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Infernal healing a paladin


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

i'm sure its been covered, i just don't wanna dig. my search fu sucks.

1. when a paladin is unconscious, using the infernal healing wand on her will not violate her paladin code, as she did not willingly accept it / may not ever know it was done to her.

2. while a paladin is conscious, but does not have spellcraft skill, if an ally does not ask her and instead just walks up and hits her with a wand of infernal healing in combat, does this violate her code of conduct? ( i allowed the paladin in question the will/harmless negates save, and as she saved, ruled it didn't violate her oath, but warned the player with the wand that it nearly did ). Was that correct? or is that also a non-violation because the player didn't ask the paladin first? or would that be "pvp-ing" by stripping another player of abilities ( kind of like putting some metal armor on the druid somehow =X)

Andoran *****

Seraphimpunk wrote:

i'm sure its been covered, i just don't wanna dig. my search fu sucks.

1. when a paladin is unconscious, using the infernal healing wand on her will not violate her paladin code, as she did not willingly accept it / may not ever know it was done to her.

2. while a paladin is conscious, but does not have spellcraft skill, if an ally does not ask her and instead just walks up and hits her with a wand of infernal healing in combat, does this violate her code of conduct? ( i allowed the paladin in question the will/harmless negates save, and as she saved, ruled it didn't violate her oath, but warned the player with the wand that it nearly did ). Was that correct? or is that also a non-violation because the player didn't ask the paladin first? or would that be "pvp-ing" by stripping another player of abilities ( kind of like putting some metal armor on the druid somehow =X)

Why would this spell cause a problem with a Paladin’s Oath?

Because it has the Evil descriptor?
Because it makes then detect as evil for a few rounds?
Because it has the word “infernal” in its name?
Because it comes from Cheliax?

It has already been determined that casting an evil spell is not an evil act in PFS. The evil act is what you did with the spell. Albeit, if a Paladin cast the evil spell, that’s a different story.

For minor things like this, where it likely saved the Paladin’s life, I wouldn’t worry overly much about the Paladin’s paladinhood. Lets err on the side of the player.

However, if as a GM, you rule that casting this spell on a Paladin could hurt his code and paladinhood, then it could be construed as PvP and be handled as such.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A paladin's code of conduct can't be violated by anyone but the paladin.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

yeah i thought i'd read somewhere that a paladin willingly accepting Infernal Healing would be in need of an Atonement somewhere.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've read somewhere that if a paladin ever deals lethal rather than nonlethal damage that they'll fall. Doesn't mean it's true. ;)

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

was it on the internet? because everything on the internet is true.

Silver Crusade **** Venture-Lieutenant, Nebraska—Omaha aka Belarias

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Seraphimpunk wrote:
was it on the internet? because everything on the internet is true.

i think i read that somewhere

Andoran *****

Belarias wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
was it on the internet? because everything on the internet is true.
i think i read that somewhere

On the internet.

*

Although Infernal healing does not cause Paladins to loose their abilities and fall from grace, I have yet to see a Paladin take up the offer of healing from my morally ambiguous Bloatmage. It is fun to watch them squirm at the offer though.

Silver Crusade **

Some witch came up behind me and tapped me with a wand during a fight. I assumed it was going to be a beneficial spell of some sort (I'm not trained in spellcraft), but then suddenly I felt the taint in my blood grow stronger and darker as my wounds began to knit. I had a talk with him afterwards.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

"Here, let me rub you with my Asmodeus Stick, it'll make you feel better." Is not the sort of phrase a paladin should nod his head at. If a paladin was regularly and knowingly benefiting from Infernal Healing, I'd say he was violating his vow (and willful ignorance is not a justification either).

That said, while I might make a comment to a player and raise an eyebrow, it's not the sort of thing a GM should write down on a chronicle sheet. That should be reserved for more egregious behaviors.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

BTW, my paladin will choose to not accept infernal Healing, especially from a caster of an evil deity. If someone offers healing not stating the source, and it ends up being infernal healing, he will make sure to let that person know to not ever do it again.

Furthermore (not 100% on this one), I believe you are still allowed to make a Will save even when unconscious to not accept infernal healing. I have done so in the past.

Finally, I think there is a difference of a Paladin accepting infernal healing once or twice to avoid, I dunno, DEATH, versus someone who will every time. I would have a problem with a Paladin that started an adventure "Infernal healing? Yeah no problem broski, hit me up with that stick every time I get hurt"

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thomas, the Tiefling Hero! wrote:
I had a talk with him afterwards.

By talk, I hope you mean a fist to the face.

Grand Lodge ****

CRobledo wrote:
Yeah no problem broski, hit me up with that stick every time I get hurt"

Most of the paladins I've played with talk exactly like this. What is it about this class that attracts bros?

Silver Crusade **

Kyle Baird wrote:
Thomas, the Tiefling Hero! wrote:
I had a talk with him afterwards.
By talk, I hope you mean a fist to the face.

No, I'm more even-keeled than that. I mean, I can understand the efficiency of it, and using it isn't evil in and of itself. I try not to force my own standards on others. He can use dark magic to heal himself, I just personally would rather it not be used on me.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thomas, the Tiefling Hero! wrote:
I try not to force my own standards on others.

What kind of paladin are you?!

Silver Crusade **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would choose death over Infernal Healing any day of the week.

A Paladin's Code does not yield to pragmatism.

***

unless youre healed by my rogue with a ridiculously good bluff.

'that wand i just UMDed on you was a healing wand. a new kind they just invented. it's a stick how could it possibly be evil?'

assuming the paladin has no ranks in spellcraft. might want to put a point into it :)

regardless my stonelord paladin makes it a point to hunt down and kill devils so he has more blood component to heal himself so he cant hunt down more devils. that didn't start until i first played him though.

Spoiler:
because that stupid damned (ha!) imp of the paracountess in first steps REALLY pissed him off

he always carries a 'special' wand with markings on it so he can only be healed with that one. which was made from the blood of that in the spoiler.

Silver Crusade **

Kyle Baird wrote:
Thomas, the Tiefling Hero! wrote:
I try not to force my own standards on others.
What kind of paladin are you?!

I'm not a paladin. I'm a lawful-good cleric of Iomedae. So like, 70% of a paladin. ;)


Try as I might, I couldn't convince the last Paladin of my acquaintence to accept the smoulding touch of Asmodeus' healing claw.

He was most unreasonable, twas only a minor acquiesance, what harm could it possibly do.

*smiles*

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

anger leads to hate...

too bad paladin's don't get Dark Side points.
They certainly feel dirty though ...

Quote:
The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.

I guess losing your paladin-hood would be a long term effect...

I still don't like it.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Don't like what, exactly?

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

1 person marked this as a favorite.

that a paladin can willingly or otherwise, accept being anointed with demon blood and unholy water, and feeling the taint of evil they're radiating for a minute, but that it has no effect on her paladin code / alignment. Its counterintuitive. I feel any deity empowering said paladin or good cleric would want to strip their powers after such an act.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I can see your point if the PC in question prefers the use of infernal healing over cure light wounds and requests it and whatnot. On the other hand, your statement seems to imply that even unknowingly being the target ("willingly or otherwise", you said) constitutes something for which a deity would strip powers. If that's what you meant, then you must think deities are downright stupid, because they'd have to be in order to hold someone accountable for someone else's actions. So I hope you don't actually think that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Really, the problem is just with the spell. The whole point of it and it being an evil act is to tempt people into using evil to help their goals. Classic case of evil tempting good with more powerful things. In this case, it's better than CLW. A spell like that is going to cause issues, especially when the target can sense the evil coursing through their veins. A lot of the balance for it is dependent on RP reasons :)

And a side note, I don't think paladins are necessarily servants of gods in Golarion, unless it's also something PFS specific and I missed it in the Guide. Their powers come partly from their rigid following of their code, as well as something like a consortium of (Lawful?) Good deities.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Oh I've always seen paladins pick one of the LG deities to follow.

Yeah the original post was whether it would suck away the paladin's powers even if she unwittingly accepted it from an ally. But everyone's comments on the thread seem to read as : even if the paladin willingly accepts it, repeatedly, Infernal Healing cannot violate her oath.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm not going back to check, but I thought I read some comments in this thread saying they'd enforce consequences if a paladin's primary healing M.O. was to recieve infernal healing.


Jiggy wrote:
I'm not going back to check, but I thought I read some comments in this thread saying they'd enforce consequences if a paladin's primary healing M.O. was to recieve infernal healing.

I'd give them a pass if they collected the demon's blood themselves...

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Jiggy wrote:
A paladin's code of conduct can't be violated by anyone but the paladin.
Lab_Rat wrote:
Although Infernal healing does not cause Paladins to loose their abilities and fall from grace, I have yet to see a Paladin take up the offer of healing from my morally ambiguous Bloatmage.

Most of the comments are just about never having seen a paladin willingly accept an Infernal Healing. Just Dennis would rule it violates the vow.

Dennis Baker wrote:
If a paladin was regularly and knowingly benefiting from Infernal Healing, I'd say he was violating his vow (and willful ignorance is not a justification either).
Andrew Christianson wrote:

It has already been determined that casting an evil spell is not an evil act in PFS. The evil act is what you did with the spell. Albeit, if a Paladin cast the evil spell, that’s a different story.

For minor things like this, where it likely saved the Paladin’s life, I wouldn’t worry overly much about the Paladin’s paladinhood. Lets err on the side of the player.

However, if as a GM, you rule that casting this spell on a Paladin could hurt his code and paladinhood, then it could be construed as PvP and be handled as such.

to me that sounds like:

a. most players of paladins avoid the topic altogether by asking never to be healed with a wand of infernal healing if they know someone at the table has one.

b. its not an evil act in pathfinder society, so even if they did willingly allow or have it cast on them while unconscious, it wouldn't break their oath.
b1. even if conscious, and not asked, it wouldn't violate their oath. so unless the paladin has words with the infernal healer after the combat to correct their behavior, tacit approval of Infernal Healing won't violate the oath.

c. only if the paladin cast it themselves ( UMD? ) or repeatedly asked for Infernal Healing every game ( hard to judge as some GMs will only witness the character infrequently ), would it be enough of a problem to require an Atonement or something.


Hang on - using Infernal Healing is good..

Demons are evil.

Paladins hate evil.

You need demon blood to cast the spell.

An increase in casting leads to a decrease in demon blood and, presumably, demons.

Less demons is a good thing.

Therefore, *not* using Infernal Healing is actively and obviously an evil act and precursor to a fall.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Indianapolis aka Red-Assassin

Guide PFS-Alignment:

Characters who commit potentially evil acts (casting spells with the Evil descriptor, killing or maiming someone, etc.) while following specific orders from their faction or the Pathfinder Society, do not suffer alignment infractions. These are cases where karma applies to those making the orders, not their tools.

Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately, the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn any player whose character is deviating from his chosen alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must make sure that the player understands the warning and the actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the consequences. We believe a deity would forgive a one-time bad choice as long as the action wasn’t too egregious (such as burning down an orphanage full of children, killing a peasant for no good reason but sport, etc.). Hence, the GM can issue a warning to the player through a “feeling” he receives from his deity, a vision he is given, his conscience talking to him, or some other similar roleplaying event.

If infractions continue in the course of the scenario or sanctioned module, an alignment change may be in order. If the GM deems these continued actions warrant an alignment change, she should note it on the character’s Chronicle sheet at the end of the session in the Conditions Gained box. The character may remove this gained condition through an atonement spell. If the condition is removed, the GM should also note it on the Chronicle sheet.

Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions are deliberate and without motive or provocation, are retired from the campaign. This measure is a last resort; there is more than one way to play a given alignment.

If a character has become wantonly evil as defined above, the GM should escalate the report to the convention coordinator, or the local Venture-Captain or Venture Lieutenant. If they agree with the GM, then the character is deemed wantonly evil and considered removed from the campaign. Again, these measures should be taken as a very last resort.

In the event of a wantonly evil character, record the character as “Dead,” and the person who enters the tracking sheet should check that box as well. If the convention coordinator, Venture-Captain, or Venture-Lieutenant decides the character fits the criteria for being wantonly evil, she will then email the campaign coordinator to advise him of the situation, including the player’s name, Pathfinder Society Number, character name, and email address. She will advise the player of these actions and offer the player the campaign coordinator’s email address so the player may present his case.

The Campaign Coordinator will present all facts to the Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants at large with all names (both player and character) removed. If the majority of Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants feel that the act was wantonly evil and the character is irrevocably evil, then character will remain removed from the campaign. If the majority feel the character should be able to atone for his actions, the campaign coordinator will contact the player and advise him of such. The email may be printed and taken to the next game session so the GM may adjudicate the atonement and document it on the Chronicle sheet of the that game.

Part of the Paladin's class PRD:

Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future...

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.

Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.

A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.

Lawful Good PRD:

Lawful Good: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good combines honor with compassion.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Is an assassin telling us what Good is ?

***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Indianapolis aka Red-Assassin

Never.

I do have a "Gothie" cleric of Zon Kuthion that uses my domain power.

Death's Kiss:
(Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). It does not apply to the Turn Undead or Command Undead feats. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
So far I have ran across 3 Paladins. Each seemed to like me making out with them, my character is happy to simply "use" them.

***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Indianapolis aka Red-Assassin

Seraphimpunk:
I think your instance on the original number 2 was handled well, I don't think many Paladin's would like that spell on them. Warn the player before hand, do not allow another player intentionally cast an un-wanted spell on another player.
It is table GM's call to make, not mine or another player.

In your follow-up post
I think Dennis would be right if he was GM'ing.
I think Andrew would be right if he was GM'ing.

Cheliax ****

I was going to say, wouldn't a paladin be happy that demon blood is being put to good use?

If it's unholy water being used as a reagent, even better! That's one vial of unholy water that won't be splashed on any orphans.

Shadow Lodge ****

I have several characters with infernal healing wands and one character with paladin levels.

I have never seen a paladin willing accept infernal once they knew what it was.

I have however cast infernal healing twice on paladins. Once they were a buddy of mine and I had been chasing them around with the wand all adventure and finally got my chance when he fell unconscious. The other time was near the beginning of an adventure and neither the other PC, nor their player was familiar with the spell. After casting it on them I believe the Paladin nearly threw up and asked me not to do that again. Considering it was the only source of healing we had in the lvl 1 group, it was a notable sacrifice for them to not receive any more healing from it.

I have never encountered Sveden's "Bro-adin" who thinks it's awesome to have infernal healing cast on their paladin. Every single time I've seen it come up the Paladin refuses once they know what is going on, and I've never seen anybody suggest that they should lose their powers for having it cast on them when they didn't know or were unconscious.

TLDR:
I've never seen any abuses but I do think it would be reasonable for a paladin to lose their powers if they consistently violated the spirit of their oath by consistently relying on evil magic to heal them.

Cheliax ***

My paladin is rather uncompromising on infernal healing wands, and ill actually burn my own charges from my CLW wand to try and keep casters with IH wands from using them on anyone in the party while im playing my Paladin.

Shadow Lodge ***

The thing is, the end result is you're healing someone.

It might be evil magic doing it, but if casting an evil spell is not considered an evil act, and the evil act is what you're doing with it, you'd better be infernal healing a demon for the spell to affect your paladin's alignment or break the code.

Healing your party, even with evil magic, even if you're a paladin, is still a good act.

Shadow Lodge ***

Martel Carolingian wrote:

I would choose death over Infernal Healing any day of the week.

A Paladin's Code does not yield to pragmatism.

Not even in the name of peace?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Evil is evil, man.


Avatar-1 wrote:
Martel Carolingian wrote:

I would choose death over Infernal Healing any day of the week.

A Paladin's Code does not yield to pragmatism.

Not even in the name of peace?

No, not even in the face of armageddon. Never compromise.

:-)

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