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1st attempt at a new class


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew


Kind of a hybrid fighter/rogue, elements of duelist. I'm looking for feedback in regards to balance (is it over/under powered?), logical progression (do these abilities make sense, and are they given at appropriate levels?), attractiveness (does this look fun to play?), and any other tweaks, suggestions, etc.
Thanks!

Class: Silver-tongued Devil

Alignment: any non-lawful

Hit die: d10

Skills per level: 4+int mod

Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Good save : reflex
Poor saves : Fort & Will

Weapon and armor proficiencies: Silver-tongued Devils are proficient with all simple weapons and with Light armor, but not shields.

Class features and advancement

1) Bonus Feat
2) Sneak attack +1d6
3) Forceful Personality, preferred weapon(s)
4) Evasion, Uncanny Dodge
5) Bonus Feat
6) Sneak attack +2d6
7) Weapon training 1
8) Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9) Bonus Feat
10) Sneak attack +3d6
11) Snappy Comeback
12) Improved Evasion
13) Bonus Feat
14) Sneak attack +4d6
15) Weapon Training 2
16) (Advanced) Rogue Talent
17) Bonus Feat
18) Sneak attack +5d6
19) Cha +2
20) Bonus Feat, Sneak attack +6d6, Rogue Talent

Bonus Feat
As the Fighter Class feature

Sneak attack
As the Rogue class feature

Preferred Weapon(s)
A Silver-tongued Devil may select a number of weapons equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1). He is considered proficient with these weapons.

Forceful Personality
A Silver-tongued Devil may substitute his Charisma modifier in place of his Strength modifier on attack and damage rolls with his preferred weapons. In addition, a Silver-tongued Devil may add his Charisma modifier to his AC and all saving throws, while wearing light or no armor, not carrying a medium or heavier load, and wielding one or more of his preferred weapons.

Evasion
As the Rogue class feature

Uncanny Dodge
As the Rogue class feature

Weapon Training
As the Fighter class feature, however the only weapon group available to a Silver-tongued Devil is "preferred weapons"

Rogue Talent
As the Rogue Class feature

Snappy Comeback
Upon being struck by an enemy in melee combat, a Silver-tongued Devil may spend an immediate action to make a retaliatory strike against the foe that successfully hit him. If the foe fails a reflex saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha mod), they are considered flat-footed to this attack. A Silver-tongued Devil may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Cha +2
This is an untyped bonus to Charisma, stackable with all others, as though it were gained through 8 levels of character advancement.

Shadow Lodge

First off, what's the BAB bonus. I worry that a full BAB would overpower this class. Also, what are it's weapon and armor proficiencies.

As far as theme goes, you'll need something to pull this together, like a different name. Silver Tongued Devil makes it sound like it would be a class designed around lies and/or diplomacy. You'll need some theme for the abilities.

As for the Preferred Weapons, you need to move it. It's a fine ability for first level. Class granted weapon proficiency need to be available right from the start, for the sake of building feats and such.

I would also separate evasion and uncanny dodge.

I was given this advice once (don't remember who) and I stand by it. No class should be better at combat than a Fighter. No class should be better at sneaking then a Rogue. No class should be better at magic than a Wizard. These are your guide lines. If this is a mix of both Rogue and Fighter, then it should not be as good as a Fighter in combat or as sneaky as a Rogue. Otherwise, it takes away from those classes.


Also, an ability that allows Charisma to be used for both attack and damage rolls is pretty powerful and should not (in my opinion) be given to a class in addition to an untyped (also called inherent) bonus to Charisma. If you remove that bonus, it could be considered acceptable as you're just consolidating his required abilities. Now, the ability to add Charisma modifier to both his AC and All saving throws, that's broken when added to attack and damage rolls. In my opinion, it should have one of the three. Attack and damage, armor class, or saving throws. Not all three.

Also, do you intend to be able to add charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls on bows? I think this should be limited to melee weapons, personally.

Consolidating basically all the important combat stats (AC, saves, Attack and Damage rolls) into a single stat is broken IMHO.


I would separate it a step from the fighter by removing the 1st level bonus feat. Substitute it with one or more features that will help define the class. Rogues have sneak attack, barbarians have rage, bards have bardic performance, etc. A wide open door on feats helps define the fighter.

You might bring your third level features to first level, keeping them in spirit but not as written.


@ Sphen

I knew I forgot something. Proficiencies. Thanks for the catch.
For the BAB, I presumed that all d10 HD classes had full progression.

For the lies/diplomacy aspect, I figured that having all of the cha- based skills as class skills would lend itself pretty readily to a class that bases itself on Charisma. My basic idea was to have a suave, debonair,fighting character, kind of like the Duelist, but based on Cha rather than Int.

As far as separating Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, I'm not opposed to it, I'm just not sure where I'd put them. Basically, I thought that my standard block of class features would be 1) bonus feat 2) sneak attack 3) something new, cool and different, and 4) Some sort of other rogue-y goodness. Since any class that gets uncanny dodge also gets something else at the same level, and most classes that get Evasion do likewise, I'd just put them together.

So, does this class, then, in your opinion, fight better than the fighter or become more stealthy than the rogue? (By the way, I think that class is called Inquisitor) I know it certainly doesn't cast better than the wizard...

@ MechE

An untyped bonus is not an inherent bonus. Inherent bonuses are those things that are gained from manuals, and I think a couple of sorcerer bloodlines. That being said, is a +2 at 19th level really too much? If you think it is, I can respect that, but it didn't seem all that OP to me. Then again, that's why I'm asking the public...

Perhaps the Forceful Personality is a bit OP. Maybe I could just have it replace the strength mod on Attack rolls, but not damage. Kind of like weapon finesse, just for Cha, not Dex. I did want to give the class a bit of added protection, as they are aimed at being a lightly armored melee fighter. Basically, my model was the Duelist's Canny Defense. However, I figured that the whole "one point of bonus per class level" was silly, and since the ability comes at level 3 (to discourage power dipping), just going whole hog and saying "here's Cha to AC" wasn't too bad..... But, adding Cha to AC, saves and attacks is too powerful, so I guess that I shouldn't bring up Paladins, right? =)
Maybe just Fort and Will, since they have poor saves there?

No, in all seriousness, this was the crux of my "is it OP" question. Seems like "yes, a tad OP"

BTW, yes, if a player selects bows, they can use their cha mod in place of str. How that helps them is debatable. Of course, in the revised plan (cha replaces str on attack rolls, not damage), it doesn't matter.

@ Ciaran Barnes

The only reason that I'd like to keep the special ability at 3rd is to discourage power dipping. I mean, really, an Aasimar Monk1/STD1/whateverX Has 3 stats that straight up add to AC at lv2. (wow, I just realized that acronym...maybe I'm missing immunity to disease on these guys...?) Maybe I could separate the benefits over a few levels? Such as lv1, gets preferred weapons and Cha to attack. Lv3, gets cha to AC, with restrictions. Lv5, gets Saves.

@ Everyone

Thanks for taking time to respond! I really do appreciate everyone's input, ( read: don't let my smart-ass nature fool you.)


Updated progression

Class: Silver-tongued Devil

Alignment: any non-lawful

Hit die: d10

Skills per level: 4+int mod

Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Good save : reflex
Poor saves : Fort & Will

Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
Silver-tongued Devils are proficient will all simple weapons and with light armor, but not shields.

Class features and advancement

1) preferred weapon(s), Forceful Personality 1
2) Sneak attack +1d6, Uncanny Dodge
3) Forceful Personality 2, Bonus Feat
4) Evasion
5) Bonus Feat, Forceful Personality 3
6) Sneak attack +2d6
7) Weapon training 1
8) Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9) Bonus Feat
10) Sneak attack +3d6
11) Snappy Comeback
12) Improved Evasion
13) Bonus Feat
14) Sneak attack +4d6
15) Weapon Training 2
16) (Advanced) Rogue Talent
17) Bonus Feat
18) Sneak attack +5d6
19) Cha +2
20) Bonus Feat, Sneak attack +6d6, Rogue Talent

Bonus Feat
As the Fighter Class feature

Sneak attack
As the Rogue class feature

Preferred Weapon(s)
A Silver-tongued Devil may select a number of weapons equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1). He is considered proficient with these weapons.

Forceful Personality 1
A Silver-tongued Devil may substitute his Charisma modifier in place of his Strength modifier on attack rolls with his preferred weapons.

Forceful Personality 2
In addition, a Silver-tongued Devil may add his Charisma modifier to his AC while wearing light or no armor, not carrying a medium or heavier load, and wielding one or more of his preferred weapons.

Forceful Personality 3
A Silver-tongued Devil may add his Charisma modifier to his Fort and Will saving throws while wearing light or no armor, not carrying a medium or heavier load, and wielding one or more of his preferred weapons.

Evasion
As the Rogue class feature

Uncanny Dodge
As the Rogue class feature

Weapon Training
As the Fighter class feature, however the only weapon group available to a Silver-tongued Devil is "preferred weapons"

Rogue Talent
As the Rogue Class feature

Snappy Comeback
Upon being struck by an enemy in melee combat, a Silver-tongued Devil may spend an immediate action to make a retaliatory strike against the foe that successfully hit him. If the foe fails a reflex saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha mod), they are considered flat-footed to this attack. A Silver-tongued Devil may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Cha +2
This is an untyped bonus to Charisma, stackable with all others, as though it were gained through 8 levels of character advancement.


I agree that +cha to attack at level 1 is a bit odd. Thats why I said use the spirit of the class feature. Here are possible solutions:

1) Allow it under specific circumstances, such as after the enemy misses with an attack or when the character has feinted the enemy, but then allow +cha after a few levels. This should prevent dipping abuse.

2) Stipulate that cha is can be used in place of str as a standard action. This would prevent use from two-weapon fighting, full attacks, and AoOs. This restriction could be lessened at higher levels.

3) Limit how much cha bonus can be used based on level, such as 1 point of cha per class level.

Personally if I were going to make a Cha-fueled melee class, I would be giving it ways to more easily use cha skills in combat. Bluff to feint as a move or swift action, Bluff to avoid AoOs similar to the way acrobatics is used. Intimidate to demoralize as a move or swift action. A way to lessen the penalty for rushed diplomacy. A way to avoid AoOs for reading a scroll in combat when using UMD. You could give level based bonuses to these things the way trapfinding does. A demoralized or feinted enemy takes additional damage equal to your cha mod.

There is a lot of ground you could explore with this type of warrior. I don;t think you need to borrow so many class features.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe a way to use Diplomacy as "aggro" to get an opponent to attack you?

Disguise might be used to trick an opponent into treating you like an ally (not attacking you, maybe used as a flanking buddy, etc.).

Also, Weapon Training should be a fighter-only class ability. It's pretty much its only signature ability. Also, adding Charisma to a bunch of combat features seems like an adequate enough boost to combat.

Also, an un-lawful devil seems kind of odd for a Pathfinder game. Devils are extremely lawful in the Pathfinder 'verse. Try to come up with a good, single-word name for the class. Almost all base classes have single-word names.

Also, a 1st level bonus feat, combined with a full BAB, is "too dippy" for a martial class. So good change up on the re-do. But personally, I like bonus feats at even levels, since PCs get their regular feats at odd levels.

Maybe...

LEVEL ABILITY
1. Force of personality 1, prefered weapons
2. Bonus Feat
3. Sneak Attack +1d6
4. Uncanny Dodge
5. Force of personality 2
6. Bonus Feat
7. Sneak Attack +2d6
8. Improved Uncanny Dodge
9. Force of personality 3
10. Bonus Feat
11. Sneak Attack +3d6
12. Evasion
13. Force of personality 4
14. Bonus Feat
15. Sneak Attack +4d6
16. Improved Evasion
17. Force of personality 5
18. Bonus Feat
19. Sneak Attack +5d6
20. Prefered weapon mastery

Force of personality can be a series of options, like Swift Feint, Swift Intimidate (demoralize), Cha to AC, Cha to damage, Cha to attack rolls, Cha to saves, etc. Maybe with some level requirements, if needed for balance.

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