Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

fallen angels...blah blah blah...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

We've all heard of fallen angels, but are there any risen devils/demons? Most likely demons I guess because they're chaotic and more likely to change?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Like Good devils or Demons? Its possible, but they would still retain their alignment subtype. Perhaps an example of a Risen devil is Ragathiel. His father was a devil, and his mother a Fire elemental. He rose up to be the leader of the greatest heroes of afterlife in heaven.


Well, take for example erinyes....they used to be angels, now they have the lawful evil subtypes... I'm looking for the opposite.

Andoran

Peris are said to be "descended" from fallen angels, though I'm really not sure what that would mean, exactly, since angels generally don't reproduce sexually. It does seem to imply that fallen angels can be redeemed, however.

It's "easier," in general, to be evil rather than good, since being good has to do with self-sacrifice and self-control. It is likely, therefore, that there are more fallen celestials than risen fiends, but if a being of pure good can turn to evil then I see no reason why a being of pure evil couldn't turn to good. I think that demons, devils, divs, rakshasas, and even qliphoths could all potentially "rise," though it would probably take a very different sort of experience to show each the value of good.

Edit: As for changing alignment subtypes, that would presumably require some kind of transformative trial or experience. Perhaps a repentant devil might gradually make its way toward the top of the mountain of Heaven, "acclimating" itself to the goodness of the plane as it went before finally achieving apotheosis upon reaching the summit and being transformed into a celestial.


I picture a demon killing other demons for self preservation for centuries (neutral) climbs from the abyss to material pane, falls for a powerful fey, wants to protect it and natures newfound love of nature. Then frailty of mortals etc. then ascension to heaven after her death to be with her eternally.


It's a good but usually overlooked plot.


I don't think we have seen ascended devils (or demons) because of the origin of devils in the first place - in most settings (I'm not sure about Golarion, actually) there is some way long ago time in which there is no such thing as a devil. Then one angel (or god), usually Asmodeus, gets thrown out and becomes devil numero uno.

So a "risen" or "ascended" devil would just be an angel again.


In 3.5 there was at least one instance of a succubus paladin (the Silver Skeleton adventure) but I know of no race of ascended infernals that equate to fallen angels such as the Erinyes.

- Gauss

Silver Crusade

Helm of Opposite Alignment?

Stealing from Total Recall, a succubus could voluntarily fail her save against it, and then want to keep her new alignment.

It could also be part of reforming a notorious baddy. Like the TV series Nikita, a criminal could be given a choice between death and failing the save, it's easy enough to check in a controlled environment. You could then use this person to 'volunteer' for Operation: Instant Death. A good background for a PC.

The first Stainless Steel Rat book by Harry Harrisson had the hero take psychotropic drugs to get into the head of the evil woman he was trying to catch. It worked, but he enjoyed his new 'outlook' so much he didn't want to change back, so went to take more of the drug before it wore off. Fortunately, his 'good' self had planted a sleep gas grenade and had planted a post hypnotic suggestion so that he forgot about the grenade. When the sleep gas had worn off, so had the psychotropic drugs.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ishpumalibu wrote:
We've all heard of fallen angels, but are there any risen devils/demons? Most likely demons I guess because they're chaotic and more likely to change?

This topic has been done to death. Plain fact of the matter is, that it is far far far easier for an angel to fall than a demon to rise. Because being Good is that much harder.

That's why you can have an entire species of fallen angels in erinyes, but for a devil or demon to rise is so rare that each is an individual unique, not commmon enough to be a bestiary entry.


the book of exalted deeds had a spell that could turn an evil creature into a good one paying a negative lvl or something like that

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In a campaign I ran years back, an erinyes and succubus allied whilst in the midst of the Blood War and fled the battleground through a planar rift for Waterdeep. They opened up a brothel and spent so much time hiding from their masters and behaving in civilized manners that eventually both their evil alignments toned down to neutral.

While motivation based on self-preservation isn't the same as motivation based on atonement or self-actualization, behavior therapy also teaches that who we are is defined by what we do. So, I'd say a motive of being good, other than for the sake of being good, can still lead to goodness.


I could also see this happening to dragons too.

A Red Dragon becoming a savior of the land, and a Gold Dragon becoming an evil jerkface.


I asked this exact question a while back.

I was looking for a general creature that was an example of an evil outsider turned good in the same way Erinyes and shadow angels are good outsiders turned evil.

the long story-short all the way from JJ is no.. there is no such general creature type representing this although a GM could cirtainly make such a unique individual for a story in the same way there is the rare example of good red dragon or evil gold ones.

Contributor

Ishpumalibu wrote:
We've all heard of fallen angels, but are there any risen devils/demons? Most likely demons I guess because they're chaotic and more likely to change?

Yep! I really like them because of the potential for truly complex NPCs.

Especially when there's the possibility of them drawing some from what they once were - what happens if you harm someone they love? Nothing good happens. I'd call it righteous fury, but it might be something profoundly darker and unique.

I've used risen fiends (from CE/LE/NE to some flavor of neutral, and truly redeemed fiends at some flavor of good) in campaigns of mine, and I've put a few examples into print. Felthis ap Jerran (NG, risen ultroloth) showed up in Dragon in an article on Elysium's gatetown of Ecstasy.

I tend to view the process as incredibly rare, and very, very unique. Since they're literally physically composed of the stuff of their alignment, any substantive change in alignment should likewise be accompanied by a change in physical form (to say nothing of stats). Personally I change their alignment subtype to match their new alignment if they've truly risen (this has been handled multiple different ways in print from 3e to 3.5 till now, sometimes dropping old subtypes to match new alignment, sometimes only keeping the old, sometimes having both).

The risen ultroloth above, when I used him in a campaign, when he finally stepped foot on one of the upper planes, after millennia of abuse from his own kindred, he physically changed form - ultroloth features sublimating away, leaving him looking like a cervidal guardinal, but retaining the color shifting eyes of an ultroloth and some of the grey'ish pallor. Retaining something to remember where he'd come from, but otherwise truly risen (even if it was a truly one in a billion occurrence).

I've also used fiends pretending to be risen before (though they never actually claimed to be, but never contradicted the assumption that they were).

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Ishpumalibu, there's also the demons that belong to Calistria. Not so much with the Good, but still no longer evil. That this means demons live on Elysium makes things very, very interesting.

I do kind of wish the Peri's had a bit more of a fiendish holdover look to them. That's one big reason why I hope more types of peris are introduced. Red-skinned, horned-and-hooved celestials based around penance and such? Yeah, want. Also hoping Ragathiel's appearance has some fiendish features, for many of the same reasons.

Todd Stewart wrote:

The risen ultroloth above, when I used him in a campaign, when he finally stepped foot on one of the upper planes, after millennia of abuse from his own kindred, he physically changed form - ultroloth features sublimating away, leaving him looking like a cervidal guardinal, but retaining the color shifting eyes of an ultroloth and some of the grey'ish pallor. Retaining something to remember where he'd come from, but otherwise truly risen (even if it was a truly one in a billion occurrence).

Imagining a gray-skinned cervidal with no facial features except the eyes now.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ismodai wrote:
the book of exalted deeds had a spell that could turn an evil creature into a good one paying a negative lvl or something like that

This is a Pathfnder thread. That response is for the 3.5 splat section.

Silver Crusade

My PFS paladin (Malachi Silverclaw) worships Ragathiel. I chose him from the Inner Sea World Guide because of what it said about him in there.

You guys seem to know an awful lot more about Ragathiel than I do! How do you know? Could you provide a link that I could click, to find out more about Ragathiel?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ragathiel can be found here, although it's not got many more details.

Also, totally looting this idea


Demon/Devil valuing strength and challenge above all other things decides that destroying good is no challenge because they're all weaklings. Therefore, he decides that if he wants any decent challenge, he needs to fight the other evil beings that would prey on the good of the world.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / fallen angels...blah blah blah... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.