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Blood Money + Wish = almost free wish? Am I reading this right?


Rules Questions

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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money

So, you cast this, you cast wish, and wish has no material component... sure, you take 50 points of strength damage (which does not kill you, only knocks you out), but that's just 20 lesser restoration spells (on average), which is much, much cheaper than a wish. Specifically, 1200 if you purchase it as spellcasting services, 1800 if you have to buy a wand of lesser restoration (and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin).

All of these things, you will note, are much, much less than the 25,000 gp price tag of Wish.

Am I missing something? There are clearly other spells to abuse in this way, this was just the first that came to mind.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

How do you complete the Wish while unconscious?


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Ah! Thank you; that's the limiting component. I wasn't thinking of the strength damage applying before you cast the other spell. You can still use that trick for some other spells (like restoration, if you're a healing witch), but I see it won't work for the truly ridiculous ones.

Phew!

Contributor

You're reading the spell wrong. Note this line: "Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component. Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components."

When your Strength score reaches 0, you can't give up any more Strength and the spell cuts off. You don't get to do deficit spending.

Now, if you found some way to give yourself 50 strength points--which would be tricky since the Tarrasque only has 41--you could do it. Actually you'd need 51 so you're not unconscious. Possibly some combination of Shapechange, buffing spells, and drugs could do this, assuming the GM didn't rule that only natural Strength can be used as Blood Money. I'd certainly rule that myself.


A Synthesist Summoner might be able to get his Str that high...

He can't cast wish, though....

EDIT: Start as an Orc w/ maximized Str, for a 22. Dip Ragechemist 1 and Barbarian 1.

22
+5 inherent (from a manual)
+4 level up (I'll assume you want to pull this off before level 20, otherwise...+5)
+6 enhancement
+6 Ragechemist
+4 Rage

= 47 Str

Still not enough...


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Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
When your Strength score reaches 0, you can't give up any more Strength and the spell cuts off. You don't get to do deficit spending.

Kevin, that would be true in 3.5. In Pathfinder ability damage works differently. They do not lower the ability score directly and there is nothing that prevents suffering more points of ability damage than ability score. Only ability drain affects ability score directly and thus cannot exceed the ability score.

Raisse pointed the actual reason why blood money would not allow casting wish in this way without having 52 points of Strength - ability damage would render the caster unconscious immediately and incapable of casting the following spell.


Well there might be a way:

As Drejk said, you can accumulate more Strength Damage than your ability score.
Also a single Restoration spell cures ALL ability damage (which is what Blood Money inflicts).

So this might work (if the GM allows it):
Cleric prepares to cast Restoration as soon as Wizard falls unconcious.
Wizard casts Blood Money as swift action and well, falls unconcious
Cleric heals all his ability damage
Wizard wakes up and casts the second spell


Quatar wrote:


Cleric prepares to cast Restoration as soon as Wizard falls unconcious.
Wizard casts Blood Money as swift action and well, falls unconcious
Cleric heals all his ability damage
Wizard wakes up and casts the second spell

Casting time on Restoration is 1 min

A readied action by another character to cast a scroll of restoration could work though.

That's RAW though. As a GM I would go with RAI and say that, if you went unconscious, it turns back to blood.


Oh, I knew I was missing something.
But there's a way around it.

Cleric casts Restoration, and since it's a touch spell holds the charge and prepares to touch the wizard once he goes down.
Then as above.


Quatar's method seems quite sound to me.


Well to be honest, if a player would try this in my game I would veto it. I mean 50 Strength damage is like 5 times what most wizards have in that stat, so it's just a bit silly.

But by RAW it should work.


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If I was DM'ing, I would call shenanigans on it. It sounds rule-bending to me.


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StreamOfTheSky wrote:

A Synthesist Summoner might be able to get his Str that high...

He can't cast wish, though....

EDIT: Start as an Orc w/ maximized Str, for a 22. Dip Ragechemist 1 and Barbarian 1.

22
+5 inherent (from a manual)
+4 level up (I'll assume you want to pull this off before level 20, otherwise...+5)
+6 enhancement
+6 Ragechemist
+4 Rage

= 47 Str

Still not enough...

Large size + greater rage = +4 str. 51 str. You're welcome.


Personally, I would probably deal up all the ability damage exceeding ability score twice as additional Constitution damage (e.g. someone with Strength 10 getting 22 points of damage would end with 22 points of Strength damage and 2 points of Constitution damage). One can absorb only so much punishment before dying.

Quote:
A readied action by another character to cast a scroll of restoration could work though.

It would not work. Casting from a scroll still takes the same time as casting normally. Only standard or faster actions can be readied.


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Joanna Swiftblade wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

A Synthesist Summoner might be able to get his Str that high...

He can't cast wish, though....

EDIT: Start as an Orc w/ maximized Str, for a 22. Dip Ragechemist 1 and Barbarian 1.

22
+5 inherent (from a manual)
+4 level up (I'll assume you want to pull this off before level 20, otherwise...+5)
+6 enhancement
+6 Ragechemist
+4 Rage

= 47 Str

Still not enough...

Large size + greater rage = +4 str. 51 str. You're welcome.

Greater rage is Barbarian 11. There is also a small problem of not being able to cast while raging without special abilities.

However, some of the bonuses could be replaced with form of the dragon III (+10 size bonus to Str).

EDIT: +5 inherent bonus to Strength can be replaced with +6 inherent bonus to Strength from the Sorcerer's Abyssal or Orc bloodlines.

So:

Orc with maximized starting Strength of 22.
+6 inherent
+4 level increase
+6 enhancement
+10 size bonus for form of the dragon III
+4 alchemical bonus from the Alchemist's mutagen (1 level of Alchemist required)

Aaand we have a total of 52 Strength. It will hurt as hell when the polymorph and mutagen end so better have someone who'll heal a minimum of 14 points of Strength damage...


So ultimately, unless you have somehow managed to get a strength score of 51, the linch pin of the problem is whether or not unconsciousness ends the spell's effect.


Well, I asked because I'll be DMing a game where this might come up, and I wanted to ensure I had a defense against something truly ridiculous happening.

None of the casters in my game will be getting to 50 strength, and I wouldn't allow the Restoration trick either, so the worst is averted.

However, the witch could still use this trick to easily cast Raise Dead at a small fraction of the price. That's only 10 strength damage (just borrow your buddy's belt of strength if you're under 10).

I'm honestly surprised that such a blatant gold economy violation was allowed in the first place.


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Rudy2 wrote:

Well, I asked because I'll be DMing a game where this might come up, and I wanted to ensure I had a defense against something truly ridiculous happening.

None of the casters in my game will be getting to 50 strength, and I wouldn't allow the Restoration trick either, so the worst is averted.

However, the witch could still use this trick to easily cast Raise Dead at a small fraction of the price. That's only 10 strength damage (just borrow your buddy's belt of strength if you're under 10).

I'm honestly surprised that such a blatant gold economy violation was allowed in the first place.

Eh well, unless using those expensive spells permanently handicaps the characters they were going to get the money back anyway.


Considering it's not from a hardcover source, chances are there won't be many tables that use this spell.

Even if it's used, the spell is quite debilitating to perform something that a few hundred gold pieces can accomplish.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

There are expensive components to those spells for a reason. You are the GM, it is ok for you to say 'no'.


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If you let your game run to level 17 I'm not sure you're allowed to complain about the game breaking.

Once you have level 9 spells there's a neat "infinite" gold trick.

Create a timeless demiplane. Cast Time Stop (which since it is non-instantaneous will have infinite duration) Perform craft (jewelry) checks until you run out of materials. Leave the demiplane. Die of old age if you age at an accelerated rate while under timestop. Have your druid cohort reincarnate you if you died of old age. Sell the crafted items. Buy raw materials. Repeat as needed. If you needed reincarnation use a wish to return to your original species when you're done.

This can't be the only such exploit.


Drejk wrote:
Joanna Swiftblade wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

A Synthesist Summoner might be able to get his Str that high...

He can't cast wish, though....

EDIT: Start as an Orc w/ maximized Str, for a 22. Dip Ragechemist 1 and Barbarian 1.

22
+5 inherent (from a manual)
+4 level up (I'll assume you want to pull this off before level 20, otherwise...+5)
+6 enhancement
+6 Ragechemist
+4 Rage

= 47 Str

Still not enough...

Large size + greater rage = +4 str. 51 str. You're welcome.

Greater rage is Barbarian 11. There is also a small problem of not being able to cast while raging without special abilities.

However, some of the bonuses could be replaced with form of the dragon III (+10 size bonus to Str).

EDIT: +5 inherent bonus to Strength can be replaced with +6 inherent bonus to Strength from the Sorcerer's Abyssal or Orc bloodlines.

So:

Orc with maximized starting Strength of 22.
+6 inherent
+4 level increase
+6 enhancement
+10 size bonus for form of the dragon III
+4 alchemical bonus from the Alchemist's mutagen (1 level of Alchemist required)

Aaand we have a total of 52 Strength. It will hurt as hell when the polymorph and mutagen end so better have someone who'll heal a minimum of 14 points of Strength damage...

You can get up to another +10 morale bonus from the Blood Rage spell.


blope wrote:
There are expensive components to those spells for a reason. You are the GM, it is ok for you to say 'no'.

Yeah, I decided a little bit ago to disallow the use of Blood Money for anything costing 5,000gp or more.


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Starting strength 10 (fairly regular for a sorcerer, best suited thanks to charisma demand for bloodlines & feats for such)
Abyssal Bloodline +6
Orc Bloodline +6
Orc blood, large +6
Belt of strength +6
1/2 Dragon (ring) +8 (draconomicon)
wish +5
Alchemist lvl 1 +4
= 51

In other words, barely.
Yeah, add in that blood rage?
And lets not forget mule cords, wouldnt want to collapse under your own weight just because your strength was drained.

Oh and while at it 1/2 iron golem +14
And were-bear +14
Wish +5
So potentially somewhere at 90

..while large.. and being a ironplated, furry, 1/2 dragon..

Next you need some ioun stone of restoration -all the time- item. And then you are set at cheating the world out of wishes ;)

----------

...and incidentally, with anthaul, those 20'*20'*20' stoneblocks arent really stopping you anymore. You just lift them. And you can probly also take castlewalls apart.. lift a section of the wall and remove a few stones from underneath.. then watch the whole thing collapse

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
Lyarie wrote:
Casting time on Restoration is 1 min

Just FYI, this was reduced to 3 rounds (primarily because Greater Restoration references Lesser for the casting time.


Or a hired priest standing next to you lobbing heal spells?


Better yet, grab the biggest, strongest, "giant". Create a simulacrum and have the simulacrum be willingly possessed with a magic jar.


ikki3520 wrote:

Starting strength 10 (fairly regular for a sorcerer, best suited thanks to charisma demand for bloodlines & feats for such)

Abyssal Bloodline +6
Orc Bloodline +6
Orc blood, large +6
Belt of strength +6
1/2 Dragon (ring) +8 (draconomicon)
wish +5
Alchemist lvl 1 +4
= 51

In other words, barely.
Yeah, add in that blood rage?
And lets not forget mule cords, wouldnt want to collapse under your own weight just because your strength was drained.

Oh and while at it 1/2 iron golem +14
And were-bear +14
Wish +5
So potentially somewhere at 90

..while large.. and being a ironplated, furry, 1/2 dragon..

Next you need some ioun stone of restoration -all the time- item. And then you are set at cheating the world out of wishes ;)

----------

...and incidentally, with anthaul, those 20'*20'*20' stoneblocks arent really stopping you anymore. You just lift them. And you can probly also take castlewalls apart.. lift a section of the wall and remove a few stones from underneath.. then watch the whole thing collapse

Inherent bonuses do not stack. So at the very least the two bloodline bonuses and wish would not stack.


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Mystic Theurge to the rescue! Wiz/Clr/Mystic Theurge

Step -1: Cast Blood Money to avoid the Restoration material costs.
Step 0: Cast Contingency: Restoration - if I suffer any new ability damage after this point.
Step 1: Cast Blood Money - take 52 points of Str damage
Step 1a: Contingency kicks in, immediately and instantly curing all the Str damage
Step 2: Cast Wish for free.
Step 3: Watch as DM suddenly has your deity bless you with no longer having blood, but another substance in your body. Substance functions exactly as blood except is not suitable for Blood Money.


If your players cannot handle the extra potential that is in using every thing ever printet by paizo then decide what books to use from the start and you will be good.
The 5000 rule Sound like a good compromis. Remember if you allow simulacrums then that Spell and blood money have a very unfortunate synergy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rudy2 wrote:
...and only 300 if your DM lets you buy Lesser Restoration wands made by a paladin...

Wands made by paladins aren't cheaper to buy. They can be cheaper to make, but not to buy. The crafting cost is determined by the crafter, but the market price is set, and that's based on the primary class that casts the spell (cleric in this case).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Aasimar (Angelkin) Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple/Champion - 15 point buy

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 15

+2 Str from Angelkin
+4 From Dragon Disciple
+5 Inherent from Manual
+5 Level Up
+6 Enhancement
+10 Form of the Dragon III
+10 Mythic Rank 10

55 Str

And that was just from a cursory look. I could probably ditch the 10 Mythic Tiers if I search hard enough for a way to get another 6 points of Strength. The worst part of it is that a strength based sorcerer/dragon disciple is not a bad way to go. It could actually be an effective character.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, it can be done with enough investment in strength or enough active spells (especially from some paperback sources). Seems like a fairly nitche trick in most campaigns, and the type of thing most Gms would shoot down or associate with some unforeseen difficulties.


Aldarionn wrote:

Aasimar (Angelkin) Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple/Champion - 15 point buy

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 15

+2 Str from Angelkin
+4 From Dragon Disciple
+5 Inherent from Manual
+5 Level Up
+6 Enhancement
+10 Form of the Dragon III
+10 Mythic Rank 10

55 Str

And that was just from a cursory look. I could probably ditch the 10 Mythic Tiers if I search hard enough for a way to get another 6 points of Strength. The worst part of it is that a strength based sorcerer/dragon disciple is not a bad way to go. It could actually be an effective character.

A higher initial strenght and eldritch heritage abyssal in place of manuals for +1 could work here.


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Andoric wrote:

Mystic Theurge to the rescue! Wiz/Clr/Mystic Theurge

Step -1: Cast Blood Money to avoid the Restoration material costs.
Step 0: Cast Contingency: Restoration - if I suffer any new ability damage after this point.
Step 1: Cast Blood Money - take 52 points of Str damage
Step 1a: Contingency kicks in, immediately and instantly curing all the Str damage
Step 2: Cast Wish for free.
Step 3: Watch as DM suddenly has your deity bless you with no longer having blood, but another substance in your body. Substance functions exactly as blood except is not suitable for Blood Money.

Heal is free of cost at the level your doing this sort of thing. Also since no one has posted my list of buffs for Blood Money + Wish guess I'll just set this right here:

9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).

I've actually done some digging for a few other STR buffers, so there's a few more on top of this (alchemical and sacred) if you want to sell your STR down the river more.

Also, Swift Action Blood Money + Readied Action Heal of a Summon, + Contingency Blood Money + Wish lets you make 2 components, which is critical when trying to Permanency Wish'd spells that would otherwise go over Wish's prepaid 10,000 gp limit.


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Note also, you don't have to have 52+ strength. You merely need a willing ally who has 52+ strength. Marionette possession.


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seebs wrote:
Note also, you don't have to have 52+ strength. You merely need a willing ally who has 52+ strength. Marionette possession.

Its 51 STR (25,000 gp in Blood Money is 50 STR + 1 more to not go unconscious, but ya Marionette Possession and its higher leveled version Magic Jar make Blood Money easy money.


ikki3520 wrote:
Create a simulacrum and have the simulacrum be willingly possessed with a magic jar.

That requires the target to have a soul, and I'm not sure Simulacra have one. If they do, then selling their souls would be an easier way to raise the money for a wish.


Atarlost wrote:
If you let your game run to level 17 I'm not sure you're allowed to complain about the game breaking.

It's not so much that you're not allowed to complain. There's just a certain expectation that by that point you can fix things yourself.

Quote:
Create a timeless demiplane. Cast Time Stop (which since it is non-instantaneous will have infinite duration) Perform craft (jewelry) checks until you run out of materials.

Unfortunately there's a perfect GM counter. Describe everything, roll everything, roleplay everything. Players can have as much infinite time as they're willing to suffer through, if they want to spend it doing something boring.

If the player complains, then you're perfectly justified to ask "So, you're character is perfectly fine doing this for the next 20 years, but you broke after 15 minutes? Don't you think that what your character is doing might not be a bit unrealistic then?"


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As a side note, timeless demiplanes are kinda pointless, since time still moves normally in relation to the outside world. The only real benefit is that you could literally have all of the buffs... all of them up at once.

"On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

The way I rule it as a DM is that all STR damage is applied to the innate score. When that reaches zero, the usual effects apply.


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Anzyr wrote:
As a side note, timeless demiplanes are kinda pointless, since time still moves normally in relation to the outside world.

Wouldn't the time stop though mean that it doesn't? Or rather that it does but you're perpetually hyper-accelerated to the point where it appears not to be.


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ikki3520 wrote:
Better yet, grab the biggest, strongest, "giant". Create a simulacrum and have the simulacrum be willingly possessed with a magic jar.

Do simulacra have blood? The spell description says that they are made from ice and snow, only "appearing" to be the original creature. Blood Money can't work if the spell-caster doesn't have blood.

Andoran

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StreamOfTheSky wrote:

A Synthesist Summoner might be able to get his Str that high...

He can't cast wish, though....

EDIT: Start as an Orc w/ maximized Str, for a 22. Dip Ragechemist 1 and Barbarian 1.

22
+5 inherent (from a manual)
+4 level up (I'll assume you want to pull this off before level 20, otherwise...+5)
+6 enhancement
+6 Ragechemist
+4 Rage

= 47 Str

Still not enough...

Don't forget about mythic tiers! 6th Tier anything can get you to 50 and 8th will get you 51 using your method ;)


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Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?


Glutton wrote:
Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?

Oh, my. That plus blood money means a whole lot of spells become effectively free. Although still only with a casting time of 1 standard action.


mkenner wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
As a side note, timeless demiplanes are kinda pointless, since time still moves normally in relation to the outside world.
Wouldn't the time stop though mean that it doesn't? Or rather that it does but you're perpetually hyper-accelerated to the point where it appears not to be.

Hrm, RAW is weird here. The Time Stop has a duration that is measured in apparent rounds, so the spell itself is arguably instantaneous. That said it does have a duration line that lists rounds rather than instantaneous and so yes reading it that way would effectively give you infinite rounds of apparent time. If that is how it works, I suddenly feel the need to switch from a fast time demiplane to a timeless one...

@mkenner - rather then use simulacrums for marionette possesion/magic jar, the better choice is using them on creatures you summon as it does not have those kind of rules issues.

@ Glutton - Yup! Ring of Inner Fortitude is easily one of my favorite rings in the game, it protects you from an absurd number of otherwise very dangerous abilities.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Glutton wrote:
Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?

If you can't take ability damage, the Blood Money spell does not work.


LazarX wrote:
Glutton wrote:
Looks like Ring of Inner Fortitude pays for itself in a hurry then doesn't it?
If you can't take ability damage, the Blood Money spell does not work.

You are taking the ability damage, if you weren't then Ring of Inner Fortitude wouldn't work. You take the damage, then the Ring reduces it. Blood Money doesn't care if you reduce the STR damage your taking it only cares if:

"Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components."

Since the Ring does not make you immune to STR damage, this combination is quite potent.


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Aldarionn wrote:

Aasimar (Angelkin) Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple/Champion - 15 point buy

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 15

+2 Str from Angelkin
+4 From Dragon Disciple
+5 Inherent from Manual
+5 Level Up
+6 Enhancement
+10 Form of the Dragon III
+10 Mythic Rank 10

55 Str

And that was just from a cursory look. I could probably ditch the 10 Mythic Tiers if I search hard enough for a way to get another 6 points of Strength. The worst part of it is that a strength based sorcerer/dragon disciple is not a bad way to go. It could actually be an effective character.

It can actually be a very effective character since there is a mythic power that lets you get a BAB equal to your caster level when polymorphed. Just make sure you have the Magical Knack trait to undo the caster level loss. (I am starting this type of character for a game)

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