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Remove Curse VS lycanthropy


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Rules on Lycanthropy wrote:
A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within 3 days of the infecting lycanthrope's attack. Alternatively, consuming a dose of wolfsbane (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 560) gives an afflicted lycanthrope a new Fortitude save to recover from lycanthropy.

Um...what about remove curse? Can that remove the curse with a successful caster level check too? I don't think there is any question about lycanthropic affliction being a curse. It's even listed under the curse section of afflictions.

Also, what about other classes that can cast remove disease and heal? Can a druid, ranger, or oracle really not remove this affliction from a bite victim?

Shadow Lodge

I've been wondering that myself. RAW appears to restrict curing lycanthropy to clerics, but it seems reasonable to let any Remove Disease or Heal with CL 12 remove the affliction.

Remove Curse probably ought to as well. Not sure if leaving it out is deliberate, an accident, or whether it's supposed to be assumed that because lycantropy is a curse Remove Curse is effective.


The affliction (curses) section of the rules in the glossary seems to indicate that the spell, remove curse, would work just fine on (afflicted) lycanthropy.

Does anyone know for sure? This is kind of a big issue in an ongoing game of ours.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For curse and Remove Curse, it's worded "usually", that doesn't mean it's always the case. And no cure are written for Lycanthropy in glossary of CRB. So as it's written in Bestiary, you must apply those of Bestiary.

For Lycanthropy, it's a special case: the cure is specific to this curse and it's only by a cleric level 12+ with a remove disease or heal. Nothing else.

As the Bestiary is more recent than CRB, the rule inside Bestiary supersedes those of CRB anyway.

After... it's up to the GM to "soften his play" or allow players to have an access not too hard to scroll of remove disease lvl 12 or a priest lvl 12.
Because curse of lycanthropy is really a big nasty curse that can kill fastly an entire party. So players must be very very careful...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Also, what about other classes that can cast remove disease and heal? Can a druid, ranger, or oracle really not remove this affliction from a bite victim?

Alas, my search-fu is weak, but I think this topic has been discussed before, and the reply from one of de Devs (might have been JJ) was that Oracles should be able to cure it (after all, when this rule was put into place, there were no Oracles around); but Druids and Rangers were omitted from the list on purpose.


Defraeter wrote:
For curse and Remove Curse, it's worded "usually", that doesn't mean it's always the case.

I think it says "usually" because of the caster level check you need to make against the curse DC. There's no guarantee that you will be able to remove the curse.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You could always try a dose of wolfsbane

Bestiary 1 wrote:
Alternatively, consuming a dose of wolfsbane (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 560) gives an afflicted lycanthrope a new Fortitude save to recover from lycanthropy.


Turkina_B wrote:
You could always try a dose of wolfsbane
Bestiary 1 wrote:
Alternatively, consuming a dose of wolfsbane (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 560) gives an afflicted lycanthrope a new Fortitude save to recover from lycanthropy.

This is where the Druid or Ranger comes in. They should have the Knowledge Nature level high enough to find some wolfsbane growing in any relatively "foliaged" area. If they also have taken some ranks in the Heal skill, which many of the Druids and Rangers at my tables do, they can assist in the new saving throw to remove the disease. With the wolfsbane providing a new save, and the, hopefully, +4 competence bonus coming from the Ranger/Druid's Heal check, they should be able to throw off the affliction. Especially since it doesn't say that the number of doses of wolfsbane one can consume to get a new save are limited. By my reading of the RAW every new dose of wolfsbane consumed grants a new attempt at the save. Likewise, by the RAW of the Heal skill, the character with the Heal ranks can make a new check to aid in the removing of the disease every time the character makes a new save.


Except lycanthropy is not a disease, it's a curse, so the treat disease option of the Heal skill doesn't apply at all. Also, repeated dosing of wolfsbane can kill you.


Ravingdork wrote:
Except lycanthropy is not a disease, it's a curse, so the treat disease option of the Heal skill doesn't apply at all. Also, repeated dosing of wolfsbane can kill you.

If it's not a disease why does the Remove Disease spell get rid of it?

Also, the poison wolfsbane is made from the root, the "herb" wolfsbane is small amounts used by herbalists to treat pain and regulate the heart. Wolfsbane -- I don't think repeated doses in the amount used to treat pain would kill you. I mean, yeah if you've ended up taking ten low doses of the stuff I would probably make you make a save against the poison as well, but not if it were just three to four low doses.

Edit: Also, check here: lycanthrope, it specifically says you catch the afflicted version "like a curse or disease."
Bolding mine.


MendedWall12 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Except lycanthropy is not a disease, it's a curse, so the treat disease option of the Heal skill doesn't apply at all. Also, repeated dosing of wolfsbane can kill you.
If it's not a disease why does the Remove Disease spell get rid of it?

That's what I want to know!

MendedWall12 wrote:
Also, the poison wolfsbane is made from the root, the "herb" wolfsbane is small amounts used by herbalists to treat pain and regulate the heart. Wolfsbane I don't think repeated doses in the amount used to treat pain would kill you. I mean, yeah if you've ended up taking ten low doses of the stuff I would probably make you make a save against the poison as well, but not if it were just three to four low doses.

A single dose of this POISON could potentially kill an 18 Constitution individual with a few poor rolls.

WOLFSBANE
Type poison, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 16
Onset 10 minute; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes
Effect 1d3 Con damage; Cure 1 save


RD, I think what we're dealing with here is a bit of conflicting information from various sources.

Major question: Is lycanthropy a disease or a curse? Or is it even worse, like mummy rot, both a curse and a disease?!

Unless the devs jump in and give a definitive answer, I'd say it's up to each table, and each GM. It clearly says in one place it is "like a disease." It also clearly says a Remove Disease spell (albeit only if cast by a cleric of level 12 or above) can cure it.

Sort of the same issue with the Wolfsbane. One part of the book clearly lists wolfsbane as an ingestion poison, whilst another part says it is used medicinally to treat pain, and regulate the heart (must be a blood thinner/anti-inmflammatory).

Unfortunately, that means, in the face of conflicting info, its up to each table. As I've already stated, at my table wolfsbane and Heal checks get you a new save. What happens at yours will probably be different, just based off of your viewpoint here.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a curse that functions as a disease. But it's not a disease.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.

Only natural lycnthrope can "infect" with the curse.

There is no conflicting information, curse of lycanthropy is stated as a curse in the affliction.
Mummy rot is especially named curse and disease in Bestiary.
"Mummy Rot (Su) Curse and disease—slam;..."

The curses may need some special way to cure them, that's the case of lycanthropy. It's especially written in its description.
The way to remove the Curse of Lycanthropy is strange, but it's the only way (i.e remove disease or heal by a cleric/oracle of 12+).

And Wolfsbane is a poison that has an effect on curse of lycanthropy TOO: you need to prepare some Restoration lesser in case of...

I think it's an inheritance of old DD, and the devs keep it as it was written for this curse remains one of the most dangerous...


I'm of the belief that the text from remove curse is, as it is written, absolute.

Remove Curse excerpt:
Remove curse can remove all curses on an object or a creature. If the target is a creature, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the DC of each curse affecting the target. Success means that the curse is removed.

As you can see, it works on ANY curse. There is no doubt that lycanthropy is a curse (whether it may also be considered a disease is inconsequential). Therefore, if you cast remove curse on someone afflicted with lycanthropy, and your caster level check exceeds 15, you remove the curse.

The information on removing the affliction elsewhere does not contradict the text of remove curse, and remove curse likely wasn't mentioned in the same section because it would be redundant to do so. As the designers and others have said so many times, GMs are thinking people, not robots, so the designers didn't feel the need for mentioning the obvious.

That's what I'm thinking anyways.


Defraeter wrote:
It's a curse that functions as a disease. But it's not a disease.

I'm going to have to argue with you a bit there. If something is something, but functions (very semantic argument here, but we're dealing with a semantic game) as something else, then, insofar as the functioning of something is its reality, it is what it functions as, not what it is named as. If a virus functioned like a bacteria, it would be a bacteria for the purposes of applicable medicine, and would require antibiotics to cure. Viruses aren't bacteria, likewise curses aren't diseases. Which is what makes the seemingly conflicting information so, well... conflicting. If one way to remove the "curse" is by casting a Remove Disease spell, then clearly it must be a disease, otherwise Remove Disease would have no effect.

I completely agree with RD that casting Remove Curse will get rid of it, but it makes you wonder why they put in the specifics for the Remove Disease at all. Remove Disease and Remove Curse are exactly the same spell level (for a cleric); why specifically mention the one at all?


Okay I went back and checked 3.5 and this might be a legacy issue, where some things were included, but others weren't. Since everything is germane to the topic I'm copying and pasting all of it:

3.5 SRD wrote:

"Curing Lycanthropy

An afflicted character who eats a sprig of belladonna (also called wolfsbane) within 1 hour of a lycanthrope’s attack can attempt a DC 20 Fortitude save to shake off the affliction. If a healer administers the herb, use the character’s save bonus or the healer’s Heal modifier, whichever is higher. The character gets only one chance, no matter how much belladonna is consumed. The belladonna must be reasonably fresh (picked within the last week).

However, fresh or not, belladonna is toxic. The character must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. One minute later, the character must succeed on a second DC 13 save or take an additional 2d6 points of Strength damage.

A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher also cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within three days of the lycanthrope’s attack.

The only other way to remove the affliction is to cast remove curse or break enchantment on the character during one of the three days of the full moon. After receiving the spell, the character must succeed on a DC 20 Will save to break the curse (the caster knows if the spell works). If the save fails, the process must be repeated.

Characters undergoing this cure are often kept bound or confined in cages until the cure takes effect.

Only afflicted lycanthropes can be cured of lycanthropy."


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will not "argue" with you, my english is not as good as my own language.

In DD3.5, curse of lycanthropy had "another way" to cure
DD3.5 Curing Lycanthropy " A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher also cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within three days of the lycanthrope’s attack.

The only other way to remove the affliction is to cast remove curse or break enchantment on the character during one of the three days of the full moon. After receiving the spell, the character must succeed on a DC 20 Will save to break the curse (the caster knows if the spell works). If the save fails, the process must be repeated."
DD3.5 Lycanthrope - search Curing Lycanthropy

This "only other way to remove the affliction" has been removed in Pathfinder.

After, you can do as you want if you think this curse is too hard...

EDIT: ninja'ed

Shadow Lodge

Midnight_Angel wrote:
Alas, my search-fu is weak, but I think this topic has been discussed before, and the reply from one of de Devs (might have been JJ) was that Oracles should be able to cure it (after all, when this rule was put into place, there were no Oracles around); but Druids and Rangers were omitted from the list on purpose.

I can see excluding Rangers because they're not full casters, but did they say why they decided to exclude Druids?


*bump*


the disease carries a curse, the disease is curable inside three days, after that the disease is no longer curable, and the curse takes affect, which is NOT removable.

At least that is how I read it. Myth and Fiction carry the same rule essentially, once the beast has turned, it is no loner human and must be killed.

The ONLY exception for this I can find is van helsing, They DO cure him, however upon watching the movie, it does seem they are able to do it within the three day window.....

So no the 'curse' is not removable.

Otherwise, if you think about it, 12th level clerics would just run about casting remove curse on every werecreature and POOF your a normal person again..... too easy.


Seems pretty cut and dried:

Quote:

A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher also cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within three days of the lycanthrope’s attack.

The only other way to remove the affliction is to cast remove curse or break enchantment on the character during one of the three days of the full moon. After receiving the spell, the character must succeed on a DC 20 Will save to break the curse (the caster knows if the spell works). If the save fails, the process must be repeated.


Rynjin, I've only ever seen the first sentence, not the others. Your quote also leaves out the alternative of eating wolfsbane.

Where did you find that?


Wait, my bad.

I looked at the other guy's post wrong, that's 3.5. I was trying to bold some stuff since it seemed like people were ignoring it.

Well carry on then.


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm of the belief that the text from remove curse is, as it is written, absolute.

this is a mistaken assumption, even among common curses such as cursed magic items there are those that a remove curse spell is powerless against (such as Helm of Opposite Alignment and Necklace of Strangulation).


My personal thoughts are that people call it a curse because you become something that most people would not want to be and once you get it you are basically SOL. But in reality it is a disease that is transmited through the saliva of the natural born lycanthrope.


But it's in the Curse section of the rulebook.


Which means it's a curse, not a disease. It may act similar to a disease, but its clearly not a disease.


why would remove disease or heal work within the first three days then?


Pendagast wrote:
why would remove disease or heal work within the first three days then?

I'm thinking it's prolly a disease within the first 3 days (doesn't it have attribute penalties?) but after that it sets in as a curse.


right so then if it requires a 12th level cleric to cast the remove disease in the first three days WHAT if anything can remove the CURSE after the three days has past? You cant tell me anyone with remove curse spell can just poof do it. Why would it be easier AFTER the three days to get rid of it?

Im pretty sure you've got to do something with in three days or your are sunk.

IF not what difficulty are your rolling against to succeed? What CL do you need?


Pendagast wrote:
why would remove disease or heal work within the first three days then?

That's what I want to know.

Rynjin wrote:
I'm thinking it's prolly a disease within the first 3 days (doesn't it have attribute penalties?) but after that it sets in as a curse.

It's never considered a disease. It does not appear under diseases in the Glossary. It it never once specifically referred to as being a disease. It is shown in the curse section of the Glossary and it is referred to as a curse, not only in its very name (Curse of lycanthropy), but elsewhere as well.


Read heading under lycanthropy in bestiary Ravingdork. Thats where we are getting it from.

I think this is one of those hold over copy paste things from 3.5.

Im honestly thinkng it's non removable after 3 days....buts me thinks we need SOME kinda of a ruling on it.


I have read it, that and every other mention of lycanthropy in the game. Remember, I have excellent search-fu.


well then produce results dam-it!


Werewolf Lycanthropy

Type curse, injury; Save Fortitude DC 15 negates, Will DC 15 to avoid effects

Onset the next full moon; Frequency on the night of every full moon or whenever the target is injured

Effect target transforms into a wolf under the GM's control until the next morning

From page 557 of the Core Rule Book is what I believer Raving Dork is referring to when he says its under the curse section of the rules.

Quote:
Curses can be cured through magic, however, usually via spells such as remove curse and break enchantment.

Though I think in the case of Lycanthropy, this is one of the cases where the usual doesn't apply.

Shadow Lodge

Pendagast wrote:

Read heading under lycanthropy in bestiary Ravingdork. Thats where we are getting it from.

I think this is one of those hold over copy paste things from 3.5.

Im honestly thinkng it's non removable after 3 days....buts me thinks we need SOME kinda of a ruling on it.

Well, I'm FAQ-ing it. The presence of specific rules for curing lycanthropy might be meant to exclude the general rules for curses, or they might only be included to give an extra option. Though any 12th level cleric capable of casting Remove Disease should also be able to cast Remove Curse, so I don't know why you'd use the specific cure condition if the general works.

Qadira

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

another question re curing lycanthropes is this...

If it requires a 12th lvl caster in the first 3 days to cast remove disease, does it also make sense that a 5th level+ caster(which is when a cleric can first cast remove curse) be able to deal with the issue after the 3 days are gone

I ask this as it has arisen in a game I am in where due to us screwing up majorly, a couple in the party have contracted it and we are level 7 or 8.

Now the GM is saying that the minimum level is 12th lvl caster to either remove disease or remove curse. GM wins in the end but we had a massive debate about it especially as we cannot find anything to say which way after the initial 3 days (or the wolfsbane for the reroll).

I'm one of those terrible people who like stuff clarified :-/ (I blame working with legislation for that) so.... maybe the ruling could be rewritten to say that a 12th level caster is required to remove disease/curse or heal?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My understanding always was that lycanthropy is impossible cure after those 3 days. It is not a curse in the technical terms of the game (edit: or a curse with special rules if you like that better) and therefore cannot be broken/removed.

It is indeed a disease that after three days has run its course (and therefore cannot be cured anymore) and transformed the creature into a lycanthrope. At this point at my table only a miracle might help.

Qadira

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

From what reading I have gathered, here is what I understand

1 Remove disease/heal(as a min 12th lvl caster) is for the first 3 days
2 wolfbane gives you another save

3 After the first 3 days
a Remove Curse or Break Enchantment (no caster level mentioned). Remove curse is a 3rd lvl spell which is accessible from level 5 for a cleric.

For more roleplay purposes, you can kill the lycanthrope that cursed you, kill the head lycanthrope and find an old witch who is goal in life to destroy lycanthropy to cure you

or

old style exorcism

~~~

So, if it requires a 12th level caster in the first 3 days, do we continue with that pre-req for anything after (which does make it a LOT harder in Carrion Crown if your players' are dumb asses and fail to make nice with the priests/merchants who can help them). Also worth bearing in mind, is that the Curse of Lycanthropy is a DC of 15, no matter what the base animal is.

As lycanthropy is one of those odd rules/holdovers from 3.5, is there a way to more explicitly say how to deal with it AFTER those first 3 days?

Maybe something along the lines of

After the initial 3 day period, only a remove curse or break enchantment(min 12th lvl caster) may remove lycanthropy and this must be cast while the afflicted person is in their hybrid or animal form. Natural lycanthropy may NOT be removed this way, however, Miracle or Wish can remove it from a WILLING character

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