lines as the Gorespray Disruption, except that this is essentially a gigantic shower; when it activates every round someone stands w/in the spray they are Fatigued (DC 13 Fort save negates); since it's not a heavy mist it doesn't obscure vision/grant concealment; rather the create water shower acts as the touch attack component to deliver a touch of fatigue spell.

I came up with an interesting encounter last night, after making this trap. Place the Fatiguing Goremist in an open hall and also add some zombies (I'm dealing with level 3 characters, so for higher level you could have more powerful undead).


Actually Zombies, especially Fast Zombies, and Skeletons would be interesting to put alongside this trap.

I am now going to make a Trap for temples where they have a Holy Water shower...


I love when people start mixing magic and physics...

Water has a very high specific heat. That means that heating water takes a LOT of energy. A LOT. That's why you see steam train engines with a whole boxcar of coal behind the engine. It takes a whole boxcar full of coal to heat enough water to move the train to the next coal loading station.

Spells like burning hands or even fireball simply don't generate that much heat. Not as they are written. Of course the whole thing is silly to compare magical to physics, but if you are going to try to construct "magical trap steam engines" you should at least understand the tremendous amount of heat needed to boil thousands of gallons of water.

It's a lot. A whole lot.

This is just one reason water tends to be very good at putting out fires.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I love when people start mixing magic and physics...

Water has a very high specific heat. That means that heating water takes a LOT of energy. A LOT. That's why you see steam train engines with a whole boxcar of coal behind the engine. It takes a whole boxcar full of coal to heat enough water to move the train to the next coal loading station.

Spells like burning hands or even fireball simply don't generate that much heat. Not as they are written. Of course the whole thing is silly to compare magical to physics, but if you are going to try to construct "magical trap steam engines" you should at least understand the tremendous amount of heat needed to boil thousands of gallons of water.

It's a lot. A whole lot.

This is just one reason water tends to be very good at putting out fires.

I was thinking Heat Metal enchanted Traps. You also have to remember that Magic Items don't have to follow the spell description. The items are just using the spells power sympathetically to generate the desired effect.

After all a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack doesn't follow the rules for Secret Chest.

EDIT: or better yet a Create Water & Heat Metal enchanted Boiler that automatically generates large volumes of Steam.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I love when people start mixing magic and physics...

I love you and your stuff on these boards AD, but I'm reminded of the punchline of a comic (blanking on the name) who screamed "F*** you it's MAAAGICCC!" I adhere to this and the rule of cool, as well as spell levels and quantities to make the above-mentioned stuff.


Mark Hoover wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I love when people start mixing magic and physics...
I love you and your stuff on these boards AD, but I'm reminded of the punchline of a comic (blanking on the name) who screamed "F*** you it's MAAAGICCC!" I adhere to this and the rule of cool, as well as spell levels and quantities to make the above-mentioned stuff.

The "rule of cool" is one of those things that I find bends the walls of verisimilitude more drastically than most other game concepts.

My problem with this sort of thing is that it tries to "be cool" by blending physics and magic but when someone says "um.. but physics doesn't work that way" they say "But it's MAAAGGIIICCC!!!!"

Fine. Then make a magic engine. Why the hell do you want to make a magic STEAM engine?

Just make a magic engine and stop trying to pretend that you are using magic and physics together. Isn't that cool enough for you?

Just say "you use these spells and you create something that moves." The problem is when someone tries to EXPLAIN "how it works" when they clearly don't know "how it works" in the real world.

That's not cool. Not to geeks like me.


So...how to make a steam engine then?


@AD: What would power the engine? say Animate Object?
EDIT: I am legitimately asking the above question.

If you make something similar to a real life system it is simpler. After all Pathfinder's magic system is Sympathetic not Literal.


This is probably one reason I'm not a big fan of steampunk...

If it were me I would be interested in what I wanted to do, and then decide HOW to do it based on magical spells. If I wanted, for example, to create something that would power my castle in a magical world, I don't think building a magical steam engine would be the first thing that would pop into my head. I'd probably think more in terms of creating an animated construct which did what I wanted it to do.

Let's say I wanted something to help with grinding corn. I'd probably just animate a grinding stone so that it turned itself. Why would I even think about taking a bunch of water, boiling it, applying Boyle's Law (which I doubt would be known, and may not even exist in the fantasy world) convert the expanding steam into mechanical work to push a rod, use that rod to drive a gear, use that gear to spin an axis, and put a grinding wheel on that axis?

The only reason we use steam engines in real life is because we can't tell the wheels of our trains to just turn on their own.


Jackanory wrote:
I'm not very good at visualising volumes so maybe I was overestimating exactly how much that was.

Average bath tub holds 50 gallons. Sorry if someone else said it already.


@AD: Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium has a Moving Castle Stat Block...

Also Helleniistic(spelling?) societies had steam engines albeit they were small compact systems mainly used for low energy tasks.

Strangely if you made a Light Wooden cart they can be propelled by these small engines. Heck, here in South-West Missouri we have an Amish community where that is their primary mode of Transit when leaving there township.

Will they move a Metal Car or a Train? No. Will it provide a large amount of power for its size? Yes. Are they easy to build? Yes.


Azaelas, please refer me to any source of Hellenistic society using a steam engine for anything other than Hero's spinning globe which did nothing but spin. I am not aware of any such devices in ancient Greece, Rome or any other ancient society.

Again, if I am using magic, the whole concept of a steam engine would strike me as a crazy Rube Goldberg contraption that does nothing but waste energy that I can magically apply directly to the wheels or other components I actually want to move. It makes no sense.

Also steam engines which produce any significant power are only as efficient as their valves and seals are. A steam engine that can be used to power anything is a fairly complex device requiring a means to seal the piston and cylinder, and time the opening and closing of valves very precisely.

Then you have to convert the motion of the rod mechanically into something usable, which is almost universally a spinning axle. Then you have to...

Ah hell, why do I care?

Do whatever you want, no matter how completely nonsensical it is from any rational, logical or physical perspective.


Roman had crying statues powered by Steam Engines.

Remember Animate Objects is a 6th Level spell.

Burning Hands and Create Water are 1st and 0-level spells respectfully.

Also you have to remember Medieval Technology is surprisingly efficient compared to modern tech.

Trust me I have worked on Steam Engines and even Pneumatic engines.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
@AD: Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium has a Moving Castle Stat Block...

:D


Ravingdork wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
@AD: Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium has a Moving Castle Stat Block...
:D

The Avatar fits perfectly...


Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Roman had crying statues powered by Steam Engines.

Remember Animate Objects is a 6th Level spell.

Burning Hands and Create Water are 1st and 0-level spells respectfully.

Also you have to remember Medieval Technology is surprisingly efficient compared to modern tech.

Trust me I have worked on Steam Engines and even Pneumatic engines.

Trust you? I have a degree in physics, and have researched steam engines of many types for years.

"crying statues powered by steam engines?"

Prove it. Link to one. Show me the "engine" being used and how it "powers" a "crying statue."

What happened to the routine use of "low energy" steam engines in ancient Greece?

I call b&!@+%&~. Not that I actually care.


Try looking into the Statue of Diana or the Bleeding Statue of Achilles.

They both used Steam Engines to turn water cranks using pressure.

Quite a few Temples had Artificial Hot Springs.

Look into the Macedonian Steam Ballistae. It was a Ballistae that was maneuvered thanks to a small steam engine. The fire of which was also used to ignite the bolts of the weapon.

All it takes is a small boiler, a single piston, and correct application of power to generate sufficient power for things we take for granted.

EDIT: You really wanna see an example of complicated steam engine use?

Look into the Steam Tools used by some cultures to increase tool production.


So I did a google search for "Macedonian Steam Ballistae". It returned nothing but a reference to "Macedonian Ballistae" which is quite ordinary and had no steam "engine" at all.

The "crying statues" Google is aware of are mostly hoax religious statues that supposedly cry for religious, not engineering reasons.

Explain to me why I would build a steam engine to power some "water crank" to make a statue cry when all I need to do is run a tube to the eyeball from the boiler and the water will condense there and "cry" without the extraneous nonsense?

This is what you've got? Seriously?

Oh well, I suppose your sources of information are vastly superior to, you know, Google.

Update: You gotta admire those Romans. They take their most advanced steam technology which can power water pumps and move water through pipes, and decide to employ them surreptitiously to create hoax "crying statues" instead of, oh, I dunno, actually powering their water system from it.

Real wizards those Roman engineers.


A Water Crank is a form of mid-line water pump. The term crank is used simply because of the way it works. the only reason they used a small steam engine for this is simply so they didn't need an adept to turn the crank.

The Macedonian Steam Ballistae were small in number and primarily used for defense rather than offense. Hence Maneuvered not powered. They used the Engine to increase the Ballistae's rotational speed.

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