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Ring of Spell Knowledge and Scrolls in PFS


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

51 to 68 of 68 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If they had only limited it to the sorcerer/wizard spell list it would be really obvious. But things get really muddled once you start looking at the witches arcane spell list. So many traditionally divine spells, and I am not just referring to patron spells.

*

I had always interpreted the ring as needing to be "programmed" by a spontaneous arcane caster. Which means a Witch couldn't put a spell into it anyway...but a Bard, Sorcerer or Summoner could.

I do hope the item doesn't get banned. I've had my eye on it for my Sorcerer, programmed with a Cure Moderate Wounds (Bard list) 3rd level spell.

The Bard I usually play with would like to get one with Spectral Hand.

***

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I'm with you AdAstra. I was planning on giving my Dawnflower Dervish Bard shield. Then when I saw the ambiguity when you consider the witch spell list I had to keep chasing the rabbit down his tunnel. Hopefully Mike doesn't decide to ban the item.

Cheliax ****

There are other options in Additional Resources with provisos. Instead of banning it, why not just state that only spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer list need apply?

*

Mergy: Because there are spells on the Bard list (and to a lesser extent the Summoner's list) that are as useful to a Sorcerer as access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list would be to a Bard or Summoner.

*

I too would hate to see this item get banned.

I am constantly amazed at how often my bard is the only arcane spell caster in the groups I play with. The ability to even cast a simple magic missile spell at level when fighting a ghost is a huge help.

Qadira **

There are actually quite a few ways to get arcane spells as a divine caster (or vice versa) using things specifically intended to do this (like the Pathfinder Savant Prestige Class). Domain, patron, mystery, and oath spells similarly sometimes grant access to spells across the normal arcane/divine split. In a home game yes my fire domain cleric could scribe a scroll of fireball as a divine spell. But for PFS that's just too messy. You can use that argument to say that (thanks to the Savant) all spells are both divine and arcane - which clearly isn't the intent. Here's a suggested line to clear it up.

Quote:
For purposes of determining whether a spell is arcane or divine, a spell is only considered to be on a class's spell list if that spell is in the list of spells normally available to all members of that class (usually found in the "Spells" section of a rulebook). For example: cure moderate wounds is on the cleric spell list as it appears in the list of "level 2 cleric spells." Fireball is not on the cleric spell list because that spell is only available to clerics who have chosen the fire domain.

It's not perfect, but hopefully it would clear up any accidental confusion. (You're never going to completely prevent deliberate attempts to poke holes in a statement.)

***

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That would still allow spells such as remove disease and several other traditionally divine spells into the ring through the witch.

I don't think there is anything broken about that, but I'm not convinced that is how the item is intended.

Qadira **

Mahtobedis wrote:

That would still allow spells such as remove disease and several other traditionally divine spells into the ring through the witch.

I don't think there is anything broken about that, but I'm not convinced that is how the item is intended.

That is how it is intended. Just like how cure light wounds is both thanks to the bard's spell list.

***

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Then there is also the question of what those bonus spells are if they do not get counted as arcane or divine. Furthermore if they do not get counted as arcane are they subject to arcane spellfailure from armor?

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Mahtobedis wrote:
Then there is also the question of what those bonus spells are if they do not get counted as arcane or divine. Furthermore if they do not get counted as arcane are they subject to arcane spellfailure from armor?

You're confusing two different issues here I think.

Let's take a fictional spell. Matthew's instant hangover cure It is a cleric 1 spell. The witch gets it if she takes the temperance patrion (yes I'm making that up too.)

If I'm reading the discussion correctly...

Cleric casts it as divine spell.
Witch (with patron) casts it as arcane spell, Sorcerer gets it as a bonus spell from the Carrie Nation bloodline.

Belafon's rule suggestion. wrote:


For purposes of determining whether a spell is arcane or divine, a spell is only considered to be on a class's spell list if that spell is in the list of spells normally available to all members of that class (usually found in the "Spells" section of a rulebook). For example: cure moderate wounds is on the cleric spell list as it appears in the list of "level 2 cleric spells." Fireball is not on the cleric spell list because that spell is only available to clerics who have chosen the fire domain.

Would mean that it's an arcane spell if cast by a witch, but since it's a patron/bloodline only arcane spell, it couldn't be put in the ring.

***

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Based on what Belafon typed, yes.

I think the clarification needed is whether a witch can add patron spells to the ring, and a sorcerer could add bloodline spells. Maybe I should go over to the rules forum for this.

The next question I would then ask, which is PFS relevant, is how to get to those spells. Obviously I could play with the caster and get them to do it. Or fight someone who uses the spell in question. Scrolls are out (thank you Mike for clarifying that point,) and I'm pretty sure that spell casting services are too because that would be in line with how scrolls work, although I cannot find where it says it.

I really hope the ring doesn't get banned even though I will only have myself to blame.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@plops GM hat on.

Based on the 'spells do not last past the scenario' rule. I'd guess that like spell storing blades, you can't keep a 'loaded' ring from scenario to scenario.

Now I'll admit when I run a game, if the scenario gives any lead time "You've been travelling for 5 days and finally arrive at the adventure's starting point" vs "Drendle Dreng drags you out of bed again and teleports you to the start of the scenario." I give the players time (and a reminder) to 'load' their items assuming they were loaded in transit. So if you're in a party with a witch and you two agree to load up the ring with a patron spell 'in transit' then you can have it during the scenario.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

@plops GM hat on.

Based on the 'spells do not last past the scenario' rule. I'd guess that like spell storing blades, you can't keep a 'loaded' ring from scenario to scenario.

Now I'll admit when I run a game, if the scenario gives any lead time "You've been travelling for 5 days and finally arrive at the adventure's starting point" vs "Drendle Dreng drags you out of bed again and teleports you to the start of the scenario." I give the players time (and a reminder) to 'load' their items assuming they were loaded in transit. So if you're in a party with a witch and you two agree to load up the ring with a patron spell 'in transit' then you can have it during the scenario.

This seems like another bad application of that rule. I really think that the rings of spell storing, spell knowledge, and counterspells all deserve to be treated in a way that is fair and obvious and doesn't require campaign rules - that is, document what is in them on chronicles where they load a spell as a condition gained, expend as a condition lost, and game on. It's pretty low overhead and removes one "except this doesn't work that way" or "that's banned in the campaign" from the list of things for new players to be confused by.

*

If it has to be retrained every scenario, this item loses all of its value.

The Pages of Spell Knowledge are 2/3 the price and don't take up a slot, are persistent between adventures, and don't require a DC 20 Spellcraft check to "train".

The only reason this item is useful at all is because it allows access to spells normally outside your spell list.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

<devil's advocate mode on>
IF you have spell X in the ring, do you need to source on hand to use it? What if you don't have source X? Does the ring not function? Can you swap it out for spell Y from sourcebook Z that you do have?
<devil's advocate mode off.>

I agree about the 'conditions gained' aspect. It does become a 'how do we track it' bit.

I have the same issue with equipment. I've yet to play a scenario where we went "Ok, we survived, let me do my shopping so you can sign off on it."

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Matthew Morris wrote:

<devil's advocate mode on>

IF you have spell X in the ring, do you need to source on hand to use it? What if you don't have source X? Does the ring not function? Can you swap it out for spell Y from sourcebook Z that you do have?
<devil's advocate mode off.>

I'd say that if you habitually use a spell through your ring then yes. If you just take the opportunity to put a spell that crops up in the scenario in the ring, then the DM by definition has the spell in front of them if they have done their job. I hope that DMs are smart people who can make a reasonable call when a player uses this pretty cool item. I know that the culture of PFS tends to crack down pretty harshly on players doing unusual things, but still.

Quote:
I agree about the 'conditions gained' aspect. It does become a 'how do we track it' bit.

I think that the non persistence of spell storing items is a very ill-considered rule. Not only does it undermine what vestiges of a persistent character we do have in PFS, but it seems to be starting a trend of more made-up PFS house rules that doesn't trust players to accurately record things. Again, hopefully players and DMs are smart people. That is a discussion for another time though.

***

Michael Brock wrote:
It wasn't a hint. It was advising that since the item is so confusing, as you pointed out (don't know what you can and can't do with it), and is probably confusing for more people, then the item is probably best removed from organized play.

I believe that ultimate equipment is full of confusing magic items, and would likely be vulnerable to the 'Michael Brock Axe'. If you go look at the ultimate equipment errata thread you will see a lot of posts where it isn't necessarily obvious errata, as in the case where portions of tables are missing. It is in items doing completely new things, and not recreating mechanics normally found in the game, so it is hard to figure out what exactly is the intent of the item, or that it is just badly worded and tends to confuse people.

I really like ultimate equipment, but i doubt i will be buying the physical copy until the second printing comes out.

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