RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If the spell (for purposes of PFS) is not an evil act, then how can it be considered a violation of code?
Well, I guess let's start at the beginning: evil acts are not the only way to violate the paladin's code. I'm not sure how you missed this, as you quoted the code yourself just a couple posts back. The code prohibits evil actions, and then also a list of specific non-evil actions.
So there are LOTS of actions which are not evil but will still cause a paladin to fall due to violation of code. Therefore, "X is not evil" does not imply "X is not a code violation".
Moving forward from there, well, see my previous post(s) about the "acting honorably" part of the code.
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Yes, yes, "X is not evil" does not imply "X is not a code violation," and the list of dishonorable acts is not all inclusive, but that does not answer the question. Taking the evil out of the spell, leaves just a spell whose use is to simply heal wounds. How is that in any way not acting honorably and therefore a violation?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Taking the evil out of the spell, leaves just a spell whose use is to simply heal wounds. How is that in any way not acting honorably and therefore a violation?
Just because (in PFS) it's not an evil act to cast it, doesn't mean you've "taken the evil out of the spell". It's still a spell based on borrowing unholy powers from beings of pure evil. Although I can accept a GM adjudicating that doing such a thing isn't dishonorable for a paladin, I don't think it's a stretch to make the opposite adjudication either.
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this discussion is hard to adjudicate because fundamentally I agree that using Infernal Healing SHOULD be a code violation, except that PFS provides the loophole
This.
It SHOULD be a violation, but in PFS it's explicitly not evil. So in PFS, ruleswise, it's the opposite. Completely and 100% kosher.
One "should" roleplay the Paladin as being skeevy about receiving it, or even better turning it down completely, but if the player doesn't do this, there is no penalty in PFS.
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What most of the posters in this I hate Paladins thread is that GODS are not stupid they know everything that goes on anywhere near on of THEIR paladins if the devil lover cast it to save their paladin not only would it not be a violation of the paladins code but the Paladins god would look favorably upon the devil lover for saving his paladins butt.
The God in question my make a note of it and tell HIS/HER paladin what this devil lover did and have his paladin have a chat with the devil lover and tell the devil lover in the future to use his emergency cure moderate potion the next time and remind him to mention the fact he did a VERY GOOD act next time he Prays to the BIG A.
Now if the paladin drank a potion of infernal healing knowingly that would piss of his god and he would be disciplined by having his powers taken away until he does penance and gets an atonement spell cast on him.
A Paladin trying to cast Infernal healing would have the spell fail loose their powers and be on their gods bad list for a long time a Paladin would never do this as they know what the consequences of such a dumb act would be when they could have simply just cast a cure spell and get teh same results.
On a side note I have always thought it was lazy on Pazio's part not
to a good version of Infernal healing that Paladins could use. Good outsiders get fast healing so why would a god not grant a spell that gives fast healing to a Paladin.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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I did this to a Paladin last night. All I did was ask how much healing he needed and without telling him what kind of wand it was (after I successfully rolled my UMD) I tapped him, healed him 10 and then told him that he would register as evil.
And for a home game that's an amazing play. For PFS it's a strech unless you handle the consequences within the session.
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Eh, I always mention that I am willing to heal others, it may just smell a bit like brimstone when I do it. Frankly, I would be surprised if a pally didn't realize that it was a wand of infernal healing, considering my pendant has Asmodeus' symbol and my eidolon looks like it should belong in the fires of his domain. I try to keep a potion or three on me in case of those who don't want help from that particular stick.....
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It was a PFS session. The Paladin was unable to object because of a very important fact that made it legal. The Paladin and all of the other Lawful Good aligned characters at the table failed their Sense Motive check against my Rouge's Bluff check telling the party that the healing wand I had was good.
At no point was I rude at the table. The GM running the session approved my action and had no problem with how it was done as it was done in character with the proper roll.
I can also say that even if our Paladin was down, I still would have hit him with the wand to bring him back up as we lacked a dedicated healer. For some reason at the time I was the only person whom had any type of healing item on them, the other being our Wizard whom always used the wand in combat rather than waiting when we were out of combat.
Telling the player that his Paladin register as Evil was done ooc. There was no ill will towards them.
I also feel that it is very important to note that I had one of two choices.
1. I let the person using the 7th level Paladin Pregen die, thus causing his 1st level character to die when it reached 7th level.
or
2. I bluff his Paladin so I could use the Wand on him and keep him from dying.
In your terms, I chose the one that was less "rude".
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It was a PFS session. The Paladin was unable to object because of a very important fact that made it legal.
When I sit down to a table with my paladin I tell everybody (in and out of character) that I do NOT want infernal healing, even to save my life.
I'd be seriously peeved (in and out of character) if that request was ignored. I'd be upset at the GM for allowing what I consider a jerk move and PVP.
It is NOT cute and amusing. Please don't do it
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It was a PFS session. The Paladin was unable to object because of a very important fact that made it legal.When I sit down to a table with my paladin I tell everybody (in and out of character) that I do NOT want infernal healing, even to save my life.
I'd be seriously peeved (in and out of character) if that request was ignored. I'd be upset at the GM for allowing what I consider a jerk move and PVP.
It is NOT cute and amusing. Please don't do it
The player in question made no such request. If they had done so, then I would have easily acquiesced to such a request and not done it. I did what I thought was the right thing to do, by preventing a new player from having their character die when it reached 7th level.
I did what I thought was the right thing to do, by preventing a new player from having their character die when it reached 7th level.
I personally have no problem with what you did, and sounds like the table all had a good time, which is what matters. I will mention to you for the future, that it has been stated other places that social skills (diplomacy, bluff, sense motive etc) are not "supposed" to be used to try to influence other party members. I am not saying this to say you did something wrong exactly, more just be careful in the future with expectations, other players may not appreciate it. (or they might, I dunno)
Anyways, the reason I a quoted the above and am responding, is I wanted to correct this notion that you have. If a player is playing a pregen, and the pregen dies, they do not save the chronicle and than report the character as dead when it reaches the appropriate level. Here is a link to the FAQ that handles this scenario.
If you are playing a pregen and you die permanently, you have 2 options.
1. Apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead (note immediately).
2. Assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Would we have this discussion, if the spell were to only heal 1d6+level? Or give fast healing for 3 turns?
It think the evil bit really is just a bit of flavor, and does not deserve a mechanical downside. I have serious doubts, that this issue would still worry us, if arcane wands of CLW were a thing (or let's just say, everyone can use the ones created by bards), and obviously the full round action casting time is not an appropriate balancing option for this spell (5-10 GP's worth of ruby dust would have been all that is required, especially since you can use unholy water).
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IMHO this is a perfect example of "Expect Table Variation".
As the past 115 posts have shown, there are lots of different opinions on this spell and its effect on Paladins, from people who have never GM'd in PFS to people who have GM'd 200+ games. Rather than getting worked up over it, why don't we all "agree to disagree" and "expect table variation".
(I know arguing about rules is part of our reputation as gamers, but, over a level 1 spell/wand...?)
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Ancient Spirits of Evil, transform this decayed form to Mumm-Ra, the Ever-Living!
You know, that if Cat Folk were legalized, I'd try to make a certain group of fighting kitties.....
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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To fight a greater evil yes. Not to get his costco card.how could accepting the power of evil's help not be a bad thing to a paladin?A: "Power of evil" not seeing it.
B: See paladin code, a Paladin can work with evil characters, and I assume this covers the evil cleric healing him.
The whole issue of healing cost could be removed, by just giving the damn demon blood a cost.
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The whole issue of healing cost could be removed, by just giving the damn demon blood a cost.To fight a greater evil yes. Not to get his costco card.how could accepting the power of evil's help not be a bad thing to a paladin?A: "Power of evil" not seeing it.
B: See paladin code, a Paladin can work with evil characters, and I assume this covers the evil cleric healing him.
What you have is an arcane spell thats healing BETTER than a divine spell of the appropriate level.
Thats .. okish i guesse since the whole evil is both powerful and delicious is a pretty common theme in fantasy, but if you take out the demon blood and the fact that the spell makes you radiate evil then you're left with the question of why an arcane spell is healing better than a divine one.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The whole issue of healing cost could be removed, by just giving the damn demon blood a cost.To fight a greater evil yes. Not to get his costco card.how could accepting the power of evil's help not be a bad thing to a paladin?A: "Power of evil" not seeing it.
B: See paladin code, a Paladin can work with evil characters, and I assume this covers the evil cleric healing him.What you have is an arcane spell thats healing BETTER than a divine spell of the appropriate level.
Thats .. okish i guesse since the whole evil is both powerful and delicious is a pretty common theme in fantasy, but if you take out the demon blood and the fact that the spell makes you radiate evil then you're left with the question of why an arcane spell is healing better than a divine one.
Out of a can, sure it heal better than any divine spell sure. The problem is that is really does not scale properly.
The casting time is a slight downside, but I would argue, that the evil bit really is not a significant downside.
Oh and it is also a cleric/oracle spell, so it is very much a divine spell, I think it would be reasonable to let divine casters cast it without the material component.. and remove the devil blood option.
But really, this might be the spell with the worst scaling in Pathfinder. Of course in dungeon situations where my 1/min per level spells are ticking, the infernal option really isn't a good choice. My Hunter gets quite unhappy without buffs ^^
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4.5 +5= 10.5 vs 10. Its much better out of a can and negligably worse fresh off the grill.
Its a rare group that can keep up minute per level spells. As soon as the DM takes a minute to describe something they're going to say it wears off. Searching the kobolds for gold teeth takes at least that long...
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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4.5 +5= 10.5 vs 10. Its much better out of a can and negligably worse fresh off the grill.
Its a rare group that can keep up minute per level spells. As soon as the DM takes a minute to describe something they're going to say it wears off. Searching the kobolds for gold teeth takes at least that long...
I agree, but it really depends on the scenario/module in question.
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I wish the most efficient and reliable out of combat healing spell didn't have this baggage that causes arguments whenever someone trots out the wand.That baggage is the entire reason that an arcane healing spell was allowed to be the most efficient and reliable out of combat healing spell.
Actually, the baggage was included, as far as I can tell, for two reasons, neither of them what allowed the spell.
1) The spell was originally introduced in the Cheliax book, as an Asmodeus-granted spell, making it original source Evil.
2) And this is the real reason, IMO: It was added to allow Pathfinder to include one of the non-OGL spells that was of great benefit in 3.5, but was SpC not PHB: Lesser Vigor.
And, on research, Lesser Vigor was still a better spell, since it actually had a minor level variable on duration: 10 rounds +1 round/level, max 15 rounds duration, And it did not have the Evil or any other (bogus) definition.
It also explicitly mentioned that it stabilized a dying character, and had a different list of damage it wouldn't heal. And that list actually makes more sense:
The subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hit point per round until the spell ends and automatically becoming stabilized if it begins dying from hit point loss during that time. Lesser vigor does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow or attach lost body parts.
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4.5 +5= 10.5 vs 10. Its much better out of a can and negligably worse fresh off the grill.
Its a rare group that can keep up minute per level spells. As soon as the DM takes a minute to describe something they're going to say it wears off. Searching the kobolds for gold teeth takes at least that long...
Purely speaking about mechanics avoiding any of the evil/code violation part:
Umm, except 4.5+5 = 9.5 not 10.5, which is less than 10. Making an Infernal Healing charge better on average than a CLW cast by a 5th level or higher caster (unless life oracle revelation then specifically a level 5 oracle). Now of course they could probably just cast a higher level cure spell since we're not comparing a charge off of CLW Wand (avg 5.5 max 9) vs a charge of Infernal Healing (10). That being said the time component is a major negative for the Infernal Healing. Generally I prefer cure over Infernal, but I do have characters who will carry both for economic reasons.
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To be a little more technical on the crunch of Infernal Healing:
10 points of healing automatic (sure it takes a minute) is:
CL 1 Better than any cure light (see also wands and potions in PFS unless found on a chronicle sheet)
CL2 Better than or equal to all cure light
CL 3 - Worse 12.5 percent of the time otherwise better or equal for Cure Light
Better or equal to cure mod ~33% of the time
CL 4 75% better or equal to Cure Light - 25% better or equal to cure mod
CL 5 62.5% better or equal to Cure Light (without an oracle revelation this never decreases again) - ~17% better or equal to cure mod - slightly less than 2% of the time equal of better than cure serious.
This of course doesn't take into account any outside factors like Fey Foundling that can increase healing from certain sources.
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Infernal healing is a powerful buff spell, not just a comparable spell to cure light wounds.
It allows a character to automatically stabilize during its duration as it provides magical healing. A caster can put it up at the beginning of a fight, and not need to take an action to stabilize the character during the fight. The character might even recover enough to get out of danger on its own power.
After combat, the duration is very important. It can take minutes to get the healing from infernal healing that repeated charges of cure light wounds will do.
All that said: don't cast infernal healing on my paladin. It violates the 'don't be a jerk' rule.
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Yes, yes, "X is not evil" does not imply "X is not a code violation," and the list of dishonorable acts is not all inclusive, but that does not answer the question. Taking the evil out of the spell, leaves just a spell whose use is to simply heal wounds. How is that in any way not acting honorably and therefore a violation?
[Evil] has not been taken out of the spell.
Simply for the purposes of PFS, casting an [Evil] spell does not constitute an alignment infraction. For the purposes of PFS paperwork (noting evil acts on chronicle sheets), casting an [Evil] spell is not considered an evil act.
But the spell itself is still [Evil], and casting it is still an [Evil] act whether its considered so administratively by PFS or not.
There would be no purpose to putting the part about Codes of Conduct in the FAQ, if the intent of the FAQ was to allow Paladin's to cast [Evil] spells.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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To put it simple you are using the blood of devils to call upon the very powers of hell to strengthen you .... what god or power of good would be cool with that?
You can use a potion of unholy water, so that would be just evil, rather than you know hellish.
Also I regularly use the power of bovine blood in my rare steaks to use the power of wild animals to strengthen me ... so far I have felt no longer lasting alignment changes (just a certain sense of self loathing when I am on a carb free diet)^^
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To put it simple you are using the blood of devils to call upon the very powers of hell to strengthen you .... what god or power of good would be cool with that?You can use a potion of unholy water, so that would be just evil, rather than you know hellish.
Also I regularly use the power of bovine blood in my rare steaks to use the power of wild animals to strengthen me ... so far I have felt no longer lasting alignment changes (just a certain sense of self loathing when I am on a carb free diet)^^
*tap tap tapss pointy stick*
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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*tap tap tapss pointy stick*To put it simple you are using the blood of devils to call upon the very powers of hell to strengthen you .... what god or power of good would be cool with that?You can use a potion of unholy water, so that would be just evil, rather than you know hellish.
Also I regularly use the power of bovine blood in my rare steaks to use the power of wild animals to strengthen me ... so far I have felt no longer lasting alignment changes (just a certain sense of self loathing when I am on a carb free diet)^^
.... I get amazing rates on carnivore feed, and I share with my large cat... she can't eat aspis agent every day. Those are a sometimes food.
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Bovines aren't made of Evil either , Hell is literally made of Lawful Evil'ness.
So, would a spell, let's call it Angelic Healing that requires Angel blood to work, actually be a [Good] spell?
"Yeah, I had to kill me an Angel to get the material components for this awesome spell!"
...
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Bovines aren't made of Evil either , Hell is literally made of Lawful Evil'ness.So, would a spell, let's call it Angelic Healing that requires Angel blood to work, actually be a [Good] spell?
"Yeah, I had to kill me an Angel to get the material components for this awesome spell!"
...
Well how do you feel about some humane healing ? ^^
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Really, how much different is it for a Paladin to cast infernal healing then it would be for him to use a dose of Purple Worm poison he found, for example?
Let's say that the Paladin has a level of Sorcerer, so can actually cast the spell (if he takes it). Similar to a Paladaninja could use poison?
In either case the other class says it is ok to do the 'evil' act but this does not invalidate the point that it is explicitly called out in the paladin's code that they may not ever commit an evil act (poison use is specifically called out, which is why I used this example).
So, I agree... 100%... that a Paladin receiving a casting of infernal healing (as a non-regular occurrence) will not fall... but one casting it would immediately fall.
It is not called out as an issue in the Paladin class, because none of the Paladin's spells are evil. So, while a Sorcerer might cast infernal healing from his spell list, a Paladin never can from his spell list. It is only multi-classing (and perhaps UMD) that even makes it possible!
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Really, how much different is it for a Paladin to cast infernal healing then it would be for him to use a dose of Purple Worm poison he found, for example?
Let's say that the Paladin has a level of Sorcerer, so can actually cast the spell (if he takes it). Similar to a Paladaninja could use poison?
In either case the other class says it is ok to do the 'evil' act but this does not invalidate the point that it is explicitly called out in the paladin's code that they may not ever commit an evil act (poison use is specifically called out, which is why I used this example).
So, I agree... 100%... that a Paladin receiving a casting of infernal healing (as a non-regular occurrence) will not fall... but one casting it would immediately fall.
It is not called out as an issue in the Paladin class, because none of the Paladin's spells are evil. So, while a Sorcerer might cast infernal healing from his spell list, a Paladin never can from his spell list. It is only multi-classing (and perhaps UMD) that even makes it possible!
The Poison = evil bit is decidedly weird, and the reason they added things like Ravages in some PFS books. I think it is just in the code, since it can be seen as unlawful underhanded behavior. But you are still allowed to buff yourself as much as your want ... yeah, weird.
Give it a couple of years, and with enough Warpriest archetypes, this issue will eventually go away.