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Question about grappling - need answer fast!


Rules Questions


So the situatios is this:

The green dragon used fly by attack and grappled a PC and then move again. At the end of its turn the dragon relaese the grapple as a free action, the question is

Is there any way for the Pc to avoid the 150 ft falling? like do not letting the dragon to end the grapple or something?


I would say the PC is allowed to start a grapple, If he succedes then he is not dropped. If he fails then hello ground.

Grand Lodge

Well, the fastest green dragon I've seen only has a fly speed of 250 ft. and takes penalties on fly checks to ascend at an angle greater than 45 degrees, and even on a successful check can only move at half speed going up. I suppose if it flies you over a cliff you're just screwed. Still, getting dropped from any height sucks.

As far as grappling goes, you may only move a target as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple, not as part of the action to initiate it. So without the fly by attack feat, a grappler cannot initiate a grapple, and then use his move action to move both of you. At least to my understanding. Also to my understanding, a fly by attack does not change this. I'm not sure what differences a creature with the grab special attack or the snatch feat would have.

Assuming he was allowed to carry off a grappled target as part of a fly by attack, it's still only moving at half speed, with with no cliff nearby and assuming it only had to move 5' to reach you, the highest he could get is ~60' and most likely less.

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about unless you had readied an action or had something you could do as an immediate action.


Dust Raven wrote:

Well, the fastest green dragon I've seen only has a fly speed of 250 ft. and takes penalties on fly checks to ascend at an angle greater than 45 degrees, and even on a successful check can only move at half speed going up. I suppose if it flies you over a cliff you're just screwed. Still, getting dropped from any height sucks.

As far as grappling goes, you may only move a target as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple, not as part of the action to initiate it. So without the fly by attack feat, a grappler cannot initiate a grapple, and then use his move action to move both of you. At least to my understanding. Also to my understanding, a fly by attack does not change this. I'm not sure what differences a creature with the grab special attack or the snatch feat would have.

Assuming he was allowed to carry off a grappled target as part of a fly by attack, it's still only moving at half speed, with with no cliff nearby and assuming it only had to move 5' to reach you, the highest he could get is ~60' and most likely less.

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about unless you had readied an action or had something you could do as an immediate action.

yes the cliff is there, and the dimished movement have been taken into account.

So it is not so clear that fly by attack lets move+grapple+move?


Well, presuming the movement is legit, if the grappler attempts to move the grapplee into a hazardous location, the grapplee gets a free grapple check at +4 to break the grapple.

The clarity of flyby attack allowing a movement after a grapple isn't in question. It's just not allowed. Grappled creatures can't move like normal. Now, it may be possible through the -20 grapple penalty under Grab. But any special circumstances in how an ungrappled creature interacts with a grappled creature, vis-a-vis movement, aren't covered at all. Consult your GM.


Nicos wrote:

So the situatios is this:

The green dragon used fly by attack and grappled a PC and then move again. At the end of its turn the dragon relaese the grapple as a free action, the question is

Is there any way for the Pc to avoid the 150 ft falling? like do not letting the dragon to end the grapple or something?

ok so there are issues with what happened. if you look at the grappled condition it says " you can not move", and when you grapple someone you gain the grappled condition. so that means the dragon would have to land to grapple you, even if he has grab or improved grapple.

he can then move on his next turn IF he succeeds on a grapple to maintain.

now for your question, no. once you fall you fall. you would need a spell caster or magic item to prevent that damage.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Jupp is right; this could not have legally happened in one turn.

On the other hand, there's a handy new item in Ultimate Equipment for 1000 gp called boots of the cat. You always take minimum falling damage (here, a mere 15 damage), and you always land on your feet.


I am getting confused. grapple is a standar action, if I can grapple and I still have a move action to spend then

"Move

You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus."

i do not say anything about another CMB check.

why the dragon have to wait until the next turn?


Read the paragraph right above that.

PRD wrote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

The actions listed as available to a grappler are as part of the standard action grapple check to maintain. When you spend a standard action to maintain the grapple, you can move yourself and the creature you have grappled as part of that check.


Oh, I see now. then my player had the right answer from the begining u.u

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, I would call lifting a non-flying mammal into the air placing your foe in a hazardous location, similar to trying to move them over a pit. An extra attempt to break the grapple should have happened.


Mergy wrote:
Also, I would call lifting a non-flying mammal into the air placing your foe in a hazardous location, similar to trying to move them over a pit. An extra attempt to break the grapple should have happened.

well, the issue is that if the Pc break the graple he falls. He is basically nex to a cliff.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, but before the fighter gets moved at all he should get the chance to break free. If he breaks free he isn't lifted up at all, so he doesn't fall.


Ok. I think I should just bullrush him at this point :p

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That would likely work much better.

Grand Lodge

Ah yes, I forgot about the "if moved into hazardous area" and over a cliff is certainly hazardous. Free check to break free with a +4 bonus; success means you break free either before movement, or before entering the hazardous area (I'd call it the target's choice).

And yes, if he's right on the edge of the cliff, a bull rush would work much better.

But in my opinion all dragons should have Improved Grapple (and Snatch if huge or huger) just to drop targets to their doom.

Grand Lodge

REF save to grab the Dragon's talon. Followed by STR check by character to hold on against a DEX check for the dragon to shake off the pesky adventurer.


Krome wrote:

REF save to grab the Dragon's talon. Followed by STR check by character to hold on against a DEX check for the dragon to shake off the pesky adventurer.

Yup, this is it, pretty much. A successful reflex save would allow a strength check to hold on. I don't believe it would be an opposed roll, just a DC, though I'm not sure what the DC would be off the top of my head. The dragon doesn't get to try to shake off yet because it already used its attack and move action.


Dust Raven wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about the "if moved into hazardous area" and over a cliff is certainly hazardous. Free check to break free with a +4 bonus; success means you break free either before movement, or before entering the hazardous area (I'd call it the target's choice).

When moving a grappled opponent, those are actually the same thing. You move half your speed and then place the opponent adjacent. They don't actually travel through any spaces along the way.

Now, I could see a GM saying a successful break attempt would put the opponent in the last valid space it could have been moved to, but that's not formally in the rules.


Covering what the previous posters have said I would rule that for flying creature to perform the action described it would need both Flyby attack and either Grab or Snatch.

The sequence would then be:
1. Flying creature starts move towards intended victim
2. Flying creature attempts to grab/snatch at CMB-20 to avoid grappling condition
3. Assuming successful, flying creature attempts to continue movement causing victim to have a free grapple check at CMB +4 to break the grapple before being lifted.
4. Movement completes
5. When the victim is released, I would allow that to be a free grapple check if the victim does not want to be released. If the victim succeeds they are the grappler and the flying creature is grappled.

Note: if the creature was grappled then it could only move at half speed, so if it tried to climb would fall below half speed and need to take a DC10 fly skill check to avoid falling. If it was damaged it would need another check to avoid losing altitude. [I did check the encumbrance rules as well and saw that the light load limit from v3.5 was removed]

In the case of the dragon, it has neither Grab nor Snatch so is not able to grab a victim/prey on the wing like a Wyvern (or real life but not in-game eagle) and must land before it pick something up. Given the note on the fly skill, above, it would also need a fly skill check to take off again as it would be grappled and trying to climb and therefore at quarter speed.

Alternatively, you could rule that the Flyby Attack trumps the normal grapple movement rule, the sequence would then be:
1. Flying creature starts move towards intended victim
2. Flying creature attempts to grapple
3. Assuming successful, flying creature attempts to continue movement at half speed causing victim to have a free grapple check at CMB +4 to break the grapple before being lifted.
4. Flying creature makes a skill check to remain airborne if attempting to climb
4. Movement completes
5. Release/opposed grapple check

Though to me this interpretation devalues Grab and Snatch. Having written it I thought about allowing it for a creature that has Grab or Snatch and does not want to take the -20; but then realised the -20 is a big penalty to avoid the grappled condition and reread the Grab rule. A creature can initiate a grab as a free action as part of a standard attack. The movement part of a grapple is clearly part of a standard action so cannot be done in the same round as another standard attack

This has left me with the following scenarios and rulings:
1. Grab and fly away with an opponent requires Flyby Attack + Grab + CMB-20
2. Attack and fly away requires Flyby Attack
3. Attack + Grapple in round one, grapple and fly in round 2 requires Grab
4. Land and Grapple in round one, grapple and fly in round 2 only requires fly ability


Another quick question:

If the dragon have grappled the Pcs and the Pc fire his gun, it is something tha impede the dragon to make the AoO?


nevermind I found it.

Grand Lodge

MacGurcules wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about the "if moved into hazardous area" and over a cliff is certainly hazardous. Free check to break free with a +4 bonus; success means you break free either before movement, or before entering the hazardous area (I'd call it the target's choice).

When moving a grappled opponent, those are actually the same thing. You move half your speed and then place the opponent adjacent. They don't actually travel through any spaces along the way.

Now, I could see a GM saying a successful break attempt would put the opponent in the last valid space it could have been moved to, but that's not formally in the rules.

Unless I missed where it says one way or the other, I assume the RAW allows for either.

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