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Clarifications for using Chakrams in melee


Rules Questions

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Mergy wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Mergy wrote:


If you're playing PFS, you need to wear heavy armour to wear heavy armour. It's not wearing gauntlets that prevents the chakrams from damaging you by the rules, it's the wearing of heavy armour. If there was heavy armour that only covered my eyebrows, I still wouldn't be hurt while using chakrams.

Remind me to never play a PFS game then. RAW is not end-all. Sometimes the rules are incorrect or conflicting. That's why there are DMs.

And, I hope you don't actually subscribe to what you just said, because it's absolutely lacking in common sense. It was simply an exaggerated example to make your point, right?

I'm with Ravingdork on this one. If you're wearing some kind of gauntlets or metal hand coverings, you're good.

PFS and organized play in general needs rules. Of course my point was an exaggeration: there's no eyebrow armour in Pathfinder.

GMs are around to arbitrate for issues where there are no rules, but in the chakram's case the rules are clear. Merely wearing gauntlets is not enough, you need splint mail or better.

Interestingly enough, scale mail (a medium armour) includes gauntlets. Banded mail (a heavy armour) does not. Therefore it's not the gauntlets protecting the wearer necessarily.

GMs are also there to distinguish between RAW and RAI. If you are saying that PFS does not acknowledge the existence of RAI, then I repeat my distaste for a PFS game. Of course organized play needs rules. But, as we can ALL agree, the rules conflict sometimes, or are just flat out wrong.

To be fair, I will agree that the inherent dangers of wielding Chakram in combat is not JUST from the hands gripping the sharp, bladed inner edge, however. If you're not protected (heavy armor) or smooth (dex check), you definitely run the risk of slicing a bicep or your chest with the curved outer edge during a follow-through or particularly vicious parry or riposte that knocks your arm backwards.

I thought the Ultimate Equipment now included rules for piecemeal armor, though...is that not allowed as source material in a PFS campaign?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Piecemeal armour isn't in PFS.

Of course a GM can distinguish between RAW and RAI. At that point, we ask our campaign GM Michael Brock to make a ruling. The goal is no table variation; it's not an achievable goal, but we're not meant to change rules because we don't like them.


Mergy wrote:

Piecemeal armour isn't in PFS.

Of course a GM can distinguish between RAW and RAI. At that point, we ask our campaign GM Michael Brock to make a ruling. The goal is no table variation; it's not an achievable goal, but we're not meant to change rules because we don't like them.

Well, then, that settles that. Gauntlets are not Gauntlets in their eyes at a PFS event.

I'm not saying change the rule because I don't like it. I say change the rule only when RAW clearly disagrees with RAI.


So in PFS my mithril full plate won't protect me as it counts as medium armor for everything but proficiency but hide armor with an armored skirt (not sure if those are allowed in PFS or not) will. :(


Bertious wrote:
So in PFS my mithril full plate won't protect me as it counts as medium armor for everything but proficiency but hide armor with an armored skirt (not sure if those are allowed in PFS or not) will. :(

Sadly:

"Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory
Only the 2nd printing of this book or the 1st printing augmented by the current errata (released 7/21/11) are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Everything in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions: a pseudodragon is not legal for purchase unless you're a wizard with the Improved Familiar feat, elephants are never legal for play, and armored kilts are not legal."

Too bad, because that would have solved things right away.

Peet


Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

I wouldnt call heavy armor stopping chakram damage a limitation which means your not losing it with mithril. Mithiril makes the armmor easier to use but something that isnt a limitation on the armor shouldn't go away.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Talonhawk is correct. For mithral, always give yourself the best of both worlds.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
If you're wearing gauntlets in melee combat, you're likely wearing heavy armor.

In my experience, heavy armor is pretty rare.

Gauntlets, especially spiked gauntlets, are extremely common. Especially for wizards and ranged attackers who want to threaten but need their hands free for other things.

And given that heavy armor exists which doesn't include gauntlets, and most medium armor also includes gauntlets, writing the chakram description to say "heavy armor" when they really mean gauntlets makes no sense.

Barry Armstrong wrote:
If you're wearing gauntlets in melee combat and are NOT wearing heavy armor, you are probably taking penalties. ESPECIALLY if you don't have heavy armor proficiency.

You seem to be under the impression that gauntlets are not simple light melee weapons, and that armor proficiency has some kind of effect on them.

Even if you're not proficient with the gauntlets, all that does is apply a -4 non-proficiency penalty to attacks made with the gauntlets, not to anything else you're doing. So even though a wizard isn't proficient, he can still wear them and threaten to help his allies gain flanking or sneak attack or whatever. (Not that it's usually a good idea to be in the middle of combat as a wizard, but it happens)

Barry Armstrong wrote:
Since the most common metal hand covering would be gauntlets, and gauntlets are most commonly associated with heavy armor, the developers used those semantics.

I see a lot more spiked gauntlets than normal ones, since you don't provoke when you use them. (and bigger die, if that matters) And there's only one type of medium armor that doesn't include gauntlets. So isn't it possible that the developers meant what they wrote? Instead of intending something that makes no sense at all?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What about Heavy Armor protects you from Chakram damage?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The fact that it is heavy armour. Nothing else is needed.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Adamantine Armored Kilt will do just fine.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Armoured Kilts aren't allowed in PFS. In a different game where you could combine medium armour and an armoured kilt, you would be perfectly fine with a chakram.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, Adamantine armor of any kind does the trick.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, Adamantine armor of any kind does the trick.

Why is that?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Grick wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, Adamantine armor of any kind does the trick.

Why is that?

DR.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Grick wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, Adamantine armor of any kind does the trick.
Why is that?
DR.

Well, that will help reduce the damage you take.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Grick wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, Adamantine armor of any kind does the trick.

Why is that?

DR.

Damage Reduction ONLY protects you from ATTACKS, not from mishandling your weapon like an idiot.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why would DR not apply to this damage?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why would DR not apply to this damage?

Because, like falling damage, it's not an attack made against you.

Read the DR rules. It clearly only ever applies against attacks. Always has.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would say the DR should protect you. It is essentially you attacking yourself.

DR would not block a vicious weapon however.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why would DR not apply to this damage?

A medium chakram deals 1d8, so half that to yourself is 1d4. Medium adamantine armor only has DR 2. So even if DR applies, it's not going to remove all the damage. (And both sections on DR, Glossary & UMR, uses attack and weapon pretty much interchangeably.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mergy wrote:

I would say the DR should protect you. It is essentially you attacking yourself.

DR would not block a vicious weapon however.

Well it won't.

I thought this was a "RAW only" thread. There's no room here for peoples' silly homebrew RAI interpretations. This is the RULES forum. /sarcasm

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeesh Ravingdork. Can we cut the hostility?

I'll look up the DR rules in the various books they are posted. I'm not going to trade stupid barbs with you though.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This weapon is not a good choice for PFS.

I do not like the mechanic of this weapon.

To me, it's like attacking with an unarmed strike, and having the chance of anally fisting yourself, because you forgot to wear a metal shirt.

I see how it works RAW, and I do not like it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I can see a rather esoteric build combined with the belt of hurling from UE; you would be a pretty bad thrower up to that point however.


Mergy wrote:
I can see a rather esoteric build combined with the belt of hurling from UE; you would be a pretty bad thrower up to that point however.

Well, I played my first PFS game today using this character. The idea is that he'll be a two-weapon thrower and a two-weapon fighter. Basically if it comes down to it, the idea that I don't have to worry about which items I have in my hands is useful. But at 1st level, melee fighting with 2 chakrams and a Reflex save of 2 probably means that I kill myself in about 3-4 rounds of fighting. :P

But later on in this character's life it becomes a better option. Things like Weapon Focus and Specialization work better if you can use the same weapon for both melee and ranged. And a Chakram does 1d8 so I'm not sacrificing anything damage-wise, except crits.

I'd prefer not to wear heavy armor for mobility and armor check issues, but it looks like I won't be able to do both at once. Mithral is a possibility but mithral heavy armor is very expensive.

Speaking of heavy armor (and derailing the thread a bit) what is a good set of heavy armor for keeping the armor check penalties low? I have a 15 Dex and that will likely increase so I want to keep a dex bonus. Is agile half plate good or is it a trap?

Peet


Peet wrote:
what is a good set of heavy armor for keeping the armor check penalties low? I have a 15 Dex and that will likely increase so I want to keep a dex bonus. Is agile half plate good or is it a trap?

Masterwork Agile half-plate will give you 8 AC, -3 penalty to climb and jump, and -6 penalty to everything else (Acrobatics except jumping, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim)

Masterwork full plate or O-yoroi will give you 10 AC, and -5 to Str/Dex skills. Tatami-do will be the same once your dex increases. (It's cheaper, too)

Is an extra +2 to climb and jump worth 2 AC and -1 to all the rest?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Are you a fighter? You may need to take armour training into account.


Peet wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I can see a rather esoteric build combined with the belt of hurling from UE; you would be a pretty bad thrower up to that point however.

Well, I played my first PFS game today using this character. The idea is that he'll be a two-weapon thrower and a two-weapon fighter. Basically if it comes down to it, the idea that I don't have to worry about which items I have in my hands is useful. But at 1st level, melee fighting with 2 chakrams and a Reflex save of 2 probably means that I kill myself in about 3-4 rounds of fighting. :P

But later on in this character's life it becomes a better option. Things like Weapon Focus and Specialization work better if you can use the same weapon for both melee and ranged. And a Chakram does 1d8 so I'm not sacrificing anything damage-wise, except crits.

I'd prefer not to wear heavy armor for mobility and armor check issues, but it looks like I won't be able to do both at once. Mithral is a possibility but mithral heavy armor is very expensive.

Speaking of heavy armor (and derailing the thread a bit) what is a good set of heavy armor for keeping the armor check penalties low? I have a 15 Dex and that will likely increase so I want to keep a dex bonus. Is agile half plate good or is it a trap?

Peet

Sohei monk can get good used of throwing chakrams with many attacks, weapon training etc.

Cheliax Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Peet wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I can see a rather esoteric build combined with the belt of hurling from UE; you would be a pretty bad thrower up to that point however.

Well, I played my first PFS game today using this character. The idea is that he'll be a two-weapon thrower and a two-weapon fighter. Basically if it comes down to it, the idea that I don't have to worry about which items I have in my hands is useful. But at 1st level, melee fighting with 2 chakrams and a Reflex save of 2 probably means that I kill myself in about 3-4 rounds of fighting. :P

But later on in this character's life it becomes a better option. Things like Weapon Focus and Specialization work better if you can use the same weapon for both melee and ranged. And a Chakram does 1d8 so I'm not sacrificing anything damage-wise, except crits.

I'd prefer not to wear heavy armor for mobility and armor check issues, but it looks like I won't be able to do both at once. Mithral is a possibility but mithral heavy armor is very expensive.

Speaking of heavy armor (and derailing the thread a bit) what is a good set of heavy armor for keeping the armor check penalties low? I have a 15 Dex and that will likely increase so I want to keep a dex bonus. Is agile half plate good or is it a trap?

Peet

Don't forget to get a Blink Back Belt from Ultimate Equipment. This is pretty key if you want to utilize full attacks and throwing chakram.

I currently have a fighter at 8th level (no archetype, straight fighter) and he's pretty awesome to play, regardless of the endless Xena jokes.

[Edit] By the way, Ultimate Combat lists chakram under the weapon group Heavy Blades, so no TWF with them.

I just went the PBS --> Rapid Shot --> Deadly Aim route with an additional focus on melee attacks. Essentially, he's a switch hitter, and extremely effective.


Drogon wrote:
Don't forget to get a Blink Back Belt from Ultimate Equipment. This is pretty key if you want to utilize full attacks and throwing chakram.

Yes, that's very good, but ultimately the belt of mighty hurling is more important, I think. Basic chakrams are very cheap and only weigh as much as a dagger, so I don't mind carrying a lot of them.

Drogon wrote:
[Edit] By the way, Ultimate Combat lists chakram under the weapon group Heavy Blades, so no TWF with them.

For the two-weapon fighting rules there is no weapon type referred to as "heavy." Weapon Groups only exist for the purposes of the Weapon Training class feature. They have no bearing on whether the weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed. Some weapon groups include all three categories, and some weapons fall into more than one category.

Peet

Cheliax Owner - Enchanted Grounds

I don't know that I agree with the idea that they put a light weapon capable of gaining all the benefits from TWF in the heavy blade listing, but I can see where your point is. The only problem you may have is that this is for PFS. GMs are more likely to say its not a light, one handed weapon, due to its placement there and impose the more restrictive penalties on you, as though you were using two long swords. After all, you used the star knife as a basis for your reasoning that it would qualify as light, and that weapon is in the light blades group.

And, personally, quick draw with rapid shot and the blink back belt seems as though you'd be doing more damage than the mighty hurling option, but I'm not an optimizer and don't know the math. Plus, I don't have to carry around a dozen chakram to be able to handle longer lasting ranged combats; just the two. Just my opinion, though.


Are there any (other) light melee weapons that do 1d8 damage? If not, I don't think I'd accept the chakram as a light melee weapon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

It's quite clear... the chakram is designed as a thrown weapon and melee u se is mainly intended as emergency only. Not even Xena uses them for melee most of the time. :) You need those heavy gloves to fully protect yourself and you're still going to be 5 percent off on your hit chance.

Now if you want to go Tron on them, you need the returning enchant.


LazarX wrote:
It's quite clear... the chakram is designed as a thrown weapon and melee use is mainly intended as emergency only. Not even Xena uses them for melee most of the time. :)

Colette Brunel does, though. (aasimar switch-hitter ranger with the angel wings and quick steal feats?)


Drogon wrote:
The only problem you may have is that this is for PFS. GMs are more likely to say its not a light, one handed weapon, due to its placement there and impose the more restrictive penalties on you...

For PFS play the weapon group will have no bearing on whether a weapon is light or not, because PFS is strictly RAW. It may be that the RAI implication of the weapon group list is that they are heavy weapons also means they are one-handed or two-handed weapons, but there is no rule that says so.

You will also note that for weapon groups there is no "heavy" and "light" category for any other weapon. Axes, Hammers, Flails, Monk weapons all are categories that span multiple hand categories.

James Jacobs said they were light weapons because he said he couldn't envision someone using a chakram two-handed. I agree. They also only weigh one pound.

If someone were to tell me that a chakram does too much damage for what it is, I would be inclined to agree. A chakram does more damage than a throwing axe (one die type more) and has better range. However, a throwing axe doesn't have any penalties for using it in melee, whereas the chakram does. Even if my armor protects me from hurting myself I still take a -1 to hit.

Drogon wrote:
And, personally, quick draw with rapid shot and the blink back belt seems as though you'd be doing more damage than the mighty hurling option...

There's no reason I can't use quick draw and rapid shot with the belt of mighty hurling. Though I'm not sure I'd get rapid shot because I have to take precise shot as a prereq.

You know, I thought Blinkback worked like Returning, where you get the items back at the end of the round, but I see that you can actually throw the same weapon multiple times in the same round. That allows you to put your money into enhancement bonuses on the weapons instead of having multiple weakly enchanted chakrams. Interesting... I'd have to think about it. Certainly at high levels the greater belt of mighty hurling is the best bet since it imparts returning to all thrown weapons, as well as making strength the key ability and giving a +4 strength. But it does cost nine times as much.

As it stands right now, the lesser belt increases my to hit chance and damage by +3 when throwing, while the greater belt will give me +4. The same belts also enhance my melee attacks.

So the blinkback belt might be good until I can afford the hurling belt, but I think the hurling belt is still the way to go.

Peet

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