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Haramaki vs Bracers of Armor


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It was pointed out by a dashingly handsome friend of mine - there is very little reason I can think of that someone would ever buy a Bracer of Armor +1 for 1000 coin - when you can pick up a Haramaki for 3 gold.

While in Non-PFS games, that is fine, if it floats your boat.

But is there something I am missing about these items, that makes Haramaki balanced for organized play?

While I do recognize that you can upgrade your bracers later, you can do the same with a Masterwork Haramaki.


The upper AC limit for the haramaki is lower (+6) than that of the bracers (+8). In addition, the bracers are automatically ghost touch-friendly by nature of being a force effect. In addition, a haramaki still counts as armor, even if extraordinarily easy to wear; a monk still loses abilities for wearing armor when wearing a haramaki.

Liberty's Edge

Ah - those are very good reasons. I forgot about the "ghost-touch" friendly bit.

Given that I will lean back in my chair, squint my eyes, and just nod my head slowly, while saying "Very well." to this matter.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok...
So I have been wondering this too... John might be on to something about the 1. Extended enhancement ability, and 2. the force effect...

But what bugs me is that this item basically makes padded armor obsolete... its actually just worse in all ways...

Why would any starting caster NOT wear one of these?


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps Subscriber

Because they don't want to? Mine don't. Then they wouldn't be able to see my Wizard in his tacky, modified, Varisian entertainer's outfit.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
David Montgomery wrote:
Because they don't want to? Mine don't. Then they wouldn't be able to see my Wizard in his tacky, modified, Varisian entertainer's outfit.

You sir, play this game correctly :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Wamulus: Because the GM said "no" or because the player said "what? Eastern armor? No, my wizard/sorcerer is from Cheliax and +1 AC isn't a big enough payoff to do something that I can't say makes sense."

Really, on the min-max side, there is no good reason for an arcane caster to not wear a haramaki.

The Exchange

it doesnt really matter when you can just mage armor :D.

but yeah, bracer's of armor one, are completely overshadowed rules wise :D

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Don't forget that bracers of armour can't have special abilities thrown on them. If my wizard wants the determination ability, he's going to have to throw it on a haramaki for 31,153 gp. :)

Liberty's Edge

Is that a PFS thing that they can not have special abilities added?

From the SRD:
Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table: Armor Special Qualities for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oops, I was completely unaware of this! :D I was getting confused with not being able to apply the brawler enhancement.

My mistake.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's power creep. For most classes that were restricted to bracers of armor before the haramaki came out, the haramaki is just far better. Saves a wrist slot too.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

Cheapy wrote:
It's power creep. For most classes that were restricted to bracers of armor before the haramaki came out, the haramaki is just far better. Saves a wrist slot too.

Yet another reason I think we are getting near 3.75 time.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
It's power creep. For most classes that were restricted to bracers of armor before the haramaki came out, the haramaki is just far better. Saves a wrist slot too.

It's not power creep because the bracers of armor have always been overpriced pieces of rubbish. That a new armor out-performs them means nothing. Long before Haramaki, all of my armor-less characters opted for Mage Armor (or a 1000 gp pearl of power or two for the caster to use it on me) over them.

Only goes up to +4, but it is literally impossible to justify the 25,000 gp price of +5 bracers for a +1 vs. all the other AC enhancements in the game. Ring of Protect or Amulet of Nat Armor from +4 to +5 is less. Armor or Shield enhancement (nothing stopping a wizard from using a mithral buckler) from any amount to +5 is cheaper. Dusty Rose Iuon stone s cheaper. Even Dex +4 to Dex +6.... is cheaper! If you're actually anywhere near the expected wealth by level, you'll never actually have the giant mountain of wealth to justify shelling out on the bracers when the humble 1st level spell is giving you +4.

Other than for adding properties, but that just ramps up the cost for the point where the AC bonus of bracers of mage armor is actually surpassing the spell.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

May I add that a +1 ghost touch Haramaki costs more than +2 bracers? It all depends on what your needs are.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Meh. I personally prefer the Silken Ceremonial Armor... ;) More gold, but it's "Coo!"


Cheapy wrote:
It's power creep. For most classes that were restricted to bracers of armor before the haramaki came out, the haramaki is just far better. Saves a wrist slot too.

But what would a full arcane caster wear on his wrists in place of bracers of armor? I could not find anything all that worthwhile.

Still, an enchanted haramaki is a better deal than bracers of armor until you max out its armor bonus.

Grand Lodge

David knott 242 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
It's power creep. For most classes that were restricted to bracers of armor before the haramaki came out, the haramaki is just far better. Saves a wrist slot too.

But what would a full arcane caster wear on his wrists in place of bracers of armor? I could not find anything all that worthwhile.

Still, an enchanted haramaki is a better deal than bracers of armor until you max out its armor bonus.

Spellguard bracers? +2 to cast defensively and roll two and take better for 3 concentration checks?


Haramaki and The other Eastern Armor and Weapons might no try be available based on campaign setting.


Haramaki is just an armored belt. the people in the western hemisphere had something very similar as well.

Silken Ceremonial Armor? that is just simply the act of wearing enough heavy silk to catch a small knife or arrow. and it can be worn over other light and medium armor for looks.


I honestly would choose a Haramaki with Armoured Kilt & Bracers of Armor.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

With the special material darkleaf cloth in Ultimate Equipment, there are even more options: Darkleaf cloth leather (+2 Armor, +8 Max. Dex, 0 Armor Check Penalty, 5% Arcane Spell Failure; 760 gp), darkleaf quilted cloth (+1 Armor, +10 Max. Dex, 0 Armor Check Penalty, 5% Arcane Spell Failure, DR 3/- vs. small ranged piercing weapons; 850 gp), and darkleaf cloth studded leather (+3 Armor, +7 Max. Dex, 0 Armor Check Penalty, 5% Arcane Spell Failure; 775 gp) are upgrades over normal padded, if you don't mind the 5% spell failure chance. The main benefit that bracers of armor have over armor is that they effectively have the ghost touch ability for free; the main benefits armor has over bracers is the higher total AC bonus for the same price, going up to +10 in total enhancement bonus/abilities, can have abilities that add a flat amount (i.e., determination, energy resistance, etc.), and free up the wrist slot (depending on the character, this can be good to indifferent; arcane archers can get a lot of use out of arrowmaster's bracers or greater bracers of archery, a sorcerer diplomancer may eventually want a bracelet of bargaining instead of a circlet of persuasion, longarm bracers are pretty useful in conjunction with spells that require touch attacks, etc.).

Personally, I'm a little disappointed that there aren't better rules for darkwood: What are the properties of darkwood wooden armor? Can you use darkwood instead of hardened leather in a lamellar cuirass or lamellar (leather)?


i cant see why someone cant fluff and armored belt into a different kind of armored belt. role-play is only limited to your imagination.

and no this is not min-maxing, its optimizing, there is a big difference between the two.


I am saying it that a GM might not allow it.

After all I have had plenty of GMs say Core Only. Though most who said that ended up playing favorites and going against it but that is another story.

Though everyone else of them was new.


just out of curiosity, can a piece of armor like the haramaki have a +1 enhancement and then have a bunch of properties on it and then have armor bracers for armor class?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter 2014

Trogdar wrote:
just out of curiosity, can a piece of armor like the haramaki have a +1 enhancement and then have a bunch of properties on it and then have armor bracers for armor class?

Absolutely. That's the best way to do it!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cartmanbeck wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
just out of curiosity, can a piece of armor like the haramaki have a +1 enhancement and then have a bunch of properties on it and then have armor bracers for armor class?
Absolutely. That's the best way to do it!

Nope.

Bracers of Armor wrote:

These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table: Armor Special Qualities for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.


Why do people think you can do that?


I was just curious, I hadn't looked up the bracer write up in a while.


Trogdar wrote:
I was just curious, I hadn't looked up the bracer write up in a while.

It is more of the fact that I had a GM try to pull the Armor alongside Bracers of Armour.

We had to prove it to him in the Hardcopy CRB, the d20pfsrd, and the PRD before he conceded. We had to stop the game while he insisted on rebuilding the NPCs.

Shadow Lodge

It's the same as any other armor. You can't wear a +1 haramaki of many special properties with a +5 fullplate and expect to have a +5 armor bonus with special properties. Bracers of armor is just armor that occupies the wrist slot.


I believe because braces of armor are a force effect they apply to your CMD also, just as deflection and dodge bonus, ect.


KainPen wrote:
I believe because braces of armor are a force effect they apply to your CMD also, just as deflection and dodge bonus, ect.

Nope just AC from what I can tell

Star Voter 2013

KainPen wrote:
I believe because braces of armor are a force effect they apply to your CMD also, just as deflection and dodge bonus, ect.

I do not see the force effect apliying to CMD

"Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD."

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter 2014

Ravingdork wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
just out of curiosity, can a piece of armor like the haramaki have a +1 enhancement and then have a bunch of properties on it and then have armor bracers for armor class?
Absolutely. That's the best way to do it!

Nope.

Bracers of Armor wrote:

These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table: Armor Special Qualities for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

Huh. I definitely didn't know that. Learn something new every day.


KainPen wrote:
I believe because braces of armor are a force effect they apply to your CMD also, just as deflection and dodge bonus, ect.

only against incorporeal attacks


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jupp wrote:
KainPen wrote:
I believe because braces of armor are a force effect they apply to your CMD also, just as deflection and dodge bonus, ect.
only against incorporeal attacks

Armor bonuses NEVER apply to CMD, regardless of source.


Ravingdork wrote:
Jupp wrote:
KainPen wrote:
I believe because braces of armor are a force effect they apply to your CMD also, just as deflection and dodge bonus, ect.
only against incorporeal attacks
Armor bonuses NEVER apply to CMD, regardless of source.

Isn't there an Armour Enchantment that allows you to add it against certain Maneuvers?


Yup, Paizo nerfed the bracers of armor. It's sort of a "monk item", so not too surprising.

In 3E, you could definitely overlap bracers of armor w/ other forms of armor bonus to get AC and special properties.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Abyssian wrote:


Really, on the min-max side, there is no good reason for an arcane caster to not wear a haramaki.

Not every campaign should require it's players to min-max. For the most part, PFS does not. It's a challenging campaign, but usually it's challenges lie in other fronts.

I really would feel rather self conciously cheesy with having my non Tien arcanists wearing a haramaki. Unless they'd been to Tien.


APs, the Module chains, and such don't require Min-Maxing to be effective.

EDIT:

@StreamOfTheSky: Didn't they get F.A.Q.'d to point out that they didn't do to rule interaction.

@LazarX: Celtic War Girdle.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Azaelas Fayth wrote:


@LazarX: Celtic War Girdle.

*rolls on the zombie reaction table*

4.... Blank Stare.


LazarX wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:


@LazarX: Celtic War Girdle.

*rolls on the zombie reaction table*

4.... Blank Stare.

You lost me...

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